Author Topic: Good results but want better  (Read 4378 times)

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Offline turbosundance

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Good results but want better
« on: March 05, 2007, 04:35:48 PM »
I have been making consistently good pizzas for the last few months now using All purpose flour and Vital Wheat Gluten.  The crust turns out very good but it just doesn't have the soft chewyness of a commercial pizza crust.  I generally make my pizzas with 65 % hydration using the lehmann dough calculator.  I knead it in a modified breadmaker ( no heat, manual paddle control) and refrigerate it for a couple of days.  I'm starting to wonder if changing to a different flour like KASL or All Trumps is the missing link in my dough.  Living in canada I'm limited as far as where I can buy flour.

Does anyone know a good source of high gluten flour in Southwestern Ontario?  Do you agree that the Four is the missing link?
Ryan


Offline Randy

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 05:33:15 PM »
That is so odd about the flour in Canada because I thought they were one of the major growers of high protein wheat. 

But yes, leave the high gluten off and use KASL or the best bread flour you can find for a close second flour but leave the high gluten out.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 06:06:31 PM »
turbosundance,

Supplementing all-purpose flour with vital wheat gluten does produce acceptable results for some people, but it still isnít as good in my opinion as using a higher-gluten flour to begin with. I also understand from what I have read on this forum that it is very difficult to find high-gluten flours in Canada. Hopefully, one of our Canadian members will help you identify a source.

My experience making New York style pizzas using all-purpose flour is somewhat limited, mainly because I have access to higher protein flours. However, some time ago, I came up with a modified Lehmann NY dough formulation using all-purpose flour, vital wheat gluten, and dried dairy whey. That combination worked out very well for me and was the only such formulation that I was prepared at the time to recommend to others. The formulation and processing methods are described here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669 (Reply 205). The background for that post is Reply 204.

I might add that since I came up with the above formulation, I was informed by one of our members, November, that the method of calculating the amount of vital wheat gluten that I described in the abovereferenced post is not technically correct. Fortunately for us, he was kind enough to devise a tool to calculate how much vital wheat gluten you need to combine with a base flour (e.g., all-purpose flour) to achieve a combination with a specified protein content (e.g., 12.7%). The tool, called the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, can be accessed at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I am not sure whether the brands/types of flour and vital wheat gluten you are using in Canada are in the pull-down menus, but if you need help using the calculator, please let me know.

Another all-purpose flour dough recipe that is one of my favorites is described here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg20711.html#msg20711 (Reply 20). Although I didnít use vital wheat gluten in the dough formulation, I alluded to doing so. I especially like the use of honey in the dough. The characteristics of the finished crust are quite similar to a NY style, and with a thickness in line with the NY style.

If either of the above dough formulations is of interest to you, you may have to adapt your bread machine processing a bit. Also, I used pizza screens, which will produce a somewhat softer crust than one baked directly on a stone. I donít know if that will get you closer to a commercial crust, but you should be able to tell. Keep in mind, however, that it would not be unusual for a commercial crust to be better than one baked in a home oven. I think that is one reason why commercial pizza operators are often able to make decent pizzas using all-purpose flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:36:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 07:19:19 PM »
Supplementing all-purpose flour with vital wheat gluten does produce acceptable results for some people, but it still isnít as good in my opinion as using a higher-gluten flour to begin with.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time, and will agree to some extent with Peter on this matter.  If you remember from our discussions on the amino acid content of various flours, Peter, you will recall that bread flour (at least as it is reported generically) contains a higher percentage of amino acids, per level of protein, responsible for gluten formation than either all-purpose or flours higher in protein than bread flour.  Based on this information, I would certainly agree that adding vital wheat gluten (VWG) to all-purpose flour will not be sufficient for reproducing the same results as with high-gluten flour.  I do think however, using a high quality bread flour such as King Arthur bread flour as a starting point and adding VWG will produce a very close match to what is offered in the range of high-gluten flours.

In summary, stay away from all-purpose if what you want is high-gluten.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2007, 07:38:18 PM »
November,

I have experimented with supplementing bread flour with vital wheat gluten, with reasonably good results, but have felt less certain about recommending that one try to get all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour protein-wise in one jump by using such supplementation. My reaction was purely intuitive and not based on any science beyond what I had read about how vital wheat gluten is produced. I also had some experience in supplementing cake flour with vital wheat gluten that led to a pizza crust that was actually quite good, even though intuitively I didn't think the combination would work. But I would never pretend that I could convert cake flour to high-gluten flour by vital wheat gluten supplementation. So I would agree with you that vital wheat gluten supplementation has rather limited application. Yet it remains for the user to determine whether he or she likes the added effects of the vital wheat gluten as part of an overall formulation, as I did with the NY style dough formulation I referenced.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 07:51:18 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2007, 07:53:07 PM »
But I would never pretend that I could convert cake flour to high-gluten flour by vital wheat gluten supplementation.

Nobody said you would, and I would never expect you to.  Like you already said, all-purpose flour and VWG together aren't as good as a high-gluten flour.  I've used all-purpose flour and VWG before with decent results, but I would never do it if I had bread flour on hand.  I just thought it was important to point out that bread flour and VWG produce substantially better results.

- red.november

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2007, 10:29:16 PM »
I do have acces to bread flour  (Robin hood brand) but I actually found the dough to have a better texture with the all purpose (also robin hood) with the VWG.  I have also tried bread flour with VWG an dI found the results were too tough.  I guess what I am after is a chewy crust but not a tough crust.  There are a number of pizza places around here a produce a crust similar to what I am after (Gino's, Pizza Pizza).  To some degree Dominos produces something similar to what I am after but without the corn meal and fluffy crust.  Hmmm... I guess I will have to find out what kind of flour these places use and go from there. 

Pete,I actually got the inspiration to use the VWG from your previous posts on the subject.
Ryan

Offline Aaron

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 10:50:01 AM »
Costco carries bakers flour and if you have a national grocers(cash and carry) they have a product called bakers five roses that some local pizzerias use.Both products come in 20 kg bags and cost is less than $10 at costco or $11.29 at NG.
Aaron

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 12:42:33 PM »
I took a look around costco the other day and all I could find was two versions of Robin Hood flour. One version of All purpose and the other one I remember being clearly marked.  It might have been labeled as baker's flour.  Would this be the flour to use?  I haven't been able to find a National Grocer cash and carry around here (London, Ontario)
Ryan

Offline Aaron

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2007, 09:25:54 AM »
The bakers flour is what you want.Try this link for NG www.wholesaleclub.ca.
Aaron


Offline mzshan

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2007, 11:53:08 PM »
seee that is whats wrong..
Canadian Growers Produce a 14.8% protien level grain Hard red spring wheat.. I found at cwb.ca.
how ever you cant get a flour that is anything like kasl.

http://www.cwb.ca/public/en/library/publications/popups/pdf/western/inserts_full_06.pdf

I went to the bakers catalouge and ordered 3 3lb bags shipping is a mother but i am sure they will be worth it..
aaron you got some good advice man...
what is you background??? are you involved in pizza business you seem to know all the canadian corners where to find what around here...

shan

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 08:38:20 AM »
What is the baker catalog?
Ryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 08:45:30 AM »
turbosundance,

It may not help you much in Canada, but this is the link to the King Arthur website: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/landing.jsp?go=Home.

Peter

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 03:41:29 PM »
Thank you.  I have been to that website and Canadian can order from it.  The only problem is shipping is quite costly.  I'm going to try the bag of "bakers" flour at Costco before I spend 20 on shipping a bag of flour from the USA.  Does anyone know a good cash and carry place in Michigan that is near detroit?  I am 2 hours from Detroit or 1 hour from Port Huron.  I'm 2.5 hours from Buffalo also
Ryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2007, 04:27:36 PM »
turbosundance,

You might want to take a look at GFS (Gordon Food Service), at http://www.gfs.com/gfs_marketplace.html. To see their product listings, click on “Product Categories” and then on “Product Guide”. If GFS looks promising, you might want to do a site search on “Gordon” and “GFS”. Many members have written about the company. I understand also that GFS has operations in Canada, so you may want to do a bit of research on those operations to see if they have any potential value to you. Remember that although GFS sells to individuals, in many cases you would have to buy ingredients in fairly large quantities—like 25/50 lb. bags of flour, #10 cans of tomatoes, blocks of cheese, etc.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2007, 05:13:33 PM »
I found two cash and carry places in the "D". The best is Caramagno's 1-313-869-8200 for most products. You can find All Trumps Flour at Miceli & Old Fields 1-734-946-4500. Both in the Detroit area. Call they will give you directions.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 11:26:19 AM by MWTC »

Offline nepa-pizza-snob

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 10:17:42 PM »
I haven't been able to get to my supplier lately so I bought some gold medal bread flour to try out and in my humble opinion bread flour sucks for NY style pizza crust. I used the same successful rec. I use
when made with all trumps and the crust won't brown (hyd issue I suspect) it has this ambiguously soft not crisy texture maybe its me, but I am all about G L U T E N.

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2007, 07:21:47 PM »
I made a couple pizzas friday night using the robin hood all purpose with a tablespoon of VWG per dough ball.   It actually turned out quite good.  I used my normal recipe that I created with the Lehmann calculator.  I made one large change though.  I used a hydration of 70%.  This made the dough a bit hard to handle out of the mixer but I fond it didn't dry out as much when cooked.   I also used canola oil instead of olive because I was out of olive oil.  I'd post a picture but my digital camera no longer has a working flash. 
Ryan

Offline SemperFi

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2007, 11:18:21 AM »
The bakers flour is what you want.Try this link for NG www.wholesaleclub.ca.
Aaron

Is Bakers flour just another name for bread flour?  Adam
Adam

Offline turbosundance

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Re: Good results but want better
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2007, 04:59:33 PM »
I have found a wholesale foods store in my city but I haven't been able to go there and see what they have in the way of flours.  This store is closed in the morning when I go to work and is also closed on my way home from work.  I have a day off soon so I'm going to check it out.  I have my fingers crossed that they will have something good for me.  What brand of flour should I look for besides all trumps and KASL?
Ryan


 

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