Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 92002 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2007, 11:14:08 AM »
MWTC,

I was actually waiting to see if you would reply to my last post but I thought you might mention that the doughs you made using the poolish method, including the use of All Trumps high-gluten flour, did not exhibit the spotting after several days, even beyond 7 days. And the All Trumps flour has an even higher ash content (0.54 +/- 0.03%) than the KASL. I was prepared to point out that your poolish method lowers the dough pH and that may have been the reason for your not getting the spotting in your dough. As pointed out in the Correll piece referenced in my earlier post, the cure for the spotting is to add a bit of vinegar to the dough to lower the pH.

In your case, you may want to see if the potato flour you are using includes sodium bisulfite. That ingredient is often added to dehydrated potato flour to prevent browning of the product. I don't know if that answers your problem, but you might check the label for your potato flour to see if sodium bisulfite is included.

Peter


Offline MWTC

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2007, 11:33:13 AM »
Peter,

The dough that I talked about using the pure potato flour did use a poolish of four hours. I did get the spotting faster than any dough I've ever produced. The package lists the ingredients as pure potato flour nothing added. I bought it at Whole Foods. I reduced the amount of potato flour and increased the EVOO and the spotting didn't appear. I also am adding Soy Butter and Soy based Cream Cheese. Better results all-around. But the variable that changed things to spotting was the potato flour.  Still experimenting. ;D

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 11:35:55 AM by MWTC »

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2007, 12:44:47 PM »
I was prepared to point out that your poolish method lowers the dough pH and that may have been the reason for your not getting the spotting in your dough. As pointed out in the Correll piece referenced in my earlier post, the cure for the spotting is to add a bit of vinegar to the dough to lower the pH.

If the spots were a result of oxidation, I don't see how a lower pH will cause them to go away.  Acid-catalyzed oxidation is one of the most common reactions in all of chemistry.  I use peracetic acid as a general purpose kitchen cleaner for this very reason.  It's oxidation potential is higher than hydrogen peroxide alone.  So either the addition of acetic acid to remedy the problem is bogus, or the theory that pH has anything to do with it is bogus.

Peter, have you tried using vinegar in the dough to confirm its effect on the spots?  If you can confirm that vinegar reduces or eliminates the spots, we can then look at alternatives to bran oxidation.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2007, 01:06:52 PM »
Peter, have you tried using vinegar in the dough to confirm its effect on the spots?  If you can confirm that vinegar reduces or eliminates the spots, we can then look at alternatives to bran oxidation.

November,

As our resident debunker, I was hoping you might shed some light on the spotting issue. I have not yet tried adding some vinegar but I will conduct a new experiment to test out the thesis. A secondary reason for doing the experiment is to see if the vinegar affects the performance of the dough in other respects, such as browning of the crust and fermentation, as noted by John Correll in the previously referenced Encyclopizza link.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2007, 01:55:06 PM »
Peter,

I can already confirm the effects of additional acetic acid on dough, as you might have taken note of in the past with postings like my Dutch Apple pizza recipe and the occasional mention of rice vinegar.  It will in fact increase the browning of the dough as expected via aldol condensation and various carbonyl-amine reactions.

I think I've gotten black spots on my dough just once in the last year, so it doesn't happen frequently enough for me to examine.  I'm not sure I have enough information by proxy in this case to form a hypothesis.  A closer analysis would need to be performed.  If you obtain black spots again, let me know right away and I can instruct you on how to test for different things.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2007, 02:09:13 PM »
November,

The note at the Correll site reads as follows:

NOTE: Increasing the acidity of dough can inhibit crust browning, so it may be necessary to add non-fat dry milk or whey to increase browning. Increased acidity also inhibits fermentation, so it may be necessary to increase yeast level or dough temperature.

The note seems to be contrary to what you stated in your last post. I don't plan to use either non-fat dry milk or whey or increase the yeast level when I make the next test dough. I may have to adjust water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature in line with what I achieved before when the spotting occurred.

Peter



Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2007, 02:53:02 PM »
Peter,

Inhibiting fermentation I'll wholeheartedly agree with, as I have also pointed that out before, but as for inhibiting browning, I don't see that as ever being possible.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2007, 03:00:24 PM »
It just occurred to me where the source of this mythic-like theory comes from: using citric acid to halt the browning of fruit.  The problem is, as anyone with knowledge of this process could attest, the browning in these situations is enzymatic in nature.  The browning in baking is non-enzymatic, and completely unrelated.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2007, 05:39:51 PM »
As you know, myths irritate me, so I put together a little experiment to demonstrate the browning effects of carbohydrates and proteins treated with acetic acid, relative to untreated.  Attached is an image I just scanned of two 1 inch test strips.  Each test strip is made from .012 inch (150 lb), uncoated stock paper.  I think you can guess which one was treated with acetic acid.  Here are the solution compositions with which I treated a test strip:

Solution A (top)
20.0 g water
0.96 g sucrose
0.50 g VWG
0.04 g cornstarch

Solution B (bottom)
20.0 g water
1.00 g acetic acid
0.96 g sucrose
0.50 g VWG
0.04 g cornstarch

Both were heated in a 500 degree F oven for exactly 3 minutes.

From digital image analysis, the bottom strip (Solution B) tested with a blackness level of 73% while the top strip (Solution A) tested with a blackness level of 50%.  That's almost one and a half times darker.  What may bring back memories for some people, is the "secret spy message" kids are taught to do with lemon juice written on a piece of paper, only to be revealed when placed near a heat source.  This is almost identical, except that a few more reactions are going on here than simple oxidation.

- red.november

EDIT: See following post for image.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 06:59:59 PM by November »

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2007, 06:59:19 PM »
It was brought to my attention in private that there also looms a myth involving Potassium bitartrate (Cream of Tartar) inhibiting browning in baked goods.  Well, here you go:

Solution A (top)
Solution B (middle)
Solution C (bottom)
20.0 g water
1.00 g potassium bitartrate
0.96 g sucrose
0.50 g VWG
0.04 g cornstarch

The potassium bitartrate treated strip tested with a blackness level of 76%.  Although a slightly different hue than the acetic acid solution, it is actually the darkest.

- red.november

EDIT: In the interest of disclosing a more complete picture of the methodology, I've also attached an image of the control test strips.  The top is untreated and unheated, while the bottom is treated only with water and heated the same length of time (3 minutes) at the same temperature (500 F).  The water-treated and heated strip tested with a blackness level of 4%.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 09:05:38 AM by November »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2007, 09:00:36 PM »
November,

Thank you very much for running the "browning" experiments. I hope soon to prepare another KASL dough that will hopefully exhibit the spotting phenomenon. If I replicate the spotting condition, you will be the first to know. I also plan to run a test dough using a bit of vinegar.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2007, 09:20:53 PM »
The last dough ball I made as part of the tests discussed in Reply 78 was a Lehmann NY style dough ball made using King Arthur bread flour. Even though it was past its prime, that is, overfermented, I decided to try to make a pizza out of it anyway. To do this successfully, the dough can’t be on its absolute last legs. It has to still be alive. It may also turn out that the dough is so extensible that it may be very difficult, and even impossible in some cases, to shape and stretch the dough out by hand and use a peel to load the pizza into the oven. But if you can manage to get the dressed pizza into the oven you can often end up with an exceptional pizza, with superb flavors of fermentation in the finished crust. The crust may have a lighter crust color than normal, because of the depletion of the sugars, but the crumb can be very good and of nice texture.

The dough itself was based on the following Lehmann dough formulation, which I derived from the recently updated Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (168%):
266.26 g  |  9.39 oz | 0.59 lbs
173.07 g  |  6.1 oz | 0.38 lbs
0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.66 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
447.32 g | 15.78 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.1025

The dough was prepared using the basic techniques described in this thread (sifted flour, whisk, flat paddle and C-hook), a water temperature of 48.6 degrees F, and a 2.5% increase in the ingredients to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation. The finished dough weight was 15.75 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 69.7 degrees F. The thickness factor entered into the tool was 0.10.

The dough ball was 7 days old when I decided to use it. I knew it was on the decline on day 6, when large bubbles started to form at the upper surface of the dough. That was a signal that the dough had to be promptly used. I stretched the use of the dough out one more day in order to complete the test for which I had made the dough in the first place. In preparation for shaping the dough ball, I preheated my pizza stone for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F. However, when time came to shape and stretch the dough, I found it so extensible that I concluded that I wouldn’t be able to use a peel to dress and load the pizza into the oven. So I decided to use a cutter pan in combination with the pizza stone. My cutter pan is a 14” solid, dark, anodized pizzatools.com cutter pan such as shown at http://www.pizzatools.com/productdisplay.aspx?catid=52&c=Cutter_Pans. I lightly oiled the bottom of the cutter pan with olive oil, to enhance the browning of the bottom of the crust, and after stretching out the dough to about 10”, I draped the dough over the pan and pulled the edges out the rest of the way to the rim of the pan.

After dressing the pizza (in a basic pepperoni style), I baked it on the stone for about 6 minutes. I then removed the pizza from the pan (which I removed from the oven) and placed the pizza directly on the pizza stone, where it baked for an additional two minutes. To prevent overbrowning of the bottom crust, I finished the pizza with an additional two minutes on the next-to-the-top oven rack position.

The photos below show the finished pizza. As suspected, the top crust was lighter in color than normal, but the oven spring and crumb were very good. The crust itself had nice flavors of fermentation, and had a chewy texture with good “tooth”. Although not entirely visible in the photos, the rim of the crust had a profusion of small blisters characteristic of overfermentation of the dough. The crust wasn’t as crispy as a normal Lehmann crust baked completely on a stone, but it still had a nice texture with a bit of crunch. Overall I found the crust to be quite enjoyable. I was also very pleased with the performance of the cutter pan. It appears to be a good choice when a dough is too soft and extensible to handle in any other manner. The cutter pan is also an improvement over a pizza screen because there is no need to worry about the dough becoming fused to the cutter pan as can easily happen with a screen.

Where the pizza could have been improved was in the use of a better mozzarella cheese. I was using the Wal-Mart Great Value processed mozzarella cheese as part of a series of tests using that brand of cheese. What I have discovered is that it tends to release an orange-colored oil during baking (as shown in the photos) and the melted cheese loses its stretchiness and behaves more like Cheez Wiz.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2007, 10:49:59 PM »
Peter,

Try adding 6% pure potato flour and see if you don't get the most spotting you've ever seen.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 10:52:14 PM by MWTC »

Offline SemperFi

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2007, 01:27:46 PM »
Hi Peter,

Just wanted to let you know that I am trying out your recipe that you first started this thread with.  I followed it to a T, even the last addition of the tsp of water.  I must admit, it is a tad involved with the changing of the beaters and all, but hopefully I will have a decent dough at the end of the cycle (I am aiming for a 9 day fermentation).  Come next Wednesday, I will be trying a Varasano type, with a 3 day fermentation, so that I can compare the two, side by side.  If you remember, I started a thread about Varasano a while back, before my scale.  It made the best pizza I have ever eaten, but the hydration came out to 71.85% oddly enough when actually weighed out after my scale purchase.  Post scale purchase, all of my pizzas have gone downhill, low browning, lack of depth, poor rim development etc.  So hopefully I can redeem myself with some decent pics and a more thorough and detailed approach to my madness.  Adam
Adam

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2007, 02:48:53 PM »
I am aiming for a 9 day fermentation

Adam,

Interestingly, I spoke with one of our members recently and he mentioned that when he followed my dough formulation for the 15-day dough I produced, with a few modifications, he couldn't get beyond about 4-5 days. When I later re-read what I posted, everything I said in my post on the subject was consistent with the detailed set of notes I prepared as I made the dough and shortly thereafter.

Today, I started a couple of new test doughs using the same 15-day method. One of the doughs includes white vinegar to see if that prevents the spotting that I have experienced with earlier doughs with long lifespans. In preparing the doughs, I used water as cold as I could get it without freezing it. I placed the formula water in a cup in my freezer until a very thin sheet of ice formed on the surface. By the time I used the water, the temperature was about 32-33 degrees F. I was striving for a finished dough temperature of around 65 degrees F, but because my kitchen temperature is close to 73 degrees F, the best I could get as a finished dough temperature for both doughs was a bit over 71 degrees F. So, I may not know for several days whether 15 days is a realistic lifespan for the doughs. It may be considerably less. I don't recall whether you have said where you live, but if it is warm where you live you might want to check the dough after a few days to be sure that it is OK from a fermentation standpoint.

It will become increasingly more difficult to get long lifespans in doughs as summer approaches, and especially here in Texas where our summers are hotter than most places around the country. I usually like to check the progress of my dough balls as they cold ferment but I am going to try to resist doing this as often with the current dough balls so that I don't raise their temperature. I have placed the dough containers (metal, lidded) at the back of the refrigerator compartment so that they are in the coldest part of the compartment.

Peter

Offline SemperFi

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2007, 03:22:30 PM »
Peter,

I might try in the future for a longer fermentation ie 15 days, but would be very happy with a 7-9 day window.  Oddly enough, I blew the lid off of my dough this morning as I was snooping around the cooler.  It literally just popped right off, probably not the best sign, but ohhhhhh, the aroma that was released.  The dough is beautifully spread on the bottom of the container (gladware), and there is minimal rise.  So hopefully I am following in your footsteps accurately.  Adam
Adam

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2007, 04:00:26 PM »
Adam,

The 15-day thing just sorta happened. I was interested in understanding the phenomena involved in a dough that could last that long, and especially the graying/spotting phenomenon, so I kept pushing it day by day waiting to see if the dough would expire. Even at 15 days, the dough looked and felt like it could have gone a few days longer. I also remembered November's post in another thread in which he mentioned that a cold fermented yeasted dough can be safely maintained for about a month, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3980.msg33233.html#msg33233 (Reply 4). What was most interesting about the pizza made with the 15-day dough is that the crust flavor enhancement was no more than a dough with, say, 7 or 8 days. So, such a long-lived dough is somewhat impractical. But I think some of the most interesting and useful knowledge comes from working at the extremes of the spectrum.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2007, 04:38:55 PM »
Just to be sure that the context of the discussion in the other thread carries over here, the one month timeframe is for "safe to eat" dough, not necessarily "good to eat" dough.  A one month old dough ball will probably leave you wanting a glass of strong beverage to wash it down, but if no older than a month, at least the dough won't put you in the hospital.

- red.november

Offline SemperFi

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2007, 03:58:43 PM »
Well Peter,

I obviously did something wrong.  This morning, which would be day #3, my dough was at the double volume mark, and I noticed a slight protrusion of a bubble beginning to show on the top.  So it seems that I won't make it much further.  Since I am not making pizza tonight, I went ahead and degassed (read that on other posts), and will see what happens.  I will admit that the dough did not exhibit the feel that I was expecting.  The crown of the dough was not dry, but on the leathery side.  Dough was firm, but degassed with some pressures.  The aromas are still very pleasing and not soury or tangy in an unpleasant way.  Do you think that I have prolonged my dough?  Adam
Adam

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2007, 05:19:25 PM »
Adam,

Yeah, it looks like something isn't right. But I would degas the dough anyway to see if that helps matters. This is something I have never had to do because my Lehmann doughs hardly rise at all, or at least in a way that I can visibly tell.

When I am looking for a long dough life, after I prepare the dough with that objective in mind, the typical pattern for my doughs is as follows: When I have finished making the dough, I shape it into a round ball, oil it, and place it in the center of my container, which is usually a metal one with a lid. The round shape of the dough is intentional: I want it to cool down more slowly and to ferment more slowly than if it were flattened into a disk. Using a metal container also plays into that objective. Once the dough goes into the container, the container goes into the refrigerator, at the back. Over the next day or two, the dough ball starts to flatten and spread, but only slightly. If the dough is soft and with a high hydration, it will flatten and spread faster than one that has a lower hydration. After a few more days, the flattening and spreading increases, although there is usually still a space between the perimeter of the dough and the side of the container. Ultimately, the dough spreads enough to touch the side of the container and ride up the side. At this point, it is hard to say whether the dough expanded or not. I would have to use a tall, narrow container to measure that effect.

In some cases, as previously noted, the top of the dough develops spotting and acquires a grayish tone. Thus far, the phenomenon had been limited to high-gluten flour. But, whatever the flour used, I look for the emergence of the bubbles from the upper surface of the dough to serve as an indicator that the dough should be used fairly promptly. Sometimes it is only one bubble, but it can be two or three, maybe about the size of a nickel or a quarter. Even then, I examine the dough carefully. I poke my finger into it to see whether it resists the poking, and I also look to see if the dough is becoming wet or damp. If the dough is still firm and fairly dry, it may last a day or two or three longer even if there is bubbling. I once made a NY style dough following instructions given by member Canadave. I was looking for several days (above 4) out of the dough. But, after 65 hours, the dough looked like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652 (Reply 4). In the succeeding reply, Canadave said the bubbling was normal for his dough formulation. I poked the bubbles with the tip of a sharp knife and then left it alone for the rest of the time. The dough made it to a bit over 5 days, with the final pizza made from that dough looking like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19801.html#msg19801 (Reply 33). So, just because a bubble appears, that isn’t necessarily the end of the world. You have to look at other conditions of the dough, as I mentioned, or else someone like Canadave has to tell you that what you have experienced is normal.

Please keep us informed as to the results you achieve. I have been meaning to make a Lehmann dough and degas it at some point to see what effect that has on the finished results.

Peter