Author Topic: Hybrid Fermentation  (Read 5837 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2007, 01:27:07 PM »
When we are ready to use the 6 hour counter rise before the bake, does that change with the aging of doughs on preceding days. Or is it always 6 hours no matter how old the dough is?

The six hours is intended to finish the fermentation as well as give it plenty of time to come to room temperature.  No matter how short the other stages are reduced to, the minimum recommended time is three hours for stage 3.  I don't think you would want to lengthen the six hours in the case where you want to lengthen the previous two stages, but I also don't think you want to lengthen the first two stages.  Any longer than 24 + 48 hours and the dough will become over-fermented.

What was the flour that you used in the photo?

King Arthur Bread Flour, adjusted to 14% protein using Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten.  It would be roughly equivalent to Sir Lancelot flour.

- red.november


Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2007, 01:57:59 PM »
So, no matter how old the dough is, 1 day for stage 1, and, 2 more for stage 2, it's used on day 4, per your  protocol. If, I have 3 more doughs in the fridge for the next three days, I still use the  6 hour counter rise with a minimium of 3 hrs, right?

I'll try this Hybrid and report back when its through.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 02:11:10 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2007, 03:18:54 PM »
One more question.  :-D

I have a Kitchen Aid Pro 5 Mixer, with 10 speeds. Which one would be 220 rpm?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2007, 03:24:00 PM »
So, no matter how old the dough is, 1 day for stage 1, and, 2 more for stage 2, it's used on day 4, per your  protocol. If, I have 3 more doughs in the fridge for the next three days, I still use the  6 hour counter rise with a minimium of 3 hrs, right?

I don't know what you mean by "no matter how old the dough is" when strictly following the method, the dough will always be 36 hours old by the time you remove it from the refrigerator.  I also don't know what you're asking with regard to 3 more doughs in the fridge.  Unless the dough you have already is the dough being discussed in the original post of this thread, you can let it rise on the counter for however long you want.  The six hour long stage 3 is just for this dough making method.  I mentioned a minimum of three hours only because it usually takes that long for dough to reach room temperature all the way to the center of the dough ball, obviously depending on how cold one's refrigerator is.

- red.november

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2007, 03:51:41 PM »
I have a Kitchen Aid Pro 5 Mixer, with 10 speeds. Which one would be 220 rpm?

I hope you have a stopwatch or a manual, because I don't know.  I don't own a mixer like that.  If it's slow enough to count the revolutions on speed 1, use a watch to time out 10 seconds while you count the revolutions.  Then multiply the revolutions you counted by 6.  The chances are good that each speed increases by that much all the way up to 10.  If the revolutions are too fast to count, you have no choice but to use speed 1 and reduce the time you mix.  Be sure to use the flat beater attachment or the C-dough hook if you don't have a flat beater/paddle.  The RPM isn't as important as simply accomplishing the goal of stirring the mixture thoroughly without whipping more air into it or beating all the gas out of it.  If you feel you can better accomplish this by hand with a spoon, you could just stir it manually.

This isn't Apollo 13, so nothing is going to go horribly wrong if it isn't stirred just right.

- red.november

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2007, 04:02:36 PM »
What I'm saying is, If I use your method and the batch of dough produces 4 doughs and I only need to use one of the four for that nights pizza, I will take 1 out of the fridge and allow the 6 hour counter rise. Then I will bake it and enjoy it.That will leave 3 doughs still in the fridge for the next day, which I will take one out and allow the six hour counter rise to happen then bake it. The following day I will take out the 3rd dough and do the counter rise and bake it. The last dough will be used on the last day and I will allow the 6 hour rise and bake it. So on each day past the first one that I used it, it is still fermenting in the fridge. So I'm asking if on each succeeding day is the 6 hour counter rise still necessary or does it need adjusting to the current age of the dough?

Or are you saying that We must use the dough on the 4th day and no leftover doughs are possible?

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 04:12:53 PM by MWTC »

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2007, 04:16:59 PM »
To all,

For those who are computer savvy, don't own a strobe light, and want to know the exact RPM for each speed on their mixer or anything that has a motor (which I find is useful information to have on hand):

1) Place your mixer within reach of a good quality directional microphone that's connected to your computer.
2) Tape a piece of stiff plastic or heavy paper (like a playing card) to the bowl so that it's in the path of the flat beater attachment's rotation (obviously you'll have to be creative if it's not a mixer).
3) Turn on your recording software and your mixer.
4) Record the audio for at least several seconds while making sure there are no other sounds being made.
5) Open the recorded audio file in an application that displays the waveform of the audio. (It may be the same application.)
6) Count the number of signature audio spikes in the recording for a full second, or however long is needed to determine the RPM.*
    * Remember to divide by two if using a flat beater attachment since the beater hits the card twice.

For owners of planetary mixers, depending on the planetary RPM, you may not be able to capture a full second in between passes hitting the card.  You'll just have to be very precise in accounting for the milliseconds between two spikes.  Most software will have a feature where you select a portion of the waveform and it will tell you how many milliseconds you've selected.  This is how you'll have to determine the RPM.

- red.november

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2007, 04:19:59 PM »
MWTC,

You risk over-fermentation if you keep it around too long, even in the refrigerator.  If you keep the dough in your refrigerator for longer than 2 days, definitely don't worry about a six hour bench rise.  Just use the dough as soon as it reaches room temperature.

- red.november

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2007, 04:33:53 PM »
Ok, that makes sense. I thought 6 hours on each succeeding was excessive. But I wasn't sure.  ::)

MWTC  :chef:

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2007, 04:43:03 PM »
That would be excessive.  Even though you might get away with taking certain liberties, this whole process was designed for completion in 3.25 days.  I almost never make more dough than what I plan on using at one time, so I didn't understand why you were talking about another 3 dough balls.  I bake two pizzas (a single dough batch) at one time and refrigerate the other pizza, because it's more efficient to bake everything at once and refrigerate leftovers than to heat up an oven for each pizza.


Offline Wazza McG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 95
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia.
  • Aussie Aussie Aussie .... Oi Oi Oi !!
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2007, 04:29:55 AM »
November,

Are there any flavour enhancer enzymes out there that are ready available to the average Joe Blow? and would it better if I let the enzymes do their thing with the flour before putting in the yeast when considering a long or short ferment?  That way as soon as the ferment has peaked it is time to make up the pizza?

The only handy enzyme I am aware of is lipoxygenase which is found in soy flour.  This enzyme will apparently bleach the flour.  Flour that contains a yellowish pigment that will be broken down by the  lipoxygenase.  As a result one will obtain a whiter crumb.  I haven't tried this yet but I am about to - any hints on what percentage of soy flour to achieve the whitish results in a soy/high gluten mix?

Regards,

Wazza McG
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2007, 05:15:15 AM »
Are there any flavour enhancer enzymes out there that are ready available to the average Joe Blow?

I know of texture altering enzymes such as cellulase and protease available to the average joe.  These are the same enzymes you find in health food stores and nutrition isles for digestive aids.  Adding sweetness enhancing enzymes such as amylase, would be just more of what's already in the flour.  I'll get back to you on any novel enzymes you could use, but finding them in average foods, and in useful quantities, is the challenge.  Most of the novel enzymes I'm aware of are found in such small quantities, you would need to use so much of the food additive, that the flavor of the food additive would overpower your dough.  The food additives I've talked about before on this forum like oat sprouts would give your dough an enzyme boost, but you'll probably have to order items like that online.

would it better if I let the enzymes do their thing with the flour before putting in the yeast when considering a long or short ferment?  That way as soon as the ferment has peaked it is time to make up the pizza?

It all depends on how much flavor you want.  The more flavor you want, the earlier you add the enzymes.  You do have to consider what flour you're working with though.  Some flours won't be able to take indefinite hydration.

The only handy enzyme I am aware of is lipoxygenase which is found in soy flour.  This enzyme will apparently bleach the flour.  Flour that contains a yellowish pigment that will be broken down by the  lipoxygenase.  As a result one will obtain a whiter crumb.  I haven't tried this yet but I am about to - any hints on what percentage of soy flour to achieve the whitish results in a soy/high gluten mix?

Just from the nomenclature, I can tell lipoxygenase is an enzyme that works on converting lipids and oxygen into something else (a hydroperoxide in this case).  So the only thing being "bleached" is fat.  There isn't much fat in bread flour (about 1.7%) and even less in high-gluten flour, but soy flour usually has quite a bit of fat (about 21.4%), so that's likely where the lipoxygenase action will take place.  Taking this into consideration, there isn't any amount of soy flour you could add to achieve "whitish results."  I've used soy flour on several occasions and have only noticed a slight change in texture and flavor.  It might be something worth trying just so that you know how the flavor is altered, but don't expect a bleaching action.

- red.november

Offline Wazza McG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 95
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia.
  • Aussie Aussie Aussie .... Oi Oi Oi !!
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2007, 06:26:22 PM »
To give you another scenario on suggested flavour enzymes you may recommend.  Would it be suitable to add them to my spare Camaldori culture so they ripen together when fed? 

Being a layman in this area I have no idea how the enzymes work.  Do they have a similar growth to yeast?  Does the yeast and enzyme growth compliment each other or should I have a combo enzyme culture stand alone?

I would be interested in your thoughts on how to add flavour or texture altering enzymes to a poolish.  Many thanks  :D

To give you a heads up on why I asked these question - I had been researching about food additives that are available to the food industry that are not readily available to the normal shopper.

This is also a follow on from this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2958.0.html from last year.

Regards,

Wazza McG

Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline charbo

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Location: Northern California
  • Wheat
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2007, 07:23:51 PM »
One can find pectinase at most hobby winemaking stores.  Have never used it.

cb

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2007, 01:06:28 AM »
Would it be suitable to add them to my spare Camaldori culture so they ripen together when fed?

Since there are already enzymes in your culture, I see no reason why you can't add more.  Assuming you're talking about digestive enzymes, your main benefit will be that the sweetness of the culture will tend to increase.  You really could accomplish that just by adding diastatic malt like you mentioned in the other thread, or another nutritive sweetener.  There are enzymes that perform glycolysis-like reactions that would be great for what you want, but they are hard to get.

Do they have a similar growth to yeast?  Does the yeast and enzyme growth compliment each other or should I have a combo enzyme culture stand alone?

There is no enzyme "growth" as you put it.  Enzymes are specialized proteins created by organisms large (macro) and small (micro) for the purpose of catalyzing digestive and intercellular (metabolic pathway) reactions.  The genetics of the organism determine what enzymes are created and where.  With regard to digestive enzymes, organisms (e.g. humans, animals, plants, fungi) produce enzymes to help cleave (break apart) long chains of molecules that come from other plant, animal, etc. matter, into smaller molecules so that they can be absorbed into the system.  Fruit and seed bearing plants also store enzymes to catalyze the production of food for potential germination.  The wheat berries that are ground into wheat flour for example, contain enzymes such as amylase, which following due course, will start to break down the starch into glucose once water is added to the flour.

I would be interested in your thoughts on how to add flavour or texture altering enzymes to a poolish.

I'm still working on a novel flavor enzyme for you that can be acquired by the average person.  If you don't mind purchasing just enzymes from some biochemical supplier, I could recommend several, but it's usually pretty expensive to go that route.  You could try xylanase which can be found in some dough conditioners.  That's more likely to offer you a "bleached" crumb than most enzymes, since it's used to bleach wood pulp.  The texture altering enzymes would be an interesting thing to witness for a culture.  The kind of texture altering I'm referring to is mainly that of extensibility.  By using a combination of cellulase and protease, you can turn a perfectly good dough ball into slime.  I see nothing wrong with that for a culture, and in fact, it might be a very good thing as it gives the yeast and other enzymes more mobility.

One can find pectinase at most hobby winemaking stores.

That might be useful if there was actually an appreciable amount of pectin in flour.  Typically, only hanging fruits contain pectin.

- red.november

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2007, 10:42:41 AM »
November,

A while back I was working with Bev Collins to find something to add flavor to Pillsbury Balancer High Gluten flour which I found unflavorful. I asked her what I could add to the flour to add some flavor. She said that the Ash content was a major contributor to the flavor, and seeing that the flour was plain in taste she recomended that I buy a flour that was the highest in ash content to add some flavor. The flour is sold by King Aurthur is called Clear Flour. At that time I was also using KASL and it was wonderful, so I never used the Balancer or tried the Clear Flour. What is your take on the increase in ash content in aiding flavor?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2007, 01:32:50 PM »
MWTC,

Ash content is just another way of expressing mineral content.  The higher the ash content, the more of the whole grain remains after milling, and not just the endosperm.  That's why whole grain flour is very high in minerals.  As I've said before, a higher mineral content is going to be in your favor because yeast need minerals to function properly.  As far as the flavor that it adds directly, you might consider the difference between molasses (very high in minerals) and processed granulated cane sugar (almost no minerals).  It's obvious that minerals can add flavor, but it's a matter of opinion whether that flavor is desirable.  First clear flour is a great flour, but it's usually only available to professional bakers.  Besides the mineral content, the protein level is around 15%.

- red.november

EDIT: One way of avoiding sweeteners when wanting to add extra minerals and other micro-nutrients, is to start with water, yeast, and vital wheat gluten (VWG) in exchange for the usual flour.  VWG is also high in ash content.  If the extra gluten is not really wanted, it can be broken down with the addition of papain and/or bromelain.  It's best to find a source for either without additives.  You can find them sold together as a digestive aid, or just papain by Adolph's as a meat tenderizer.  You just have to take into consideration the salt content in the tenderizer.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 02:05:51 PM by November »

Offline Wazza McG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 95
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia.
  • Aussie Aussie Aussie .... Oi Oi Oi !!
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2007, 05:42:54 PM »
I suppose the main point I am searching for here is to reduce the ferment time - possibly significantly, by adding extra flavour enzymes or handy additives to a poolish resulting in a flavoursome pizza that does not take days to prepare.

There is an interesting article here called Fermentation Control and Adjustments in Fermentation Time that discusses gas production and gas retention. They talk about getting the peaks together to get the best out of any given flour.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm

Regards,

Wazza McG
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2007, 06:41:23 PM »
Wazza McG,

The two things you just mentioned are in conflict with one another.  Reducing fermentation time in terms of gas production and in terms of flavor are very separate things.  If you want more flavor, you either have to add it, or take the time penalty.  If you want more gas production, you either have to add more yeast, or take the time penalty.

I've read the linked article before, and while there is an optimum timeframe for gas retention, it comes at the expense of flavor again.  The longer you let your dough ferment, the less gas it's going to be able to retain due to alcohol and organic acids breaking down the gas-impermeable membrane of the gluten structure.

When you first started asking about enzymes, I thought you were just wanting to reduce the amount of time your starter needed to get to the point of making a dough from it while possessing a stronger flavor, but technically your dough fermentation time will still remain the same unless you use a lot of starter.  If you use a lot of starter, then it isn't necessary to make it overly flavorful.  In light of all your questions, I'm not sure how much flavor you want in relation to fermentation time.  It sounds like you want the flavor to develop almost entirely in the starter, but why then mention fermentation time?  Is this somehow a related goal?

- red.november

Offline Wazza McG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 95
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia.
  • Aussie Aussie Aussie .... Oi Oi Oi !!
Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2007, 07:38:53 PM »
The timings of the peaks has always intrigued me and I am fairly sure I have only achieved it once - probably by chance.  Conditions vary, flours vary and I was trying to avoid the time penalty for flavour. 

The thinking process was to use flour, water and any handy enzymes and/or additives to accelerate a flavoursome mix for a period of time and then spike it with yeast to get the gas production / gas retention timely. 

The other line of thought was to have flour, water and an enhanced Camaldori culture that had extra beneficial enzymes/additives in it that would reduce the overall time to make a flavoursome pizza.  A higher percentage of culture may be required to achieve this.

I have no problems waiting for dough to produce good flavour and texture, however, the sooner I can get at it the better  ;D

Regards,

Wazza
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!