Author Topic: Quality NY toppings & techniques  (Read 57183 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2004, 01:23:03 AM »
Today, I had the painters out-- not much fun doing that stuff.  I'm certainly looking forward to another try at it. By the way, with 11 oz of flour sited above, I am making somewhere around a 15" pizza on a 16" screen (excuse the clumsy finger mark with sauce at top left).
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/ovendough.JPG)

Here's responses to Q's:

Reverse Engineer... In this particular case, the professional (... Fornaio) labels their dough for FDA purposes and I got the label (no trash cans).  Because I've worked with the USDA & FDA before, I can convert ingredients to their relative amounts pretty easily.  The sugar was a no-brainer since they were not listed in the ingredients, and specs were 0g.

Proofing yeast... I got the same results, Pete-zza, when I tried to add the Active Yeast without proofing.  The dough texture had a bunch of ugly pimples in it-- this doesn't happen with another pro I got this from-- I don't know its dough temp; but I'm back to proofing from now on in 1 TBL of water. This works well with my procedure to add it after the first rest period, giving the dough additional rehydration.

House Temp... Interesting, my house temp is 76 F now, and the temp has not budged in a week at this time of night, which is about the time I made it.

Non-hdrogenated shortening... I tell you, this stuff makes a difference.  I would never have used shortening before; but the idea of non-hydrogenated shortening, listed as Palm oil seemed to feel right.  So when I saw the stuff sitting on a store's shelf listed as organic, no trans fat, non-hdrogenated vegetable shortening, with Palm Oil listed in parenthesis, I decided to try it.  1/2 TBL seemed low to me; but oil can deaden dough, despite its other benefits, so it made sense to try it.

King Arthur... Sir Lancelot is 14.7% protein, which is even higher than industry standards of 14.1%, and more than a full point higher than Giusto's 13.5%.  I'm wondering if the palm oil would need to be increased just a bit (maybe a tsp).

Mixing differences... I mix the ingredients in slightly different steps than you like to, Pete-zza.  

- I like the salt to make it all the way through the dough before the yeast is added, as a means to slow down the yeast fermentation.  I risk impact to rehydration since minimal time expires before I add the proofed water.

- I pre-warm the stainless steel bowl with warm water.

- I start by mixing the salt into the flour in the bowl, then add room-temp water with non-hydro vegetable shortening mixed in it.  I mix it with a dough hook just until it comes together, and let it rest for a few minutes.  

- Then I stir the proofed yeast and add it into the dough, and mix at intervals to simulate hand kneading (no more than a minute at a time).  

- I give it a tug to test it's glutency/elasticity.  It should never just break off (that would be really bad).  And it should slightly resist without breaking.  That's my windowpane test.  To get bigger holes in the outer crust, I let the gluten form during refrigeration, keeping my mix time to just a few minutes.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2004, 02:13:43 AM by giotto »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2004, 10:49:35 AM »
Giotto,

Your mix and knead process is a little bit different from what I normally use.   My approach is more along the classic autolyse approach by keeping the salt away from the flour, yeast and water so that the salt, which is hygroscopic, doesn't interfere with hydration and doesn't slow down yeast growth.  In theory, this is suppose to shorten the time needed to develop the gluten and to shorten the hydration time.   Of course, if the objective is to increase fermentation endurance, then the approach you use is appropriate.  It shows that you have first determined what your objectives are and have adjusted the process accordingly to meet those objectives.  

I draw a distinction (which only registered recently, thanks to you) between slowing down yeast growth (and fermentation) and delaying the onset of yeast growth (and fermentation).  Adding the salt to the dough with the yeast already in it has the effect of accomplishing the former and adding the yeast after the salt has been added to the dough has the effect of accomplishing the latter.  I believe from our previous discussions that this is your understanding also and that was the rationale for adding the yeast after the salt.  

When I used to knead bread dough by hand and tried to add salt after the autolyse (with the yeast already in the dough), it was a bear to knead in the salt.  The dough would tighten, develop tears, and become more difficult to knead and stretch.  A machine does the incorporating job far faster and better, of course, but I still see the same effects moments after I add the salt to the dough.  The dough goes a little bit crazy and flails around all over the place until the salt has been fully incorporated.   Do you see the same effects of salt on yeast when you add the yeast after the salt?  

BTW, I used the standard equation to try to calculate your room temperature, based on what you said about the finished dough temperature and water temperature (room temperature water).  I assumed that your flour temperature was also at room temperature, as is almost always the case, and that your slow speed mixing and kneading was adding very little heat to the dough, maybe a few degrees.

Peter




Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2004, 04:39:26 PM »
Pete-zza:

Yes in each of your accounts. I keep the flour within a couple of degrees of room temp, since our room temp is pretty much 73 - 78 F year round (no air conditioning) during the day.  I noticed that many pros around here make their dough in the afternoon for the next day.

Right now, the flour is 73 F and the room is 75 F.  By the time it's mixed in the warm bowl with the salt, it's equal to room temp.  Just as sugar added to grapes doesn't immediately make wine, I use the temp of the dough during mix, yeast timing and full incorporation of salt prior to yeast addition, all for the delay over time as you suggest, so I can develop the acids and other tastes.

I've reduced the problem related to adding yeast later by reducing it down to just 1 TBL of water (lukewarm by the time it is added), AND kneading by hand for a couple of times in the bowl before restarting.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2004, 07:54:07 PM »
Giotto,

I read that most professionals make their dough in the evening for use the next day because the coolers are most efficient during that time period.  During the day, workers are much more likely to open and close the cooler doors and reduce its efficiency and raise the temperature of the dough balls.  

Your use of your hands raises a good point about the need in many cases to use your hands even when you have a mixer to do most of the work.  I'm sure we have all experienced having the dough rise up onto the dough hook and just rotate without really kneading, especially when the amount of dough is not all that great.   Some people recommend spraying the dough hook with a light oil spray, but I haven't found that approach to be infallible.  Usually, the best solution is to just stop the mixer and reorient the dough by hand--maybe several times to be sure that the dough gets enough kneading.  Stopping the mixer occasionally just to get a feel for the dough to be sure it isn't too wet or too dry or to test it to see if it has been sufficiently kneaded is also a good idea, if not a necessity.  And, like you, I will often knead ingredients like yeast, salt and sugar into a dough by hand before putting the dough into the mixer for further processing.  Most recipes are silent as to the need to occasionally intrude on the actions of the machines we use.  They basically say just mix things together and knead for specified times.  This may well be one of the biggest problems for beginning pizza makers or for those who didn't succeed even though they said "I followed the recipe exactly" ;D. The only way I know to avoid using the hands altogether is to use a food processor or a bread machine.   Then, you will have a different set of procedures and challenges to contend with to be sure that the dough comes out right.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 03, 2004, 07:55:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2004, 01:33:49 PM »
When the formula expands to accomodate more pizza doughs per run, I find it increasingly difficult to mix it in at later stages either by hand or machine.  In addition, the possibility of introducing dryness and machine oxidization goes way up in an effort to mix it in.

The use of colder water mixed with flour at the beginning stage intrigues me as a means to add the yeast at an initial stage (proofed in a very small amount of water that reaches room temp by the time it is added).  Based on the yeast temp tables, yeast multiplies at lower temps, just with a slower rate of appetite-- which is fine for me.

Regarding enviornmental temps, each region needs to consider its own seasonal temps (humidity, high heats, etc.) as well as how quickly they want the dough ready.  
« Last Edit: September 04, 2004, 01:36:42 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2004, 05:47:13 PM »
I recently made a batch of dough using my standard New York style dough recipe (previously posted).  I divided the dough in half to yield two dough balls each weighing about 13 ounces.  One of the dough balls was refrigerated for about 24 hours, following which the dough was allowed to come up to room temperature for about 3 hours.  This was longer than I had intended (I was looking for a 1 1/2- to 2-hour rise), but I was interrupted by other matters as the dough was rising.  The dough was extensible and quite elastic but, with a little additional rest, it shaped nicely.   After shaping, the pizza was dressed with a mixture of 6-in-1 and San Marzano tomato sauce with a little Penzeys pizza seasoning; a mixture of mozzarella cheese slices, fresh mozzarella cheese, provolone cheese and freshly grated grana padano cheese; pepperoni; chopped green pepper; a high-quality olive oil; and fresh basil (added after baking).  The pizza was baked on a pizza stone preheated for one hour at 500-550 degrees F.

The crust of the finished pizza was a little bit breadier than I like and not quite as leathery as I usually strive for in my New York style pizza crusts.  This may have been attributable to the longer period of rising after taking the dough out of the refrigerator.  It  strikes me that to make a good New York style pizza dough it is best not to have long knead times and gluten development and to not let the dough rise too much before shaping and dressing.  Along with that, the use of a small amount of yeast and little or no sugar would seem to insure that the dough not rise too much and develop an open crumb structure, which is conducive to breadiness rather than leatheriness.  The next time I follow the recipe, I plan to omit the autolyse and knead only the minimum, and let the refrigeration do most of the heavy lifting.  

In any event, the photo below shows what the finished pizza looked like.
Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2004, 06:00:50 PM »
In my previous post, I indicated that I had made enough dough for two New York style pizzas.  Whereas the first piece of dough was subjected to a period of refrigeration of around 24 hours, the second piece of dough was subjected to a period of refrigeration of about 48 hours.  When I removed the second dough ball from the refrigerator to come up to room temperature, I noticed that the dough had expanded in volume a bit more that the first dough ball.  After a rise period of about 1 1/2 hours, the dough was soft and easy to handle--moreso than the first dough ball.  As with the first dough ball, I had little trouble tossing the dough as I was shaping it.  The second pizza was dressed almost identically to the first pizza except that I substituted sauteed mushrooms for the green pepper and I baked the pizza on a pizza screen rather than the pizza stone.  

The photo below shows the results of the second pizza.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2004, 06:23:19 PM »
In a previous post (Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg4691.html#msg4691), I indicated that I had made my first batch of pizza dough for a New York style pizza in my Zo bread machine.  I disregarded the instructions for dough making that I found in the instruction booklet for the machine and just used my standard New York style dough ingredients and quantities.  As previously noted, the dough coming out of the bread machine was warm to the touch.  The dough, weighing about one pound, was refrigerated and used the next day.  The pizza was dressed with a 6-in-1 tomato sauce with fresh sliced tomatoes; mozzarella and provolone cheeses; pepperoni; chopped green peppers; a good-quality olive oil; and fresh basil (added after baking).  I intend to try the bread maker again, but this time use cool or cold water to try to keep the finished dough temperature down.  

The photo below shows the finished product.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 10:45:33 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2004, 08:55:52 PM »
Pete-zza:

First and foremost, let me say, I am totally impressed that you took your talents beyond pizza making and into learning that digital camera of yours.

The pictures are very good and it looks seriously scrumptuous.   Maybe you can share the following with us:

1) you had talked earlier of combining screen & rock-- is this what you did the 2nd time, or did you just use the screen?

2) what was the difference in texture, taste (reduction in sweetness?) & color (browning looks similar despite additional 24 hours) between the 1st and 2nd?  

3) How did the 3rd differ in breadiness, chewiness, taste, browning, etc. (browning looks lighter; but maybe picture)?

4) What size pizza did you create with a 13 oz dough?

If you get a chance to photograph a cut slice for thickness, etc., that would be great.  

I noticed the comment suggesting an open crumb structure necessitates breadiness rather than a leathery texture.  Actually, I have had my share of San Francisco breads and NY pizza crusts with a nice airy structure and holes that have a wonderful pull and chew to them.

Thanks again for the pictures.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 04:17:36 PM by giotto »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2004, 12:40:42 PM »
Giotto,

I should be the one thanking you for coaxing me off of the sidelines with the camera, especially for a site like this one, where a photo conveys much more information than words alone.  Fortunately, after I got all of the photos out of the camera and onto my hard drive, I had some help from a friend who has the same model camera and a ton of experience using it.  He helped expedite the learning process, especially on how to size the photos so that they can be posted on this site.

As for the two pizzas I made on two separate days (the 26- and 48-hour versions), the first pizza had a diameter of about 14 inches (the largest size my peel and pizza stone can accommodate) and was baked directly on the stone; the second pizza was nearly 16 inches in diameter and was baked entirely on the 16-inch pizza screen.  So, the second pizza had a thinner crust.  The coloration of the top crusts for both pizzas was about the same, as you noted, however the bottom crust of the second pizza was darker than the first.  I attribute this to the close proximity of the pizza screen to the bottom electric coil (even though I was using a lower oven temperature than usual) and also to the thinness of the second crust.   Part way through baking, I moved the second pizza to a higher oven rack to keep the crust from burning.  In both cases, there was enough sugar left in the dough, along with the higher protein levels, to promote browning.  

I did not particularly notice any differences in sweetness.  I did not add any sugar to the recipe to begin with, and since most flours have only about 1 to 2 percent natural sugar bound up in the starch, I'm not sure that I would be able to detect the sweetness on the tongue (I understand that it takes above 4 to 5 percent sugar to detect it on the palate).

When I referred to breadiness, I was thinking more of the rims of the pizzas rather than the rest of the crusts.  The rims are thicker and that is where the open crumb is most noticeable, both visually and when eaten.  There was some openess to the structure of the rest of the crusts, but the crusts didn't quite have the chewiness and leathery character that I personally prefer in my New York style pizzas.  This is the reason I am thinking of slightly modifyng my original recipe to see if I can achieve those favored characteristics.  The previous time I made the recipe, I was using a food processor and it is possible that the dough formed using that machine was different from the one using the stand mixer.

With respect to the third pizza--the one made using dough processed by the bread machine--I found the crust of that pizza to be too bready also for my taste.  As I previously noted, I had allowed the dough to go through the full cycle of the machine, and it exhibited a faster rise than usual, both coming out of the machine and while it was in the refrigerator.  The more open character carried through to the baked pizza.  The next time I try the bread machine to make a New York style dough, I will remove the dough from the machine before rising and put it directly into the refrigerator.

When I checked the camera photos this morning, I noticed that I did take a photo of a slice--for the 26-hour version mentioned above.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 12:45:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2004, 05:41:07 PM »
Pete-zza:

Your crust on the 14" doesn't look that thin and your outside crust is good.  It reminds me that a 14 oz dough (about 8.5 oz of flour with 60% liquid) used to meet my needs for a 14" pizza.    

I'm stepping aside from Giusto's 13 - 13.5% flour for awhile.  The flour is like dust when mixed with water-- oversaturates way too easily. The lack of pigmentation is an issue no matter how little/manual it is mixed (always white oxidized look to it).  

I'm trying a Pendelton Power hi-gluten unbleached flour.   I assume it's around an industry 14.1% protein.  Really easy to work with when it comes to a 60% fluid to flour mix.  Decent cream color when mixed, and easticity is created with minimal kneading.  It stretches, yet never over-stretches when tossing it.  Oven browning and rising were excellent with only 4g (1 TBL) of sugar, 3/4 tsp salt, 3/8 tsp active yeast (proofed) and 20 hours of refrigeration.  

Regarding the pizza screen, I would recommend starting near the top, and moving it to the bottom for close to a minute-- sometimes without the screen.  This will give the crust a slightly crisp bottom, without burning.

For those who wonder how little yeast is really needed, here's an example where a professional is using 4 tsp of instant yeast for 40 lb of high gluten flour, which is about the amount that I've seen used.  This is about 1/16 tsp per 10 oz of flour.  The owner's only crime is leaving the dough out a regular temperature too long according to Tom L at PMQ:

http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/986
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 08:01:42 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2004, 10:53:47 AM »
Pete-zza:

At 22 oz of flour, 1 tsp active yeast was more than I needed.  I'm down to 3/8 tsp active yeast for 11 oz of flour, and that is plenty for a good rise, bubbles, etc.  I expect that 1/4 tsp active yeast will be good for my next mix.  With my SAF instant, I'd feel comfortable with 1/8 tsp.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 10:56:17 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2004, 03:41:17 AM »
Since 4 tsp of instant yeast is enough for 40 lbs of flour, this is what 1/4 tsp of active yeast will give you with 10 oz of flour:

Enough for a nice outer crust:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/qtr-yeast.JPG)


With a nice medium thickness toward the end:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/qtr-yeast-slice.JPG)

Offline Pierre

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2004, 04:59:40 AM »
very nice looking Pizza Giotto....

I wrote a long time ago after speaking to a Master Baker here in Germany that very little yeast is necessary, I've been using 1ml of yeast (1/5 tsp) for 250 grams of flour for quite awhile now.

I think the amount can be decreased even more.  

Pierre

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2004, 12:50:04 PM »
Giotto:

you get some very nice color in the edge of the crust.
To what do you attribute this to.

Do you brush it with oil?

How much, if any, sugar is in your dough?

At what temp., where in the oven, and on what was it cooked (stone/screen)?

How Long was it cooked???

Thanks ;D ;D ;D
Ahhh, Pizza The Fifth Food Group

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2004, 01:04:38 PM »
Giotto,

Is the pizza dough you made based on the Pendleton Power high-gluten flour that you mentioned in a recent post?  If so, it produces a mighty fine pizza, even with the algae :).

Peter

« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 04:56:15 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2004, 03:41:59 PM »
Foccaciaman:

I attribute the color to many of the things you mention.  Although I don't like to rub the crust with oil before going in the oven-- it seems to deaden the texture for me.

Ingredients:
- ratio of salt to sugar, in this case 1 to 3 (1/2 tsp salt to 1 1/2 tsp sugar).  
- Low amount of active yeast (1/4 tsp Red Star active proofed)
- High Gluten Flour (Pendleton in Oregon, available at restaurant supply stores)

Refrigeration:
- Immediate refrigeration.
- Set in steel holder for first hour, before switching to a plastic bag (the free stuff from produce sections)
- Remove after 14 hours, in this case 20 hours.
- Let sit out 1 hour before preparing for oven.

Oven/Screen Technique:
- Screen only
- Oven 530 F (preheated only a few minutes)
- Heat 1 minute on bottom, no toppings
- Start 6" from top 6 1/2 to 7 minutes, with toppings
- Move to bottom 45 - 60 seconds (sometimes no screen)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 11:33:58 PM by giotto »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2004, 04:17:43 PM »
Giotto,

Thanks for expanding on your efforts with the Pendelton flour.

I am curious about your 1 to 3 ratio of salt to sugar.  Is that a standard ratio, or something you came up with through your own work with doughs.  Also, I noted that you, like canadave, use a metal container (canadave uses cookie tins) for holding the dough before transferring it to a plastic bag.  I remember when I was into sourdough breads and following Nancy Silverton's recipes, she suggested that metal containers not be used to hold dough since metal conducts heat away from the dough.  For one hour, or even overnight, I can't imagine that this would be a problem.   Is there a particular reason why you have chosen to use a metal container?

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2004, 04:40:27 PM »
Pete-zza:

Yes, Pendleton Power unbleached high gluten.  I was pleased as well when Tony G recommended it to me at a pizza party. Great guy who started the US Pizza team with PMQ.  Here's some of his other recommendations: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002fall/dough.shtml

Pendleton is a breeze when using 60% water. Cost me a whopping $8 for 50 lbs at a restaurant supply store (United Cash & Carry).  Since I'm not working with all 50 lbs of flour at once or producing 70 doughs, I can mix minimally and get all the benefits of elasticity and airy crust while avoiding dough oxidization.  

I knead as follows:

- Low machine knead w/dough hook until put together.  
- Wait 3 minutes. Knead with hook another minute.  
- Hand knead 5 or 6 times, then finish off with just over a minute with the machine dough hook.  

I refrigerate with dough at around 81 F (discussed above) without any issues.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2004, 04:54:40 PM »
Pierre,

I know from having read just about all your posts that you are a big fan and advocate of the use of small amounts of yeast and cooler temperatures (e.g. water temperatures).  Do you follow this practice with all types of doughs, or only certain ones?  

Having thought about this some, it strikes me that there is a continuum that runs from using large amounts of yeast and high temperatures at one end of the spectrum to using small amounts of yeast and low temperatures at the other end of the spectrum, and that as you move from left to right along the continuum, and with all other things being equal, the quality of the end product (the crust) should in theory at least improve because of the increased by-products of fermentation and more developed gluten.   In other words, the duration of fermentation, whether it occurs at room temperature or in the refrigerator, or a combination of both, becomes the most important determinant of overall quality of the finished crust.  I realize that there are many other factors that come into play, such as types of flours and the use and amounts of other ingredients, such as salt, sugar, oils, etc., as well as technique, but does the proposition that I have expressed above fit with your understanding and reason why you favor using small amounts of yeast and low temperatures, or is there something else I am not properly taking into account?  

Peter
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 05:13:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2004, 05:03:10 PM »
Pete-zza:

Yes, I was taught 1 to 2 or 3 for 14% high protein as a standard, where consistency was everything.  I deviate from it every now and then with lower glutens, as you know, but it gives me the highest consistency in taste and color with the right flour.  

I've seen pizzerias throw out all their plastics, and switch to metal at a cost for the complete opposite reason.  It produces the coldest environment around the dough as quickly as possible.  I was told that if Neo style is what I wanted, then wood is preferable because how it affects hydration; otherwise, go for the cold.  Since I fold over the tops after an hour, I keep it loosely covered at first.

You'll notice that the one area where T. Lehman recommended immediate change in one of the URLs mentioned above was leaving the dough out for the first few hours, rather than cross stacking in refrigeration, and then restacking.  You'll also notice that he didn't touch the close to 1 to 3 ratio of salt to sugar or 4 tsp of yeast for 40 lbs of flour.  While some people like extensible doughs, others prefer elastic.  I like a combination.  And I know that it takes about 8 hours for enzymes to yield most of the sugars.  I get the best feel from lower yeast doughs, and prefer lower temperatures to reduce yeast activity from depleting the sugars in the dough, which in turn give the yeast enough time to churn out more acids.  In the end, I look to get great color and great taste without added ingredients over 16 - 48 hours.  I have seen 1 week without the use of any sugars work well with one pro's dough.  It will be interesting to see what longer terms yield with the new flour.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 05:29:18 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2004, 05:32:42 PM »
Giotto,

Thanks for the added insights.  

I read that DiFara's, the well-known Brooklyn pizzeria, uses wood trays for proofing purposes.  Although I haven't yet been to DiFara's to see for myself, based on what I have read about the DiFara pizzas I would describe their pizzas as a cross between Neapolitan style and New York style pizzas.  The DiFara dough is apparently made from a mix of Delverde 00 flour and a high-gluten flour.  Having played around with such a combination a few times, I would say that the pizza leans more toward the Neapolitan style than the New York style, especially when there is no refrigeration of the dough.

I went back to Nancy Silverton's book to see in what context she suggested that one avoid metal containers.  It was in the context of a room temperature rise, not specifically the retardation part of the process.  I think you (and canadave) are right.  It would seem that a metal container in the refrigerator would promote cooling faster than a non-metal container.  

Earlier this afternoon, I posted a message to Pierre, one of the well-respected pizza "technologists" on this forum, about the role that time plays in the process of producing a high quality dough and crust.   Knowing that you are an avid experimenter, I would welcome your observations also.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 05:44:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2004, 06:17:43 PM »
Pete-zza:

I have learned that there are professionals who know what they know because they bought a place from someone else; and then there are those who seem to be in a whole different ball game.  This latter bunch can come in all kinds too.  My favorites are the ones with families from Italy, who were willing to continue to develop beyond their family secrets by rubbing major elbows world-wide.  By speaking to the latter, and reading to learn more on the topic, I have experimented as you suggest to see how I can best attain my own preferences at home.  But it's only after a great deal of learning, and after starting to see certain things validated from others.

The concept of cold and its impact on fermentation is covered briefly in American Pie.  Lehman has entire dissertations on similar topics, and he covers the relationship between ingredients on thin vs. thicker doughs which vary quite a bit.  You'll find some of my comments regarding delayed fermentation above.  

In the end, it's like I was reminded of recently... there is just no one way to do things, except your own.  And I'm quickly arriving at that point.  But even this varies.  Last night, for example, I enjoyed a bready calzone that I enjoyed in a pizza sandwich format.  Yet, I often try to avoid such a crust.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2004, 11:30:16 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2004, 12:35:10 AM »
Oh man, I just saw a back yard wood oven to die for, apparently right out of Tuscany.  The owners love it and gave me this site.  There are reasons why the learning doesn't stop... just when I figure it out, the equation gets stuff added to it.  This is a trip that I can make though (compared to Italy anyways). http://www.mugnaini.com/
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 12:37:39 AM by giotto »

Offline DKM

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Re:Quality NY toppings & techniques
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2004, 09:02:46 AM »
To quote my 4 YO, "I need, I need"

DKM
I'm on too many of these boards