Author Topic: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours  (Read 12727 times)

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Offline MWTC

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« on: April 07, 2007, 03:33:55 PM »
SLICEofSLOMON

I have your book, The Pizza Book, Wow, what a fantastic reference work. I find it hard to come up with words to express my amazement at your achievement. It will take years to digest its contents. I'm stunned by it, and thats stunning. Enough said. Except, Thank-you. Worth every penny and infintally more!!!!

I do have a few questions. The Pizza on the cover, front and back, what type and brand of flour did you use? Was it the Standard Milling Company's Hecker's Unbleached Flour, Cerasota that you referenced in your book? And is that company still in business, if so where can we find it? And what method of dough production did you use on the above mentioned pizza? Was it your Basic Pizza Dough method starting on page 56? Was it baked directly on the stone?

Thank-you again for everything, I will be enjoying your masterpiece for the rest of my life.

MWTC  :chef:

P.S. Have you come up with a recommended reading list for Pizza lovers? If not would you?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:32:22 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 01:15:18 PM »
Hi MWTC,

Yes, the pizzas on both covers were made with Heckers unbleached (12 1/2 % protein) using the New York Style dough recipe and a quarry tile lined oven at 600 degrees (I had an old restaurant range oven that could really crank the heat). I assume you can still get Hecker's back east, but haven't used it since I wrote the book. Those pies were made in one shot. We put a square of black velvet on the floor of the kitchen and the pie on top. The photographer shot each pie--hand holding the camera! Talk about primitive. The pies were not doctored up or retouched, but they were consumed by the camera crew immediately after the shoot.

There may be a professional pizza book in the wind...but it is really too early to say anything yet. I've had a really tough time convincing publishers to either let me redo a revised expanded version of The Pizza Book or a completely new one...they don't see the need...

As for a reading list, that's a good idea, I'll try to put one together--or at least partially because I'd like to relate what I found helpful in each book or article. But! don't expect it any time too soon because I've got so many projects running right now. That is an excellent idea though and I will most certainly do it at some point.

Happy Easter!

Evelyne
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:32:53 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 02:38:50 PM »
And is that company still in business, if so where can we find it?

MWTC,

Hecker’s and Ceresota are owned by the same company, The Uhlmann Company/American Home Foods. Their flours can be sourced through the companies identified here: http://www.heckers-ceresota.com/where.htm. The Hecker’s flour is also available from  chefswarehouse.com at
http://www.chefswarehouse.com/Catalog/DisplayProduct.aspx?Cat=BAKE&PTypId=FLOU&PCatId=A2&Page=2.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:33:55 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 11:25:51 AM »
Peter,

Have you tried the Hecker's Unbleached flour?

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:34:26 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 11:29:52 AM »
Peter,

Have you tried the Hecker's Unbleached flour?

MWTC,

No, I haven't. It is not a flour that I have seen in any store where I shop.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:34:53 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bryan S

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 01:23:57 PM »
MWTC,

Hecker’s and Ceresota are owned by the same company, The Uhlmann Company/American Home Foods. Their flours can be sourced through the companies identified here: http://www.heckers-ceresota.com/where.htm.

Peter

Just a F.Y.I. for those in the Mid Atlantic area. Although not list on the Uhlmann site the Ceresota flour is also available at Giant grocery/food stores. I've often wondered about that flour when i saw it while shopping at Weis and Giant here in PA. Next time I go to the store I'll pick up a bag and give it a go.  :D
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:35:24 AM by Pete-zza »
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline MWTC

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 02:09:27 PM »
SLICEofSLOMON

Seeing that you haven't used the Heckler's in decades, why was that decision made, when it produced such a great looking crust? When you are making an American style pizza, what is your flour and brand of choice? And, do you choose different flour for the different styles you make (excluding Chicago Style)? And, do you mix flours in any of your dough formulations?

Thank-you for your willingness to share.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:35:52 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bryan S

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 10:38:12 PM »
I picked up a bag of the Ceresota flour at Giant tonight, $1.96 for a 5lb bag. I'll make some dough tomorrow with it and post the results then.  :pizza:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:36:25 AM by Pete-zza »
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline MWTC

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Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 01:02:55 AM »
SLICEofSLOMON

A couple more questions.

I know that you identify high gluten flour as bread flour in your description of bread flour on page 16. When you state in a dough recipe to use bread flour, are you intending to direct us to either/or of the 12% or 14% flours?

Which one have you found to be superior in overall quality for dough formulations? Preferably in an American Stye or NewYork.

Would or have you revealed/identified  your personal commercial preferences in flour brands?

Thank-you again.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 10:36:51 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bryan S

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2007, 11:03:46 PM »
I picked up a bag of the Ceresota flour at Giant tonight, $1.96 for a 5lb bag. I'll make some dough tomorrow with it and post the results then.  :pizza:
Ok, made up a batch of my no oil dough with the Ceresota flour tonight. It acts alot like the Harvest King as it was on the wet side, should have added a TSB or two more of flour but i did not. One thing that really stood out about this flour was the smell, or lack there of. You know how when you open up a bag of flour or your airtight container and the pungent smell of flour comes up and smacks you in the face? Well this did not have that strong flour smell. I then proceeded to open up my containers of Harvest King, KABF, and KAAP flour and man there was that smell. This had a pleasant, maybe call it soft, kind of sorta nutty mabe nose to it. Anywho I'm stoked. I'll do a 5 day and a 8 day pizza with the dough.
Edit: This is also my first time using AP flour for my pizza dough.
2 - 20 oz balls for 16" pies

Flour (100%) 24.56 oz
Water (62%) 15.22 oz
IDY (0.33%) 0.76 tsp.
Salt (2%) 2.5 tsp.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 11:22:50 PM by Bryan S »
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.


Offline MWTC

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2007, 11:37:43 PM »
SLICEofSLOMON

More Questions.

For your Ultimate New York-Style Pizza, the Master Dough Recipe, It's, 1 cup warm water, 1 level teaspoon ADY, 3-3 1/2 cups bread flour unbleached and 1/2 tsp salt.

Would you convert that to baker' percents?

I just got a bag of the Heckers that you used. I just started working with it. I'm going for the look of your cover pizzas. Glutenboy has produced that great look also. Have you seen his Pics? Fantastic!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.0.html

Would you give the hydration levels for Heckers and for KASL and All Trumps for the above mentioned recipe?

Thanks again, I look forward to your response.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 11:48:30 PM by MWTC »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2007, 11:08:28 AM »
MWTC,

Evelyne and I went down the path you are now heading, where many of the questions you are asking about the NY dough recipe in her book were addressed. I even created a special folder for all of my analysis of the NY style dough recipe recited in Evelyneís book and several possible dough formulations and scenarios using the Lehmann dough calculating tool. As background on this subject, you may want to read the following posts:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081.html#msg37081 (Reply 298), followed by Replies 299, 304, 306, 308, 310, and 312.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg28814.html#msg28814 (Reply 432).
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3489.msg31563.html#msg31563 (Reply 47), followed by Reply 48.

As you will see from the above posts, at the time the Pizza Book was written in the 80s, the old pizza makers did not use bakerís percents or scales and the like. They used their hands and went by feel. Also, the flours used at the time were not the same as are used today. Even the Heckerís flour of today is likely different from the Heckerís flours of the 80s because of agricultural technological advances over the last 20 years.

Somewhere along the way, Evelyne mentioned (and I noted in my copy of the Pizza Book) that a typical dough ball weight for a Totonnoís 15Ē pizza was about 15-16 ounces, and that the same amount of dough would have made a 16Ē Lombardiís pizza (the original Lombardiís) and an 18Ē Johnís pizza. You will note that those were the sizes mentioned in Evelyneís book just under the recipe title. When I used forum member Novemberís Mass-Volume calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, which is predicated on measuring out the flour and water in specific ways, I came up with a total dough weight for the NY dough recipe in Evelyneís book of over 20 ounces, even when using the 3-cup flour measurement. For purposes of the conversions, I used the King Arthur bread flour (12.7% protein) as a proxy for the Heckerís flour, which is not listed in the tool. I also did similar conversions based on all-purpose flour (King Arthur) and the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour, even though at the time the Pizza Book was written high-gluten flour as we now know it was not as common for pizza dough as the other flours.

ln all cases, I concluded that 3 cups of flour was more likely the better quantity to use, rather than 3 Ĺ cups, because otherwise the hydration based on one cup of water for 3 Ĺ cups of flour (based on Novemberís tool) would be around 52-53%, which runs counter to what Evelyne said about the high hydration levels used by the old masters. When I used 3 cups of flour (for all three types of flour), I got closer to 61-63%, which seemed more credible. I think it is also a good range for the three different flours you mentioned, that is, the Hecker's, All Trumps and KASL, although my recollection is that Evelyne promotes an even higher hydration of around 65%, on a somewhat generalized basis.

As big a fan as I am of bakerís percents and converting dough recipes recited in volumes to weights and bakerís percents and the like, I think the better course of action for you to take is to experiment with the NY dough recipe in Evelyneís book using volume measurements. If you feel compelled to devise the set of bakerís percents that produces the best results in your tests, I would weigh and measure everything and do the conversions once you hit upon the right formula. I would start with 3 cups of flour and, once the dough is made, use 15-16 ounces as a starting point for making your pizzas. I assume that you are trying to replicate the recipe in the Pizza Book as it was used in the 80s. However, as noted in one of the above posts, Evelyne indicated that she would make several changes to the recipe were it to be used today, including the hydration (higher) and amount and type of yeast (a small amount of IDY). She would also lean toward cold fermentation, which was an option originally mentioned in her book.

If it will help, I calculated the following thickness factors based on the 15-16 ounce dough ball weights for the 15Ē (Totonnoís), 16Ē (original Lombardiís) and 18Ē (Johnís) pizzas:

15Ē: 0.0848827-0.090545
16Ē: 0.0746039-0.0795775
18Ē: 0.0589463-0.062876

With these numbers, in due course you may be able to use them with your own bakerís percents calculations from your own tests to devise various scenarios using the Lehmann calculating tool. You might even use different thickness factors than noted above, given the wide variability that can accrue when using volume measurements and different flours with different absorption (hydration) rates, moisture content, humidity, etc.

Evelyne should, of course, note any corrections or errors in my assumptions or analysis inasmuch as everything I did was from the sidelines working with numbers from the book and posts on the forum rather than in the field where the masters made their pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:22:19 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2007, 12:12:08 PM »
Peter,

 ;D

You're Awesome.


Thank-you.


MWTC  :chef:


When will you be publishing your book?

Offline MWTC

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 12:23:18 AM »
Peter,

When SLICEofSLOMON said,

"The hydration is high 65%, salt is at 1% and yeast is pretty minimal at about .25%

The recipe in the book is actually pretty darn close, except that I would change it to 1/4 to 1/8 of a teaspoon of yeast and I would use IDY."

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081.html#msg37081
Reply 298

should the percent of IDY be .125% not .25%?

Show me where/if I'm looking at this wrong.  ???

For 680 grams of flour I get .85 gram of IDY at .125%  not 1.7 grams which I get for .25% IDY. I found it to be twice as strong as it should have been as compared to the revised recipe. When I made batch with the .25% IDY = 1.7 grams at 680 grams flour it was way to puffy after the 4 hr rise. I redid the math and got the .125% and did another batch, not .25%. This felt like the original recipe at 1/8 tsp for 65% Hydration. Did She omit the 1 before the 25? Or am I wrong with the conversion?  :-\

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007, 09:45:35 AM »
MWTC,

When I ran the different scenarios using the Lehmann dough calculator, I decided to use the 0.25% IDY figure Evelyne recommended rather than the 1/8-1/4 teaspoon volume measurement. One of the scenarios I ran, strictly on paper, was this one in which I assumed that I was using 3 cups of bread flour (I believe it was the KA bread flour) and the set of baker’s percents recommended by Evelyne:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (166.25%):
370.27 g  |  13.06 oz | 0.82 lbs
240.67 g  |  8.49 oz | 0.53 lbs
0.93 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
615.57 g | 21.71 oz | 1.36 lbs | TF = N/A

When I ran the same scenario based on using 3 Ĺ cups of flour, the upper end of the range in Evelyne’s recipe, I got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (166.25%):
431.98 g  |  15.24 oz | 0.95 lbs
280.79 g  |  9.9 oz | 0.62 lbs
1.08 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.32 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
718.17 g | 25.33 oz | 1.58 lbs | TF = N/A

As you can see, in both cases, the amount of IDY was around 1/3-teaspoon. I suppose I could have lowered the percent of IDY to get to 1/8-1/4 teaspoon, but since I was already working with somewhat uncertain volume measurements for the flour to begin with--that is, without knowing how the flour was actually measured out--there would have been no guarantee that using a lower IDY quantity would have produced the correct results. Also, we were talking about flours as they existed in the 80s. So, this led me to run a scenario for a 16-ounce dough ball--the upper figure of the 15-16 ounce weight range suggested by Evelyne--using the same set of baker’s percents. When I did that, I got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (166.25%):
272.84 g  |  9.62 oz | 0.6 lbs
177.35 g  |  6.26 oz | 0.39 lbs
0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.73 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

As you can see, in this scenario the IDY is a bit less than ľ-teaspoon. Based on my understanding of what Evelyne said in other posts, the 16-ounce dough ball in this case could be used to make a 15” (Totonno’s-like), 16” (Lombardi’s-like) or 18” (John’s-like) skin. If, in your case, you wanted to make a 12” skin, because you are using a 12” pan, for example, you would have to first decide what dough thickness you are after and then determine the appropriate ingredient amounts using the Lehmann calculator (or its equivalent). Alternatively, you could decide on a dough weight that you would like to work with and use the Dough Weight option of the Lehmann calculator and the above set of baker’s percents to determine the appropriate ingredient quantities.

I might add that based on your use of 680 grams of flour, your calculations of IDY are mathematically correct. It’s possible in your case when you used 0.25% IDY that you left your dough out too long (4 hours) before refrigerating it. The range that Evelyne mentioned was 2-4 hours. If your water was a bit too warm and/or your room temperature was too high, 4 hours may have been too long for 0.25% IDY.

I don’t know if I have solved the riddle for you, but I presented my analysis and thought processes to give you an idea of how I was trying to modify a recipe that is over 20 years old to adapt it to current practices. Having gone through processes like this many times before, I can tell you that it is fraught with peril.


Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2007, 11:26:40 AM »
Peter,

OK, I am still experimenting with Her formulation.

I did bake the first batch with the .125% IDY at 112 degrees and the room temp was what She outlined, 70 degrees. It turned out great. It turned out like a cross between a flat bread pita type and an English muffin. The hydration was 65%. I did knead it for 15 minutes, due to the wetness of the dough. It seemed to come together at about the 13 - 15 min. mark. The pizza was baked directly on the stone, loved the oven spring. It really seemed like an old school pizza. A classic look and feel.

One question. The outer crumb seemed a little tough, not bad but not great, the inside was soft and chewy, perfect to my taste. How do I get the outer shell a little less tough? Did I knead it a little to much?

MWTC  :chef:


EDIT: She said She would change the IDY from 1/4 tsp to 1/8 tsp not a range from 1/4 to 1/8. Am I seeing that correct?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 11:34:58 AM by MWTC »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2007, 12:00:01 PM »
MWTC,

When you said "0.125% IDY at 112 degrees", is the 112 degrees the water temperature you used? If so, and all the water was at 112 degrees, that could well have accounted for the rapid expansion of the dough you previously noted. If you want to rehydrate the IDY in water, as Evelyne had recommended for a home environment, you only need a small amount of warm water.

I am not surprised by the tougher outer crust. That would be fairly typical for a bread flour (or high-gluten flour) crust without oil or sugar. Also, unless you made a large batch of dough, 15 minutes of knead time would seem to be on the high side and might also have contributed to the toughness of the outer crust. If the toughness was not the result of overkneading, the typical choices for getting a more tender, less chewy crust would be to step down to a lower protein flour, such as all-purpose flour in your case, and/or add oil and sugar to the dough. You might also use a higher oven temperature to speed up the bake and prevent the outer crust from getting baked too much, but that might also result in reduced crust browning and possibly a softer, moister crumb.

I interpreted Evelyne's comments on the yeast to mean a range of yeast (1/8-1/4 teaspoon), not to reduce the yeast from 1/4 teaspoon to 1/8 teaspoon.

BTW, what size pizza did you make and how much dough was needed for that pizza?

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2007, 12:38:04 PM »
Peter,

That was exactally one of the questions that I have for Evelyn. Water temperature. I did use the range that she specified in her New York Style Lombardi Formula. What do you suggest?

After looking at it more closely it does look like 1/4 to 1/8 not 1/4 changing to 1/8 for the IDY.

Adding oil will be one of my experiments but I am adding some when I oil the dough before proofing so I don't want to change it to much more. But thats worthy of experimentation.

Sugar, I didn't know that it effects the softness of the outer crumb. I thought sugar added sweetness and effects browning.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2007, 01:06:32 PM »
MWTC,

I don't see any problem if you want to rehydrate the IDY in warm water so long as you only use a small amount of the warm water, typically at 110-115 degrees F. You can also add the IDY directly to the flour if you prefer. Rehydrating IDY in water makes sense if you are using a very small amount of it where it might be difficult to thoroughly disperse within a much much larger volume of flour.

I mentioned sugar more in the context of increasing the tenderness in the crumb rather than the outer crust. The main functions of sugar are to feed the yeast, and provide sweetness and browning for the crust, as you noted. As you know, the original NY style pizza crusts, as exemplified by Evelyne's recipe, used no oil or sugar. So, if you want to maintain that authenticity, you might start with either switching to all-purpose flour, which was also very common with the early NY styles, or use a somewhat faster bake, or possibly both. And don't use any sugar or oil. If you provide the pizza size and dough weight information, maybe there are other possibilities.

Peter

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Hecker's and Ceresota Flours
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2007, 01:54:55 PM »
Hi Guys,

I thought my ears were ringing. I will address your questions later on this week when things thin out for me--especially about then and now. One quick thing I will mention about the
3 1/2 cups of flour in the recipes--is that it calls for UP TO 3 1/2 cups. Usually half a cup was reserved for dusting the work surface. Because I had such different results with the flours I was using and knew that my audience probably wouldn't necessarily have access to the same flours I used in testing, I gave a rather wide range of flour amounts. Going by weight, a cup of different flours can vary as much as a 3-4 ounces--that is quite a bit. I didn't know that then because I was not weighing everything. I did realize that different flours, using the same water measurement, took more or less flour. The Hecker's formula actually worked best at 2 1/2 cups of flour. Also, the yeast was ADY not IDY

I stopped using Heckers when I became a professional pizza maker and used commercial flour--I've used dozens and dozens of different commercial flours for many different clients and all kinds of applications, so let me know what particular applications you are looking for and I can narrow down the field of my favorites.

I will get back to you all in a few days :D

Evelyne