Author Topic: Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method  (Read 10199 times)

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Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« on: February 01, 2007, 01:01:01 PM »
What follows is a poolish-based dough recipe I have been using and testing.

I have a Kitchen Aid Professional 5 Plus, 450 watt, 5 qt bowl with the fantastic spiral dough hook (so much better than the C hook for kneading). The poolish-based recipe is this one:

800 grams All Trumps flour
480 grams water = 60% hydration
36 grams sugar = 3 TBS
10g olive oil = 2.5 tsp
5.4 grams salt = 1 tsp
1.8 gram ADY = 1/2 tsp

Dissolve ADY in 200 gram of water at 105 degrees, let set for 10 minutes

Poolish:

Mix 200 gram of the All Trumps flour, plus the 3 Tbs sugar and the dissolved ADY in the water. Beat for up to 1 min.

Cover in bowl with plastic wrap for 4 hours. Until bubbles appear all over top of poolish.


Add remaining water, 280 grams, cold, right out of fridge, 38.5 degrees, plus the salt and oil. Slowly stir to dissolve the salt, then add the remaining flour.

Knead with spiral hook on speed 2 for 4-5 minutes.

Divide dough into chosen sizes and cover and place in fridge. Temp. going into fridge = 70 degrees.

Let cold ferment for 72 hours.

I used one of the 14 oz doughs with this method at the 10 day point and it was still excellent.


Without the poolish the flavor isn't as good, adds much to the end results.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 11:29:39 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 08:33:04 PM »
MWTC,

Thank you for posting your poolish-based dough recipe. I have been studying different preferments for some time and see them as an effective way of adding flavor and other positive attributes to a pizza crust. As you know from my comments elsewhere on the forum, I am very interested in how you have been able to achieve doughs with a lifespan of several days—10 days with your latest dough using the poolish-based dough formulation. To study your formulation, with the hope of divining how you achieved a dough lifespan of 10 days, I converted your dough recipe to the following format:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
Salt (0.675%):
ADY (0.225%):
Oil (1.25%):
Sugar (4.5%):
Total (166.65%):

 

800 g  |  28.22 oz | 1.76 lbs
480 g  |  16.93 oz | 1.06 lbs
5.4 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
1.8 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.22 tsp | 0.74 tbsp
36 g | 1.27 oz | 0.08 lbs | 9.03 tsp | 3.01 tbsp
1333.2 g | 47.03 oz | 2.94 lbs | TF = N/A
  
Looking at the above data prompts me to ask you about the yeast quantity you used. You indicated that you used ¾ teaspoon of ADY, whereas my numbers suggest something less than ½ teaspoon. To be on the safe side, I weighed 1.8 grams of ADY (SAF brand) on my MyWeigh 300-Z scale and got a bit less than ½ teaspoon, not ¾ teaspoon. The difference ordinarily wouldn’t be terribly significant but since you added the sugar to the poolish along with the yeast the difference may be an important consideration. More specifically, when you added the sugar and yeast to the flour and water to form the poolish, the sugar had a baker’s percent of 18% (36/200 = 18%). As noted in this King Arthur article, http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/yeast.html, once you get above 9% sugar there is a reduction in the rate of fermentation because of osmotic pressure as sugar, which is a hygroscopic substance, and the yeast compete for the available water (along with the flour).

I have also read that there is an optimum ratio of sugar to yeast of 3:1, at http://www.classofoods.com/page1_4.html (see the penultimate paragraph under sugar, at 1.4.2). In your case, the sugar/yeast ratio in the poolish and in the total formula is 20, assuming 36 grams of sugar and 1.8 grams of yeast. I can’t vouch for the validity of the 3:1 ratio since I have not seen it anywhere else but the referenced article. So, the lack of confirmation is an issue. However, I do note that one of our members, DINKS, a baker by training, periodically rails against dough recipes in which the quantity of sugar is much greater than the amount of yeast (see, for example, the middle of Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3480.msg29500.html#msg29500).

It is quite possible, I suppose, that the high levels of sugar may have suppressed the yeast and, hence, the rate of fermentation such that the lifespan of the dough was extended beyond what might have been considered normal. I originally thought that the use of the cold water as part of the final mix may have been a factor, but since you indicated that the finished dough temperature was 70 degrees F, I ruled that out as a factor. And, if your refrigerator was operating at a normal temperature, I didn’t see that as a factor either.

An interesting experiment would be to repeat the recipe but leaving the sugar out of the poolish. Normally, by definition, a poolish includes only flour and water, in equal amounts by weight (i.e., 100% hydration), and all or part of the total formula yeast. You might also revisit the amount of yeast you have been using just to have the right numbers to analyse your situation.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 10:26:05 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 10:09:48 PM »
Peter,

I found one last dough in the fridge, in the back, it still looked good.  So I baked it. It turned out very good. I checked my notes and sure enough, I only baked 2 of the 3-14 oz. doughs. That makes that dough 13 days old. I was surprised it was still very good. I made that dough on 1/19/07 and just baked that one today 2/1/07. I have a small 4oz. dough left. I made 3-14oz. and 1-4oz. in that batch. I double checked my notes and sure enough thats what I made. I got distracted with Glutenboy's dough formulation. I can bake that last mini dough any day, do you want me to wait till 15 days to see what happens to that last mini 4oz dough?

I'll post the pictures tomorrow.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 10:19:30 PM »
MWTC,

I'd say go for it. There is little to lose.

Can you also check your notes on the actual amount of ADY you used?

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 10:44:47 PM »
Just did. I did, as I did when I made the dough. I took a 1 tsp. measuring spoon and knocked out as I did before and called it 3/4 tsp and weighed it out, it was 1.8 grams. Checked against a 1/2 tsp. level Red Star Active Dry Yeast. And weighed that and guess what, 1.8 grams. So I changed the original formulation to 1/2 tsp. ADY.

Beautiful.

Nice eye Pete-zza !!!    Love the attention to detail.  ;D

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 10:08:29 AM by MWTC »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 10:56:51 PM »
MWTC,

I appear to be missing something. When I weighed out 1.8 grams of ADY on my small scale and put it into my 1/2 teaspoon measuring spoon, it did not fill the measuring spoon. When I converted 1.8 grams of ADY using my standard conversion data, I got a bit less than 1/2 teaspoon. So the numbers were consistent. How did you get to 1 teaspoon?

Also, I'd be very interested in how the doughs looked after 10 or more days and how they handled during shaping and stretching. For example, did the doughs rise much over time, did they take on a greyish color on the surface, and were they overly extensible, free of thin spots, etc.? Any other noteworthy details would be appreciated, including texture and taste characteristics.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 07:22:59 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 10:57:20 AM »
Peter,

Typo, sorry. :-[  I corrected the error.

The dough looked almost the same as the younger doughs. It handled the same also. No real change. The flavor was just a little weaker, so it must be about at the end of its usefulness. The 4 oz. mini dough does have that spotting that you noted on another post. But the 14 oz. dough did not.

Check out the pictures.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 11:04:14 AM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 10:59:06 AM »
13 Day old dough used to make this pizza and slice.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 12:16:43 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 11:01:01 AM »
And the Slice.  ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 12:40:17 PM »
MWTC,

I hope sometime you will try making the dough the same way but leave the sugar out of the poolish and adding it to the dough mix along with the rest of the ingredients. That will give us a better idea as to whether the sugar in the poolish was a factor in the longevity of the dough.

Can you tell us where you got the recipe to begin with and what prompted you to add the sugar to the poolish?

Peter


Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2007, 02:13:15 PM »
OK, I will start the process tonight. With the sugar added after the poolish is finished. I'll keep you posted as to the results as they come forth.

I got the technique from Bev Collins. She suggested it to me when we were talking about how to add flavor and longevity to pizza dough. She said the dough must ferment slowly, the slower the better. As I was trying different ideas she said to try this, and it worked. She worked with Domino's Pizza in their test kitchens for years. She is very open to assisting in experimentations, a great lady.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 03:02:19 PM »
MWTC,

Thank you for undertaking another round of dough making.

When I first studied the baker's percents for your recipe, what jumped out at me was the small amount of yeast. I wondered whether the dough was a commissary type of dough--one that is made at a central location and distributed to stores. In these types of doughs, the salt is usually also kept on the low side to prevent its having a negative effect on the yeast. A modest hydration percent, like the one in your recipe, is also characteristic of such a dough. But the high amount of sugar in relation to the yeast threw me off--until I saw how you used it in the poolish along with the yeast. Your experiment should shed some light on the subject of dough longevity. Commissary doughs have to have a long gestation period because of the transport issues involved in getting fresh dough to the stores without experiencing problems with fermentation. I couldn't find anything at the Domino's website about where their fresh dough is made (e.g., in the stores or at a commissary) but I do know that outside of the U.S. Domino's uses commissaries. Either way, if Bev worked in the Domino's test kitchens she would know what is in a commissary dough and how to make it. The use of the poolish would be a side benefit.

Peter


Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2007, 12:03:58 PM »
The Pizza from round two. No Sugar Poolish Pizza #1  Dough, four days old.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 12:56:22 AM by MWTC »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2007, 12:58:56 PM »
MWTC,

Can you tell me what baking regimen you used for the pizzas, and what size pizzas you have been making? If you know that dough ball weights also, that would be helpful.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2007, 12:54:40 AM »
The second pizza, 6 day old dough. Two hour counter rise.  Airy with nice browning.


Pete-zza,

I'll have the baking protocol in a few days.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2007, 12:31:16 PM »
Peter,

As you can see the picture above was the 2nd of four doughs from the sugarless poolish experiment. What I need from you is, when do you want me to bake the remaining two doughs. The first was on day 4 and the last one was on day 6. Today would be day 9, Monday. I was thinking, day 10 is tomorrow, a good day to check. That would leave 1 dough, you choose the last day.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2007, 12:41:55 PM »
MWTC,

I think that days 10 and 12 would be good choices if the dough will last. But either way it looks like you have gotten a long life out of the doughs. Can you comment on the differences, if any, between the doughs that were based on the sugar-less poolish versus those that used sugar in the poolish?

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2007, 02:04:25 PM »
The first impression that I got was that the dough was a little stiffer coming out of the fridge. The first dough, on day four, I let set out for one hour, was a little stiffer than usual. The next one on day six it still felt a little stiffer than usual so I let it set out for two hours and it was back to the consistency I was use to. Everything else was about the same. I'll bake the last two on day 10 and 12 and report back with results.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Musky

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2007, 10:44:43 PM »
"ThePoolish:

Mix 200 gram of the All Trumps flour, plus the 3 Tbs sugar and the dissolved ADY in the water.
Beat for 1 min.
Cover in bowl with plastic wrap for 4 hours. Until bubbles appear all over top of poolish.


Add remaining water, 280 grams, cold, right out of fridge, 38.5 degrees, plus the salt and oil.

Knead with spiral hook on speed 2 for 4-5 minutes.

Divide dough into chosen sizes and cover and place in fridge. Temp. going into fridge = 70 degrees.

Let cold ferment for 72 hours."

I'm sure the answer to my first question about the above recipe is very obvious, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because I want to try this and I want to make sure I'm doing it right.  The Poolish has 200 of the total 800 grams of flour.  Do the remaining 600 grams go into the mixer at the same time as the remaining 280 grams of cold water, the salt, and the oil?

Where it says to beat the ingredients for the Poolish for one minute, is this done with a mixer or by hand with a whisk?

Also, what type of flour is the Trumps?  I've been using KAAP and KABF in my attempts at other recipes.  Would one of those compare, or do I need to look for something else?  Thanks, and sorry if I'm asking questions with obvious answers.

Kevin

« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 10:46:56 PM by Musky »

Offline MWTC

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Re: My Poolish-Based Dough Recipe and Method
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2007, 10:27:22 AM »
Musky,

Yes, Add the 280 cold water and salt, slow mix to disolve the salt and add the oil and the remaining 600 grams of flour. Continue per the instructions.

Beat the poolish with the mixer attachment for up to 1 minute.

All Trumps is high gluten flour. High gluten flour works much better than KAAP or KABF. KASL is excellent also.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 12:05:50 PM by MWTC »


 

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