Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 166259 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1140 on: January 20, 2012, 09:07:19 PM »
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Offline grayman

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1141 on: January 20, 2012, 09:28:34 PM »
Norma,

Mouth water feel pictures,that is great!
Even I'd like you to conclude:
"The resulting pizza baked almost the same, but the bottom crust was almost the same."
"The two pizzas were very good. "

Since the Chinese lunar new year is around the corner,Jan 23rd,let me refer your last phrase in that post:
"have some wine to celebrate." CHEERS!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1142 on: January 20, 2012, 09:45:46 PM »
Norma,

Mouth water feel pictures,that is great!
Even I'd like you to conclude:
"The resulting pizza baked almost the same, but the bottom crust was almost the same."
"The two pizzas were very good. "

Since the Chinese lunar new year is around the corner,Jan 23rd,let me refer your last phrase in that post:
"have some wine to celebrate." CHEERS!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!


Gray,

I hope you have some wine to celebrate the Chinese lunar new year!  Cheers, and Happy New Year to you too!  :)

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1143 on: January 20, 2012, 10:05:59 PM »
Norma,

It is good that you were able to do a side-by-side comparisons of the two pizzas. I'm not sure that even an MM customer would be able to tell which pizza was which.

What you reported seems to confirm my suspicions on the matters of color, amount and type of molasses, and increased hydration. To get both a light tan color and detectable sweetness, MM has to be using a light molasses molasses, and a fair amount of it. When I worked the numbers for the Steen's, the amount needed to meet the MM Nutrition Facts was quite high--higher even than for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. By any chance, were you able to detect any differences between the flours, such as textural differences that might reflect different protein contents?

Peter

Offline grayman

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1144 on: January 20, 2012, 10:23:54 PM »
Gray,

Norma gave a nice explanation of the situation. To what she said, I will add that you might be able to use bread flour, which I understand you will be purchasing soon. I have been using bread flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to approach the protein content of a high-gluten flour, which is what MM says it uses to make its dough. On the matter of the molasses, I did a quick Google search last night and while it appears that there are molasses products in China, they may be hard to find in stores. Molasses is an essential ingredient to an MM pizza and without which you cannot make such a pizza. If you do find a source of molasses, be sure that it isn't a "blackstrap" molasses. That form of molasses has great flavor but it is not sweet enough to use all by itself to make an MM pizza, and it is also too dark and will make your dough and pizza crust and crumb too dark. A regular molasses might also make an MM clone dough too dark but that is something that is not necessarily bad. The pizza can still taste great. Some people might ever prefer the taste over a real MM pizza.

Another thing to keep in mind is that an MM dough is low in hydration (around 50% and a few percent higher when the water content of molasses and the oil are taken into account). That means that you will need a good mixer. It is not a dough that is easy to prepare and knead by hand, and using an electric hand mixer will not be particularly helpful. I have been using a food processor because the weight of dough balls that I have been making--12 ounces--is too small to use my home stand mixer. When I start going to 11+-ounce dough balls, I will still use my food processor. What Norma uses for larger batches of dough is a commercial mixer that operates much like a home mixer, but much better.

It is possible to make a cold fermented version of an MM clone dough. I have done very little with this approach but I believe Norma has done a test or two using cold fermentation. The MM pizza chain does have some stores in the Atlanta, Georgia area where their commissary is located that use fresh dough balls but most of the MM stores use frozen dough balls from the commissary. That has been the focus of our efforts. If and when we are able to come up with the best version of a frozen MM clone dough, maybe someone will try to come up with a cold fermentation equivalent. I like the frozen dough ball method personally since it allows me to make frozen MM clone dough balls and freeze them until I am ready to use them (usually within fifteen days of making them). In your case, if you are able to make and freeze MM clone dough balls, you can let them defrost in the refrigerator for up to three days and then use them.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your detail explanation and help,as well as Norma too.

I went to the market for the ingredients last afternoon,(since the new year is coming,people will get a long holidays),but I just get back a big bag Golden Statue Bread Flour as I said in my thread. Regarding the other ingredients,I almost could not say out what they are when the market guy ask me while I only know the English name as you guys mention,and I only translate them from my dictionary without knowing the actual thing...For example,the Wheat Germ,the shop owner said there is no supply of this now since it is very cheap(I do not know if she said is real).and the cornmeal,their are some different size,I do not know which to pick.and VWG,they took out some not only four but with many wheat flakes in...and I do not see any molasses maybe,I think I need to do more searching and note to match the right ingredients first.

And I do not have a thought that food processor could mix dough before,is it running too fast?and I see one commercial mixer yesterday,the volume of dough is 5kg,I think I need to try in small batch first.

Regarding the dough holding window is one another issue I always think since it is not possible mix the dough all the time,one time per week would be fine I think.After Norma's explanation,I have a though: We mix two batch(or two different situation dough),one for cold fermentation in cooler with lower yeast level,maybe 0.3%,to supply from the early 3 days(maybe Tuesday to Thursday,when we make the dough on Monday),and another in frozen with 0.6% yeast while defrosted under requirement from Friday to next Monday.Peter,do you think the solution could work?  

There is another question about MM recipe,do you think it is good match to bake at the conveyer air impingement oven?

Sorry that there are so many questions to take you so many time...

Gray
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:02:26 AM by grayman »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1145 on: January 20, 2012, 10:27:02 PM »
Norma,

It is good that you were able to do a side-by-side comparisons of the two pizzas. I'm not sure that even an MM customer would be able to tell which pizza was which.

What you reported seems to confirm my suspicions on the matters of color, amount and type of molasses, and increased hydration. To get both a light tan color and detectable sweetness, MM has to be using a light molasses molasses, and a fair amount of it. When I worked the numbers for the Steen's, the amount needed to meet the MM Nutrition Facts was quite high--higher even than for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. By any chance, were you able to detect any differences between the flours, such as textural differences that might reflect different protein contents?

Peter


Peter,

I donít believe a MM customer would be able to tell the differences in the pizzas either, unless someone told them to try and really taste differences.  I had even forgotten about the exact sweetness the MM crust had until I baked the MM dough tonight.  There is something about the MM crust sweetness that is different than when tasting my MM clone pizza in the rim. 

Good to hear what I reported seems to confirm your suspicions on the matters of color, amount and type of molasses, and increased hydration.  I can now understand that MM has to be using a light molasses and a lot of it to get both the light tan color and detectable sweetness.

To answer your question if there could be any textural differences tasted, although the crumb seemed denser or not as airy, the crumb was softer when a bite was taken, if that makes any sense. 

I have a few more days to decide, but do you think it would be a good idea to defrost the MM dough ball on Monday and reball like I did with the part of the dough ball for today?  I can take a picture of what the frozen dough ball looks like tomorrow if you want to see it first before you make a decision.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1146 on: January 21, 2012, 08:58:33 AM »
Gray,

And I do not have a thought that food processor could mix dough before,is it running too fast?and I see one commercial mixer yesterday,the volume of dough is 5kg,I think I need to try in small batch first.

For small amounts of dough, a food processor is a wonderful machine. Yes, it does run fast but I use the pulse feature so that the dough doesn't overknead or overheat and I also use cold water so that the dough doesn't warm up too much from heat of friction. For the MM dough made in my food processor, a smooth ball doesn't always form because of the low hydration of the dough. So, I just empty the contents of the food processor onto my work surface and form the rest of the dough ball by hand. It is very easy to do. In a commercial setting, you would want to use a commercial mixer that can handle low hydration doughs.

Quote
Regarding the dough holding window is one another issue I always think since it is not possible mix the dough all the time,one time per week would be fine I think.After Norma's explanation,I have a though: We mix two batch(or two different situation dough),one for cold fermentation in cooler with lower yeast level,maybe 0.3%,to supply from the early 3 days(maybe Tuesday to Thursday,when we make the dough on Monday),and another in frozen with 0.6% yeast while defrosted under requirement from Friday to next Monday.Peter,do you think the solution could work?

Yes, I think that that might work. That approach might also help you decide on which method works best for you. However, somewhere along the way you might want to think about what type of pizza works best for you in your drink shop. The MM pizza is a very unique one, and Norma and I have come to like our clones of that pizza but an MM type of pizza might not be what your customers will like. Maybe sometime you can tell us what kind of drinks you sell.
 
Quote
There is another question about MM recipe,do you think it is good match to bake at the conveyer air impingement oven?

Yes, I think it should work. I mentioned this possibility a long time ago in this thread but I never tried using a pizza screen to bake an MM clone. The bottom of the crust is likely to be softer and less chewy and with a different kind of browning, but I think it should be a viable approach.  My practice when reverse engineering and cloning someone else's pizza is to get the clone right first, as exactly as possible. It is only then that I make changes for different applications and timeframes. If you look at the Papa John's thread (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html), you will clearly see that approach. That is what Norma and I and Biz and a few other members are trying to do on this thread. Once we think we have mastered the MM dough, that is when changes are likely to come, including the possible use of pizza screens.

BTW, MM no longer uses wheat germ, or so I was told, although I have seen one MM website that makes reference to wheat germ. Even the franchisee doesn't know what is in the dough. MM at corporate headquarters knows, and we know, but not all franchisees know.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1147 on: January 21, 2012, 09:34:48 AM »
Peter would you help me?  Could you give me an educated (you) guess as to how many gallons of "molasses" that the Atlant MM Comissary uses each week? Thanks. ;D

Gene,

That is a tough question but I will see if I can do some research on that matter. MM is a privately-held company, and there is little written about it publicly (and a lot of it is out of date) from which one might be able to estimate pizza volumes. MM units (there are now about 135 of them in 17 states and the District of Columbia) are very high cost operations (high square footage and above-average buildout costs) compared with most franchised retail food businesses. I believe that this has made it necessary for MM to charge a lot more for its pizzas than its competitors. In fact, the major complaint of reviewers seems to be that the MM pizzas are overpriced, sometimes excessively so. This has caused some customers to order the small pizzas and to consider MM stores as "special occasion" destinations, not regular stops. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that MM's pizza volumes are lower than one might expect, given the unique and different artistic design and themes of the stores, the large number of beer options (a good match for the pizzas), entertainment, appeal to families, and the high energy level, especially at peak times such as weekends. I think I can come reasonably close on the amounts of molasses used for the three pizza sizes that MM offers (10", 13" and 16"). What I would need is pizza volumes.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1148 on: January 21, 2012, 02:20:04 PM »

.... That is a tough question but I will see if I can do some research on that matter.
Peter

I agree, but if anyone could do it, it likely would be you.  I'm heading in that general direction (Hotlanta), and will keep my eye's peeled.  Might even walk up to the door and introduce myself, and ask for a deluxe tour. :-D
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1149 on: January 21, 2012, 05:08:03 PM »
I did take the MM frozen dough ball (Bob sent me) out of the freezer for these two pictures.  I put a coffee filter next to the dough ball, since earlier in this thread we were talking about how a MM dough ball was close to the color of a coffee filter. These two pictures were taken outside with the MM dough ball placed on top of white snow.  The MM dough ball is now back in the freezer.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1150 on: January 21, 2012, 05:08:39 PM »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1151 on: January 21, 2012, 06:18:25 PM »
I did the gluten mass test on KABF today.  I also removed the gluten masses of KASL and Power Flour from the refrigerator.  Both the KASL and Power flour gluten masses are very stretchy and do window pane, but it looks like a little bit of white substance is in the KASL and Power Flour gluten masses today.  I didnít see the white substance yesterday.  My guess is that the white substance is starch, but I donít know.

I wonder if I should do bake tests on the three gluten masses tomorrow, or if I should try to incorporate one of them into a pizza dough for Tuesday.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1152 on: January 21, 2012, 06:19:01 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1153 on: January 21, 2012, 07:23:13 PM »
I've been following this thread for the last few months, and want to take a stab at making an MM pie.  Can anyone recommend the "best" formulation so far?  Or, since this is still under development, is there a particular "test" formulation that I could try and post the results here?  I'm not the most skilled pizza maker, and I have to admit that I get a bit lost in all of the molasses discussion, etc.  But I would be willing to bake up some pies and post the results here if it would help the cause.

Thanks!   :chef: :pizza:

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1154 on: January 21, 2012, 07:58:18 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for running the KABF gluten mass test.

I did the gluten mass test on KABF today.

I assume that the value you got for the KABF gluten mass was 2.64 ounces as shown on the display of your scale. Did you let the dough rest 2 hours again this time or 15 minutes?

Quote
I wonder if I should do bake tests on the three gluten masses tomorrow, or if I should try to incorporate one of them into a pizza dough for Tuesday.

That is up to you. I think the bake test might be a useful one to see if the three gluten balls are of three different sizes and in the right order. I am not sure how to calculate how much gluten to add to another dough (I assume you have a non-MM clone dough in mind) to achieve a particular final value. We are used to increasing the protein content using vital wheat gluten but not actual gluten such as you got from your tests.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 08:20:34 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1155 on: January 21, 2012, 08:03:32 PM »
CDNpielover,

I've been following this thread for the last few months, and want to take a stab at making an MM pie.  Can anyone recommend the "best" formulation so far?  Or, since this is still under development, is there a particular "test" formulation that I could try and post the results here?  I'm not the most skilled pizza maker, and I have to admit that I get a bit lost in all of the molasses discussion, etc.  But I would be willing to bake up some pies and post the results here if it would help the cause.

A critical component of the MM dough is the molasses. Can you tell us what kind of molasses you have available to you in Canada, including the nutritional information if available? Once Norma and I see what you have, I think we should be able to come up with a dough formulation for you to try.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1156 on: January 21, 2012, 08:52:33 PM »

I assume that the value you got for the KABF gluten mass was 2.64 ounces as shown on the display of your scale. Did you let the dough rest 2 hours again this time or 15 minutes?

That is up to you. I think the bake test might be a useful one to see if the three gluten balls are of three different sizes and in the right order. I am not sure how to calculate how much gluten to add to another dough (I assume you have a non-MM clone dough in mind) to achieve a particular final value. We are used to increasing the protein content using vital wheat gluten but not actual gluten such as you got from your tests.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, the value I got from the KABF gluten mass was 2.64 ounces as shown on the display.  I didnít do the gluten mass test 15 minutes after I mixed the KABF flour and water together.  It was about an hour later that I did the gluten mass test.  I kept a lid on the plastic container so the dough ball wouldnít dry out.

I will do the gluten ball bake tests tomorrow, to see if they expand accordingly to their gluten content. I am just worried about how big they might get since the gluten masses do weigh more than the two MM gluten masses I did the bake test on before.

I will wait until another time to try and incorporate a gluten mass into another dough other than a MM dough.  I know it would be a problem to try and calculate how much gluten to add to another formulation.  I know we are used to increasing the protein content using vital wheat gluten, but not actual gluten such as I got from the tests.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1157 on: January 21, 2012, 09:10:11 PM »
Yes, the value I got from the KABF gluten mass was 2.64 ounces as shown on the display.

Norma,

As noted before, my KABF gluten mass test value was 2.68 ounces based on a 9-ounce dough ball. You might also recall that I was concerned because I could not correlate the KABF gluten mass value with your KASL value but could correlate your Power and KASL values. When you reported the 2.64 value for the KABF, which is very close to the value I got, that prompted me to come up with a possible explanation for why those values (my and your KABF values) did not correlate with the KASL. I believe that the answer is that the wet gluten percents are not the same for all types of flour. The wet gluten values I have seen in the past are different for different types of flour. The percents are highest for high-gluten flours and the least for cake flour. The percent for bread flour is below high-gluten flour but above all-purpose flour, and so on. Since a flour with a protein content of around 13.5% is considered a high-gluten flour, that would place the MM dough gluten mass in the high-gluten flour category. So, my speculation that MM may be using a flour with a protein content of around 13.5-13.6% remains intact. As I also mentioned earlier, I have found that I can make the numbers work better if the MM flour has a protein content closer to the Power flour than to the KASL flour.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1158 on: January 21, 2012, 09:26:44 PM »
Norma,

As noted before, my KABF gluten mass test value was 2.68 ounces based on a 9-ounce dough ball. You might also recall that I was concerned because I could not correlate the KABF gluten mass value with your KASL value but could correlate your Power and KASL values. When you reported the 2.64 value for the KABF, which is very close to the value I got, that prompted me to come up with a possible explanation for why those values (my and your KABF values) did not correlate with the KASL. I believe that the answer is that the wet gluten percents are not the same for all types of flour. The wet gluten values I have seen in the past are different for different types of flour. The percents are highest for high-gluten flours and the least for cake flour. The percent for bread flour is below high-gluten flour but above all-purpose flour, and so on. Since a flour with a protein content of around 13.5% is considered a high-gluten flour, that would place the MM dough gluten mass in the high-gluten flour category. So, my speculation that MM may be using a flour with a protein content of around 13.5-13.6% remains intact. As I also mentioned earlier, I have found that I can make the numbers work better if the MM flour has a protein content closer to the Power flour than to the KASL flour.

Peter

Peter,

I do recall that you were concerned because you could not correlate the KABF gluten mass with my KASL gluten mass value, but could correlate my Power Flour and KASL values.  Interesting that you now believe that the answer is the wet gluten percents are not the same for all types of flours.  I never saw any values for wet gluten before this thread.  I have only seen protein percents.  To add to what you just posted, I would have to do the gluten tests over again on the Power Flour and KASL.  I am not sure if I did wash all of the starch or other molecules out of the two flours.  I donít know what that white substance is that now is in the gluten masses of KASL and Power Flour.  Does wet gluten release any water?  It looks like my KASL and Power Flour gluten masses are a little wetter. I didnít reweigh them, but donít think the weigh would change now. I just donít about what happens with wet gluten. 

Good to hear that your speculation that MM may be using a flour with a protein content of around 13.5-13.6% remains intact.  Interesting that you can make the numbers work better if the MM flour has a protein content closer to the Power flour than to the KASL flour.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1159 on: January 22, 2012, 11:22:15 AM »
Last evening I removed the KASL and Power Flour wet gluten masses from the refrigerator, and decided to see if they would be reballed, what would happen.  When trying to reball a few times, the gluten in the gluten masses must have gotten tangled up again, or something else happened, because the gluten masses wanted to tear.  I sure didnít know at that time is gluten masses degrade over a period of a couple days or not, or if they release water or not.  I then put the gluten masses back into the refrigerator to just sit overnight.  After the KABF gluten mass was washed, in the last test, it was at first a rubbery and extensible mass.  After letting it in the refrigerator for a little while it became more manageable and was starting to windowpane nicely.

This morning I removed all 3 gluten masses from the refrigerator.  I donít know if gluten masses need to come up to room temperature before trying a bake test on them, but I thought I would let the gluten masses sit out for 1 Ĺ hours before I tried to shape them into a ball.  When I went to shape the KABF gluten mass it wasnít too bad to shape into a ball, but the KASL and Power Flour masses couldnít be shaped into round balls.  I just did the best I could at shaping them into a ball.  The KABF gluten mass also seemed to develop more water in the plastic bag overnight.

When I put all three gluten masses into the oven the KABF gluten mass starting rising first.  The KASL and Power Flour gluten masses didnít start to rise for awhile.  I donít know if that mean the KASL and Power Flour gluten masses were degrading or not, but it sure seemed like that to me, just from watching how they wanted to rise in the oven.  

The first pictures show the gluten masses on the steel pan with the KABF being the one on the top left, the Power Flour in the middle, and the KASL on the bottom right.

After the baked gluten masses had cooled a little I cut them open with a scissors.  The KABF gluten mass had baked like the MM gluten masses, but the KASL and Power Flour gluten masses looked like bread.  I had baked at the same temperature and for the same amount of time as the MM gluten masses.  I tasted the baked 3 gluten masses and the KABF baked gluten mass had the same nutty taste as the MM baked gluten masses.  The baked KASL and Power Flour gluten masses tasted like bread with no salt added.  The color of the inside (or the crumb, if it could be called a crumb) of the baked gluten masses sure changed color inside.  I guess that was from the baking of the gluten masses.

I believe the bake test of the three gluten masses was a fail, because none of gluten masses did rise like they should have.  I have no real conclusions from this bake tests of the gluten masses, except, if a gluten mass is ever tried to be incorporated in a pizza dough it should be done in about one day or less after doing the gluten mass test.  At least this is what I found out from the experiments.  If anyone else ever does the experiments, I would be interested in seeing their results.  I know these experiments werenít really technical, but they were the best I could do without sophisticated equipment.

If anyone think I went about these experiments wrong, let me know.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 05:45:19 PM by norma427 »
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