Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 99248 times)

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Offline MWTC

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2007, 10:13:47 AM »
Peter,

Thank-you for the info. on the scale.  Being an Accountant I love things to be exact.  Some call it anal but I love to insure repeatability.  ;D

Another question that I have is about Oil. I noticed the difference in flavor when I use olive oil versus vegetable oil in the dough formulation, the flavor is really noticeable. Have you experimented with dough flavoring as connected to the flavor of different oil types and brands? I read in one of the threads that Classico Olive oil is recommended by a member, any take on this angle? As related to flavoring alternatives.

MWTC   :chef:


Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2007, 10:45:10 AM »
MWTC,

For the doughs I have made and discussed in this thread I have tended to use primarily the Classico olive oil (yellow label). It has a pleasant, but not overpowering flavor. Professionals tend to use vegetable (salad) oils because they are less expensive than olive oils. Very few use extra virgin olive oil in their doughs, but they may use a bit on top of the pizza for richness and flavor. This is one of those areas where you should just experiment with different oils to see which you like the best. As an example, I recently purchased some rice bran oil and plan to do some testing with it, for the reasons given in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4423.msg36927.html#msg36927 (Reply 5).

Peter

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2007, 11:21:38 AM »
For full disclosure on my part, I use rice bran oil as my standard oil, but when I want to blend it 50/50 with an olive oil, I use Tera Extra Virgin Olive Oil.  When I want to use olive oil by itself, I use Lucini Premium Select Extra Virgin Olive Oil because of its explicitly stated ultra-low acidity (0.2-0.4%) and purity.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2007, 08:55:17 PM »
As a factoid, you might want to keep in mind that, according to General Mills, for each 15 degrees F rise in finished dough temperature (up to 100 degrees F), the rate of fermentation doubles.

I think in this case General Mills is oversimplifying the fermentation rate for those who don't want to use a calculator.  When I compare their statement against actual empirical data, it just doesn't fit.  A far more accurate equation to use if you have a calculator would be:

fermentation rate coefficient = sin((T/36)2)
where   fermentation rate coefficient is the percentage (in decimal form) of the maximum fermentative output of the yeast
    and   T is the temperature in degrees Celsius

Example:
rate coef = sin (20/36)2
rate coef = sin (0.555...)2
rate coef = sin 0.3086419753
rate coef = 0.303765063
rate = 30.3765% of maximum

The equation is intended to work within the range of 0°C (32°F) to 63.8°C (146.84°F, thermal cell death) and has been verified within the range of 0°C to 40°C (104°F).  Be sure to have your calculator in radian mode, not degree mode.

- red.november

EDIT: I'm making a graph available to those who want to see the difference between actual data and the two calculation methods (i.e. General Mills and above equation).  The dashed purple line represents a cubic spline interpolation of actual data.  The solid green area represents the General Mills method of calculation.  The solid gray line represents the above equation.

http://www.unclesalmon.com/lib/images/graphs/temp-ferment_rate.png
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 09:29:20 PM by November »

Offline abatardi

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2007, 01:00:27 AM »
That corresponds pretty closely to the old school calcs from the 50's (as seen in the pyler books):

Temp (c) : Max gas production (in mmoles CO2/hr per gram dry yeast) : Time to max gas production in minutes
29 : 20 : 150
31 : 23 : 135
33 : 24.5 : 135
35.5 : 25 : 120
38 : 26 : 90
40 : 22.5 : 75
42 : 20 : 30

This shows max production at around 38 degrees c (100.4 f) with a fairly steep drop after that. 

This is table for "liquid ferments" though.

- aba
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Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2007, 01:29:32 AM »
This shows max production at around 38 degrees c (100.4 f) with a fairly steep drop after that. 

This is table for "liquid ferments" though.

Baker's yeast is much more heat tolerant today (compared to the 1950's) and can proceed very productively into the 40°-50°C range.  The liquid versus dough fermentation makes a pretty good difference too.  The equation I derived was based on several dough tests, some of them mine, two of them from another research group.  Here is a graph of the full range using the the higher precision exponent (2.1057714475):

http://www.unclesalmon.com/lib/images/graphs/thermal-ferment_rate.png

- red.november

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2007, 01:06:34 PM »
I recently conducted some more experiments using the new dough making method described in this thread. I also did a comparative dough experiment using the dough method that I had been using before switching to the new method. The previous method is described in the middle of Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

In all, I did three dough experiments. All three of the doughs were made using only flour, water (room temperature), salt and yeast (IDY). No oil and no sugar. This is basically the set of ingredients recommended by Evelyne Slomon to make the classic NY style pizza. Two of the doughs used all-purpose flour (General Mills Gold Medal), and the third used high-gluten flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot). All doughs weighed about 16 ounces and were subjected to the same dough management. Specifically, once the doughs were made, they were left at room temperature (around 69 degrees F) for about 3 hours, degassed and re-rounded, and then put into covered containers and into the refrigerator for 24 hours. Upon removal from the refrigerator, the dough balls were allowed to warm up at room temperature (around 69 degrees F) for two hours before shaping and stretching out to size (15” and beyond).

The two dough formulations I used were the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (166.25%):
279.66 g  |  9.86 oz | 0.62 lbs
181.78 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
0.7 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.8 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
464.94 g | 16.4 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A
(GM A-P flour version)

and

Flour (100%):
Water (69%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (170.25%):
273.09 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs
188.43 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.73 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
464.94 g | 16.4 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A
(KASL version)

A few comments about the above dough formulations are in order. First, for the two all-purpose doughs, using the two different dough making methods, I used a hydration of 65%. That is high for an all-purpose flour, but I was able to make the doughs without any difficulty using either method. Normally, an all-purpose flour has an absorption rate of around 61% +/- 2%. However, the “operational absorption” used by bakers can be 2-4% more, and, allowing for the possibility of the flour having a reduced moisture content and the effects of room humidity, the flour can frequently tolerate a higher than rated absorption. On this basis, I used 65%. Following the same analysis, I decided to use 69% hydration for the KASL.

Procedurally, I made the doughs by dissolving the salt in the water, then stirring in the IDY (as Evelyne has recommended for a home setting), and then gradually adding the flour, which had been sifted. For the first GM all-purpose dough (GMAP1) and for the KASL dough, I used the combination of whisk, flat beater and the C-hook. For the second GMAP2 dough, I used the former method as referenced in the link above. The finished dough temperatures out of the bowl were 69 degrees F for the two GM doughs, and around 67 degrees F for the KASL dough. To compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl, I increased the ingredient quantities by 2.5%. Doing that produced the final 16-ounce dough ball weights.

In terms of the overall quality of the two all-purpose doughs made using the two different dough making methods, the GMAP1 dough was markedly better than the GMAP2 dough. The GMAP1 dough had exceptional extensibility with a uniform thickness throughout. I was able to stretch out the dough—which weighed only 16 ounces—to 15” with ease. To see how far I could then stretch out the dough, I continued to stretch it out to about 24” inches. At that point, the dough was as diaphanous as the dough shown at Jeff V.’s website. Beyond 24”, the dough started to tear. The best I could do with the GMAP2 dough before it started to tear was around 20”, and the dough thickness was uneven. The first photo below shows the GMAP1 dough at the 18” point. If one looks carefully, the grid pattern of the 18” screen on which the dough was placed can be seen in several places.

Because the GMAP1 and GMAP2 doughs were experimental and solely for comparing the two dough making methods, I did not use them to make finished pizzas. The doughs were simply discarded. The importance of the two tests to me was that the new dough making method has significant merit. The results also suggest that the way a dough is made has a pronounced effect on how it will perform at a later stage. I also now believe that the machine used to make the dough may be the most significant factor in final dough quality, whether it is a DLX or a Santos, or a higher-end KitchenAid with a spiral hook, or my simple KitchenAid mixer with a C-hook using the modified processes. The GMAP1 dough was as good as any I have ever made from the standpoint of handling qualities.

The KASL dough was used to make an actual pizza. That dough also handled well although it was quite extensible, a condition that I attributed to the very high hydration. Even though I had no problems stretching the dough out to 15”, the desired final size, I think it may be better to use a somewhat lower hydration next time, possibly 67%. The second and third photos show the finished pizza using the KASL dough. The toppings were a combination of portobello mushrooms, red and green peppers, and pepperoni. Because the dressed pizza was larger than my pizza stone, I baked the pizza on a dark, anodized pizzatools.com perforated disk (16”) which I placed on a pizza stone that had been preheated on the lowest oven rack position for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. Once the crust set up, I removed the disk and allowed the pizza to finish baking on the stone. The total bake time was around 8 minutes. I am sure that using a pizza screen in the normal method I use will also work well.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 11:17:46 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2007, 10:03:53 AM »
My latest experiment using the new dough making method discussed in this thread was to test the effects of adding the oil to the dough mixture early in the process rather than toward the end, which has been my more or less standard practice (and the one recommended by Tom Lehmann). The idea to incorporate the oil early in the process came from a recent post by member November, who routinely combines oil with water, flour and other ingredients. He notes that the uniformity of incorporation of the oil into the dough is as important as when it is incorporated. What I wanted to test is whether the early incorporation of oil in the dough would hamper hydration of the flour or produce other possible unwanted effects. For purposes of the latest test, I used the following Lehmann dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (168%):
266.26 g  |  9.39 oz | 0.59 lbs
173.07 g  |  6.1 oz | 0.38 lbs
0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.66 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
447.32 g | 15.78 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.1025

Although not indicated in the above table, I used a thickness factor of 0.10 and increased the amounts of the ingredients by 2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl. Doing this increased the thickness factor to 0.1025, as noted in the table.

For purposes of the test, I sifted the flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot), and used the whisk, flat beater and C-hook combination I have been using for the new dough making method. More specifically, I added the water (directly out of the refrigerator, at 41.6 degrees F) to the mixer bowl and, with the whisk attached and the mixer at stir speed, gradually added the flour to the bowl. As the whisk filled up with the batter-like dough and started to groan--after about 2/3 of the flour had been added to the bowl--I added the oil. Since the dough was not stiff at this stage, the oil was easily and uniformly incorporated into the dough, which took about a minute or so. I then replaced the whisk with the flat beater. I then gradually added the rest of the flour along with the yeast (IDY) and salt. As the remaining ingredients were incorporated into the dough, also at stir speed, I concluded that the dough needed a bit more water. I added one teaspoon (which had the effect of increasing the hydration from 65% to 66.8%) and after that was incorporated into the dough, I replaced the flat beater with the C-hook. It took about a minute of kneading by the C-hook, at stir/1 speed, to finish the dough. I then “punched and kneaded” the dough for about 30 seconds, shaped it into a round ball, oiled it, and then placed it in a lidded metal container to go into the refrigerator. The dough weighed 15.7 ounces and had a finished dough temperature of 64.4 degrees F.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for 15 days. Over the course of the 15 days, the dough went through several transformations. It went from a round ball to a flattened disk, and then expanded laterally to fill up the entire bottom of the container, much like a large pancake. At around day 6 or 7, the dough started to develop a spotted effect just below the top surface, giving the dough a grayish coloration. As I discovered before from other experiments, the gray tint to the dough is just at the top surface. The bottom looks normal. The spotting effect gradually increased until the time I decided to use the dough—at day 15. I might add that the dough showed no signs of overfermentation, like protruding bubbles or sagging dough, so that was not the reason I decided to use the dough. I just felt that 15 days was long enough. When I finally shaped and stretched the dough, it behaved quite normally and I concluded that the dough could have lasted at least a few more days. The dough was extensible, but not overly so, and had good windowpaning and a uniform thickness as I stretched the dough out with ease to its final size of 14”.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The toppings were fresh sliced mushrooms, red and green peppers, sweet onion (Texas 1015), and pepperoni slices. As can be seen from the photos, there was plenty of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to ample browning of the crust even though no sugar was added to the dough. I could also detect a mild sweetness in the crust. It was not as pronounced as prior efforts, but there nonetheless.

The pizza was baked directly on my pizza stone (at the lowest oven rack position) which I had preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the stone for about 7 minutes, whereupon I moved the pizza to the upper rack position to finish baking, for about another minute or so. There was good oven spring, with a flavorful and chewy crust. I could not conclude that the flavor of the crust was better at 15 days than one with far fewer days, or at least my palate couldn’t detect it. Of course, the benefit of a 15-day dough is that it can remain in the refrigerator for quite a long time without fear of overrising or overfermenting, and still be of high quality and easily managed. The experiment also confirmed that the oil can be added to the dough in the early stages (e.g., during the whisk stage) and not adversely affect the hydration of the flour or the dough or finished crust.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2007, 10:15:19 AM »
Peter,

Except for the peppers, that looks pretty close to a pizza I baked on Wednesday.

- red.november


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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2007, 10:52:34 AM »
November,

Knowing how you favor room-temperature fermentation over cold fermentation, I am sure you didn't wait 15 days for your pizza ;D.

I also know that you are a big advocate of using oil in a dough, and apportioning the formula oil between the oil used in the dough and the oil on the dough. I recently made a classic NY style pizza (reported earlier in this thread) in which there was no oil in the dough at all, and it seemed to me that I could tell that it was missing when I tasted the crust (which I also thought was low on salt). I suspect that there are some sound principles involved in the way oil is used in a dough formulation, but I wonder if you could explain the rationale behind your use of oil in making pizza dough, and also how one might calculate the apportionment of the formula oil between the inside and outside of the dough, perhaps using the amount of oil I specified in the last Lehmann dough formulation? I'd be more than happy with the CliffsNotes explanation if there is one.

I was also wondering whether the dark spots just under the top surface of the dough were due to the oil, or possibly some effects of oxidation as I opened the container from time to time to inspect the dough. As you know, the bottom of the dough is unaffected, only the top. In fact, in my case, the bottom had a nice, normal yellow coloration, even after 15 days. I even thought to flip the dough over part way through the fermentation period to see what would happen. I decided against it because I didn't want to abort the experiment I was conducting.

Thanks.

Peter

Offline petesopizza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2007, 11:51:14 AM »
The dots in the dough is the yeast dying. or so I have been told. :) A place where I used to work would wait for the dots to appear then use the dough.
Someday I will make money from this obsession.

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2007, 01:49:24 PM »
Knowing how you favor room-temperature fermentation over cold fermentation, I am sure you didn't wait 15 days for your pizza ;D.

Quite right.  I had an onion sprout and grow 4 inches within the last 15 days.  When it takes less time to germinate an onion than it does to have a dough ready for an onion topped pizza, you know you've been holding on to your dough too long.

I also know that you are a big advocate of using oil in a dough, and apportioning the formula oil between the oil used in the dough and the oil on the dough. [...] I suspect that there are some sound principles involved in the way oil is used in a dough formulation, but I wonder if you could explain the rationale behind your use of oil in making pizza dough, and also how one might calculate the apportionment of the formula oil between the inside and outside of the dough, perhaps using the amount of oil I specified in the last Lehmann dough formulation?

From a previous post in the kneading thread:

in the chemical engineering world, oil of various kinds are used extensively as plasticizers. [...]

"Plasticizers work by embedding themselves between the chains of polymers, space them apart (increasing of the "free volume"), and thus [...] making it softer." - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer]

In this case the polymer is the gluten amino acid chain (heteropolymer).  The more the gluten is plasticized, the more hydrostatic pressure it can withstand.  Here's more on plasticized gluten for use in high tensile strength films (coatings):

http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/R1979.htm


Lipids have four major modification characteristics with regard to protein mixtures: protein solubility, water vapor permeability (WVP), tensile strength, and elongation.  Attached is a graph of the various levels of influence oil has on protein.  The green line represents tensile strength at break, the blue line represents WVP, the gray line represents elongation at break, and the orange line represents protein solubility.  Taking into account only the tensile strength and WVP, the vertical line represents the ideal percentage of oil to add for an equally weighted compromise between the two.  The values along the bottom indicate a percentage of the protein percentage in the flour, so if the flour has a protein percentage of 12.7%, then the ideal percentage of oil to add to the flour is 1.58% under these precepts.  The more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.

The ratio of volume-oil versus surface-oil is simply a logical extension of evenly distributing oil throughout the dough ball.  Unless one were to re-knead the dough sometime after oiling the surface, or try to wipe off the oil after rising, that oil can be in a disproportionate quantity which could result in disproportionate browning.  The ratio I use is intended to minimize the effect of having more oil on the surface in relation to the dough ball itself, while still functioning minimally as a barrier to escaping moisture.  It's also intended to prevent excess oil from seeping into the surface of the dough creating a "dead" skin (dead as in uninhabitable by yeast).  I've also attached the formula for determining the ratio.  MOtotal is the total amount of oil for the dough ball, inside and out.  MF is the mass (weight) of the flour.  MOi is the amount of oil to mix in with the dough.  The remainder from subtracting MOi from MOtotal is the amount of oil for the surface.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2007, 02:17:36 PM »
Peter,

I can provide an example based on your latest dough formula, but because I'm pretty sure many people don't include the total amount of oil used in and on their dough, I'm going to use the formula adapted for determining the amount for the surface.  Otherwise it would be 1.93g for use in the dough and 0.73g for use on the surface.  Attached is the formula for determining the surface oil when it is not accounted for in the dough formula.  I purposely used the original formula and marked out deprecated terms to illustrate the adaption.

(36 * pi) / 266 = 0.4251779531
cubed.root(0.4251779531)  = 0.7519522196
0.7519522196 / 2 = 37.6% of the oil used in the dough, which means:
0.3759761098 * 2.66 = 1.00g for the surface

One thing this promotes for sure is consistency, whether the amount of oil used is agreeable or not.

- red.november

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2007, 03:00:31 PM »
November,

Thank you very much.

I just about always include some oil in my doughs and on the outer surfaces so it came to me as a big surprise to find that the all-purpose dough I made the other day and reported on earlier in this thread was perhaps the best, or one of the best, doughs I have ever made in terms of having an almost perfect balance between elasticity and extensibility. And that dough had no oil in it at all, and just a small amount on the outer surface. I might have been happy to give credit to the new dough making method I have been using and writing about, but are there other factors besides oil that might have been involved? The formulation included only flour, water (65%), salt (1%) and yeast (0.25% IDY). The dough did ferment at room temperature for a few hours before degassing and placing it in the refrigerator, but otherwise the dough preparation was fairly standard (salt dissolved in water, flour and IDY added, etc.)

For those who may need an online tool for calculating cube roots, see http://www.csgnetwork.com/cuberootcubecalc.html.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2007, 03:42:47 PM »
Peter,

For one, all-purpose flour is lower in protein which as a result, can't utilize as much oil anyway.  If you were to add oil, you would want it to be lower than for higher protein flours.  Given that you're used to adding oil late in the mixing process, I'm not sure what you could have experienced to have a better handling dough.  I would suggest doing a side-by-side comparison with a hydration of 60-62%, and one ball having a small percentage of oil (added at the same time as the water), with all the other conditions being the same.

By the way, if you lack a cubed root function on your calculator, but have an arbitrary power function (x^y) you can simply raise to the reciprocal of the root (e.g. x^(1/3)).

- red.november

Offline petesopizza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2007, 10:24:52 PM »
pete-zza are you going to perform more ady experiments?
Someday I will make money from this obsession.

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2007, 10:40:39 PM »
pete-zza are you going to perform more ady experiments?

It's likely that I will at some point.

Peter


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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2007, 08:24:20 AM »
Recently, I decided to use the new KitchenAid dough making method to make a Sbarro’s clone dough, as was recently the subject of discussion at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg18163.html#msg18163.

For purposes of the Sbarro’s clone dough, I used the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (2.22%):
Lard (2.5%):
Total (162.97%):
427.94 g  |  15.09 oz | 0.94 lbs
239.65 g  |  8.45 oz | 0.53 lbs
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
8.56 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
9.5 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
10.7 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.47 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
697.41 g | 24.6 oz | 1.54 lbs | TF = N/A

As is my practice with the new KitchenAid dough making method, I increased the quantities of ingredients by 2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. This yielded a final dough weight of a bit over 24 ounces, the targeted dough weight for an 18” pizza. I calculated a thickness factor for the dough formulation of 0.094299 initially, but that increased to 0.0966565 when adjusted to reflect the increase in the quantities of ingredients. The water used for the bulk of the formula water was bottled water out of the refrigerator at 49.5 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 69.7 degrees F.

What I wondered most most about the Sbarro’s dough clone at the outset was how well the new KitchenAid dough making method would work for a 24-ounce dough ball in my basic KitchenAid mixer--which is larger than my typical dough ball weight--together with a hydration of 56%, which is far below the absorption rate (around 63%) of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour that I used. I suspected that I would make greater use of the flat beater and the C-hook, and a higher mixer speed with the C-hook. And, indeed, this was the case, as the following discussion describes.

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the flour and rehydrating the ADY in a small amount (less than ¼-cup) of the formula water which I had preheated to around 105 degrees F. During the time of rehydration of the ADY, a period of about 10 minutes, I added the rest of the formula water (at 49.5 degrees F) to the mixer bowl along with the salt, which I stirred to dissolve. Once the ADY was rehydrated, I added it to the mixer bowl along with the non-diastatic barley malt syrup (Eden brand, from Whole Foods), which is essentially a sugar (sucrose) substitute for purposes of the clone recipe. I gradually added the sifted flour to the bowl, at stir speed, and combined the ingredients using the whisk attachment. While the dough was still somewhat batter-like, I added the lard (Armour brand) and kneaded that into the dough mixture.

Once the whisk started to fill up with dough, I scraped the dough off of the whisk and replaced the whisk with the flat beater, and gradually added the remaining flour at stir/1 speed. It soon became clear, after about a minute or so, that the dough was quite stiff and that I would have to use the flat beater longer than usual. I also found it necessary to stop the mixer to intervene to manually help the dough take on all of the remaining flour. Once that was done, I switched to the C-hook and kneaded the dough at speeds 1-3 (in sequence) for about 5 minutes, or until I could see that the dough was properly and completely kneaded. After about a final minute of hand kneading, I lightly oiled the finished dough ball and placed it in a metal lidded container, which was then placed into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for 24 hours before using.

What the above exercise proved is that it is possible to use the new dough making method to make a fairly stiff dough but that it is necessary to adjust the relative mix/knead times using the three attachments. I found this to be an intuitive, natural exercise to which I adjusted quite easily. The finished dough was of good handling quality and I had no problems shaping and stretching the dough out to 18”, the desired pizza size. The photo below is of the finished pizza. Additional details of the finished pizza are provided at the Sbarro’s thread referenced above.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2007, 01:02:32 PM »
These pizza look really good.  In the next week or so I thought I would give you method a try using the recipe you posted in reply 1.  I want to use Harvest King flour if you think that would be a good flour for a test even though you specified KASL in the reply.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2007, 03:23:40 PM »
Randy,

I don't see any reason offhand why the Harvest King flour can't be used in the method. I routinely substitute bread flour (King Arthur in my case) for the KASL in recipes without changing anything, although on occasion I may drop the hydration percent a bit for the bread flour. I have found that in general I can get better hydration of a flour using the new method than the other methods I previously used.

Peter

Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2007, 10:04:21 AM »
Pete et al,
This is my first post on this forum, so please be patient. I have been lurking in the background for about one month ... reading, learning, wishing, testing, and wishing again!

I am going to attempt the recipe that starts this thread at the end of the week. I do have a yeast question in two parts ...
I have been playing with the Italian cultures from sourdo.com, and I have had some success with making rustic breads. I want to use the "stuff" (preferment?) to create pizza dough. Makes some sense to me. Here are my questions:
1. Is it worth the effort (taste/texture) to use these "cultures?"
2. Is there a conversion factor/table for IDY vs. "the goop?"

FWIW ... I do have a digital scale.

Finally ...
I appreciate all the sharing you folks have done. Really! I have cooked in my electric oven. I have cooked on my BGE. I am in search of that great home pizza, and I think that riding your wake has been a great experience.

Thanks bunches and doughballs,
Peter

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2007, 11:25:53 AM »
zappoman,

It has been my intention from the beginning to try the new dough making method with a natural starter or preferment. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. So, I don't have any idea at the moment as to whether it will work, or how well.

I occasionally read about conversions of commercial yeast to a starter quantity. However, I don't know how such a conversion can be generally relied upon because of the different strains of starters, different strengths, different refreshment methods, different hydrations, etc. You might ultimately be able to come up with such a conversion for your own starter that you can rely on, but it is unlikely to be usable by someone else with a different starter.

Peter

Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2007, 12:14:15 PM »
Peter,

I am amazed and grateful at the sheer volume of information that you generously offer on this site. Thank you.

Moving right along ...
I made a batch of dough following Post #1 in this thread. I made it just two days ago, and it has been in the refrigerator ever since.
Yesterday it appeared "blown" to me ... lots (double) of rise. So I rerolled my little doughballs.
Today ... same thing.
I just rerolled again.
PRIMARY QUESTION: How long can I do this without destroying the finished product?
This causes me to wonder. It appears that I had too much yeast? My digital scale can only measure to the nearest gram, no tenths. I wonder if the "postal" scale that I have needs an upgrade?
SECONDARY QUESTION: Does that seem to be the likely cause?
FINAL QUESTION: Where can I find a "reasonably-priced" scale that might be better suited for pizza-making?

Thanks again,
Peter

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2007, 03:09:58 PM »
zappoman,

Thank you for the kind remarks.

The principal factors that govern the rate and extent of fermentation in a typical dough formulation are the amount of yeast used, the temperature of the finished dough, and the temperature at which the dough is fermented. The temperature of the finished dough is governed principally by the temperature of the water used, the temperature of the flour, and the heat added by mixing. If too much yeast is used, and/or the finished dough temperature is too high, or the dough is stored at too high a temperature, the dough will ferment at a faster rate. To keep temperatures on the cool side, and to extend the useful life of the dough, one should put the dough in the refrigerator as soon as possible after being made and not subject the dough to a period of room temperature fermentation before putting it in the refrigerator, as some prefer to do. Also, one might use a metal container to help cool the dough a bit faster, and place the container toward the back of the refrigerator where it is cooler and less subject to the effects of repeated openings and closings of the refrigerator door.

Unless you have a special scale that can weigh small quantities of lightweight ingredients like yeast, I suggest that you use the volume measurements instead. For flour and water, I definitely recommend that you use a scale, preferably a good digital scale. If I did not already have a digital scale, I would purchase the one recommended by November at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4005.msg33649.html#msg33649 (Reply 3). From some posts I have read, apparently a few members have already heeded November’s advice. Some of the prices I have seen for the recommended unit seem to be very reasonabe for the number and types of features offered.

You didn’t indicate where you live, but if the weather where you live has turned warm recently, as it has where I live outside of Dallas, doughs will have a tendency to ferment faster. Room temperatures will usually be higher but even refrigerator temperatures can be a bit higher. I have already noticed this recently with doughs that I have been experimenting with. To compensate for the warmer temperatures, one should use less yeast, cooler water (even ice water, if necessary), or a combination of both. There are other possible ways of compensating, such as using a lower hydration or more salt, but I would concentrate on yeast quantity and water temperature before resorting to the other possibilities.

I suspect that in your case you may have used too much yeast or the water temperature was too high, or the mixer you used contributed too much heat to the dough. Usually the latter occurs at high mixer speeds or as a result of prolonged kneading. That is one of the reasons why I try to use the lowest mixer speeds and not to knead too long.

There is most likely a practical limit to how many times you can punch a dough down and let it recover, but I don’t know what it is for a Lehmann dough since I don’t think I have ever punched a Lehmann dough down. Usually doughs that can be punched down two or more times contain a lot of yeast, were made using water temperature on the high side, or a combination of both, or the dough was kneaded too long or at too high a mixer speed. It could also happen if your refrigerator compartment was malfunctioning and operating at too high a temperature. That would usually be a rare occurrence and you would soon know it. 

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:20:23 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline zappoman

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2007, 03:56:21 PM »
Wow!
Thank you.
I am humbled!  ;)

Peter