Author Topic: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment  (Read 3772 times)

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Offline ehlaban

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long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« on: January 01, 2007, 09:33:21 AM »
Well i also got started with my quest for the best pizza.
I have to do it with my normal home equipment, but looking at other posts
it seems doable.

After several experiments and days of reading on this board
i haven't come as far as i hoped.

What did i use
- standard electric oven max 250 degrees Celsius - 480 F
- hand kneeding and mixing
- Farina grano tenero Tipo 00 flower

Recipe (i weighted all the ingredients)
250 gram Flour - 100%
150 gram/cc Water - 60%
6 gram salt - 2.4%
6 gram olive oil - 2.4%
little yeast +- 1/5 theespoon - ??%

In my earlier experiments i started with much more but my dough
seems to rise very easily in the fridge and warm as well
so i keep on reducing yeast.

Dough preparation
- In the not too cold/hot water i dissolved the salt
- then i dissolved the yeast
- while mixing i added the flower bit by bit
- when +- 75% was completed i added the olive oil
- i kept on mixing till all the flower was added

- gave the dough a rest/riposo of +- 15 minutes

I then hand kneaded the dough for 25 minutes according to:
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm

I let it rest for 10 minutes before i made two portions of the dough
and put it in plastic containers.

After a 24 hour warm fermentation in my kitchen i opened the boxes
and saw that the dough again had risen much. The dough also showed holes
/bubbles on the bottom and a bulb on top of the dough.

The dough was very sticky and hard to get out. It also was very elastic
so it was hard to stretch, it kept on shrinking back when i tried to create
a lager round.

I put the pizza on a pizza stone in a 250 degree Celcius oven, which was preheated for 1
hour and let it cook for 9 minutes. (another piece of dough was cooked for
7 minutes but that was to short). I only had tomatoes on it for this test.

The result
Well ......

To my pleasure it looked acceptable and the crust also had some browning,
the bottom was also colored by the stone (and olive oil perhaps?)

The taste was horrible, bready, a bit crusty, and it was hard, not a soft pizza.
It also hasn't risen much in the oven.

I include some foto's so you can get an impression.

I don't know how to continue.
I still think i can use less yeast or perhaps
put it on a (bit) colder place for fermentation. I do think the recipe is OK
but would like to hear some feedback. Adding sugar is not needed i
think because the dough rises enough? More water?

Ernesto


Offline November

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2007, 11:01:02 AM »
Ernesto,

My first impression educes the suggestion of using less salt, less kneading, or a little of both.  I would use an amount of salt closer to 4g to reduce the toughness.  At what temperature was your "warm fermentation" performed?

- red.november

Offline abatardi

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2007, 12:17:39 PM »
I've used that kneading technique before with caputo as mentioned on that site and it came out ok... so not sure if that is it or not.  But then again I had way more heat in my oven.  You are using caputo right? 

Hydration looks ok.

I would say maybe 24 hour counter rise is too long?  But that is just my gut feel.  It could've been overproofed.

How did you shape the dough?  In your pic it doesn't look like you shaped it prior to fermentation... so did you make a round and then form the pizza right before putting it in the oven?  This would toughen up the dough and keep it from springing also..

This looks very similar to some of my earliest attempts... don't worry... but what I've figured out (after pretty much coming full circle with my ingredients and recipes back to where I started) is it's more about process and procedure than anything.

- aba
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2007, 12:23:24 PM »
Ernesto,

Can you tell us which brand of 00 flour you used? Some brands of 00 flour do not tolerate long room temperature fermentation times. You may have exceeded the recommended fermentation times for the particular brand of 00 flour you used, particularly at the yeast levels you appeared to have used.

I agree with November that 25 minutes of hand kneading was perhaps excessive. Remember that the Woodstone kneading instructions are for making a sizable number of dough balls, not just two as in your case, which should require a much shorter knead time for most brands of 00 flour. Also, my recollection is that the Woodstone instructions are with respect to the Caputo 00 Red (Rosso) flour (the kind that comes in a red bag), which is the highest protein 00 flour sold by Caputo. Even among professionals in Naples, the Caputo Red is deemed hard to work with and master.

When you removed the dough balls from their containers, did you re-shape or re-knead them into balls again in any way before shaping and stretching? That will cause the dough to become overly elastic and hard to work with. The elasticity can be overcome by allowing the dough balls to rest, but the rest time can easily exceed a few hours to get the dough balls to the point where they can be reasonably handled again.

With a maximum oven temperature of 250 degrees C (480 degrees F), you are bound to experience less than optimal results. 00 flours are best adapted to very high oven temperatures, in excess of 800 degrees F. In a home oven it is difficult to overcome that difference without modifying it as many members have done by defeating the clean cycle mechanism. Can you tell us what size pizzas you made? Sometimes there are ways of getting a softer crust simply by using a thicker dough and/or smaller pizza size.

As for your dough formulation, as you will see from this post, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915/topicseen.html#msg12915 (Reply 4), the amount of salt you used is in line with what is commonly used in Neapolitan style doughs. You didn’t indicate what kind of yeast you are using, but for fresh yeast it is 0.152% of the weight of flour in the abovereferenced dough formulation. For active dry yeast (ADY), it is about 0.076%, and for instant dry yeast (IDY), it is only 0.051%. If you used about 1/5 teaspoon of say, IDY, for 250 grams of flour in your dough formulation, if my math is right that would come to about 0.24%, or about 5 times the recommended amount in the abovereferenced dough formulation. You are talking about only a few grains of IDY if you follow the aboverefernced dough formulation. The amount of yeast you used may have been too much for 24 hours of room temperature fermentation, unless your room temperature was quite low.

I might add that pizzanapoletana does not advocate scaling down a typical Neapolitan dough formulation to a single dough ball size, as he instructed me when I did just that. The numbers might be right, but the final results may not be. In your case, you may want to adapt the amount of yeast you use, based on its type, to accommodate the particular brand and type of 00 flour you are using and its recommended room temperature fermentation time. Whether there should be any adjustment in hydration will depend in part on the particular brand of 00 flour you are using and its recommended absorption rate. I don’t see any need to add sugar to the dough, although it will provide added crust coloration.

Peter

Offline ehlaban

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2007, 02:43:52 PM »
Thanks for the reactions all.

The flour i use is
http://www.molinoagugiaro.it/italiano/5stagioni.htm
http://www.molinoagugiaro.it/italiano/5stagioni-pdf/1tipo-00.pdf

i don't know which type exactly, think the blue one in the pdf, it's very fine 00 Type.

I use instant dry yeast and looking at your calculation too much i quess.

As i make dough for only 2 +- 10" pizza's the ingredients are small.
Wow so i should use only a few grains of IDY then?

The part Pete and abatardi mentioned about the dough balls is interesting.
What i did is the following:
after kneading i made two balls and put them in a small plastic container.
The dough rose so much that it expanded to all sites and then upwards.
So when getting them out, they where very sticky, i had to peel them and shortly
reshape the dough to ball form.

Should the procedure be:??
- put the ball in a wide enough container
- get the balls out and don't reshape
- make a round straight away from the dough and put in oven

What i will do is:
- a little less salt 4 grams looks fine
- kneading 10 minutes?
- wide enough container
- lower fermentation temperature

I do think that the temperature is/was one of the main problems.

Could it be my dough had raised to much and this caused the problems?

Abatardi can you tell a bit more about your lessons learned with respect
to dough handling?

Ernesto

Offline November

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2007, 02:59:51 PM »
The reason I mentioned the salt content was because one of salt's functions is to aid in gluten development.  You were already getting a lot of development from 25 minutes of kneading, so you didn't need salt contributing as much.  Since one of salt's other functions is flavor enhancement, I would only decrease the salt by as little as it takes to compensate for the longer kneading time.  In the case of a 10 minute knead, you could just drop to 5g of salt.

Offline abatardi

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2007, 03:40:25 PM »
Well for pizza dough I usually retard in the fridge for a couple days before I use the balls and don't do a room temp ferment... I shape them before they go in but once they come out if I have to reshape them I will and then let them come up to temperature and proof for about 2 hours or more (my fridge is pretty cold so it usually takes around this long to get to room temp).. So this time also allows the dough to relax.  Then making the skins is very easy and the dough is very extensible.

Making regular bread with a room temp rise though... I usually do an autolyse and short knead and then depending on the yeast a 3 to 6 hour room temp ferment... and a couple times during that I will fold the dough to help develop the gluten, leaving a good couple hours at the end without handling it.  At the end of that you shape it and let it proof for a half hour or so before baking it off. 

So there really is a lot of patience and time involved... THAT was my biggest mishap when I first started making pizza... I would want to rush things and didn't give the dough enough time to rest and all that... and I still do that sometimes and it will definitely show up in the finished result.

But yeah I think you might've just let that dough go too long for the amount of yeast you used.

- aba
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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2007, 04:40:26 PM »
Ernesto,

I took a look at the specs for the Agugiaro 00 flour you think you have been using. I used the English version of the flour specs as found at http://www.molinoagugiaro.it/english/5stagioni-pdf/1tipo-00.pdf.  If you indeed used the 00 flour with the blue graphics, the Superior (Superiore) Flour, you will note that the “ideal” rising time for a dough made with that flour is 8-13 hours. The Superior Flour is made from U.S. and Canadian flours and has a protein content of 13%, and the rated hydration is 57%. If that is the flour you have been using, it should tolerate a fair amount of hand kneading. You might want to consider lowering the hydration a bit, maybe by a couple percent. Often, users of 00 flours in a home environment try to use the same amounts of water as used in a commercial environment, only to discover that they end up with a crust that is too hard and like a cracker. Member pizzanapoletana discussed this possibility at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg11838/topicseen.html#msg11838 (Reply 21).

I think I would use the procedures you outlined in your last post, but use a shorter fermentation time. The amount of yeast is harder to determine. pizzanapoletana tried to address this issue in this post, at about the middle: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8959/topicseen.html#msg8959 (Reply 23). Since the dough formulation I earlier referenced is intended for extended room temperature fermentation (sometimes in excess of 18 hours), you might start by halving the amount of yeast you previously used and go with a room temperature fermentation of 8-13 hours. The counter rise should be at an ideal temperature of 18-20 degrees C (64.4-68 degrees F). If your kitchen is warmer or cooler than that range, you can adjust the amount of yeast or the water temperature to compensate, or use a shorter or longer rise period.

I think I would also use a larger amount of dough per pizza than you have been using, maybe something close to 250 grams for a 10” pizza. That should produce a softer, more chewy crust simply because it will be thicker. I wouldn’t bake the pizzas until the crust at the rim takes on a lot of color since that is hard to do in a home oven without having the crust turn hard because of the prolonged bake time. These are areas that you will have to experiment with, especially given the low maximum oven temperature of your home oven.

I noticed after my last post that abartardi posted just before I did. I try not to reshape or otherwise handle a room temperature fermented dough unless I am using a natural preferment and the overall period of fermentation/ripening is long enough to allow me to divide and reform the dough. I treat the dough gently and just shape it out to the desired size.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Offline ehlaban

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2007, 05:36:30 PM »
Mmm this is interesting, i indeed use the Superiore flower.

Is there also such a info sheet for the Caputo blue and KASL flowers,
i looked on the molino and king arthur sites but didn't see them?

Things come together for me now with regard to the rising times and hydration rates
for the different flowers as mentioned on this board. I love this kind of info.

If this flower has the same caracteristics as Caputo, well higher
protein, then it indeed is in general a 'same day flower' with warm rise.

Have made a new dough before i read your comments and will post the results.

Ok, will try the 250 gram per pizza as well with the shorter fermentation time.

Thanks all, Ernesto

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2007, 06:42:27 PM »
Ernesto,

I don’t recall seeing the specs for the Caputo Extra Blu, but some of the specs for other 00 flours, and for the KASL as well, can be seen here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328 (Reply 17). You can also see a bit more on the KASL flour here: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/85e624febf29e4c7836066cc68c71648/miscdocs/BFS%20Specs%20-%20Customer%20Copy.pdf. From the specs, it looks like the Superiore flour you are using is closer to the Caputo Red, which is one of the reasons I suggested that the Superiore flour might tolerate a fair amount of hand kneading. I say that somewhat cautiously because I have had very limited experience with the Caputo Red before, and none with the Superiore flour. Flours with similar characteristics on paper can be different in actual practice.

As best I can tell, the Caputo Extra Blue is a lower protein flour, at around 9.5%, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the gluten content is deficient, as noted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg22552.html#msg22552 (Reply 239).

Peter


Offline grovemonkey

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2007, 07:45:05 PM »
My oven goes to 250C and your results look similar to mine.  I changed my dough and got big differences (I'd say the dough name but it's in Japan).  That dough is around 13.8 % protien.  My previous experiements with lower percentage doughs had similar results as to what you are getting.  I think if you pull the dough out of the plastic containers you have and the dough looks all out of shape, I'd just reshape it into a ball and let it re-rise, I did this a few times and it took about 2 hours to raise up but the results were good.  It will take at least an hour for the dough to warm up to room temp anyways, you can try both and see what results you get. 

The other thing I was wondering about was your technique for stretching and shaping the dough.  I don't know much about this but I wonder if someone else could comment on how dough shaping affects the final result?  what are you doing in particular?

Offline vitus

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2007, 04:04:50 AM »
The other thing I was wondering about was your technique for stretching and shaping the dough.  I don't know much about this but I wonder if someone else could comment on how dough shaping affects the final result?  what are you doing in particular?
My thoughts exactly. By the look of the bubbles in the crust I would guess that one of the problems is in fact dough shaping.
I you look at for example this image of one of Pete's slices http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5304.html#msg5304 the bubbles are larger and more horizontal. I believe that this is among other things due to the stretching technique. Simply put; starting with a small ball of dough with tiny round bubbles, a desirable dough stretching technique would be one that keeps the bubbles intact (eg. no rolling pin) and just pulls them long and horizontal.
Hope that it makes sense.

Offline ehlaban

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2007, 04:30:49 AM »

The other thing I was wondering about was your technique for stretching and shaping the dough.  I don't know much about this but I wonder if someone else could comment on how dough shaping affects the final result?  what are you doing in particular?

Good question. What i understand from reading this forum and this page
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_pizza.htm

is that after fermentation you should "push and stretch" the dough without kneading
into the desired shape. If you upset the dough to much as i did with peeling it out of the box
and reshaping, it gets to elastic.

Well this is how i understand it till now.

Ernesto

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2007, 01:06:41 AM »
well I just did a cold rise with 3 pizza dough balls.. they are huge already, I used a good amount of yeast.. probably too much.  so when I took the dough ball out.. it was huge and airy.  I just shaped it into a ball and let it rest for about one hour (lightly oiled) till it got up to room temp.  In fact, my house is cold now so I took some hot water and put it in a pan underneath the bowl the dough ball was resting in.  it took about 45 minutes and it started to rerise again.  that pizza turned out good, nothing spectacular cause I didn't give my pizza stones a lot of time to heat up, but worked out fine.  I snapped some photos of it so I can upload it if you want to see what it looked like.  I don't get big airy pizza like some people do, not 100% sure why but it is at least browing up on the sides and is good.  I'd like to try my dough in a hotter oven and see what happens, for me that is the most interesting thing i want to try. 

As for stretching the dough.  I just flour up the surface, work the ball until it's a decent size, I then keep my right hand in place while the left stretches counter clockwise on the table.  Stretching a little at a time until it's fairly round and even.  I'll do this until I get the desired thickness and size.  if there any good video's out there, I'd love to see them.

Offline ehlaban

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2007, 03:37:50 AM »
Well i also finished my second experiment.

- less salt, 4 grams
- colder en shorter fermentation, but still 24 h
- again less yeast
- 10 minutes of kneading

2 balls, one 9 minutes in the, for 1 hour preheated, oven with
pizzastone and one for 7 minutes

Again i didn't like the result.  I'm really thinking about going to Naples
en NY to see how it should taste like. Regardless of that the pizza
didn't rise much and the crust was not to hard but not tasty.
I'm beginning to doubt the temperature in my oven.

My next experiment is with cold fermentation.

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2007, 03:41:28 AM »
http://picasaweb.google.co.jp/grovemonkey/2007_01_03 here are some of my photos of pizza created at 250C using a overnight fermentation.  Take a look.  I am open to any advice.

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2007, 03:58:09 AM »
my exact recipe for this is:

202.03 g of flour (13.8% protien)
127.65 g of water
1/2 teas of oil (non-olive)
3.55 g of salt or 5/8 teaspoon
.81 g of yeast (I'm using Saf-Levure Active Dry Yeast) or 1/4 teaspoon but sometimes I double it to 1/2 teaspoon

I warm the water, add the salt and completely disolve it and then add the yeast at 40C for 6-10 min.  I then add the 3/4 the flour and mix it with a wooden spoon until it's all blended.  I then let it wait for 25 minutes and then add the rest of the flour plus the oil.  I'll then take the dough out after I have mixed in the flour and oil and work the dough ball. 

I never add more flour to the doughball when I knead the dough mass and at first the dough mass is really sticky (63% hydration) and sticks to everything but after about 10 minutes that will all go away if you knead/fold the dough.  All the stickiness fades till it is just lightly sticky and around that point I figure the dough is just about done. 

At that point I will oil the ball and put the ball into an oiled container (lightly) and then to the refrig or I will let it rise for 1 or 2 hours and cook it. 

Personally, I don't think you need to go to naples, just mess with the ingrediants and quantities.  Your not going to produce naples style pizza at 250C so don't bother hoping for it.  Just stick with a NY Style pizza until you get an oven that can get up to 750 F plus.  Just my newbie 2 cents.

Offline ehlaban

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2007, 06:04:36 AM »
The pizza's in the pictures look pretty well.
It looks like your crust/rim has risen also reasonable.

I'm now trying overnight fermentation in the fridge
for my new batch. Looks like the way of preparing is almost the same
as how i do it. In the recipe your using a higher protein and
and different dough. It looks like since i use tipo 00 (caputo kind of)
it gets harder to make a decent pizza.

Your and mine pizza's indeed look much The same, your rim
has risen more i think.

How long do you put the pizza's in the oven?

Ernesto

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2007, 06:24:09 AM »
10 minutes tops.  i rotate the pizza around the 7-8 minute mark after the browning starts on one side. 

Try making a small pizza and see how the crust goes.  Maybe play with the thickness of your crust.  I'd also try not doing an overnight ferment but maybe a 1 hour rise and see what happens.  Before I changed my flour brand and my yeast type, my crust wasn't very good, at least I thought, I'm going to go back and try different flours.  I've got a few experiements I want to try with different flour to narrow down some different variables.  I really think more heat is probably a big problem, mixing is probably a whole other issue too.  Pete is the authority on all this, I think he's experimented extensively.

Offline ehlaban

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Re: long and hard road to perfection, newbie with normal equipment
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2007, 06:38:09 AM »
Ok, thanks.

Changing flour will be my next step as i think this will help.
Yes Pete-zza has definitely an enormous amount of testing experience.

What kind of oven do you use? I noticed that when i turn on
the fan in my hot air oven the crust gets more brown but
crackier. When turning on bottom and op heat it gets better.

Ernesto


 

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