Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 146028 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1260 on: January 29, 2012, 10:58:21 PM »

I believe that Norma has samples of malt products from Malt Products Corporation but has not to date used them in MM clone dough formulations. Maybe when this project has been concluded, we can consider some kind of dough formulation that might benefit from the malt products.

Peter

Dan and Peter,

Yes, I do have 3 different samples of malt products.  I don’t plan to use them in the MM thread, but would be interested when this thread has concluded to try them in another dough formulation.

Norma
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1261 on: January 30, 2012, 12:06:59 AM »
At lunch today, within my earshot, 2 groups asked for molasses syrup for their 'hoe cakes'.  The product brought to the table was "syrup". On the bottle, the ingredients were listed as "ribbon cane syrup, corn syrup".
Hoe cakes = Corn bread cooked like pancakes.
In the South, Molasses = Cane/ Sorghum/ or Ribbon cane juice cooked until thick and dark.

In the real word molasses is the by-product of sugar making.  Very thick, not sweet, and something only cows or hogs could love. :-X
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1262 on: January 30, 2012, 08:10:50 AM »
At lunch today, within my earshot, 2 groups asked for molasses syrup for their 'hoe cakes'.  The product brought to the table was "syrup". On the bottle, the ingredients were listed as "ribbon cane syrup, corn syrup".
Hoe cakes = Corn bread cooked like pancakes.
In the South, Molasses = Cane/ Sorghum/ or Ribbon cane juice cooked until thick and dark.

In the real word molasses is the by-product of sugar making.  Very thick, not sweet, and something only cows or hogs could love. :-X


Gene,

You didn’t happen to get the brand name of molasses syrup for the “hoe cakes” did you?  I wonder about all the possibilities about Molasses products.  It is mind boggling to me.

Recently I have been seeing the commercial on TV on the Food Network Channel that goes like this.

It claims, "When it comes to corn sugar or cane sugar, your body doesn't know the difference. Sugar is sugar."

http://www.naturalnews.com/032281_HFCS_sugar.html
http://www.drgangemi.com/2011/05/hfcs/
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/09/16/sugar-sue-high-fructose-corn-syrup-over-name/

I think about this thread every time that commercial comes on TV and chuckle.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1263 on: January 30, 2012, 09:23:02 AM »
In the South, Molasses = Cane/ Sorghum/ or Ribbon cane juice cooked until thick and dark.


Gene,

That is a point that you made way back at Reply 576 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158654.html#msg158654, and seconded by dwightsharpe. At the time, we were struggling to find a molasses product that could provide the requisite sweetness yet not produce a dough and finished crust that were too dark. A pure cane syrup, like the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, seems to come closest to the mark. For example, I can use 18-19% Steen's and the color of the dough will still not be quite as dark as a brown coffee filter. As mentioned recently, Paulette at Domino Specialty Ingredients had no problem considering the Steen's to be a molasses, even though Steen's does not refer to it as such. If MM is using such a product, the question remains where are they getting it, especially if they are using a lot of it?

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1264 on: January 30, 2012, 10:11:30 AM »
I think we can rule out Steen's as the source of "molasses" for MM.

After my last post, I decided to call the Steen's mill in Abbeville, LA (337-893-1654), where I spoke with a Steen's employee about the mill and their products. My first question was whether they sold their 100% Pure Cane Syrup at the foodservice level, in large quantities. The Steen's employee said that they make molasses whenever they have sugar cane or cane juice but do not make the syrup with large users in mind and on a regular basis. It was clear from our discussion that they are not making hundreds of gallons a week with large, regular end users in mind. The largest size containers they use is 55-gallon drums.

When I asked where they get their sugar cane, the employee told me that his boss still does grow some cane but the cane juice they use comes mostly from Baton Rouge. When I mentioned Domino, the employee said that that is their principal supplier of the cane juice that is used at Abbeville. But any sugar cane used at Abbeville is grown in the U.S. None comes from Guatemala or any other place outside of the U.S. But, we already know that Domino gets much of their cane from Guatemala (and over twenty other countries).

I also asked whether their 100% Pure Cane Syrup could be considered a "molasses". His answer was that they make cane syrup and also molasses (their only two products) and they don't call the cane syrup "molasses" and they don't call their molasses cane syrup. When I mentioned that it seemed that in the South all of these kinds of products, and also sorghum, seemed to be called molasses. I gave as an example the cane syrup and corn syrup blend that Gene mentioned. The Steen's employee said he had no knowledge of that practice. He also was not aware that Domino sells a pure cane syrup.

As I noted before, Domino can't be ruled out as a supplier to MM. The Domino name keeps coming up in the conversations I have had with people in the industry. Of course, there are other big dogs out there that sell molasses and sugar products. Norma has gotten samples of some of those products but they do not seem to have the particular combination of sweetness and color characteristics that we have been looking for.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1265 on: January 30, 2012, 10:39:31 AM »
This is only a partial list of who might sell Sorghum Syrups.  Golden Barrel sells Sorghum Syrup http://www.goldenbarrel.com/pancake-waffle-syrups.php so does Barry Farms.  http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/sugars/sorghum.html Northern Brewer http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/nb-sorghum-syrup.html Briess Malt & Ingredients Co. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/GF_Syrups.htm

In this NY time article it says that the only reliable supplier of sorghum is specialty shops like Star Provisions. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/dining/sorghum-a-southern-sweetener-to-remember.html
http://atlanta.eater.com/archives/2011/12/28/times-atlanta.php

I really don’t think MM is using sorghum syrups in their dough, but it an interesting thought.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1266 on: January 30, 2012, 09:49:10 PM »
I gave as an example the cane syrup and corn syrup blend that Gene mentioned. The Steen's employee said he had no knowledge of that practice. Peter

I read the Steen's employee's comment so I went by a "Harvey's" and Piggly Wiggly grocery store today in the same town.  I counted 8 brands of syrup.  7 of the 8 were a blend of corn syrup and sugar cane syrup.  One was a blend of refiners sugar and sugar cane syrup.  The Farmers Biscuit Syrup was by far the darkest of all and is a blend of corn syrup and sugar cane syrup.  The others ranged from almost a golden honey color to a semi dark glass of ice(d) tea.  I don't necessarily think any of these are used at MM, but since I was here anyway....
 I bought the Biscuit Syrup and can compare the color and sweetness to the Brer Rabbit I saw in the pantry.  Peter, would you say that the "molasses" that MM uses is sweeter than pancake syrup?
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1267 on: January 31, 2012, 10:54:20 AM »
Gene,

That is quite an impressive array of sweetener products that you found. As for the ones shown in the photos, the closest one to what we have been investigating in this thread seems to be the Roddenbery's Cane Patch Syrup. I had come across that product in my searches some time ago, but Norma recently brought that product back to my attention when she did some research on companies that made and sold syrups, including molasses, in Georgia. We were thinking that since MM was founded in Georgia, perhaps they used, and were still using, a local source for their molasses. Roddenbery was one of the earliest pioneers in syrups in Georgia. I told Norma that I believe that Roddenbery's was strictly a retail product since I could not find any evidence that they had a foodservice or wholesale division that sold in large quantity. However, since one of your photos showed the Roddenbery label for the Cane Patch Syrup with their telephone number on it, I called Roddenbery this morning. A customer service member confirmed that the Roddenbery Cane Patch Syrup is sold only at retail but that they have been considering selling in larger quantities out of a foodservice or wholesale division. When I asked where their mill or processing facility for the Roddenbery Cane Patch Syrup is located, she said that it is in Saison, NC. I was told that the market for the Roddenbery Cane Patch Syrup is strictly the Southeast part of the country.

With respect to your question on pancake syrups in relation to molasses, one would have to know the particular type of pancake syrup you have in mind to answer your question fully. It's been a while since I have looked at labels of containers of pancake syrup in the supermarkets, since I use only maple syrup for pancakes and the like, but my recollection is that pancake syrups can run from pure maple syrup, to blends including maple syrups, to syrups flavored with real or artificial maple flavors, and syrups based on corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), usually with caramel or something equivalent for color, and sometimes preservatives. HFCS can come in many forms, but generally they are equivalent to sucrose in sweetness and, in some cases, consirably sweeter than sucrose. That means that pancake syrups based on HFCS, and even regular corn syrup, or corn syrup/HFCS blends like Karo, will be sweeter than molasses. To compare molasses with pure maple syrup, I would have to analyze the monosaccharides and disaccharides in those products, and their relative amounts, to determine whether pure maple syrup is sweeter than molasses or not. This morning, I compared my pure maple syrup with the Grandma's Original molasses, and to my palate the maple syrup was sweeter than the Grandma's molasses. Maple syrup has more sucrose than molasses but less fructose, so to be certain I would have to work the numbers. But, to my palate, the pure maple syrup was sweeter.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1268 on: January 31, 2012, 12:36:26 PM »
Peter I agree that it makes no practical sense for MM to rely on some local mom and pop syrup makers.  It seems that it would take a national company to reliably deliver the quantities we are considering.  But I do wonder because of some inconsistencies in reported sweetness.
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1269 on: January 31, 2012, 03:58:43 PM »
Peter I agree that it makes no practical sense for MM to rely on some local mom and pop syrup makers.  It seems that it would take a national company to reliably deliver the quantities we are considering.  But I do wonder because of some inconsistencies in reported sweetness.

Gene,

I'd like to take a stab at the sweetness inconsistency issue, now that I gave gone around the block several times.

First, the molasses used by MM in its commissary can itself vary, with each crop and with each production operation. When I spoke with the nice lady in the Crosby laboratory in Canada, she told me that the Nutrition Facts for molasses change regularly. In Crosby's case, they use certified outside laboratories to test their products and determine what goes onto the Crosby molasses labels. In Crosby's case, it looks like they go through this process a couple of times a year. When I spoke with Paulette at Domino Specialty Ingredients and asked her why the ingredient variations for the Homemaid Molasses were so wide, she said it was because they were getting product from multiple suppliers. So, they use the values from those suppliers in creating the ranges. She also said that there were variations in their molasses products because of crop issues, weather, heat and other such factors. Also, in their case, they get sugar cane from about 23 different countries. Just that factor alone might mean fairly wide variations in the nature and quality of the molasses produced from crops from so many countries.

Second, even with sophisticated machines and test equipment in MM's commissary, a wet and sticky product like molasses can be difficult to work with. I envisioned that MM procures its molasses in very large quantities, if not in bulk (like tractor trailer loads) then in 55-gallon drums. What I don't know is how the molasses is introduced into the dough making process. Is it siphoned off from a large molasses holding container into one or more dough making lines, or is is siphoned off or drawn off into pails by volume rather than by weight and then emptied by workers into the dough making equipment? Either way, I can imagine variations that can affect how much molasses goes into the machines and ends up in the dough balls. Moreover, we already know that there are normal variations in dough ball weights. Once the dough balls are made, we don't know how much molasses is in each dough ball. Hopefully, the percent of molasses is the same.

Third, it seems to me from my experiments with MM clone doughs that the line between achieving the desired degree of sweetness and missing that point is quite narrow. If for example, you need say, 14% of a particular type or brand of molasses to get the desired degree of sweetness, and instead you end up with say, 13%, you might not get that sweetness. In the MM commissary, I doubt that they recalculate the amount of molasses they need for each dough ball run. Unless they test each shipment of molasses they receive, based on whatever quality and other test criteria they use, they might just use the standard amount, whether there are variations in the nature and the quality of the molasses or not.

Fourth, I can envision scenarios at the MM store level where there can be losses in the sugars in the dough to the point where the losses might manifest themselves in a loss of sweetness. For example, if the dough balls are allowed to defrost for too long, or are defrosted at temperatures in their commercial coolers that are too high, or if the dough balls are tempered for too long, or at too high an ambient temperature, or if unused defrosted dough balls are refrozen and redefrosted for future use, or some combination of the foregoing, I can see how at the time of use to make pizzas the finished pizzas might have crusts that lack the normal degree of sweetness. As noted in the last paragraph, it might not take much in the way of loss of "sugars" to miss the desired degree of sweetness.

Fifth, when I reviewed the Yelp reports for several MM store locations, it wasn't as though everyone commented on the matter of sweetness. Whether it was because sweetness is not an issue of concern, or because detectable sweetness is not unusual for a pizza crust (with Papa John's being a good example), or because most MM pizzas actually are not always sweet, I do not know. As I previously noted, there were only a few people who commented on the sweetness of their MM pizzas, and only one of them complained that the crust was too sweet. But there was no hue and cry that the crusts weren't sweet, or sweet enough. Since both Norma and I (and Biz on occasion) detected sweetness in the finished MM crusts we sampled, maybe we came to an erroneous conclusion that sweetness was normal and desirable. Maybe instead they were anomalies and not normal for MM pizzas.

Lastly, different people have different sensitivities to sugar/sweetness. In my case, I use little sugar in my diet and I can detect even small amounts of sweetness in products, so that may be a factor in my case--and for others as well.

As I see it, there are too many places where a value can swing one way or another and with enough swings in one direction or another the result can be MM crusts with or without detectable sweetness. I think we will need a lot more inputs from diners at MM stores to get a clearer and better defined picture on the sweetness issue.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1270 on: February 01, 2012, 11:37:24 AM »
Last night I made another ball using Pete's formulation for a 14" pie with Crosby's Fancy Molasses and KA bread flour (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169280.html#msg169280).  The dough was a nice tan/khaki color.  I forgot to take a picture, but I will when I make this dough on Saturday night.  I do remember that Pete is interested in seeing how the Crosby's Fancy Molasses affects the dough color.  I plan to take the ball out of the freezer, for a 2 day defrost (same as I did last time). 

The major thing I want to change is the cook temperature.  Last time I made this dough, I set the oven at 525 and cooked for about 8.5 minutes (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169772.html#msg169772).  The pie was overcooked, with dry crackery sides and a very brown bottom.  Based on these results, I think I will reduce the oven temp to 500 and check the bottom of the crost for brownness at about 7 minutes, and if it doesn't seem done I can leave it in for a bit longer.  It seems that most of you are cooking between 500 and 525 F; does anyone know off hand what their stone temps are?  At 525 F, my stone temp was about 75 F higher than the oven setting.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1271 on: February 01, 2012, 01:33:09 PM »
CDNpielover,

In my standard electric home oven, my lowest oven rack position is fairly close to the bottom electric coil. As a result, the stone on that rack after an hour of preheat at around 500 degrees F can have a temperature of about 25-50 degrees F higher than the oven temperature. The higher stone temperature is good from the standpoint of getting better oven spring, but it can be somewhat of a negative if there are a lot of toppings because the bottom of the pizza might bake too fast and get a darker bottom crust before the top of the pizza has finished baking. That can result in the dough being somewhat underbaked in parts, and require that your raise the pizza to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat. My standard practice is to check the bottom of the pizza after six minutes and, based on the bottom crust color, decide whether to leave the pizza on the stone longer or move it to a higher oven rack position.

Having played around with lower oven and stone temperatures, I favor the higher temperatures but monitor the bake carefully. For example, recently, for an experiment, I tried placing the stone at the middle oven rack position and preheating it to a temperature of about 500 degrees F--the same as the setting I used to heat the oven. I had to actually open the oven door to allow enough heat to escape to equalize the temperatures. The pizza had a deficiency of oven spring as a result, although part of that may have been because I had a lot of toppings on the pizza. In that case, it would have been better to place the stone on the lowest oven rack position, use a higher stone temperature, and carefullly monitor the bake.

Ovens vary from type to type and from brand to brand, and even from country to country, so you have to learn the way that your particular oven works and any peculiarities it might have. I'm sure you will solve any problems with your oven and MM pizzas with a bit more experience baking that type of pizza.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1272 on: February 01, 2012, 02:48:27 PM »
Pete,

Great, thanks!  I will set the oven to 500 F and check at 6 minutes.  I'll move to the top rack of the crust is looking done but the toppings aren't cooked enough.  Thanks!   :chef:

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1273 on: February 01, 2012, 03:07:08 PM »
Peter, thanks for the thoughts on sweetness issues.  Your theories all sound plausible.
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1274 on: February 01, 2012, 04:41:02 PM »
The first picture is the MM clone dough with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and the MM clone dough made with the Homemaid molasses side by side yesterday. 

The MM clone dough with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses was made first.  It tasted like it always does and the crumb and texture were the same.  The pictures with the veggies are the ones with the Golden Barrel Molasses added.

The second pizza made was the clone MM dough with the Homemaid molasses added.  The pictures are the ones with many blends of cheeses added.  I am stumped that this second MM clone pizza with the Homemaid molasses added did have a sweetness in the crust.  Steve and I both noticed the sweetness, so it just wasn’t me saying the crust had a sweetness to it.  There was a different sweetness though than the clone MM dough with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  The MM clone dough with the Homemaid molasses wasn’t as complex in sweetness as the taste of the pizza with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  I wish someone could explain to me how the clone MM dough with the Homemaid molasses even had any sweetness in the crust.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1275 on: February 01, 2012, 04:42:33 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1276 on: February 01, 2012, 04:43:57 PM »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1277 on: February 01, 2012, 04:45:21 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1278 on: February 01, 2012, 04:46:21 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1279 on: February 01, 2012, 04:47:56 PM »
Norma
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