Author Topic: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!  (Read 33630 times)

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Offline Villa Roma

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Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« on: July 14, 2007, 04:30:45 AM »
"PIZZA, THE FINAL FRONTIER. THIS IS THE TEST OF THE SPIRAL DOUGH HOOK CURLY, HIS 30-MINUTE MISSION, TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW DOUGHS, TO SEEK OUT NEW RECIPES AND TECHNIQUES, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO DOUGH HOOK HAS GONE BEFORE!!!!!"  :-D :-D :-D

I'm not a big sci-fi fan but I just couldn't resist the spoof! Can you just hear the ST theme running through your head? Enough of this silliness, let's get started on our own.....pizza trek.

I have a Kitchenaid 5 quart mixer model K5SS. When the new "Pro" model mixers came out with the spiral hook I knew I had to have one of those puppies. The spiral hook just looks so professional and soooooo cool. 8) I guess you could say I was hooked! :-D The only problem was that KA does not recommend using the spiral hook on a C hook mixer.:( I decided to throw caution to the wind  >:D and ordered a spiral hook (ebay) and proceeded to make a batch of pizza to road test the performance of the new spiral hook technology. I used the following recipe:

88 grams Hodgson Mills stone ground rye flour
178 grams Hodgson Mills stone ground WW flour
534 grams General Mills all purpose flour
528 grams 55 degree water (66%)
3/4 cup rye preferment
16 grams salt (2%)
24 grams sugar (3%)
32 grams olive oil (4%)

As you can see this batch is over 1500 grams (3.3 lbs) :o with 1/3 of the flour comprised as whole grains. I also used cool 8) water. The combination of large batch size, whole grains and cool water usually translates into big trouble for any mixer. Undaunted, I forged ahead adding everything except 1/2 cup of the ap flour into the mixer bowl. I ran the mixer on stir for 2 minutes to combine everything adding small amounts of the reserved flour as needed to keep the dough ball unified. I let the dough sit for 20 minutes and finished with a 6 minute mix on stir, again, adding small amounts of flour. The finished dough temp was 70 degrees.

K5 never even broke a sweat and was barely warm. I measured the temp of the mixer with my Ratec IR thermometer and it came in at a tepid 85 degrees at the warmest point. That's not even body temperature folks! ::) I made a video of the process and I'll post it on YouTube when I get a chance to edit it. The spiral hook is awesome and the dough did not climb the hook like it tends to do with the C (short for crappy?) hook.

The take home message is that the spiral hook can be used with the C hook mixers without a problem as long as you steer clear of high gluten flour and low hydration dough. I've read that some folks have trouble with the spiral hook even on mixers designed for it. Even KA will tell you that NONE of their mixers are engineered to withstand the rigors of mixing heavy bread and pizza dough. 

If you want a mixer to knead heavy dough then the legendary Hobart N50 would be a better choice. Keep in mind that Hobart recommends a batch size of no more than 3.6 pounds using 60% AR, high gluten flour and 70 degree water. I'm not sure if anyone, including Hobart, has tested the spiral hook on the N50. (http://www.hobartcorp.com/assets/specsheets/F-7533(12-03).pdf)

Use the spiral hook on your mixer at your own risk as this post is simply a reflection of my experience and not a recommendation for anyone to disregard KAs guidance. >:D >:D >:D

Looks like I'll only be using my C hook with my pirate costume on Halloween!!!!! Arrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!  You are a Pirate!!!!

        Beam me up (for pizza) Scotty.......Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 04:21:43 AM by Villa Roma »


Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2007, 04:45:41 AM »
Here's a picture of K5 sporting "Curly", 8) the spiral hook. Ynuk, ynuk, ynuk!!!!

        Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 03:10:49 PM by Villa Roma »

Offline Garlic head

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 05:05:33 AM »
Villa Roma,
It's funny, I was just thinking about this just yesterday. I've been considering doing the exact same thing you did and was going to start researching this morning. :o
I have the KSM150. My dough batches are generally in the 500-900g range. I can't see why I would have a problem using a spiral hook with my machine. I wonder why KA doesn't recommend this. I'm sure i will learn more about this as the day goes on. I simply don't like the way the C hook does the job for me.
Kevin

Edit: It appears I am out of luck with this idea. Apparently, I can't use a spiral hook on this machine. :(
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 05:20:32 AM by Garlic head »

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 05:23:41 AM »
Garlic....I must have read your mind! Seriously, my best guess is that KA doesn't want to be responsible for mixers damaged from people pushing the envelope with heavy dough batches. It's like everything, as long as you understand the limitations of the technology and respect those limitations, you'll be fine. Just like you wouldn't want to race a VW beetle in the Indy 500 but it is more than adequate performing as normal transportation. The other side of the coin is KA would much rather sell you a $300+ mixer than a $20 dough hook. ;)

I think KA could make a retrofit kit for the old mixers for less than $50 including the hook.......if they wanted to.  

        Villa Roma

« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 02:12:46 AM by Villa Roma »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2007, 08:59:41 AM »
This is a matter that comes up from time to time. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2249.msg19741.html#msg19741.

Peter

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2007, 12:48:18 PM »
Here's a few pizzas made with (Curly) the spiral hook and the aforementioned recipe. The first two pizzas took 3 1/2 minutes and the last one cooked in 3 minutes flat. 8)

        Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 03:11:57 PM by Villa Roma »

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 01:39:28 AM »
Hi all.

I posted the video of the above pizza dough recipe being kneaded in my K5SS mixer with the spiral hook. Nothing fancy, just the mixer doing its thing and me performing a few unsafe acts like moving the bowl up and down and scraping the bowl with the mixer running, but that's how I roll. :-[ Kids, don't try this at home! :-X

Here's the link to YouTube: ()

        Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 04:03:22 AM by Villa Roma »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yah Baby!!!!
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 07:12:07 AM »
Villa Rosa,

Thanks for posting the You Tube link. I can see how much better the spiral hook works compared with the C-hook. I, too, use a spatula to help move the ingredients from the sides of the bowl toward the center. It looks like your spatula is similar to mine, which is a long, thin, plastic, semi-flexible spatula. The one I use is shown in the photo at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33252/topicseen.html#msg33252 (Reply 1). It was given to me by a friend so I don't know where one would get one like mine. Perhaps a cake decorating store. I use the spatula with the machine running except that I use mostly the slow speeds (stir/1). By the time I get to a higher speed (usually speed 2), pretty much everything has been scraped from the sides of the bowl. I consider that simple spatula to be one of my most valuable tools. It looks like it will also work well with a spiral hook based on what your video shows.

Peter

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2007, 01:24:14 AM »
Pete-zza,

I picked up my scraper back in the early 80s at Montgomery Wards (Monkey Wards :-D). I bought two and sadly one had to be retired but this one is still going strong. I wish I'd bought more! It's nice and slim so I can swoop in and out of the bowl quickly, like a ninja ::). In retrospect, I should have sprayed the bowl with Pam prior to mixing the dough, especially with rye flour which has very little gluten and tends to be sticky.

I purposely left this dough a little more hydrated and doubled the oil as this was my first test batch with the spiral hook and I didn't want to push my luck, just in case I encountered any unforeseen turbulence. Next time I'll put the pedal to the medal and use my regular recipe. >:D Should be smooth sailing.

        Villa Roma


 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 12:05:57 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2007, 07:26:00 AM »
As a follow up to the previous test of the spiral hook, I made a batch of dough using my regular recipe. The original test batch was more hydrated and had double the oil as I wanted to minimize the stress on my mixer during initial testing of the spiral hook.

I used less preferment and oil and also used 1/3 of the flour as HK bread flour in this batch. Again the mixer plowed right through without a hitch. The dough was mixed for 2 minutes on stir to combine all the ingredients while adding about 1/2 cup of the reserved flour. I then let the dough rest for 20 minutes and then mixed on stir for another 2 minutes. The dough rose at room temp for 8 hours with a stretch and fold about half way through. Bake temp was 675 degrees >:D for just over 3 minutes in the LBE.

Video of mixer and spiral hook with this batch: ()
Video of stretch and fold after 4 hour rise: ()

The recipe:

133 grams Hodgson Mills stone ground rye flour
133 grams Hodgson Mills stone ground WW flour
267 grams General Mills all purpose flour
267 grams General Mills Harvest King flour
352 grams 55 degree water (44%)
176 grams milk (22%)
1/4 cup rye preferment
16 grams salt (2%)
16 grams sugar (2%)
16 grams olive oil (2%)
1/4 tsp IDY

Some pics of the pizza.

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 02:54:45 AM by Villa Roma »


Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2007, 08:14:36 AM »
Villa Roma very nice you tube films. I totally agree with you regarding the spiral hook. I have the same KitchenAid you have and thought why not try the spiral hook and just don't over do the amount made for each batch. It works great and the mixer is fine. I think KitchenAid would rather have everyone buy a another mixer instead of experimenting with their original mixers... Your pie pictures look great as well. I'm still experimenting with my grill outside.. Thanks for all your demos...

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2007, 12:39:15 AM »
MTPIZZA...Glad to hear you've been having success with the spiral hook. I've had the spiral hook for a very short time and only made two batches of pizza dough so I'm still in the honeymoon phase. It's literally the best invention since sliced pizza! :-D I wanted to know if there were any long term issues that might surface from using the spiral hook on a non spiral mixer. The canned statement from the KA reps stating that you can't use the spiral on mixers that are not designed for it because the spiral hook exerts a more vertical force etc. just wasn't good enough and left me thirsting for knowledge.

Like an oasis in the desert, my thirst was suddenly quenched when I found a post on KAs very own site that spells it out nicely with pictures of the Pro 600 mixer shaft. I copied the pictures and doctored them to show the differences since not everyone is hardware savvy.

Here's the link to the KA post. About halfway down this post is a link to the post with the pictures of the two mixers and an explanation of the differences. Both posts are interesting reads.
(http://forum.kitchenaid.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14525&SearchTerms=spiral)

Looks like they beefed up the retaining ring and added a thrust washer to the redesigned shaft. The concern with the non spiral mixers is that the vertical force of the spiral hook will either drive the bushing up into the mixer housing or pop the retaining ring out of it's groove (doubtful), pushing the shaft into the mixer housing, in either case, damaging the mixer. The thrust washer on the Pro 600 prevents the retaining clip from pushing up on the bushing as it will grind against the mixer housing instead. This is not the best solution but I'm sure it was one of the cheapest. Not sure if any filings will find their way into the dough but we could probably all use a little more iron in our diets anyway. :-D

The bushing is a press fit so the tolerances have to be pretty tight. Due to variations in the manufacturing process, it's possible to have a mixer with a somewhat loose fitting bushing that could easily migrate into the gear housing and cause damage to the mixer. I don't believe there is very much vertical force when mixing a dough in the mid 60s hydration range but I'll keep an eye peeled on the bushing and retaining clip on my mixer, just in case.

MTPIZZA, how long have you had the spiral hook and how many batches have you made with it? It would be nice to know if anyone has had any long term experience with this. You can't trust much of what KA has to say about this as there is an obvious conflict of issue going on here.

           I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV >:D.......Villa Roma

« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 02:28:42 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2007, 07:05:56 AM »
I have used it for over a year now without any noticable changes in my mixer. I have never gone over using more than 3 cups of flour at once. I just usually make a 2 cup batch since its just my wife and I making two nice individual pies. I could see a problem if the batches were large maybe anything more than 4 cups at a time-- especially if you are using high gluten flour. I noticed in your video your dough ball is a fairly good size, how do your grams break down into approx cups... One other thing is that the bowl is a different configuration I think in the Pro 600 mixer.
So, KitchenAid has discouraged its customers of using the spiral hook with the standard mixer, (I have the 5quart mixer)...but if you just keep your batches down to a manageable size I don't think there is a problem..

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2007, 02:47:53 AM »
I used a total of 800 grams of flour, so according to the nutrition facts label on the bags of flour, 120 grams equals one cup of flour. So my batch was 6 2/3 cups of flour.

Interestingly, KA rates their new mixers with what they call a "Flour Power" rating system. They give each mixer a maximum flour capacity rating based on all purpose flour. Bread flour and whole grain flour are considered specialty flour so using them with the 5 quart mixer KA recommends that you divide the recommended flour capacity in half.

Using this system I took the 533 grams of specialty flour in my batch and multiplied it by 2 which equals 1066. Add in the 266 grams of all purpose flour and my batch was equivalent to an 11 cup batch using all purpose flour. 1066 plus 266=1332, 1332 divided by 120=11.1 cups.

In the past I've made batches with 1000 grams of bread flour. According to the flour power rating that would be equivalent to 16 2/3 cups of all purpose flour! :o 

My mixer is 12 years old and has never given me any trouble. It's a 220 volt model and recently started to leak oil so I took it apart and changed out the nylon gear. The gear showed some wear so as a preventative measure, I replaced it while I had the mixer apart. It only cost $15. I reused the original gasket and just spread a thin amount of RTV gasket material over both sides. Let it cure for 24 hours and reassemble, good as new. I also reused the original grease.

I make 8 pizzas at a time and then freeze them. My pizzas are about 9" in diameter for which I use 180 grams of dough. I usually take them to work for lunch a couple of times a week. The next time I make pizza I'll shoot a video of my pizza oven, affectionately dubbed, the Little Black Egg or LBE. Look for it in a week or three by searching "Little Black Egg" or "LBE" on YouTube.

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 03:08:56 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2007, 06:58:36 AM »
Wow thats a lot of cups of flour... you certainly are leading the way. The repair you did on your mixer gives hope to many who may experience your situation. I really baby my mixer, pizza dough and homeade pasta with the pasta maker attachments is all I really use it for. Villa.. when you said you make 8 pizzas at a time and freeze them.. do you mean that you just freeze the dough or you make the pie up and freeze a completed raw pie?? Thats something I was thinking about making up a batch of dough --divide it up and freeze it for later. I'm sure the there is a thawing technique that would have to be employed to get the rise of the yeast after thawing. I can't wait to see the youtube on your little black egg... that cajun burner you use is the best really great-- I was telling my brother about it and we both thought it was a great invention combining the weber with the burner. Thanks for sharing!

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2007, 03:19:37 PM »
I make 8 pizzas, one at a time and then bake all 8 of them, one after another. I let them cool off on racks and then freeze them. I take them to work frozen and by lunch time they are ready to put in the toaster oven or the microwave.

I've never tried freezing an uncooked pizza and then baking at a later time. Sounds like a good idea!

I'll make a short video of the LBE this weekend but I won't be making pizza until next weekend so I'll post the LBE video in a few days and when I make pizza, I'll just string the two together for the final cut.


      Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 02:05:33 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline bakerboy

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2007, 06:05:30 PM »
I'm trying to post but villa roma's enthusiasm has caught my freakin hair on fire!!
I love the spiral hook and your dough recipe.  Lots of flavor goin on there i can tell.  awesome pics too.  Nice to see someone take a hunk of dough and whack it into a ball like a pro.
Can you tell a difference in the development of the dough since you started using the spiral?  It certainly looks well developed.

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2007, 01:23:48 AM »
Bakerboy....Better get a fire extinguisher on that hair! Personally, I can't afford to loose any more! :-D

There are several advantages to using the spiral hook over the C hook. When I used the C hook I would start out mixing on the stir setting and then, shortly thereafter, the dough would climb up onto the hook. I would then switch to speed 2 and the centrifugal force would propel the dough from the hook, slapping it against the sides of the bowl. I would also move the bowl up and down while mixing as there was still a tendency for the dough to climb the hook. This worked OK but the dough took a beating and the gluten would get more developed than I liked, resulting in a tough crust. If you eat all your pizza after it's freshly baked then it's not as bad but I usually eat one pizza and let the rest cool and then freeze them which seems to magnify the effect.

The spiral hook turns the dough over onto itself with a folding action. The dough does not climb the hook and I am able to mix the entire time on stir speed. My total mix time is 4 minutes but the first 1-2 minutes are really spent just combining the ingredients so the resulting crust is noticeably more tender. KA says that one minute of mixing in their stand mixer is equivalent to 4 minutes of hand kneading. So that translates to about 12 minutes of hand kneading for this batch of dough.

KA warns to only use speed 2 when mixing bread or pizza dough primarily because the cooling fan is not spinning fast enough to provide adequate cooling to the motor. Since I'm mixing for such a short time that's not an issue, evidenced by the fact that the mixer is barely warm when I finish.

The common belief is that the more developed the gluten is the better the pizza will be. This may be true for some types of pizza but in Europe they either knead the dough by hand or use a spiral or fork mixer as they are much more gentle on the dough. They also use low gluten flour, similar to our all purpose flour which has more flavor than the high gluten flours. Notice that my first pizza recipe uses whole grain flour and all purpose flour. The second batch used a 1/3 mix of each, whole grain, all purpose and Harvest King bread flour. You don't need high gluten flour to make great pizza!

The bottom line is that using the spiral hook is literally equivalent to an extreme makeover for your mixer. It mixes better and faster, plus there's the cool factor! 8) With a cost of just $20, this may be one of the biggest no-brainers of the century! I see no reason to ever use the C hook again. That would be like going backwards.

      Villa Roma

« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 12:06:55 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2007, 06:59:55 AM »
Great video.... your set up is the answer to a great cooked pie... the heat comes up around the edge of the stone and cooks the edge of the pie nicely with that great browning and char effect. Plus you are getting that great heat from the burner below. I was wondering what you originally used that burner for?? were you into cajun gumbo or whole fried turkeys???
I agree with you that you don't need high gluten flour to make great pizza. I have found that doing a method such as you explain allows the dough to hydrate properly and then be able to cook and rise to a crispy light crust upon completion. As far as I'm concerned you have conquered the almighty grilling of outdoor pizza-- hands down!!! thanks for sharing.

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Spiral hook on a C hook Kitchenaid? Yeah Baby!!!!
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2007, 01:49:19 AM »
MTPIZZA....I bought the propane burner solely to use with the LBE to cook pizza. You can use the burner for many things like brewing beer, boiling lobster and corn or frying turkeys etc. as you mentioned.

Here are 2 solutions to the issues surrounding useage of the spiral hook on a C hook mixer. The fix would simply involve removing the planetary housing and performing 2 machining operations. The illustration is for the K5SS mixer. The first illustration is the original design, followed by the 2 solutions.

Solution 1:
The first operation would be to widen the retaining ring groove on the attachment shaft to accept a new heavy duty retaining ring.

The second operation would be to remove some material from around the planetary housing to allow space for a thrust washer and a nylon washer. A metal washer can also be used in lieu of the nylon washer. A machine shop would be able to do this work or someone with a lathe and drill press.

Solution 2:
The second illustration shows another fix using a redesigned bushing. It's a little more involved as the original bushing would have to be pressed out and replaced with a redesigned bushing but would be a better solution. The machining operations are similar to solution 1.

Seems like someone could make a fortune modifying these mixers. Charge $30 and make $20 profit. You can easily modify 4 per hour so that would be $80 per hour or $640 a day!!! :o :o :o Let's just say there are 1 million mixers out there, can you say..... CHA-CHING?  Sure, I knew you could!

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 02:50:25 AM by Villa Roma »