Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 201315 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1475 on: March 02, 2012, 07:02:52 PM »
Norma,

Yesterday, I did a Google Images search and a Flickr photo search for Mellow Mushroom pizzas. I did the search to see if the bulk of the MM pizzas as represented by photos have large rims with sunken centers, much as I experienced at the MM in Florida (and as shown in the official MM photos used on their websites), or they are just plain puffy, without an overly large and distinct rim. Representative examples of MM pizzas with "sunken" centers would be the ones shown at http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2010/11/26/8847909/0_KosmicKarma.jpg and at http://www.relylocal.com/uploads/pictures/13930/normal_mellow_mushroom_asheville_pizza.jpg. By contrast, a just plain puffy MM pizza would be like the ones shown at http://www.vividideas.net/vopix/mellow5.jpg and at http://www.flickr.com/photos/bossworth/3685461426/. Of course, there are some MM pizzas that fall between the two styles, with an example being shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/53685043@N07/5513139124/. I suppose these variations are to be expected for a chain with many stores across the country and different workers with different levels of experience and skill and maybe with different ovens. But, what I concluded is that most of the MM pizzas shown in the photos seem to fall in the large, puffy category or maybe the middle category. I could not find many photos of MM pizzas that look like the official MM pizza photos.

Where would you place your MM clone pizzas?

Peter  

Peter,

Thanks for all the links to compare what different MM pizzas look like.  I also think the variations of different rim sizes and being puffy or not are from different skill levels and how much time is spent on opening the MM dough.  The pizza makers I saw at DC did form distinct rims first and none of them that I saw could really throw the pies into the air right. Of course, they were fairly new pie makers.  It also might come from how well the dough is fermented and how many days the dough is left to thaw. I thought the pizza I ate at MM in DC had a fairly puffy rim. 

To answer your questions about my MM clone pizzas I would place most of them with fairly puffy rims and being sunken in the middle of the pies.  I don’t know, but think that is because I try to form the rim like I saw the MM workers at DC and also on some videos.  Where would you place my MM clones when you have looked at them, especially the ones using the MM#7 formulation?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1476 on: March 02, 2012, 07:24:49 PM »
I receive an answer from PFM today and they said the protein content for the Power flour is 13.0+/-0.3%

Norma
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1477 on: March 02, 2012, 07:43:19 PM »
Pete and Norma - for what it's worth...

when I've made MM pies, I always seem to the the puffy rim with a more sunken center (like the first 2 photos that Pete linked), as opposed to the entire puffy pie like the ones shown in Pete's last 2 links.  I think this might have to do with the shaping method I used (based on youtube videos), where I made a fairly large rim that further expanded in the oven.  However, I did get a puffy rim even when I tried to avoid it one time (although it was smaller).

Also, I plan to start making MM pies again soon.  I've just been out of the country, and the last couple of pies have been chicago thin, since I was starting to miss that style.  I am gone again next weekend, but next time I make pizza here I will make a MM pie.  I'll try to get to it sooner than later.   :chef:

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1478 on: March 02, 2012, 07:52:21 PM »
CDNpielover,

Thanks for posting how you always seem to get a puffy rim with a sunken center.  Glad to hear you will join us on this thread again!  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1479 on: March 02, 2012, 08:22:26 PM »
To answer your questions about my MM clone pizzas I would place most of them with fairly puffy rims and being sunken in the middle of the pies.  I don’t know, but think that is because I try to form the rim like I saw the MM workers at DC and also on some videos.  Where would you place my MM clones when you have looked at them, especially the ones using the MM#7 formulation?

Norma,

The MM#7 dough formulation was set forth at Reply 834 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161938/topicseen.html#msg161938. Photos showing the MM clone pizzas that you made using the MM#7 dough formulation can be seen at:

Reply 853 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg162446.html#msg162446

Reply 885 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg163390.html#msg163390

Reply 902 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164232.html#msg164232

Reply 905 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164235.html#msg164235

Reply 916 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165134.html#msg165134

Reply 954 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165941.html#msg165941

Reply 971 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166985.html#msg166985

Reply 1031 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168046.html#msg168046

Reply 1189 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169238.html#msg169238

Reply 1275 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg170308.html#msg170308

Reply 1281 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg170316.html#msg170316

Reply 1339 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171125.html#msg171125

Reply 1343 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171129.html#msg171129

Reply 1385 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172085.html#msg172085

Reply 1387 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172088.html#msg172088

Reply 1417 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg173086.html#msg173086

Reply 1461 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174313.html#msg174313

Phew!! I think I found all of your MM#7 clone pizzas. After reviewing the photos, I would say that your MM clone pizzas do have sunken centers for the most part but that the rims appear to be larger than most of the "sunken" MM pizzas I have seen from the photos. Either way, you have done a remarkable job. Can you tell us which of the above MM clone pizzas you liked the best, and why? And do you have any words of wisdom for those who might like to make their own MM clone pizzas?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1480 on: March 02, 2012, 08:27:02 PM »
I received an answer from PFM today and they said the protein content for the Power flour is 13.0+/-0.3%

Norma,

Thank you. I went back to Reply 1470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174615.html#msg174615 and entered the correct protein content for the Power flour.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1481 on: March 02, 2012, 09:53:34 PM »
Norma,

The MM#7 dough formulation was set forth at Reply 834 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161938/topicseen.html#msg161938. Photos showing the MM clone pizzas that you made using the MM#7 dough formulation can be seen at:

Reply 853 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg162446.html#msg162446

Reply 885 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg163390.html#msg163390

Reply 902 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164232.html#msg164232

Reply 905 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164235.html#msg164235

Reply 916 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165134.html#msg165134

Reply 954 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165941.html#msg165941

Reply 971 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166985.html#msg166985

Reply 1031 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168046.html#msg168046

Reply 1189 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169238.html#msg169238

Reply 1275 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg170308.html#msg170308

Reply 1281 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg170316.html#msg170316

Reply 1339 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171125.html#msg171125

Reply 1343 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171129.html#msg171129

Reply 1385 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172085.html#msg172085

Reply 1387 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172088.html#msg172088

Reply 1417 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg173086.html#msg173086

Reply 1461 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174313.html#msg174313

Phew!! I think I found all of your MM#7 clone pizzas. After reviewing the photos, I would say that your MM clone pizzas do have sunken centers for the most part but that the rims appear to be larger than most of the "sunken" MM pizzas I have seen from the photos. Either way, you have done a remarkable job. Can you tell us which of the above MM clone pizzas you liked the best, and why? And do you have any words of wisdom for those who might like to make their own MM clone pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

Lol, I didn’t realize I posted all of those MM clone pizzas with the MM#7 formulation you set-forth for me or other members to try.  It had to take you awhile to find them all.  Thanks for giving your critiques of how my MM clones look compared to MM pizzas. 

I really can’t say I have any favorites out of all the MM clones you linked pictures to, but did like some of the toppings better.  All the crumbs taste about the same in sweetness.  I liked the ones that had a more open crumb.  They seemed to taste better to me.  I don’t have any rhyme or reasoning for that. 

The only thing I can say to any member or guest that wants to make their own MM clone dough and pizza is the dough is easy to mix, the dough is very forgiving, easy to open, and easy to bake.  I think the clones did taste like the MM pizza I had in DC in terms of sweetness in the crust.  I know some members have reported they couldn’t taste sweetness in the crusts at the MM they visited.  I really don’t have any answer for why that was.  I think anyone that has access to Grandma’s Original Molasses, or other formulations posted on this thread can make a MM clone, (if they want) but might have to watch the bottom crust to see how it browns and also if using a home oven they might have to decide what rack position to use.  I also wanted to post that in the last few weeks I have just been brushing the rim of the MM pies I made with the garlic herb infused oil that I use for different pizza products. The blend does include margarine with the oil.  I can’t taste any difference when using my blend instead of real butter or Whirl.  The reason I tried that is because it is already made at market for my other products.   

I wonder when you are going to decide to post some pictures of any MM clones you have tried.  I would be interested in seeing what your MM clones look like.  Do you have any plans to post any pictures of your MM clones?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1482 on: March 02, 2012, 09:58:12 PM »
Norma,

Thank you. I went back to Reply 1470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174615.html#msg174615 and entered the correct protein content for the Power flour.

Peter

Peter,

I see the Power flour and the ADM Gigantic flour are not in the right pecking order.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1483 on: March 03, 2012, 09:50:06 AM »
Norma,

I perhaps should have mentioned in my last post that you did not use just Pendleton Power flour and Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in all of your MM#7 clones, and that you tried other flours and molasses products. Also, I noted that you were very happy with the results from using the MM#6 clone dough formulation, as you noted at Reply 815 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161450.html#msg161450 The two formulations are very similar, however, differing mainly in the amount of salt. I personally have been using less salt than indicated by the MM Nutrition Facts in order to emphasize the sweetness of the crusts of the MM clone pizzas rather than the saltiness.

As for myself, I continue to work behind the scenes trying new MM clone dough formulations and ideas, and continuing my quest for the best MM dough clone formulation, subject to the limitations I have with respect to flours, small pizza size (10"), and my standard electric home oven. I am now up to 42 printouts of MM clone dough formulations from the expanded dough calculating tool. The MM#6 and MM#7 formulations mentioned above are worthy, but they don't quite match up with all of the MM numbers, especially the carbohydrate quantities (too low). I actually believe that the MM clone dough formulations I created for CDNpieloever come closer to the MM numbers, mainly because of the large amount of the Crosby's Fancy Molasses that he can use without overly darkening the dough, yet providing lots of carbohydrates. In this latter vein, I have also been creating a chart in which I am converting the "sugars" for the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and all of the liquid molasses products that have been tested or examined in this thread into grams of sugars per 100 grams of the product in question. This will allow me to put the products in a better pecking order, and is consistent with the way that the molasses industry recites those numbers. The results that CDNpielover achieves with his next MM clone dough with 15% Crosby's Fancy Molasses should be a real help.

Looking back and reflecting on what we have done, this thread is quite extraordinary. In what other thread will you find people conducting hydration bake tests, gluten mass tests, baking and reusing gluten balls, conducting salinity/sweetness tests, shipping real MM dough balls across the country for testing, using paint and carpet samples and tan coffee filters to match colors, learning more about veganism and vegetarianism, carrying on discussions and/or email exchanges with MM employees and industry experts on molasses, malt products, other sweeteners, flours and raw/toasted/pulverized wheat germ products, scouring supermarket shelves in Georgia (Gene) to find syrups to analyze in respect of MM's activities, collecting and analyzing spec sheets galore, scrutinizing Nutrition Facts and coming up with all kinds of calculations (including total water content, "adjusted" hydration, "effective" hydration, "sucrose equivalency" and carbohydrate numbers), testing not only molasses products but also pure cane syrup, honey, sorghum, barley malt syrup, and raw and brown sugars, in various combinations, and carrying on semantic and linguistic debates and discussions galore? And this is on top of literally hundreds of hours devoted solely to research. All that seems to be missing in this thread is some sex and violence :-D.

Peter


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1484 on: March 03, 2012, 09:53:08 AM »
I see the Power flour and the ADM Gigantic flour are not in the right pecking order.

Norma,

For now, I am leaving the flours in order of their gluten mass numbers rather than their protein numbers. We can always modifiy the list if new information comes along to suggest reordering of the flours.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1485 on: March 03, 2012, 11:07:26 AM »
Norma,

I perhaps should have mentioned in my last post that you did not use just Pendleton Power flour and Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in all of your MM#7 clones, and that you tried other flours and molasses products. Also, I noted that you were very happy with the results from using the MM#6 clone dough formulation, as you noted at Reply 815 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161450.html#msg161450. The two formulations are very similar, however, differing mainly in the amount of salt. I personally have been using less salt than indicated by the MM Nutrition Facts in order to emphasize the sweetness of the crusts of the MM clone pizzas rather than the saltiness.

As for myself, I continue to work behind the scenes trying new MM clone dough formulations and ideas, and continuing my quest for the best MM dough clone formulation, subject to the limitations I have with respect to flours, small pizza size (10"), and my standard electric home oven. I am now up to 42 printouts of MM clone dough formulations from the expanded dough calculating tool. The MM#6 and MM#7 formulations mentioned above are worthy, but they don't quite match up with all of the MM numbers, especially the carbohydrate quantities (too low). I actually believe that the MM clone dough formulations I created for CDNpieloever come closer to the MM numbers, mainly because of the large amount of the Crosby's Fancy Molasses that he can use without overly darkening the dough, yet providing lots of carbohydrates. In this latter vein, I have also been creating a chart in which I am converting the "sugars" for the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and all of the liquid molasses products that have been tested or examined in this thread into grams of sugars per 100 grams of the product in question. This will allow me to put the products in a better pecking order, and is consistent with the way that the molasses industry recites those numbers. The results that CDNpielover achieves with his next MM clone dough with 15% Crosby's Fancy Molasses should be a real help.

Looking back and reflecting on what we have done, this thread is quite extraordinary. In what other thread will you find people conducting hydration bake tests, gluten mass tests, baking and reusing gluten balls, conducting salinity/sweetness tests, shipping real MM dough balls across the country for testing, using paint and carpet samples to match colors, learning more about veganism, carrying on discussions and/or email exchanges with MM employees and industry experts on molasses, malt products, other sweeteners, flours and raw/toasted/pulverized wheat germ products, scouring supermarket shelves in Georgia (Gene) to find syrups to analyze in respect of MM's activities, collecting and analyzing spec sheets galore, scrutinizing Nutrition Facts and coming up with all kinds of calculations (including total water content, "adjusted" hydration, "effective" hydration, "sucrose equivalency" and carbohydrate numbers), and testing not only molasses products but also pure cane syrup, honey, sorghum, barley malt syrup, and raw and brown sugars, in various combinations? And this is on top of literally hundreds of hours devoted solely to research. All that seems to be missing in this thread is some sex and violence :-D.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that I didn’t use just Pendleton Power flour and Golden Supreme Baking Molasses in all of my MM#7 formulations.  I have tried KASL and ADM Gigantic flour.  I also have used different molasses products and they all have seemed to work well in the MM#7 formulation if the molasses is at the right level.  

I was happy with the MM#6 clone dough formulation too.  Steve and I also liked the formulation with molasses and brown sugar.  

Wow, 42 printouts from the expanded dough calculation tool is sure a lot for your formulations.   :o

What would it take for the MM#6 an MM#7 formulations to come up with the right carbohydrate quantities for the Nutrition Fact?  I guess it would it take a molasses with higher amounts of carbohydrates something like CDNpieloever is using?  I still wonder if MM might be adding something else for the sweetness and lower molasses amounts since we haven’t been able to find a molasses product with enough carbohydrates in the US.  

I also think this thread is quite extraordinary.  All the research, tests, formulations and you being able to do the calculations have really helped this thread. There is much that has been learned on this thread.  I guess this thread would be more interesting if there was some violence and sex included.   :-D

In a few weeks I would like to try one of your formulations out using KABF and vital wheat gluten to see how it would bake at market.  I do have vital wheat gluten at home. Do you have one formulation in mind that I could try?  I just want to see how it would bake in the deck oven and see if I think there is any difference in taste of the crust using VWG.  It wouldn’t matter what molasses product you would want me to try.  

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1486 on: March 03, 2012, 11:49:36 AM »
Norma,

What would it take for the MM#6 an MM#7 formulations to come up with the right carbohydrate quantities for the Nutrition Fact?  I guess it would it take a molasses with higher amounts of carbohydrates something like CDNpieloever is using?  I still wonder if MM might be adding something else for the sweetness and lower molasses amounts since we haven’t been able to find a molasses product with enough carbohydrates in the US.

One of the stumbling blocks here is that the MM Nutrition Facts do not give weights of their food items. So, that makes it difficult to do the carbohydrate calculations in the manner as required by the FDA. Omitting weights is actually clever on MM's part. So, instead, I have had to examine the ingredients that contain all of the carbohydrates. For the MM dough formulations, that is the flour and the molasses (there is also a little in the IDY but not enough to move the needle). Since the amount of flour is limited by the weight of the dough ball, I can usually calculate the carbohydrates for the formula flour in any of the MM dough formulations. But the amount of those carbohydrates for each flour that has been tested in this thread to date is not high enough by itself, as I interpret the MM Nutrition Facts. To get the total carbohydrates numbers high enough, that leaves only the molasses. If CDNpielover gets good results with his next MM clone pizza, both in terms of proper crust coloration and detectable sweetness, that would be a sign that it is possible to have a normal molasses product that can be used as is. That would also mean that MM need not use a pure cane syrup (like the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup). The Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses might be a logical candidate from an ingredients standpoint, because of its high cane syrup content, but the color of the dough starts to go South (too dark) once you get to around 10-12%, at which value there is not enough carbohydrate contribution. All of this has forced me to think more deeply on this subject.

Quote
In a few weeks I would like to try one of your formulations out using KABF and vital wheat gluten to see how it would bake at market.  I do have vital wheat gluten at home. Do you have one formulation in mind that I could try?  I just want to see how it would bake in the deck oven and see if I think there is any difference in taste of the crust using VWG.  It wouldn’t matter what molasses product you would want me to try.

I do not consider a VWG-based flour blend to be a particularly good candidate for an MM clone dough. It is better to use a real high-gluten flour. I use the VWG (Hodgson Mill brand) mainly for emulating a high-gluten flour for textural and hydration purposes. For my purposes, I have used 14-14.2% as the target protein content in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator (at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/), although I have gone as low as 13.5-13.6%. I am willing to give you a sample MM clone formulation using KABF and VWG, but I would prefer to await the results that CDNpielover gets when he makes the next MM clone pizza. Maybe we will learn something new from that.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1487 on: March 03, 2012, 07:15:55 PM »
Norma,

One of the stumbling blocks here is that the MM Nutrition Facts do not give weights of their food items. So, that makes it difficult to do the carbohydrate calculations in the manner as required by the FDA. Omitting weights is actually clever on MM's part. So, instead, I have had to examine the ingredients that contain all of the carbohydrates. For the MM dough formulations, that is the flour and the molasses (there is also a little in the IDY but not enough to move the needle). Since the amount of flour is limited by the weight of the dough ball, I can usually calculate the carbohydrates for the formula flour in any of the MM dough formulations. But the amount of those carbohydrates for each flour that has been tested in this thread to date is not high enough by itself, as I interpret the MM Nutrition Facts. To get the total carbohydrates numbers high enough, that leaves only the molasses. If CDNpielover gets good results with his next MM clone pizza, both in terms of proper crust coloration and detectable sweetness, that would be a sign that it is possible to have a normal molasses product that can be used as is. That would also mean that MM need not use a pure cane syrup (like the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup). The Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses might be a logical candidate from an ingredients standpoint, because of its high cane syrup content, but the color of the dough starts to go South (too dark) once you get to around 10-12%, at which value there is not enough carbohydrate contribution. All of this has forced me to think more deeply on this subject.

I do not consider a VWG-based flour blend to be a particularly good candidate for an MM clone dough. It is better to use a real high-gluten flour. I use the VWG (Hodgson Mill brand) mainly for emulating a high-gluten flour for textural and hydration purposes. For my purposes, I have used 14-14.2% as the target protein content in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator (at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/), although I have gone as low as 13.5-13.6%. I am willing to give you a sample MM clone formulation using KABF and VWG, but I would prefer to await the results that CDNpielover gets when he makes the next MM clone pizza. Maybe we will learn something new from that.

Peter

Peter,

I saw MM doesn’t give weights for their food items in the Nutrition Facts.  I can understand no flour tested on this thread is high enough in carbohydrates by itself, and to get the total carbohydrates high enough for that only leaves the molasses.  I will be interested if CDNpielover gets good results in his next attempt with crust coloration and detectable sweetness. 

I would think pure cane syrup and a very small amount of blackstrap molasses might also work to get the desired color of the dough and sweetness, but probably wouldn‘t give the right amount of carbohydrates either.

Since you really don’t consider a VWG-based flour blend to be a good candidate for a MM clone dough you don’t have to give me a formulation for that even if CDNpielover has good results.  I can stick with the MM#7 formulation I like so much.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1488 on: March 04, 2012, 10:22:49 AM »
I would think pure cane syrup and a very small amount of blackstrap molasses might also work to get the desired color of the dough and sweetness, but probably wouldn‘t give the right amount of carbohydrates either.

Norma,

I would say that your statement is correct. I think that the addition by Golden Barrel of the blackstrap molasses to the cane juice/syrup limits its use in an MM clone dough. To get the right amount of carbohydrates, and also sugars (more on this below), you would have to use a lot more of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. But, doing that, you would end up with a much darker dough and finished crust and crumb, but with a more intense flavor because of the blackstrap molasses. By contrast, Steen's does not add "molasses" to its cane syrup product. It is 100% pure cane syrup. As a result, its color is lighter than molasses and you can use a lot more of it before you reach the color of a real MM dough. But its flavor will be milder and with less tang than molasses. In the case of the Crosby's Fancy Molasses, their spec sheet says that their product "is the pure juice of sugar cane, condensed, inverted and purified." (I was told by the lab lady at Crosby's that the inversion is by the use of invertase.) I am still trying to decipher the Crosby specs but it looks like their molasses has attributes similar to both the Steen's product and the Golden Barrel product, mainly because of the cane juice/syrup component. If this is correct, and since Crosby's is not adding molasses to its product as Golden Barrel does, then it would seem that one might be able to use a fair amount of the Crosby's molasses before reaching the color of a real MM dough. Whereas Steen's does not refer to its 100% Pure Cane Syrup as "molasses", Crosby's does call its product molasses.

I might add that in addition to looking at carbohydrates, I have also been looking at the numbers for "sugars", as that term is defined by the FDA. The sugars in finished products are measured by instruments of some sort and, as you know, they vary during the course of fermentation. Some remain unused (residual) and intact during fermentation, but some are used up during fermentation, and some of the sugars end up being caramelized or used in the Maillard reactions. All of this means that it its hard to calculate the "sugars" number. However, I have been operating under the theory that for a frozen dough such as the frozen MM clone doughs we have been making, more of the sugars that start out in the dough (in our case, the molasses) remain in the dough because there is so little fermentation, especially if the frozen dough balls are defrosted after only one day or even two days (after three days, the fermentation/rise becomes more noticeable). I have started to pay closer attention to the sugars for the various molasses products but they are harder to calculate because the specs for the products can vary quite widely. It will be a while before I am able to tell if this is a meaningful approach.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1489 on: March 04, 2012, 12:36:28 PM »
Peter,

I know I won’t ever be able to understand, or be able do the calculations for all the molasses products in sugar and carbohydrates like you do and fit them all together on sweetness in the crust and also how they fit into MM Nutrition Facts.

I recall what you posted at Reply 1350 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171174.html#msg171174 Did you ever figure out what the numbers meant to be able to figure out the calculations?  You don’t have to explain how to do those calculations, (if you did find out) but I was just curious.  You then posted at Reply 1354 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171211.html#msg171211 that you understood what Paulette said and said you would use total sugars.  Is that correct what you are using now? I sometimes get mixed-up in this thread about all that is posted, since there is so much about “sucrose equivalency”, total sugars, carbohydrates, etc.

Gene posted it looked like MM had two sizes of plastic pails at Reply 1413 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172828.html#msg172828 in the one picture I posted at 1410 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172823.html#msg172823     Do you possibly think that might mean MM is using two different sweetener products for the MM dough? I tried to cut that picture out of the website page last evening and also other pictures from the link you provided, but couldn’t really see anything more, but did blow-up parts of those pictures and saved them on my computer. 

When I looked at the specs for the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup. (that I have at home and also posted on this thread somewhere) it says the carbohydrates are 67 grams and total sugar is 67 grams.  I might try an experiment in the future with the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and a little of blackstrap molasses just to see what happens.  I know that experiment wouldn’t be accurate in carbohydrates and sugars for the MM Nutrition Facts, but since the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup tastes so sweet I don’t think I would need much in the formulation with a little of blackstrap molasses to get sweetness in the crust and the crust should stay lighter in color. 

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1490 on: March 04, 2012, 02:08:47 PM »
Norma,

I recall what you posted at Reply 1350 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171174.html#msg171174 Did you ever figure out what the numbers meant to be able to figure out the calculations?  You don’t have to explain how to do those calculations, (if you did find out) but I was just curious.  You then posted at Reply 1354 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171211.html#msg171211 that you understood what Paulette said and said you would use total sugars.  Is that correct what you are using now? I sometimes get mixed-up in this thread about all that is posted, since there is so much about “sucrose equivalency”, total sugars, carbohydrates, etc.

I accepted Paulette's explanation on how to use the ranges. And, yes, I have been playing around with total sugars, at least those that are mono- and disaccharides, which is what the FDA requires.

Quote
Gene posted it looked like MM had two sizes of plastic pails at Reply 1413 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172828.html#msg172828 in the one picture I posted at 1410 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172823.html#msg172823   Do you possibly think that might mean MM is using two different sweetener products for the MM dough?

There is no way based on the photos you mentioned to answer that question. I wouldn't think that the smaller containers would hold yeast or oil, but there is no way to know for sure. I suppose it is possible that MM is using two forms of molasses but, again, there is no way of knowing. I would think that the processor would do a blend of the two forms of molasses to make it easier for workers to use to make the MM dough.

Quote
When I looked at the specs for the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup. (that I have at home and also posted on this thread somewhere) it says the carbohydrates are 67 grams and total sugar is 67 grams.  I might try an experiment in the future with the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and a little of blackstrap molasses just to see what happens.  I know that experiment wouldn’t be accurate in carbohydrates and sugars for the MM Nutrition Facts, but since the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup tastes so sweet I don’t think I would need much in the formulation with a little of blackstrap molasses to get sweetness in the crust and the crust should stay lighter in color. 

My recollection from http://www.dominospecialtyingredients.com/?pageId=1090&rowId=11197 is that the Domino Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup is a crystallized granular product. So, if you decide to try that product, you will have to adjust the formula hydration (increase it) to compensate for the fact that the product is dry (or with very low moisture content). You might check the spec sheet to see if there is a moisture number for the product. If you get to that point, I think I should be able to help you if you wish.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1491 on: March 04, 2012, 04:51:23 PM »
Norma,

I accepted Paulette's explanation on how to use the ranges. And, yes, I have been playing around with total sugars, at least those that are mono- and disaccharides, which is what the FDA requires.

There is no way based on the photos you mentioned to answer that question. I wouldn't think that the smaller containers would hold yeast or oil, but there is no way to know for sure. I suppose it is possible that MM is using two forms of molasses but, again, there is no way of knowing. I would think that the processor would do a blend of the two forms of molasses to make it easier for workers to use to make the MM dough.

My recollection from http://www.dominospecialtyingredients.com/?pageId=1090&rowId=11197 is that the Domino Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup is a crystallized granular product. So, if you decide to try that product, you will have to adjust the formula hydration (increase it) to compensate for the fact that the product is dry (or with very low moisture content). You might check the spec sheet to see if there is a moisture number for the product. If you get to that point, I think I should be able to help you if you wish.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks you for your answers.

I have the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup, but really what I had in mind to try with the blackstrap molasses was the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup. I made a mistake in what I really meant to post in my last post. Sorry about posting about the wrong syrup. The Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup is a water solution of Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice.  It says it is an alternative to refined sweetener and syrups.  The ingredient statement says it is Evaporated Cane Juice and water.  It is very thin and light in color (amber).  The sucrose numbers for it are 98.5.  

If you don’t think the Cane Juice Syrup with work in a MM clone formulation with blackstrap molasses, that is okay with me.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1492 on: March 04, 2012, 04:54:50 PM »
These are pictures of the MM#7 dough ball with Gigantic Flour and Grandma’s Original Molasses and Bob beside the dough ball.  Also a picture of Bob when he was frozen.  Bob is a little darker before he is thawed.  I thought the color of Bob and the MM#7 dough ball with Gigantic Flour and Grandma’s Original Molasses looked similar, but not exactly the same.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1493 on: March 04, 2012, 06:35:01 PM »
I have the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup, but really what I had in mind to try with the blackstrap molasses was the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup. I made a mistake in what I really meant to post in my last post. Sorry about posting about the wrong syrup. The Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup is a water solution of Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice.  It says it is an alternative to refined sweetener and syrups.  The ingredient statement says it is Evaporated Cane Juice and water.  It is very thin and light in color (amber).  The sucrose numbers for it are 98.5.  

If you don’t think the Cane Juice Syrup with work in a MM clone formulation with blackstrap molasses, that is okay with me.

Norma,

It may take some extra work, but I think it should be possible to use the syrup. Did you previously post the specs for that product? That will give me a better idea as to whether it will work, or whether more information is needed.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1494 on: March 04, 2012, 08:39:57 PM »
Norma,

It may take some extra work, but I think it should be possible to use the syrup. Did you previously post the specs for that product? That will give me a better idea as to whether it will work, or whether more information is needed.

Peter

Peter,

I thought I had posted the spec for Domino Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup, but since this thread is so long, I can find it.  I adjusted the brightness and contrast so maybe the spec sheet can be seen better.  If you can’t read it I can adjust it more.

There is no hurry and if you don’t think it will work you don’t even have to bother.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1495 on: March 04, 2012, 08:56:13 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for posting the specs for the Domino Granulated Evaporated Cane Sugar Syrup. I was able to read it. Do you have a particular brand of blackstrap molasses in mind, and do you have an idea as to the percent you would like to use? I have not seen detailed specs for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, but I assume that you are not trying to replicate that product.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1496 on: March 04, 2012, 09:44:33 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for posting the specs for the Domino Granulated Evaporated Cane Sugar Syrup. I was able to read it. Do you have a particular brand of blackstrap molasses in mind, and do you have an idea as to the percent you would like to use? I have not seen detailed specs for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, but I assume that you are not trying to replicate that product.

Peter

I don’t have any particular brand of blackstrap molasses in mind.  If you can think of one brand name that maybe we might be able to find the spec sheets for that might be the best.  I am not trying to replicate the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, but would like to get a lighter dough by using a combination of the Domino Golden Granulated Cane Juice Syrup and blackstrap molasses.  I have no idea of what percent of blackstrap molasses to try in combination with the Domino Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup, but guess it would be less than the 10% in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses product.  I am curious of how the cane juice syrup and blackstrap molasses would work together. 

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1497 on: March 04, 2012, 10:48:22 PM »
Norma,

Golden Barrel has a blackstrap molasses. Also, Plantation, a unit of Allied Old English, has a blackstrap molasses that is sometimes found in supermarkets. I tried to request spec sheets from Plantation for its molasses products but the Contact feature did not work. It would be nice to get spec sheets for the above products since the data is more detailed and helpful, but if the best we can do is rely on the Nutrition Facts on the labels, that is what we will use.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1498 on: March 04, 2012, 10:55:48 PM »
Norma,

Golden Barrel has a blackstrap molasses. Also, Plantation, a unit of Allied Old English, has a blackstrap molasses that is sometimes found in supermarkets. I tried to request spec sheets from Plantation for its molasses products but the Contact feature did not work. It would be nice to get spec sheets for the above products since the data is more detailed and helpful, but if the best we can do is rely on the Nutrition Facts on the labels, that is what we will use.

Peter

Peter,

I will look around at my local supermarkets in the next few days to see what brands of blackstrap molasses products they carry.  I don’t even remember what all of them are.  I remember seeing Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses and the Golden Barrel Blackstrap molasses, but can’t remember right now the rest of them.  I can try to get the specs for the Plantation blackstrap molasses.

Norma
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 09:01:44 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1499 on: March 07, 2012, 07:17:42 AM »
These are pictures of the MM#7 clone pizza using Grandma’s Original Molasses and the ADM Gigantic bromated flour in the formulation.  The skin looked about the same color as the skins I saw when I visited MM and the crumb looked a little lighter than some of the MM#7 formulations I have tried with other molasses products and other high-gluten flours.  I sure don’t know why the crumb looked a little lighter.  The taste of sweetness was still in the crust.  The one picture of the rim was taken before any herb garlic oil was applied so it could be seen what color the rim really was after the bake.

I liked the pizza made with the Grandma’s Original Molasses and the ADM Gigantic flour. 

Norma
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