Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 92177 times)

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Offline petesopizza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2007, 11:51:14 AM »
The dots in the dough is the yeast dying. or so I have been told. :) A place where I used to work would wait for the dots to appear then use the dough.
Someday I will make money from this obsession.


Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2007, 01:49:24 PM »
Knowing how you favor room-temperature fermentation over cold fermentation, I am sure you didn't wait 15 days for your pizza ;D.

Quite right.  I had an onion sprout and grow 4 inches within the last 15 days.  When it takes less time to germinate an onion than it does to have a dough ready for an onion topped pizza, you know you've been holding on to your dough too long.

I also know that you are a big advocate of using oil in a dough, and apportioning the formula oil between the oil used in the dough and the oil on the dough. [...] I suspect that there are some sound principles involved in the way oil is used in a dough formulation, but I wonder if you could explain the rationale behind your use of oil in making pizza dough, and also how one might calculate the apportionment of the formula oil between the inside and outside of the dough, perhaps using the amount of oil I specified in the last Lehmann dough formulation?

From a previous post in the kneading thread:

in the chemical engineering world, oil of various kinds are used extensively as plasticizers. [...]

"Plasticizers work by embedding themselves between the chains of polymers, space them apart (increasing of the "free volume"), and thus [...] making it softer." - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer]

In this case the polymer is the gluten amino acid chain (heteropolymer).  The more the gluten is plasticized, the more hydrostatic pressure it can withstand.  Here's more on plasticized gluten for use in high tensile strength films (coatings):

http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/R1979.htm


Lipids have four major modification characteristics with regard to protein mixtures: protein solubility, water vapor permeability (WVP), tensile strength, and elongation.  Attached is a graph of the various levels of influence oil has on protein.  The green line represents tensile strength at break, the blue line represents WVP, the gray line represents elongation at break, and the orange line represents protein solubility.  Taking into account only the tensile strength and WVP, the vertical line represents the ideal percentage of oil to add for an equally weighted compromise between the two.  The values along the bottom indicate a percentage of the protein percentage in the flour, so if the flour has a protein percentage of 12.7%, then the ideal percentage of oil to add to the flour is 1.58% under these precepts.  The more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.

The ratio of volume-oil versus surface-oil is simply a logical extension of evenly distributing oil throughout the dough ball.  Unless one were to re-knead the dough sometime after oiling the surface, or try to wipe off the oil after rising, that oil can be in a disproportionate quantity which could result in disproportionate browning.  The ratio I use is intended to minimize the effect of having more oil on the surface in relation to the dough ball itself, while still functioning minimally as a barrier to escaping moisture.  It's also intended to prevent excess oil from seeping into the surface of the dough creating a "dead" skin (dead as in uninhabitable by yeast).  I've also attached the formula for determining the ratio.  MOtotal is the total amount of oil for the dough ball, inside and out.  MF is the mass (weight) of the flour.  MOi is the amount of oil to mix in with the dough.  The remainder from subtracting MOi from MOtotal is the amount of oil for the surface.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2007, 02:17:36 PM »
Peter,

I can provide an example based on your latest dough formula, but because I'm pretty sure many people don't include the total amount of oil used in and on their dough, I'm going to use the formula adapted for determining the amount for the surface.  Otherwise it would be 1.93g for use in the dough and 0.73g for use on the surface.  Attached is the formula for determining the surface oil when it is not accounted for in the dough formula.  I purposely used the original formula and marked out deprecated terms to illustrate the adaption.

(36 * pi) / 266 = 0.4251779531
cubed.root(0.4251779531)  = 0.7519522196
0.7519522196 / 2 = 37.6% of the oil used in the dough, which means:
0.3759761098 * 2.66 = 1.00g for the surface

One thing this promotes for sure is consistency, whether the amount of oil used is agreeable or not.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2007, 03:00:31 PM »
November,

Thank you very much.

I just about always include some oil in my doughs and on the outer surfaces so it came to me as a big surprise to find that the all-purpose dough I made the other day and reported on earlier in this thread was perhaps the best, or one of the best, doughs I have ever made in terms of having an almost perfect balance between elasticity and extensibility. And that dough had no oil in it at all, and just a small amount on the outer surface. I might have been happy to give credit to the new dough making method I have been using and writing about, but are there other factors besides oil that might have been involved? The formulation included only flour, water (65%), salt (1%) and yeast (0.25% IDY). The dough did ferment at room temperature for a few hours before degassing and placing it in the refrigerator, but otherwise the dough preparation was fairly standard (salt dissolved in water, flour and IDY added, etc.)

For those who may need an online tool for calculating cube roots, see http://www.csgnetwork.com/cuberootcubecalc.html.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2007, 03:42:47 PM »
Peter,

For one, all-purpose flour is lower in protein which as a result, can't utilize as much oil anyway.  If you were to add oil, you would want it to be lower than for higher protein flours.  Given that you're used to adding oil late in the mixing process, I'm not sure what you could have experienced to have a better handling dough.  I would suggest doing a side-by-side comparison with a hydration of 60-62%, and one ball having a small percentage of oil (added at the same time as the water), with all the other conditions being the same.

By the way, if you lack a cubed root function on your calculator, but have an arbitrary power function (x^y) you can simply raise to the reciprocal of the root (e.g. x^(1/3)).

- red.november

Offline petesopizza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2007, 10:24:52 PM »
pete-zza are you going to perform more ady experiments?
Someday I will make money from this obsession.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2007, 10:40:39 PM »
pete-zza are you going to perform more ady experiments?

It's likely that I will at some point.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2007, 08:24:20 AM »
Recently, I decided to use the new KitchenAid dough making method to make a Sbarro’s clone dough, as was recently the subject of discussion at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg18163.html#msg18163.

For purposes of the Sbarro’s clone dough, I used the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (2.22%):
Lard (2.5%):
Total (162.97%):
427.94 g  |  15.09 oz | 0.94 lbs
239.65 g  |  8.45 oz | 0.53 lbs
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
8.56 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
9.5 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
10.7 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.47 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
697.41 g | 24.6 oz | 1.54 lbs | TF = N/A

As is my practice with the new KitchenAid dough making method, I increased the quantities of ingredients by 2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. This yielded a final dough weight of a bit over 24 ounces, the targeted dough weight for an 18” pizza. I calculated a thickness factor for the dough formulation of 0.094299 initially, but that increased to 0.0966565 when adjusted to reflect the increase in the quantities of ingredients. The water used for the bulk of the formula water was bottled water out of the refrigerator at 49.5 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 69.7 degrees F.

What I wondered most most about the Sbarro’s dough clone at the outset was how well the new KitchenAid dough making method would work for a 24-ounce dough ball in my basic KitchenAid mixer--which is larger than my typical dough ball weight--together with a hydration of 56%, which is far below the absorption rate (around 63%) of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour that I used. I suspected that I would make greater use of the flat beater and the C-hook, and a higher mixer speed with the C-hook. And, indeed, this was the case, as the following discussion describes.

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the flour and rehydrating the ADY in a small amount (less than ¼-cup) of the formula water which I had preheated to around 105 degrees F. During the time of rehydration of the ADY, a period of about 10 minutes, I added the rest of the formula water (at 49.5 degrees F) to the mixer bowl along with the salt, which I stirred to dissolve. Once the ADY was rehydrated, I added it to the mixer bowl along with the non-diastatic barley malt syrup (Eden brand, from Whole Foods), which is essentially a sugar (sucrose) substitute for purposes of the clone recipe. I gradually added the sifted flour to the bowl, at stir speed, and combined the ingredients using the whisk attachment. While the dough was still somewhat batter-like, I added the lard (Armour brand) and kneaded that into the dough mixture.

Once the whisk started to fill up with dough, I scraped the dough off of the whisk and replaced the whisk with the flat beater, and gradually added the remaining flour at stir/1 speed. It soon became clear, after about a minute or so, that the dough was quite stiff and that I would have to use the flat beater longer than usual. I also found it necessary to stop the mixer to intervene to manually help the dough take on all of the remaining flour. Once that was done, I switched to the C-hook and kneaded the dough at speeds 1-3 (in sequence) for about 5 minutes, or until I could see that the dough was properly and completely kneaded. After about a final minute of hand kneading, I lightly oiled the finished dough ball and placed it in a metal lidded container, which was then placed into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for 24 hours before using.

What the above exercise proved is that it is possible to use the new dough making method to make a fairly stiff dough but that it is necessary to adjust the relative mix/knead times using the three attachments. I found this to be an intuitive, natural exercise to which I adjusted quite easily. The finished dough was of good handling quality and I had no problems shaping and stretching the dough out to 18”, the desired pizza size. The photo below is of the finished pizza. Additional details of the finished pizza are provided at the Sbarro’s thread referenced above.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2007, 01:02:32 PM »
These pizza look really good.  In the next week or so I thought I would give you method a try using the recipe you posted in reply 1.  I want to use Harvest King flour if you think that would be a good flour for a test even though you specified KASL in the reply.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2007, 03:23:40 PM »
Randy,

I don't see any reason offhand why the Harvest King flour can't be used in the method. I routinely substitute bread flour (King Arthur in my case) for the KASL in recipes without changing anything, although on occasion I may drop the hydration percent a bit for the bread flour. I have found that in general I can get better hydration of a flour using the new method than the other methods I previously used.

Peter


Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2007, 10:04:21 AM »
Pete et al,
This is my first post on this forum, so please be patient. I have been lurking in the background for about one month ... reading, learning, wishing, testing, and wishing again!

I am going to attempt the recipe that starts this thread at the end of the week. I do have a yeast question in two parts ...
I have been playing with the Italian cultures from sourdo.com, and I have had some success with making rustic breads. I want to use the "stuff" (preferment?) to create pizza dough. Makes some sense to me. Here are my questions:
1. Is it worth the effort (taste/texture) to use these "cultures?"
2. Is there a conversion factor/table for IDY vs. "the goop?"

FWIW ... I do have a digital scale.

Finally ...
I appreciate all the sharing you folks have done. Really! I have cooked in my electric oven. I have cooked on my BGE. I am in search of that great home pizza, and I think that riding your wake has been a great experience.

Thanks bunches and doughballs,
Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2007, 11:25:53 AM »
zappoman,

It has been my intention from the beginning to try the new dough making method with a natural starter or preferment. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. So, I don't have any idea at the moment as to whether it will work, or how well.

I occasionally read about conversions of commercial yeast to a starter quantity. However, I don't know how such a conversion can be generally relied upon because of the different strains of starters, different strengths, different refreshment methods, different hydrations, etc. You might ultimately be able to come up with such a conversion for your own starter that you can rely on, but it is unlikely to be usable by someone else with a different starter.

Peter

Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2007, 12:14:15 PM »
Peter,

I am amazed and grateful at the sheer volume of information that you generously offer on this site. Thank you.

Moving right along ...
I made a batch of dough following Post #1 in this thread. I made it just two days ago, and it has been in the refrigerator ever since.
Yesterday it appeared "blown" to me ... lots (double) of rise. So I rerolled my little doughballs.
Today ... same thing.
I just rerolled again.
PRIMARY QUESTION: How long can I do this without destroying the finished product?
This causes me to wonder. It appears that I had too much yeast? My digital scale can only measure to the nearest gram, no tenths. I wonder if the "postal" scale that I have needs an upgrade?
SECONDARY QUESTION: Does that seem to be the likely cause?
FINAL QUESTION: Where can I find a "reasonably-priced" scale that might be better suited for pizza-making?

Thanks again,
Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2007, 03:09:58 PM »
zappoman,

Thank you for the kind remarks.

The principal factors that govern the rate and extent of fermentation in a typical dough formulation are the amount of yeast used, the temperature of the finished dough, and the temperature at which the dough is fermented. The temperature of the finished dough is governed principally by the temperature of the water used, the temperature of the flour, and the heat added by mixing. If too much yeast is used, and/or the finished dough temperature is too high, or the dough is stored at too high a temperature, the dough will ferment at a faster rate. To keep temperatures on the cool side, and to extend the useful life of the dough, one should put the dough in the refrigerator as soon as possible after being made and not subject the dough to a period of room temperature fermentation before putting it in the refrigerator, as some prefer to do. Also, one might use a metal container to help cool the dough a bit faster, and place the container toward the back of the refrigerator where it is cooler and less subject to the effects of repeated openings and closings of the refrigerator door.

Unless you have a special scale that can weigh small quantities of lightweight ingredients like yeast, I suggest that you use the volume measurements instead. For flour and water, I definitely recommend that you use a scale, preferably a good digital scale. If I did not already have a digital scale, I would purchase the one recommended by November at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4005.msg33649.html#msg33649 (Reply 3). From some posts I have read, apparently a few members have already heeded November’s advice. Some of the prices I have seen for the recommended unit seem to be very reasonabe for the number and types of features offered.

You didn’t indicate where you live, but if the weather where you live has turned warm recently, as it has where I live outside of Dallas, doughs will have a tendency to ferment faster. Room temperatures will usually be higher but even refrigerator temperatures can be a bit higher. I have already noticed this recently with doughs that I have been experimenting with. To compensate for the warmer temperatures, one should use less yeast, cooler water (even ice water, if necessary), or a combination of both. There are other possible ways of compensating, such as using a lower hydration or more salt, but I would concentrate on yeast quantity and water temperature before resorting to the other possibilities.

I suspect that in your case you may have used too much yeast or the water temperature was too high, or the mixer you used contributed too much heat to the dough. Usually the latter occurs at high mixer speeds or as a result of prolonged kneading. That is one of the reasons why I try to use the lowest mixer speeds and not to knead too long.

There is most likely a practical limit to how many times you can punch a dough down and let it recover, but I don’t know what it is for a Lehmann dough since I don’t think I have ever punched a Lehmann dough down. Usually doughs that can be punched down two or more times contain a lot of yeast, were made using water temperature on the high side, or a combination of both, or the dough was kneaded too long or at too high a mixer speed. It could also happen if your refrigerator compartment was malfunctioning and operating at too high a temperature. That would usually be a rare occurrence and you would soon know it. 

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:20:23 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2007, 03:56:21 PM »
Wow!
Thank you.
I am humbled!  ;)

Peter

Offline charbo

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2007, 04:35:08 PM »
Temperature is the elephant in the room (or refrigerator) that makes it hard to duplicate recipes.  In winter, my kitchen is usually around 60°F.  For yeast, that’s a huge difference from someone else’s kitchen at 70°F.  A lot of people seem to have refrigerators at around 40°F.  Mine is at 35°F.  Little happens to the dough at 35°.  If I’m going to refrigerate the dough, I first leave it out about 1.5 hours.

cb

Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2007, 04:37:27 PM »
Ready for this one?

My "dough" refrigerator is in the garage ...
and I live in Florida!

Thanks,
Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2007, 05:25:13 PM »
I am humbled!  ;)

zappoman,

Pizza dough has a way of humbling just about everyone. Even Chris Bianco has talked about the variability and unpredictability of his doughs. He yields to that condition, and has learned to respect it. I understand what he means, and try to show the same respect. You can't order a dough around, or abuse it, and expect to get good results. The dough rules. About the best you can do is "program" the dough to do what you hope it will do and then cross your fingers.

Professionals have an advantage over home pizza makers in that they use commercial coolers to store their dough, and in many cases they make their dough at night so that it ferments overnight when the workers are not around and going in and out of the coolers. The commercial coolers also operate about 5-10 degrees F cooler than most home refrigerator compartments. I am sure that just by going in and out of my refrigerator several times a day, and adding and removing items from the refrigerator, I am raising my dough temperatures. Opening and closing the dough containers (e.g., my metal lidded containers) to observe the dough will also affect the dough temperature. cb is right that temperature is the elephant in the room (or refrigerator). Because of that, I seriously wonder whether it will be possible this summer to make a functioning dough that can cold ferment for 15 days, as I did a while back when it was cold here in Texas. I would perhaps have to use ice cubes.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 05:27:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2007, 08:06:36 AM »
Through all of the experiments I have conducted on this thread, one of the things that has always intrigued me is the appearance of dark specks and an overall grayish tinge on the tops of dough balls during cold fermentation. Examples of what I am referring to can be seen in the first photo posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 (Reply 23) and in the second photo posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 (Reply 29).

Before I started making doughs that went beyond 4 or 5 days, I had never seen doughs with the appearances as shown in the abovereferenced posts. And, although the “gray” dough balls produced some of the best crusts and pizzas I have made, I was still puzzled as to what was causing the gray appearance. I might add that the grayish tinge and specks appeared only on the tops of dough balls. The bottoms were quite normal, even up to 15 days of cold fermentation. Usually the first signs of the dark specks appeared at around 6-7 days of cold fermentation, although in one case, as described at Reply 29 referenced above, the spots and gray coloration of the dough occurred after about 2-3 days.

Initially, I thought that maybe the dark specks were dead yeast, or possibly yeast that was affected in some way at around 6-7 days because of the prolonged presence of oil on the outer surfaces of the dough balls. When I researched the matter, one of the few explanations I could find was that the dark specks were due to oxidation of bran particles in the dough (“old dough”). This explanation came from John Correll at his Encyclopizza tome, at section 18 at http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730478. Since I was using high-gluten flour (KASL), this explanation seemed plausible because high-gluten flours are more likely to have more bran than other white flours, even though millers go to great lengths to keep the bran levels low in just about all white flours. Also, high-gluten flours have higher ash values than other white flours, which can be taken as an indication that the flours were milled closer to the outer bran/aleurone layer of the endosperm where the mineral content is higher than at the center. It is the higher mineral content that is reflected in the higher ash values of the incinerated samples of high-gluten flours. As best I can determine, the KASL has an ash value of 0.52 +/- 0.02%. By contrast, for the KA all-purpose flour and bread flour, I believe the corresponding number is 0.48 +/-0.02% (see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/85e624febf29e4c7836066cc68c71648/miscdocs/BFS%20Specs%20-%20Customer%20Copy.pdf).

To see whether the dark specks were limited to doughs based on high-gluten flours, I made several test doughs using all-purpose flour and bread flour. I allowed the test doughs to cold ferment for several days, watching daily for the appearance of the dark specks. In just about all cases, I let the dough ferment past their useful lives, just to be sure that enough time was provided for the specks to appear, if they were ever going to do so. I also tested plastic (Rubbermaid) and metal containers, to see if the type of container might have contributed in some way to the occurrence of the specks. In some of the test doughs, I used ADY in lieu of IDY, to see if that mattered, and in others I omitted the oil altogether. This was done to see if the oil was a possible factor, either in or on the dough, particularly for a dough that was allowed to ferment for 6 or more days, where I had little past experience

When the tests were done and I evaluated the results, I concluded that it was only the high-gluten doughs (KASL) that had the dark specks. I saw no evidence of specks in the doughs made from all-purpose flour or bread flour, even after 7 days, and up to 9 days in a few cases. The type of yeast didn’t seem to matter, whether it was used early or late in the dough making process, and the presence or lack of oil didn’t seem to matter. There could well be some other explanation, but for now the best I can offer is that it is only the KASL high-gluten flour that seems to be prone to the formation of the dark specks in doughs that cold ferment for more than 6-7 days. I wish that I could say that the appearance of the specks is a good indicator that the dough should be used shortly thereafter, but the specks can persist and even increase with time. The appearance of bubbles on the upper surface of the dough, along with smaller gas bubbles at the sides and bottom, seems to be a more reliable indicator, whether the specks exist or not. I saw this most clearly with the all-purpose and bread flour doughs. At some point, they all developed the bubbles. But no dark specks.

Peter

EDIT (10/2/13): For a substitute link for the Correll Encyclopizza item referenced above, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730478

Offline MWTC

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2007, 10:38:13 AM »
Peter,

I have been experimenting with using a little pure potato flour to my dough experiments and guess what appeared. Spots, like you just expressed. The spots appeared much quicker than usual. So that might be a clue to what is happening with the spotting. Ask Red.November for his input, I'm sure he has a take on it.

MWTC  :chef: