Author Topic: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough  (Read 7959 times)

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Offline PizzaBrasil

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Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« on: April 09, 2007, 12:44:07 PM »
During the last couple of years I had baked a lot of pizzas in a high temperature wood oven.
I had tried Neapolitan, NY, deep dish, foccacia and even Argentina dough, all together with ‘creatures’ of any kind <g>
The best suitable and more required by both my family and visitors was/is the TLNY style, with pre-ferment and refrigerated for 24+ hours. A superb winner.
This version is widely accepted in this site as one of the best dough (using IDY, ADY or pre-ferment)
By the other hand, reading from the site www.pizza.it, the indication to the best pizza dough goes to the one that is one day fermented on the kitchen counter, with temperatures between 20 to 24 °C.
Reading recent mails here, like the ‘Can I warm rise a Lehmann dough?’ and ‘Punching down’ I think that could be a good moment to introduce this thread, speaking about ‘one day fermented dough’, even if not concluded.
This new thread is opened to follow the discussion of the two mentioned thread above and to inform you from my results, expecting to obtain more ideas or questions to work with.
I carried out a series of tests to know which could be the quantities of pre-ferment and yeast versus time and final pizza taste.
These tests are not conclusive yet, even with a clear indication going to long rest using pre-ferment dough as the better.
At the end of a long journey, I expect to have a chart with ferment types, leavening time and rest type and time that could give to any user the possible combination to have a good pizza in an expected target time.
I intend to consider the temperature variation in a second step. For now, I am using an isolated box that helps me to maintain the dough temperature between 20 to 24 °C.
I am using the Brazilian Nita brand flour (for pizza) that I am believing is a low protein level flour, 00 type. The W value is 280. I was informed that the protein (as humid gluten) is 24.20 and I do not know what this really means (November, Chiguy, Pete-zza?)
Just as reference, during the last two years I had used the Nita Special flour, with W=265 and protein (humid gluten) of 27.02. I am very happy with the obtained pizzas using this flour, along the knowhow from this site, of course. 
I carried out two tests, in the last two weekends.
As reference, I use the original formula, as posted in the mentioned Italian site.
These values use the quantity of used water, as reference, being the water quantity 100%, not the flour.
This could be a little unfamiliar when seeing by first time, but is easy to assimilate to the ones that use to use the Baker´s percentages.
I had worked the dough as indicated in the mentioned site, more precisely in the Ciro Number 1 message (messaggio di Ciro n.1).
Meaning: the dough was prepared as usual, all the water, then the pre-ferment dissolved in it, the half of the sifted flour showered in, premixed, followed by the salt, mixed and ended with the addition of the rest of the flour in little steps during mixing, until the desired consistence was reached.
The entire process took a couple of minutes of mixing.
After that, the dough was retired from the mixer and worked by hand on a lightly floured counter by approximately five minutes.
The dough was covered with a delicate quantity of flour and left to rest in a closed container.
There was a ‘puntata’ or a rest of the dough of two hours before the ‘staglio’ or division, the dough was divided in two ‘panini’ or individual dough and left to rest by at least 8 hours (apretto) in a container with lid.
This process was maintained for each one of the dough in the tests.
The mass of each finished dough was around the 400 grams (1 oz = 28 gr), latter divided in two individual pizzas of nearly of 200 grams and 11/12 inches of diameter when stretched.
The skins were filled with a little EVOO, salt and dried basil or a clear tomato sauce and basil, just to carry out the test.
The temperature of the oven was 230°C (450°F). I know that it was lower than good, but it is as my oven is, and I was so lazy to use the wood oven.
It is a gas oven, with the flames in the lower ‘floor’ covered / protected with an upper metal plate with holes in both sides and front of it.
The skins were baked in the pre heated home oven configured with a pizza stone in the higher step and a pizza screen in the lower. The skins were baked always in a pair, beginning one in the stone and the other in the screen, and being inverted when half baked.
Some of these baked skins were freezed to later use.
Since this resume is going too long, I am sending now, just to prepare a second one with the quantities and results. There will be pictures too.
Meantime, I expect some questions and comments about this first resume, if you like to do.

Luis


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 06:19:03 PM »
Luis,

I very much look forward to your test results.

I think the reason why the Italian pizza forum recommends a long room temperature fermentation is because the main flour used in Naples is the 00 flour, with the Caputo 00 flour being the most popular brand. It can be used alone, or supplemented with flours like the Manitoba. As noted at this post, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328.html#msg25328 (Reply 17), you will see that the Caputo 00 flour has a high falling number. This tells us that the Caputo 00 flour is an unmalted flour with low amylase activity. That makes the flour especially suitable for long room-temperature fermentations and not as suitable for cold fermentation. Pizzanapoletana discussed some of these aspects at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410.html#msg13410 (Reply 125). I discussed some of the attributes of the Caputo 00 flour in the context of room temperature fermentations at this post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2191.msg19324.html#msg19324 (Reply 2).

By contrast, the flours you have been using, with low falling numbers, appear to be malted or otherwise supplemented to achieve increased amylase activity. From what you have said, they appear to be well suited for cold fermentation. Maybe that is why they have worked well for you with the preferment versions of the Lehmann dough that you cold fermented.

The expression “humid gluten” you used in your post is called “wet gluten” in the U.S. Wet gluten as a way of specifying the protein content of a flour is more common outside of the U.S., whereas in the U.S. “dry gluten” is the more common way of specifying the protein content of a flour. As I understand the “wet gluten” process, a sample of dough is prepared and washed in a solution (such as a sodium chloride solution) to separate the glutenin and gliadin proteins. I believe that the amount of these proteins, stated as a percent, represent the wet gluten value. The dry gluten value would represent the value when the wet gluten is dried, as by using freeze-drying or by drying in an oven.

Maybe I have asked you this before, but can you tell us what your cold fermented Lehmann dough formulation is that you have used so successfully?

Peter

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2007, 11:20:34 AM »
Wow, Peter:
You always surprise me with things that are news to me! Thanks (I will study a little harder )
There are too many factors to consider, that I am not sure if my tests have some value to people with different flour. Let me continue with them, perhaps somebody is interested.

The original formula in the ‘messaggio di Ciro N1’, that I follow in this tests is

Water = 1lt (100%)
Salt = 50 g (45 / 55 g per 1lt water) (5%)
Yeast = 2 or 3 gr (per 1lt water) (fresh ferment or ‘lievito di birra’) (.25 / .3 %)
Flour = 1.650 kg (1.65%)

60% of hydration.

The pre-ferment is not considered in this formula. I had included it in my tests, since I do prefer to use it because the final flavor.
I am now realizing that I did not perform a test with IDY only. Do I need to do it?
I have three pre ferments, the one used in the table below was the Camaldoli, the one in the second table was the Ischia and the last one was a starter that is a mixture of Camaldoli, Ischia and Carl´s.
All of three pre ferments were fed at least three times (doubling volume) before used.

I did three tests in three week ends, divided in 4 / 4 / 2 dough.

Ingredients   Ciro formula   Dough 1    Dough 2   Dough 3   Dough 4
Flour                       1.65 kg   250    250   250   250
Pre Ferment                         -   1.5    5    5   25
Yeast                      2 – 3 g   .45    .45   1   -
Salt                          50 g    7.5    7.5   7.5   7.5
Water                           1 lt   150     150   150   150

12:40 hs: The dough in this formula were finished 
14:40 hs: The 1 and 2 ones showed little development, the 3 increased nearly 50% and the 4 around 80%.
The dough 3 and 4 were more clammy and weak, however agreeable to work with when divided and reworked.
At this point the dough were divided in two individual dough each covered with a fine oil film and left to rest in a closed container.
20:20 hs: The 3 dough grew up more than double, without bubbles in surface, followed in size by the 1 and then the 2. We could say that the 3 was ‘inflated’ and the 1 and 2 were ‘stuffed’. The 4 dough was no so big, flat, even looks well developed (I think that is because the pre ferment, seems too similar to the refrigerated dough)
21:10 hs: 3 was shaped and baked. Was stuck to the container, and difficult to shape, feels suave to touch. Cracker and slightly dense in the middle, soft edge. Good taste.
21:30 hs: 1 was shaped and baked. More easy to work than 3. Same taste.
21:40 hs: Out of time, the 2 and 4 were to the refrigerator
Next day, 13:10 hs: 2 and 4 were shaped and baked. As expected both of the dough were very extensible and grew up more than 1 and 3 when baked. More smooth edge, bigger on the 4 than the 2.
Conclusion of this batch, better to go with more preferment and more time to rest. Seems that the 3 was ready with 8 hs of rest (puntata, staglio, apretto), however I did not like the overall results. The 4 was the best one, but it was rested in refrigerator. Seems that another couple of hours in the counter could make a difference.

There are more 6 dough tested, with pictures, in next replies.

Luis

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2007, 08:50:54 AM »
Second test: Four dough
Same characteristics and environment that the previous mail.
The dough numbered as 5 is the same dough as 4 in previous test (that I considered the best), just to maintain the comparison


               5   6   7   8
Flour               250   250   250   250
Pre ferment   25   15   15   25
Yeast (IDY)   -   .5   1   1
Salt                7,5   7,5   7,5   7,5
Water                150   150   150   150

19:20 hs: Dough finished and resting.
23:22 hs: 5 and 6 doubled the volume and looking nice and delicate.
7 and 8 had more than double volume. The 8 felt better than 7, too much volume, no bubbles in surface.
All dough were relaxed and soft. Great feeling when touched. The 6 seems the better, the 5 very good and 7 and 8 probably too soft, even good.
All dough divided in two individual ones each.
10:00 hs: 7 and 8 presenting some bubbles, I believe that were over proved, 5 grew a little (may be not ready) and 6 is ok.
11:30 hs: 7 and 8 were baked. Lot of bubbles after shaped. 7 shows more elasticity than 8. When baked, the 7 grew up less than the 8, that had better cornicione and slightly better taste.
12 hs: 6 was baked. Perfect dough when shaped. A little less extensible than the ones in which I had used the 24+ hs refrigerator rest. No so great development in bake. Bread taste.
12:30 hs: 5 was baked. Easy to shape, very extensible (less than refrigerated ones). Developed very well in oven. Good taste. Very digestible.
I founded that was the better one in this test. My family likes the 6 too.
Conclusion, the better results were obtained with the dough 5 without yeast and with 12+ hours of rest. The second one was the dough 6, with a little yeast and low percentage of pre ferment. The 7 and 8 had too much pre ferment / yeast combination and grew fast, not giving time to the developing of flavor.

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2007, 08:53:20 AM »
More pictures, second test.

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2007, 08:55:55 AM »
Last pictures second test.
There will be two more dough tested report.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2007, 10:23:20 AM »
Luis,

Thank you for running the tests and posting your results. Since all the ingredients and quantities were the same for all the doughs except for the quantities of natural preferment and commercial yeast, the results should tell us something useful about how quantities and types of yeast can affect dough performance. For example, high quantities of yeast, whether natural or commercial and especially if combined, like in #7 and #8, can cause a dough to rise too much and too fast. To me, that means we should resist the temptation to use too much yeast. Either that, or use the dough sooner, even though that may have an effect on the taste and other aspects of the finished crusts.

Were you able to tell the difference in crust flavor between #5 (natural preferment only) and #6 (natural preferment and commercial yeast), which seem to have performed the best for you and were most favored by you and your family? If so, can you describe the differences?

Peter

Offline DWChun

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2007, 11:14:45 AM »
Thanks for sharing your test information, Luis. Very interesting!

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2007, 11:20:27 AM »
Third test: Two dough
Same characteristics and environment that the previous mail (this time using a preferment that is a mixture between Carl´s, Ischia e Camaldoli ones)
I forgot to mention that in the second test the preferment that was used was the Ischia one.
Individually, the Ischia and the Camaldoli pre ferments shows no developing differences.


                 9   10      
Flour                 250 g   250 g      
Pre ferment   37.5 g   50 g      
Yeast (IDY)   -   -      
Salt                  7,5 g   7,5 g       
Water                 150 g   150 g      

10:00 hs: Dough finished and resting.
12:00 hs: Little variation in the dough size. Divided in two and resting.
20:00 hs: Dough well developed. 9 increased nearly 75% and 10 doubled. Good and consistent dough. Both of them easily worked and shaped. Suave dough when touched.
The oven had a lower temperature, nearly the 400°F.
Both the dough did not develop too much when baked and showed lack of color.
Good taste, anyway.

Final conclusion (considering the three tests).

For one day warm rise pizza dough, the use of  pre ferment shows the best results.
If having 12 – 14 hours to work with and 24°C of ambient temperature, a 10 % (based on flour weight) of pre ferment is a good shot.
With 8 – 10 hours the use of 15% or 20% of preferment will work, being 15% when the ambient temperature is over 24°C and 20% when under it.
Of course, a closed look at the dough will permit adjusts in this rest times.
Finally, in my opinion and with the flour type that I use, no one of this one day warm rise dough were better than the 24+ hours refrigerated ones.
The recipe that I use in these 24+ NYTL is:

TLNY style with preferment

Flour 100%
Water 63%
Oil 1%
Salt 1.75%
Pre ferment 10% (50/50 ratio)
Yeast (IDY) 0.15% (eventually used)

75% of flour in 75% of water with the preferment, hand kneaded (mixed), 30 min autolyse, a little knead, then the rest of flour and water kneaded in.
Followed by salt, brief hand knead and finally the oil.
Brief knead again. Five minutes of rest. Divided and shaped in pizza balls of 300/310 grams (10.9 oz).
24+ refrigerated rest.
Dough at ambient temperature (or at least 20°C), shaped and topped and, the huge difference: baked in a 800+°F wood oven.

Luis

Ps: The pictures will be posted may be tomorrow.
Ps 2: Peter
answering your question, the 6 seems to me as having a bread taste and I do not like that too much. I really enjoy with the 5. It had a good, smooth cornicione, firm center and not so crackery as was the 6.

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2007, 11:49:52 AM »
Pre ferment 10% (50/50 ratio)

Luis,

Is the 50/50 ratio by volume or by weight?

Peter


Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2007, 01:25:49 PM »
In the beginning the 50 – 50 % ratio of flour and water was by weight.
The preferment was refreshing one time a week. More frequently when baking / cooking.
It is maintained in refrigerator at low temperature.
Nowadays is by eye. Just to the consistency of a pancake batter. Once a lot.
Only when going to bake the preferment is  feed at least three times (All of three pre ferments are stronger and develop well, sometimes they are feeding more than 5 times, however, the experience shows that three times is ok).
From time to time, the pre ferments are feed by precise weight again. As a safeguard.

Luis

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2007, 07:44:36 AM »
Following are the pictures of the above mentioned 9 dough.
As I did in other pictures of this series, it is possible to see a fingerprint in the dough showing that the pressed dough did not return, meaning that the dough is developed.
The pizzas shows a white color, I think that the lower (400°F) oven temperature, together the lack of sugar or oil (I tested the dough just to see its behavior, as is I intend to bake it in a wood oven with 800+°F) contributed to this.
These dough, topped with sauce only, were directly to freeze. I take out early of the oven to bake again when topped.

Luis

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 08:08:26 AM »
Peter:

Re reading your post about the one day TL using pre ferment, I saw that the quantities of pre ferment show a coincidence with mines, despite the flour differences.
These coincidence, along the above showed tests, let me pretty confident about the use of 15 to 20% of pre ferment (percentage based in flour quantity) to one day countertop fermented dough. (I will intend to try a big batch next weekend).
The question that remains is when speaking of the exclusive use of fresh, IDY or ADY ferments.
On the site www.pizza.it, that I consider another excellent reference to pizza making, it is possible to see a table referencing the strength of flour with fermentation time, as example:
‘Farina con W = 180 maturazione tipica in 3 ore.
Farina con W = 240 maturazione tipica in 6 ore.
Farina con W = 280 maturazione tipica in 12 ore.
Farina con W = 320 maturazione tipica in 24 ore.’
This data are referenced to use of 3 to 5 gr of fresh yeast by litter of water and 24°C of ambient temperature.
Did you or someone of this forum any test that could confirm the numbers above?

Another fact that I like to point here, just in searching for the best dough management, is that in the Italian site (and in the tests above) the dough preparation follows the steps  preparation and rest (puntata) normally of two hours or more, division in individual balls (staglio) and second rest period of 4 hours or more (apretto).
These first and second rests are variable depending on the temperature, flour type and expected fermentation time, just to mention some of the factors.
I do not recall reading some similar in another site (even pizzamaking.com)
Do you, or other from this forum, know what the benefits or difficulties are?

I think that know these process could help us to follow in the best pizza dough searching.

Thanks you.

Luis


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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2007, 10:57:45 AM »
Luis,

Some time ago, I found a link at the pizza.it website to a blog report on the subject of W values. I tried to find the original blog report, at blog.libero.it, but I believe the forum software changed and I could not find it. The post in question was by a poster "cane_azzurro", Message No. 168, on January 9, 2006. I fortunately printed out a copy of an English translation, and the W values given are the following:

W = 150-200 - Time 4-6 hours
W = 200-250 - Time 6-8 hours
W = 250-300 - Time 8-12 hours
W = 300-350 - Time 12-18 hours
W = 350-400 - Time 18-24 hours

The above times were indicated to be approximate, and there was a brief discussion about the need to make adjustments to the amount of flour and yeast to use based on desired fermentation time and ambient temperature.

As to your question about the rest and rise periods, I think you will find that the numbers you mentioned are fairly standard and to the best of my knowledge appear to be in compliance with the recommendations presented in official documents I have seen in the past, such as this one: http://gazzette.comune.jesi.an.it/2004/120/9.htm.

Peter

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2007, 02:48:46 PM »
Fortunately I can read Italian language and I know the VPN original document words.
The relationship table between W and time is complete in a post of ‘pixior’ that is easily reached in the mentioned Italian site.
I know, too, that you are as kindly as to answer all the questions that are addressed to you, as you did in the previous post. And I am sure that all the readers of this forum have great respect for your always correct and careful answers. Of course I do, and all of my pizzas have at least a little signature of yours.
Nothing could replace the experience. However, within this thread and looking by the answer to the questions of the previous mail, I would like to direct to the members (and myself) to a spreadsheet that answer the question ‘If I have the X flour and the Y ferment type, when do I need to begin to mixture my dough and how much of the ferment do I need to use, to bake the pizza dough at H hours?’
I think that we already know some part of the answer, at least when pre ferment is used.
And using fresh ferment, by the Italian table, we know a few more about it. Is this table applied to any flour at any temperature?
By the other way, thinking about the first rest - division of the dough – final rest, the Italian site suggest that longer the first rest, bigger the acidity of the dough.
To VPN is officially indicated a first rest of two hours, division and second rest of 4 to 6 hours (with a window time of 6 hours to bake the dough).
For different pizza type, the first rest varies to as longer as 8 hours, division and second rest of 2 hours.
They aim to the flavor and strongly to the ‘digestivility’ of the pizza
All the information in the pizzamaking site, as long as I could remember, tries about just one rest (retarded in refrigerator or in the kitchen counter).
How could this different ‘fermentation’ approaches affect the end results?
I like to emphatize that the most of the people that taste the NYTL crusts had no less than approval words to define how it taste. Here including my family and myself.
Using you own words, ‘always learning’ defines me (I think so <g>) and is just because I had opened this thread.
Thanks you by your answers.

Luis

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2007, 04:34:59 PM »
Luis,

Thank you for your kind remarks. But I assure you that I have made my share of incorrect statements, usually when I repeat what some “experts” have said that turns out to be incorrect or misleading, or, as we say in the U.S., an “old wives tale”. Fortunately, we have forum member November to catch many of these misstatements and to provide explanations that are firmly grounded in good science. I now try to be more cautious about what I quote from someone else.

I did find the table you mentioned and have set it forth in full below for discussion purposes:

Farina con W = 160 maturazione tipica in 2 ore.
Farina con W = 180 maturazione tipica in 3 ore.
Farina con W = 210 maturazione tipica in 4 ore.
Farina con W = 240 maturazione tipica in 6 ore.
Farina con W = 260 maturazione tipica in 9 ore.
Farina con W = 280 maturazione tipica in 12 ore.
Farina con W = 300 maturazione tipica in 15 ore.
Farina con W = 320 maturazione tipica in 24 ore.
Farina con W = 380 maturazione tipica in 48 ore.
Farina con W = 400 maturazione tipica in 72 ore.

As I have noted previously elsewhere, the “deformation energy” factor “W” is not a common one in the U.S. Millers use it but retailers who sell flour, such as King Arthur, for example, do not disclose W values in their literature made available to retail buyers. Caputo and other European millers do report those values. There are many places where one can learn about flour parameters and characteristics, but one of my favorite places is the Cook Natural Products website at http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html. If you read the section on the W factor, I think you will see that W values are fairly closely correlated to flour type, principally to the strength of the flour as reflected by its protein and gluten content. So, the weaker the flour, the lower the W value and the shorter the fermentation time, and vice versa. Temperature will come into play simply because it can materially affect the length of the fermentation period. In practice, you will have to adjust for temperature changes by altering the hydration (by using more or less flour), by increasing or decreasing the amount of yeast (or preferment/starter), or by adjusting the salt content. I imagine that the table recited above is approximate only and possibly tied to a particular room temperature, not a wide range of temperatures.

If you search the forum I think you will find that members have used two room temperature fermentation periods in making Neapolitan-style pizzas. The very first Neapolitan-style pizzas I made (using a recipe I posted on the forum) used an initial 4-hour room temperature fermentation and a second 2-4 hour fermentation, also at room temperature, after division of the dough. Pamela Sheldon Johns recites similar periods in her book Pizza Napoletana! but using a mix of all-purpose and pastry flour in lieu of 00 flour, which at the time she wrote her book was not readily available in the U.S. In the U.S., some pizza operators have decided to use cold fermentation with 00 flours, primarily for reasons of convenience in dough preparation and management. There are advocates of both methods who strongly defend their particular methods. With some flours, like 00 flours, I personally tend to favor room temperature fermentation and use of natural preferments and long fermentation times to fully develop the flavor byproducts of fermentation. For other flours, like bread flours and high-gluten flours, I tend to prefer cold fermentation and use of commercial yeast, mainly for convenience and ease of use. As you know, I have been able to get very good crust flavors from the cold fermentation doughs (mainly Lehmann doughs), but you have to be prepared to wait a lot longer than usual to get the full range of crust flavors.

Peter

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2007, 10:27:01 AM »
Test using one day warm rise dough with pre ferment and wood oven.
In the last test I had concluded that for one day warm rise pizza dough, the use of  pre ferment had showed the best results. Other conclusion was that with the flour type that I used, no one of these one day warm rise dough were better than the 24+ hours refrigerated ones.
Last Saturday I made a new one day rise test using only pre ferment (no yeast) and baking the dough in a wood oven.
I did four pizzas, as in the next table

                           11   12      
Flour (280W)   165 g (100 %)   600 g (100 %)      
Pre ferment   33 g (20 %)   90 g (15 %)      
Oil                1 g (0.6 %)   6 g (1 %)      
Salt                5 g (3 %)   20 g (3 %)      
Water          150 g (60 %)   378 g (63 %)      


The used pre ferment was the Ischia one, refreshed three times, being the third feed with a 60-40 flour water weight relationship and used almost at his higher fermenting activity.
I added the oil to this test, just to bake the TL NY style of dough that I normally use to prepare.
The dough were mixed using a planetary mixer equipped with paddle and hook.
Cold water around 14°C was in the bols and mixed with all the pre ferment, using the paddle. 50 to 70 % of the flour was sifted in and mixed during a couple of minutes, when the salt was added and mixed for a few seconds.
The paddle was changed by the hook.
The rest of the flour was sifted in and mixed during five - seven minutes helped with a silicone spatula used to separate the dough from the hook
The dough was finally hand kneaded for another 5 – 10 minutes with the oil added in the first minutes of hand knead.
The 11 dough was finished at 09:30 hs with a temperature of 24 °C, going to the freezer by few minutes until the internal temperature drops to 21°C.
The 12 dough was finished at 10:10 hs and follows the same process that the 11.
Both of dough rested in a plastic refrigerator where the temperature was 20 °C (the finished temperature of the container at the end of the test was 22 °C)
At 13:20 hs the 12 dough was divided in three individual ones, returning to the refrigerator in individual containers.
Approximately at 20 hs the dough were retired from the container and left to ambient temperature (25 °C)
Eight hours later from the dough division and approximately twelve hours from finished, at 21:20 hs, the dough number 11 had more than doubled without showing surface bubbles, was delicate and easy to shape. I distract myself a little when stretching out and one of my fingers made a little hole in the disk, however this hole did not spread.
One of the individual dough coming from the dough 12 was shaped at same time. The dough develops almost doubling his size, was great to touch and was shaped and filled without any difficult. The dough did never sticks to the wood paddle.

The last two dough were shaped 30 or 40 minutes later, showing no visible differences.
All of the dough were heavily filled (as we used to do, sorry experts) and baked in a wood oven with 750 °F in the hearth (not as hot as always, just 4 pizzas to be baked).
I did not see the clock, may be that took 2.5 minutes to each pizza be ready.
The 11 dough shows a regular developed edge, good color, not bread like, not crackery. Very good tasting.
All of the 12 were superb, no matter the filling, big cornicione with lots of holes, smooth and melting in the mouth, great colour with burned points. Excellent.
Both the dough were very good to excellent when reheated a day latter.
Resuming: I could not be more happy with these results. I think that the conclusion above about the cold rise being better that the warm one, need to be changed.
This test show to me and my family that a warm rise could be as good or better than a cold rise, when attended properly.
I intend to have another big party (more than 40 crew, I believe) in my home in a couple of weeks. I will report the results.
Bad pictures of these pizzas following (sorry for the pics quality, I need to bought a better digital camera and learn a lot from November)

Luis

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2007, 10:28:19 AM »
And this is the picture of the dough number 11

Luis

Offline November

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2007, 11:08:30 AM »
Luis,

I have generally accepted that room temperature fermentation produces better results than a refrigerator temperature (41°F) fermentation, but it all comes down what the temperature of the room is.  So far the best combination of flavor and texture I have experienced was the result of a 24-hour, 59°F rise.

- red.november

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Test of quantities of pre ferment in one day fermented dough
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2007, 11:13:29 AM »
Luis,

You did a great job with the pizzas. I'm sure that the high-temperature oven was an improvement over your regular home oven, but I can see that you also followed sound principles in the preparation of your latest doughs as you described them.

You made reference to a "plastic refrigerator". Can you describe what that is?

You originally mentioned the "Ciro's" dough formulation that calls for using commercial yeast, as I understood it. All of your doughs used preferments. Have you tried the Ciro's formulation, or intend to, for comparison purposes?

Peter