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[2stone]

This can get pretty hot......

[mmarston]

Willard, your invention is terrific.

It finally stopped raining. You can see the results of my first pies in the Neapolitan section here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5699.20.html

Michael

[2stone]

Michael,
Your pies look great, your "bottom vs. top"
is real easy to adjust. You will definitely
have no problem doing "00"

I promised MWTC I would post some pics
with the oven, so as soon as I'm done I will
post on your thread


MWTC,

I did three pies... 2 last night and one today. Between Marley (my dog) and I
we finished them all off. Boy I love the pepperoni when it gets charred... it really
brings out the flavor.
I didn't have a lot of time so I did a real "down and dirty dough batch" from the start
of mixing to finished pizza ready to bake took 1 hr. 20 min. I really like doing the overnight
proofing in the fridge, but in a pinch it works.

Here are the dough ingredients etc.
I've been doing it for a while so my hand fulls are not as sloppy
as it might seem! As for hydration, I have a DLX mixer and I add flower till it
starts to release from the bowl, that is usually a workable consistency for me.
(I'm not as patient as some with wet unmanageable dough)
I put the water and the yeast with a cup of flour inn the DLX first and let it run
for a couple of min. Than I add the balance of the flour and the sea salt and mix for 5-7 min.
Proofed at room temp.

Hope this helps,
willard

check out Michaels "00" pies on the Neo thread

[2stone]

MWTC,

Two more pies before and after.
The Bayou burner will put out 150 k BTU,
which is way too hot. So I kept it down to
around 800 and did the pies in 2 1/2 min.


willard

[mbusse]

Here are 2 shots from yesterdays trials.

First, a pic of the thermometer while sitting in the 2Stone for about 20 minutes. I would guess that to read about 800-900F?

[mbusse]

And a shot of the pie.

Cooked a little longer as I had a harder time achieving the charring, most likely due to 100% Caputo. Cooked about 4-5 minutes.
This was at 64% hydration. I really did not care for the pie. It was very tough, my jaw was sore after eating it all.
I am not sure what causes this toughness. Anyone?

I much prefer New York style dough on the 2Stone, it is simple and tastes delicious and produces a nice char and perfect crust texture.
I think I will leave Neapolitan to the pizza gods.

Mark

[Bill/SFNM]

First, a pic of the thermometer while sitting in the 2Stone for about 20 minutes. I would guess that to read about 800-900F?

Mark,

Are you trying to measure the air temp where you placed the thermometer? By placing it on the stone, I would guess a lot of heat is being conducted into the gadget and not giving an accurate reading of air temp. Just speculation, FWIW.

Bill/SFNM

[Bill/SFNM]

Cooked a little longer as I had a harder time achieving the charring, most likely due to 100% Caputo. Cooked about 4-5 minutes.
This was at 64% hydration. I really did not care for the pie. It was very tough, my jaw was sore after eating it all.
I am not sure what causes this toughness. Anyone?

Mark,

Highly-hydrated Caputo doughs are meant to be cooked very briefly at high temps. If it took 4-5 minutes, then it is way overcooked or, more probably, your oven isn't hot enough to cook the crust in about 60 seconds.

Bill/SFNM

[mbusse]

Bill,

Thanks for the reply.

The thermometer had been sitting on the stone for the preheat. At the time I took the pic, I also took a reading on the surface temp of the stone using
an IR themometer, it was reading 625F at the front, and 725F at the rear.

I really wish there was an accurate way to check air temp. I will try another today at about 90 seconds. The pizza was done in 90 as the cheese was melted, I just kept looking for charring as I witnessed with the NY style, and sounds like I left in too long.

Mark

[Bill/SFNM]

I really wish there was an accurate way to check air temp. I will try another today at about 90 seconds. The pizza was done in 90 as the cheese was melted, I just kept looking for charring as I witnessed with the NY style, and sounds like I left in too long.

I think visual cues such as charring are the least important indicator. I've made dreadful pies with perfect leoparding/charring and truly delicious ones with almost none. Getting everything perfectly cooked at the same time is a difficult balancing act. I've been at it for many years and still struggle. For me as I tweak all of the different parameters, it has been a two-step forward, one-step back kind of process. However, even the failures have been a good learning experience.

Keep up the great work!

Bill/SFNM

 

[2stone]

Mark,

I think there is a learning curve to Caputo, and someone
who has more understanding may be able to explain. There is a
natural conversion to sugar in the proofing process that occurs.
It is the caramelizing of the sugar that gives the color to the crust.
I used to add sugar to my batch to achieve this, but have been learning
how to achieve it with correct proofing.

Bill,

I am glad you stress the work in progress aspect. There are so many variables
that it is sometimes hard to keep track of all of them. You have one big advantage
I think anyway with your oven and that is that wind wreaks havoc on a grill and litterally
changes the whole equation when you are using a grill and a 2stone. I'm guessing wind doesn't
really factor inn too much for your setup.

regards'

willard

[scottfsmith]

Cooked a little longer as I had a harder time achieving the charring, most likely due to 100% Caputo. Cooked about 4-5 minutes.
This was at 64% hydration. I really did not care for the pie. It was very tough, my jaw was sore after eating it all.
I am not sure what causes this toughness. Anyone?

To add to Bill's comments, before I was getting up in the neighborhood of 1000F I had the same kind of results with the Caputo - incredibly tough.  The pies also had none of the floppiness Neapolitan pies are supposed to have (the need to fold a slice if you want to get it in your mouth with your hands only).  All I had to do is up the temp and shorten the times to get the right result.  I can't tell if your temp is right or not but you definitely need shorter cook time -- 2 minutes or less.

Scott

[Pete-zza]

Cooked a little longer as I had a harder time achieving the charring, most likely due to 100% Caputo. Cooked about 4-5 minutes.
This was at 64% hydration. I really did not care for the pie. It was very tough, my jaw was sore after eating it all.
I am not sure what causes this toughness. Anyone?

Mark,

Often you will get the toughness you mentioned with a Caputo dough when you use too high a hydration (over 60%) and too long a bake time at too low a bake temperature. The crispy, tough characteristic usually results because the pizza maker bakes the pizza too long, trying to get decent crust coloration, especially at the top, which is what everyone sees. As Bill and others have pointed out, you need to have really high bake temperatures to avoid that result. In my case, using a standard home oven, I found that I had to use a hydration of around 60% (or lower) and a thicker dough skin than is used for the classic Neapolitan style. Sometimes I had to add oil to the dough, although for some reason that wasn't necessary when I was using a natural preferment. I also learned not to agitate over the fact that my crusts were on the light side from a crust coloration standpoint. If I waited for the perfect crust color, that meant that I waited too long and the risk of getting a tough crust increased materially.

If Willard's setup can't achieve the very high temperatures that are conducive to getting the best results out of a Caputo dough, it may become necessary to make changes along the lines mentioned above. Even if Willard's setup doesn't take one all the way to the very high bake temperatures, the results should still be better than what can be achieved using a standard home oven. Hopefully Willard and others will find ways of getting the high temperatures that the Caputo flour demands. But I wouldn't give up too easily on the Caputo flour. That flour can produce exceptionally tasty pizzas, especially if one uses a natural preferment.

Peter

[FVG]

Round 2 with the 2 Stone - This time I lined the sides of the grill with aluminum foil and tried 2 different flours - KA Bread and KA Sir Lancelot. Much better browning and charring with the Sir Lancelot and better overall chewiness to go along with the charring. Cooking time for both was around 3 minutes and I plan on purchasing an IR thermometer this week so I can check temps. My original reason for purchasing the @Stone was so I could make pizza during the hot summer months but this is quickly becoming what I will use year round.

Pizza 1 is with the KA bread flour, pizza 2 (with the ham) is with the Sir Lancelot.

[canadianbacon]

Hi there FVG,

wow, that pizza really looks amazing.  Thanks for posting your images.

[mbusse]

All,

Thanks for the feedback. I just finished a few more pies.
This time I shortened the Caputo bake to 2 minutes. This time the crust was much softer than before.
Although, I still did not care for this pie. I have eaten at Bianco's recently, and keep using it as a benchmark
when making this type of pizza.

I also tried another pie using the lehman NY Style again. I must say, I really love this pie on the 2Stone, it is
just fabulous. The char, slight crisp on the outside, and very tender inside, it just works really well for me. Bake time 3 minutes. (30 seconds too long)

I preheated the grill and did the Caputo first, then the NY Style. In retrospect, I should have done them the other way around
as I noticed I had much better heat for the NY Style, which I really did not need.

For the Caputo, I had a stone surface temp of about 650F, and what looked like 800F air temp.
For the NY Stlye, I had a stone surface temp of 760F, and what looked like about 900F air temp.

The Caputo which is the first pic, was pretty light and no charring on the bottom.
The NY Style which is the second and third pic was about 20-30 seconds overdone.

The taste again of the NY Style is really flavorful at this temp as compared to the several dozen in my home oven using the same recipe.
Having eaten at Bianco's and comparing it to the NY Style I am doing now at the high heat, if I had to choose between the two, I would choose
the NY Style, I think it is similar to Bianco's, yet more flavorful. It could be that I am just partial to this style, I dunno. I am really going for flavor
first though, then the airy, cotton like cornicone.

Mark

[mbusse]

NY Style

KASL Flour (100%): Water (64%): IDY (0.17%): Salt (2%): Oil (2%): Total (168.17%):

206.34 g  |  7.28 oz | 0.45 lbs 132.06 g  |  4.66 oz | 0.29 lbs 0.35 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp 4.13 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp 4.13 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp 347 g | 12.24 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = N/A

3-4 day Refrigerated Fermentation

Ezzo Pepperoni
Belgioioso Fresh Mozzarella
3 minute bake @900F (30 Seconds too much)
Sauce was 1 can Cento Italian Tomatoes + 1 can Escalon 6n1, put in blender and puree for a few minutes, add 3 tsp. Penzey's
Top with a sprinkling of Parmigiano Reggiano

[mbusse]

NY Style - Bottom

[2stone]

WOW,

You guys are just upping the ante on me.
I'm amazed at the results you are getting.
FVG the charring looks great on the last one.
I just looked at a bunch of Bianco pies and noticed he
doesn't shy away from charring them.
Are you noticing a big difference with the tinfoil?

Mark, the up skirt is beautiful. You seem to be finding
a groove with the New York style. Charring the pepperoni
really brings out the full flavor doesn't it.
Could you post a link to the exact recipe of the New York
pie. What type of flour are you using?

willard

[FVG]

The foil did make a difference - cook time a couple of weeks ago without the foil was around 4 1/2 minutes, now down to 3 with the foil. I also got more even charring through out the crust with the to and bottom of the pizza done at the same time. Both me and my wife grew up in Brooklyn, NY and when we took our first bites today we both agreed this was the closest thing to NY style pizza we have had since leaving there.

Once I get the IR thermometer I will check the temps with and without the foil.

This is my dough recipe:

Flour   36.00   oz
Water   23.00   oz
Salt   3.00   tsp
Yeast   1.00   tsp
Oil   0.36   oz