Author Topic: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven  (Read 184815 times)

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Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #400 on: December 09, 2007, 09:59:25 PM »
Willard,

I have been comparing All Trumps vs KASL in the 2stone Oven. All Trumps wins. The flavor is better. The KASL has a slightly more plain taste.

I am using a 15% starter to flour weight,fully activated. I then create a 55% hydrated "natural Biga" using the starter, and allow it to ferment for 24 hours at room temperature.. I then combine the remaining ingredients using cold water from the fridge. Mix it for 2 minutes, Riposo for 20 minutes, then knead for 5 minutes. Ball it up and allow it to cold ferment for at least 2 days. I allow at least 45 minute room temperature warm up and bake after the 2 stone has warmed up for 20 minutes, at full throttle. I am baking in a 1 1/2 inch steel/tin pan. Four minutes is working for me.

The recipe:

800 grams Flour
504 grams water = 63%
Included in the above is 120 grams of 50/50 starter = 15% to flour
1 Tbs Kosher salt
1 Tbs Olive Oil
1 Tbs Honey

Creates 3 -14oz. doughs, plus 1 -5 oz. mini dough

I'm very happy with this recipe and technique. Its working very well so far. Thanks to the 2stone Oven.

Thanks again Willard, You are the Man!!!

MWTC  :chef:



Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #401 on: December 12, 2007, 02:57:34 PM »
MWTC,

Interesting, You are really getting a consistent char on your crust.
I've been playing around with a similar fermentation
procedure. (I think thats were a lot of the secret is)
I will post some more on it later.


Canadianbacon,

You asked me to post some pics of the skins I was doing, here
are 10 I did in less than an hour with the 2stone on Weber Genesis.
These freeze up real nice and and thaw out under the broiler like they
were hot off the grill. (hopgeek got me started on skins)

Also if you like a "Reuben Sandwich" this is about the best I have had.
The swiss cheese melted up real good on the corned beef and sour kraut.
When you cut it in 4 and fold the slice its also a "clean, easy to eat sandwich"

regards,
willard


 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 03:08:39 PM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #402 on: December 12, 2007, 03:24:49 PM »
I tried baking a deep dish pizza last night using a 2 inch pan.  Result: Not so good. There isn't enough clearance from the top stone to the top of the pan. Couldn't see the pizza while it baked, like I can do with the 1-1/2 inch pan. The heat was shielded by the high sides. The pizza needed longer to finish and the bottom was done to much for my taste.

I just ordered a 1 inch tin/steel pan, 9 inches. It will be interesting to see what difference 1/2 inch less height in the pan makes. I wanted to make a smaller pie, when the 12 inch pan is to big for the occasion.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #403 on: December 12, 2007, 07:07:45 PM »
Hi Willard,

wow, those are some nice looking pita breads there.  Looks more like the nicer naan that we eat from time to time.

I've been getting into Lebanese food lately, and I really love their garlic sauce, (called "toum" ) a mix of tons of garlic, and olive oil,
salt, and lemon juice, the stuff is just amazing with some good fresh pita or naan.

Is that a pizza dough ball you used Willard ?

anyway, those look really amazing !

« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 07:13:54 PM by canadianbacon »
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #404 on: December 12, 2007, 07:24:47 PM »
Hey Canadianbacon,


Boy that animated gif really rocks (literally)
Your pretty good with the graphics...
Well it's a pizza with olive oil and salt on it
and thats how it comes out. So I guess it could be a
naan or a pita bread or a flatbread...etc...etc
Yes that hummus is really good stuff. I guess I've eaten so
much pizza I'm pizza'ed out for a while. Actually I've got the dough
down pretty good now and its time to get "really serious" about the sauce.

getting cold up there yet?

willard

2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #405 on: December 12, 2007, 07:29:23 PM »
Thanks Willard :-)

Christmas is my favourite time of year, so I love doing the Christmas graphics  :)

Yup, cold up here, going down to -17 degrees tonight, the coldest we had was last week
at -19.  However, with January around the corner, I guess that's not too surprising, and it's not
too cold, you get used to it.  -30 is cold though, chilly on the pretzels  >:D

Anyway, those flat breads look great, thanks for the tip of using the olive oil and salt.... ok that is right
up my alley.

I know if I was having spaghetti for dinner, I could easily go through 2 of those with my dinner !  :chef:



getting cold up there yet?

willard


Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #406 on: December 12, 2007, 09:30:11 PM »
Many of you have asked if you can get a better deal
on the 2stone.... I'm trying my best..

Limited offer while supplies last. I have purchased a limited quantity of Cordierite stones at a very good price and I am passing the savings on to you. Cordierite is considered by many to be one of the best stones available for pizza making. (ask November) These are high quality stones that are virtually indestructible.  To offer you this low price I have omitted the handles. This in no way affects the performance of the 2stone; you have to wait till it cools down to move it. The price for the 2stone with Cordierite stone and no handles is $199.00 while supplies last.
If you combine this offer with the oven casing, you will save on the 2stone oven also.


www.2stonepg.com

regards.
willard
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 03:38:41 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #407 on: December 13, 2007, 10:42:35 PM »
With some gentle nudging from Pete-zza,
and two persuasive forum members, I have
finally caved inn (just kidding)
We are now offering 15-1/2" Fibrament versions of both the
2stone Pizza Grill and the 2stone Pizza Oven (for use with the Bayou burner)
We are also offering the Weber Genesis Grill Skirting for both sizes of the 2stone pg.

for more info go to www.2stonepg.com

regards,
willard

2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline Mahoney

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #408 on: December 14, 2007, 01:59:50 AM »
With some gentle nudging from Pete-zza,
and two persuasive forum members, I have
finally caved inn (just kidding)
We are now offering 15-1/2" Fibrament versions

I guess when you have a successful product that resonates with the dedicated, the suggestions keep coming solely because you are onto something  ;D  I couldn't be happier with my original 2stone on a Weber Genesis. I am a single guy and 12" pies are perfect for me.  That said, if I had a wish, it would be to complement my current arrangement with a Bayou version of the 2stone that could handle 18" pies (or better yet, if the weber genesis could handle 17” pies).  As always, congrats and much thanks Willard, as you came up with what I consider the perfect solution from my perspective for a pizza junkie trying to do this at home.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #409 on: December 14, 2007, 11:29:25 AM »
Mahoney,

My standard pie is 9-10 inches even though
I could do a 12 inch  one. I think what gets lost
in the translation is that when you are doing
pies at 2 min a clip, the size becomes less relevant.
That said, I think the !5-1/2" is great also.
(it costs more too)

"This is just my own unsophisticated theory"

The Neapolitan trend is slowly catching on, maybe because
it is more of a personal pie (so everyone can order there own)
The Neapolitan pie may have been one of the first real "fast foods"
When they were faced with a huge lunch crowd they cranked up the heat,
lowered the dome, made the pizza thinner and put less toppings on. Now they
were doing 60 sec pies and could meet the "lunch crush".
The New York Pie further expanded on production needs to be made larger, cut in 4 and sold by the slice.
The temp was dropped because it was more forgiving. you had already boosted production when you
sold by the slice.  (most trends are driven by economic needs, and the desire for a better bottom line)
As I said this is just an unsophisticated unproven theory that may have little or no validity!

So when you are making pizza at home many of these constraints don't apply.
What does apply is high heat. It definitely changes everything. Most notably the
texture and taste. Once you have done 900+ pies it's hard to go back.

regards,
willard
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 11:36:03 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com


Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #410 on: December 14, 2007, 12:59:13 PM »
Willard, congrats on the new models.  I was about to suggest making a bigger one, you must have read my mind  ;D   I may eventually upgrade.  For our family I like the smaller one since two small pies is perfect and I get to make two different kinds.  But I want to start having friends over to show off my amazing 2stone pies and when cooking for a lot of people the bigger size helps speed things up a bit.

Your origin theory sounds good to me, Willard.  What the lunch rush solution was in Rome was to make these super long pizzas which they then sell by the slice (pizza a taglio).  No hot oven is required, just a big oven -- same as the NY solution, except NY grew out of the Neapolitan style and so is a different kind of pie.

Scott


Offline BenLee

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #411 on: December 14, 2007, 01:26:40 PM »
MWTC,

Interesting, You are really getting a consistent char on your crust.
I've been playing around with a similar fermentation
procedure. (I think thats were a lot of the secret is)
I will post some more on it later.


Canadianbacon,

You asked me to post some pics of the skins I was doing, here
are 10 I did in less than an hour with the 2stone on Weber Genesis.
These freeze up real nice and and thaw out under the broiler like they
were hot off the grill. (hopgeek got me started on skins)

Also if you like a "Reuben Sandwich" this is about the best I have had.
The swiss cheese melted up real good on the corned beef and sour kraut.
When you cut it in 4 and fold the slice its also a "clean, easy to eat sandwich"

regards,
willard


 


That's an awesome looking reuben pie.  I made one a few months ago.  I added caraway seeds to the dough to make it like the rye bread I'm used to having reubens on.  On a side note, I was at Wegmann's (a NY/NJ supermarket) and they had Kobe Beef Pastrami and Kobe Corned Beef.  I go the pastrami and it was amazing.  I'm gonna go get the corned beef and make another pie.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #412 on: December 14, 2007, 01:48:14 PM »
Willard,

My best explanation is that the Neapolitans adapted just about everything—from their flour milling methods, dough preparation methods, fermentation methods (room temperature), and ovens—around the wheat grains/flours that were available to them to make pizza doughs. As has been noted on several occasions on the forum, the Italian flours (e.g., 00 flours) are flours with low-amylase activity (high falling numbers) and don’t lend themselves as well to cold fermentation as our higher protein flours with lower falling numbers. See, for example, Marco’s posts at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410.html#msg13410 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8702.html#msg8702.

The optimum use of 00 flours is with room-temperature fermentation and very high oven temperatures. Anyone who has tried using the 00 flours in a standard (unmodified) home oven application, even when using some oil in the dough (as suggested by Marco in one of the above links), and even when using modest hydration levels, will tell you how difficult it is to avoid hard, crispy or white crusts. If it were otherwise, why would one spend a lot of time and money building technically sophisticated high-temperature ovens, as several of our members have done, when cheap home ovens would do? I think the short bake times were natural effects of making the best use of the domestic flours that Neapolitans had to work with. The fact that the short bake times fit the “fast food” profile was/is is just a coincidence, in my opinion.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 05:50:38 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline snowdy

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #413 on: December 14, 2007, 05:44:41 PM »
can i fit a 15" on that 15 1/2? or does it need some wiggle room?

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #414 on: December 14, 2007, 06:25:24 PM »
Snowdy,

Well..........that depends on your peel skills.
I would say you are doing good with a 14"

I have started blowing a little air under the pizza,
and I find it almost floats off the peel......but it takes
some practice.


Ben Lee,

I knew I was missing something,
caraway seeds. The dough was
50% whole wheat Yes I need to go
looking for some real good corned beef.

regards,
willard

« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 06:35:49 PM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline bambino32

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #415 on: December 16, 2007, 04:08:40 PM »
Willard

Is the oven casing for the 15 1/2 in stones larger? Does it fit the same on the Bayou Classic?

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #416 on: December 16, 2007, 04:17:23 PM »
Bambino,

Yes it is slightly larger but made to fit the same SQ-14 burner
Most of the differences are on the interior of the casing to
accommodated the larger 15-1/2 2stone.
(the two casings are not interchangeable)

regards,
willard


2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #417 on: December 17, 2007, 01:21:44 AM »
I just lost my leoparding. The leoparding is now burning. What I changed is, I just started experimenting with fresh Mozzarella. The moisture of the cheese is keeping the center of the pizza moister, so its taking longer to finish. Looks like I need to lower the flame once I start baking.

Any advice Willard?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #418 on: December 17, 2007, 07:34:08 AM »
MWTC,

I slice fresh Mozz very thin and put it on paper towels to absorb some of the moisture.

Michael
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #419 on: December 17, 2007, 08:59:07 AM »
MWTC,

A couple of weeks ago I had the chance to observe Neapolitan pizza being made in a Neapolitan oven.(the kind of oven that a forum member here says is the only legitimate oven for Neapolitan pizza)
They were using Caputo "00" and the pie's were coming out of the oven in about 90 sec.
They did not have anywhere near the leoparding that you were getting, and they were putting thin slices of mozz on after it came out of the oven.
Leoparding is probably one of the more elusive elements of pizza making. The skins that I posted earlier on this page have no toppings on them except for olive oil and sea salt. The top 5 skins were 100% Caputo and the bottom 5 were 50/50 wholewheat and high gluten.(3 day cold proofing)
In my opinion it is the mixing and fermentation process that controls the leopparding
(once you have high heat) more than anything.
The heat also hits the back side of the crust first before it reaches the toppings.
I was hoping you were getting close to putting "the Jeannie  in the bottle"  I could be wrong but I think it is in your dough mixing and fermentation process.
One small note...if you are getting to the end of your propane tank everything changes.

regards,
willard
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 09:07:05 AM by 2stone »
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com


 

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