Author Topic: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven  (Read 181634 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #320 on: November 14, 2007, 09:09:52 PM »
Is this the right flour?

Yes, williard, that is the flour I use

Bill/SFNM


Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #321 on: November 14, 2007, 10:35:06 PM »
Watch what you do with that parchment paper folks. It's not supposed to be used above 420 f.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #322 on: November 14, 2007, 11:20:47 PM »
Hi BolaBola, wow, that is a great looking pizza.  I love the dough just like that.  I'm impressed.
Perfectly done I might add.

Willard, I'll post lots of pix with my new toy,,, it I had ordered it in December, it would
have gone under the Christmas tree !

hmm..... turkey pizza for Christmas dinner ? ... sounds tempting LOL  >:D
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline bolabola

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #323 on: November 15, 2007, 09:27:07 PM »
Thank you so much Bill for posting my pics..
and thanks Willard for the PM..
don't worry..the top fits just fine and the upper stone was pulled out by accident on that one pic..

I used parchment paper on my first 2 tries Canadianbacon because my dough is so wet( 63%) and it made it easier to get my pizza off of the peel but since then I've been useing the screen which came with the 2stone and on my last try I used alittle cornmeal to slide my pizza in without the screen..
it takes some practice sliding in your pizza because of the heat and small space in between the 2stone so if your dough sticks to the peel youre in trouble...
I made 5 pizzas inarow last week and it's important to close the lid to your weber after each pie to regain some heat..

man, I really like that bayou oven housing for the 2stone..I need to get me one of those..

I'm a big mushroom fan...being hunting for 40 years now..there's nothing like a fresh morel pizza.. :chef:



 
Pizza Rocks

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #324 on: November 15, 2007, 11:22:53 PM »
Bolabola brings up one of the more challenging
aspects of the 2stone. "Loading the pizza onto a small target"

For a long time when I was doing my pies in more traditional woodfired
brick ovens, I didn't even try to unload off a peel onto the hearth. I figured
why bother when it was so foolproof to just use a screen. Also when I was R&Ding the
2stone I used a screen. Finally I figured I just had to try it no matter what happened.
I only had an aluminum peel, so I would load it up with corn meal and managed to get it off
onto the stone but everyone knows how bad cornmeal burns!!
So I started reading different posts here and learned that a wooden peel worked best for
unloading pies. I think Pete-zza mentioned that he would give the peel a little hit with sandpaper.
Pretty soon I started getting the hang of it. When you lightly sand the wooden peel it brings up the
wood grain, then when you put a little flour on it and rub it inn it kind of helps hold a very thin layer
of flour on the peel. When you plant the pie on it it helps to jiggle it around and make sure it is loose.

I know this is all very elementary for most of you....but I just learned this not too long ago.

Just recently I added a new tool to my arsenal which really works well when handling high hydration
dough and sprinkling the peel. Maybe some of you have it and I notice Bill SFNM used a large shaker.
At any rate I can really recommend this one by OXO. It has both a top and bottom lid and you can really dispence the flour evenly and thin.

willard
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #325 on: November 16, 2007, 08:52:19 AM »
Here's a gadget that's been around for years. Simply dip the end of the duster in the flour and squeeze the handle to load it with flour then gently squeeze them again to sprinkle flour across your desired surface. Spring action keeps flour from falling out all at once. You can just leave in the flour container.
I got mine at Williams Sonoma.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:55:05 AM by mmarston »
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #326 on: November 16, 2007, 09:56:03 AM »
Went looking for that duster on the
WS site and somehow couldn't find it.

But it is available here along with
lots of others: http://www.fantes.com/sifters_shakers.htm
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #327 on: November 16, 2007, 09:59:39 AM »
Madonna made this popular a few years ago, if you ever watched one of her shows you know
what I'm talking about  :P

Now I know where she got the 2 pieces for her "costume"  :-D

Being a baker, I still like Willard's idea, if you buy a good quality one, it dispenses flour very evenly,
and not too heavily.  However that device is interesting.

Here's a gadget that's been around for years.
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #328 on: November 16, 2007, 11:08:28 AM »
I bought my duster years ago before WS got quite so upscale. it's probably too mundane for them now.
I'm firing up my Bayou blaster tonight for the first bake! It's quite cold and windy so I have moved into the garage as well.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #329 on: November 16, 2007, 01:08:10 PM »
I decided to do a Bayou test before dinner to be sure everything worked properly.

I used the DiFara clone recipe I posted a while back.

Flour 100%  75% 00/25% KASL
Water 62%
IDY .4%
Salt 2%

tf .08 for both

Proof yeast in water for 10 minutes, add to other ingredients and mix in KA for 9 minutes. Room temp rise for 2 hours, punch down, fold, divide into balls and then into the fridge for 1 day. Rise on counter for 2 hours and bake.

The oven heated up in 15 min with a stone temp of 850. The pie cooked in about 2 min.
Next time I'll turn down the flame a bit after the stone gets hot to avoid charing the top quite so much.
I suspect I'll eventually end up getting the temperature monitoring equipment that Mark posted.
This was the best pizza I have made to date! Thank you Willard for a great solution to the high temperature problem. For the moment my lust for a wood fired oven has cooled. I'll be trying a straight 00 next.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #330 on: November 16, 2007, 01:56:48 PM »
Michael,

When I was trying to reverse engineer Dom DeMarco's DiFara's dough and pizza, I concluded that it was possible to improve upon his dough by simply giving it a longer fermentation, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator. With your latest pizza, you have proven the point. Now, you not only have what I believe is a comparable dough formulation but also the temperature to go along with it. Maybe when Willard comes up with a new model that can make a 16"-17" pizza, and use the same high-quality ingredients as Domenic uses, then you would have a pizza that would be even closer to his but possibly better. I might add that Domenic was well aware of the fact that a longer fermentation was better (I recall discussing this point with him), and I believe that at one time he did use a longer fermentation time, but when no one complained when he went to a 2-3 hour fermentation, he saw no need to go back to a longer fermentation.

Peter


Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #331 on: November 16, 2007, 03:08:31 PM »
mmarston,

Tell us about the outer crust characteristics. Is the outer rim crisp and is the bottom tough?  My experience has shown toughness is the problem with lower tempature baking, (home oven) directly on a stone. I'm hoping the 2stone is the solution to this problem.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #332 on: November 16, 2007, 04:00:18 PM »
MWTC,

The rim was crunchy with a soft light interior the bottom was foldable. Very close to a Neapolitan pie.
Previously I was baking mainly Lehman style pies in my home oven at 500-550 using a preforated disk in the top for 6-7 min and finishing on a stone in the bottom for 3 min . These pies were good but somewhat tougher.
I gave up on the Caputo 00 because it was so chewy but now I'm ready to try a 100% 00 pie.

Peter,

For the moment the DiFara clone is my favorite. This is the pie I was hoping to make when I began a few years ago but a home oven just won't do it.
Thanks again for all your help.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #333 on: November 16, 2007, 04:43:53 PM »
The rim was crunchy with a soft light interior the bottom was foldable. Very close to a Neapolitan pie.
Previously I was baking mainly Lehman style pies in my home oven at 500-550 using a preforated disk in the top for 6-7 min and finishing on a stone in the bottom for 3 min . These pies were good but somewhat tougher.
I gave up on the Caputo 00 because it was so chewy but now I'm ready to try a 100% 00 pie.

It sounds like your experience is the same as mine.

When you say the bottom was foldable, does that mean it was less tough than the home oven version?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #334 on: November 16, 2007, 05:56:58 PM »
The bottom of the high temp pies was much softer than my home oven versions. Those pies (16 inches) could be folded but folding was not necessary.
The Bayou pies are 12 inches and do not require folding at this size but you could fold if you like. A larger pie of this type would probably require folding or the use of a knife and fork for the first few bites.
I've never made the DiFara recipe in my home oven but because it has 75% Caputo 00 flour. I can't imagine that it would not be rather chewy baked at 500 f.

Michael
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 05:58:58 PM by mmarston »
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #335 on: November 16, 2007, 09:03:38 PM »
Michael,

You are raising the bar on us!
I've got to give you credit ....you nailed
it on your first try.
I've got 50 lb of "00" and 50 lb of high gluten.
I'm leaning towards a blend for cost reasons.

Peter, have you done any tests with a 50/50 blend.
Also I read somewhere on the forum about using 10% whole
wheat for better texture, or is that mixing it up too much.

I see you did this once
As part of my efforts to reverse engineer the DiFara pizza, I decided recently to try to engineer a dough similar to the DiFara dough.  I have a pretty good understanding of the various ingredients of the basic DiFara pizza, but few details on the dough itself, apart from the fact that the dough is a combination of "00" flour (the Delverde brand) and a high-gluten flour.

For my version of the dough, I decided to try a 50/50 (by weight) combination of "00" flour (Delverde brand) and KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. I also decided that I wanted a 14-inch pizza with a thin crust.   I don't know the percentage hydration (the amount of water) used by DiFara's for its dough, so I decided more or less arbitrarily to use 60%. What follows is more an exercise in how to engineer a dough from the ground up than anything else.  But I believe the exercise is constructive since it allows one to pretty much engineer a dough using any number and types of flours and any desired hydration percentage.



willard

« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:20:17 PM by 2stone »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #336 on: November 16, 2007, 09:22:37 PM »
Peter, have you done any tests with a 50/50 blend.

Willard,

I have not tried a 50/50 mix. I had heard some time ago that Domenic used a 50/50 blend but he later said it was 75/25 (based on volumes). The closest I came to 50/50 was 60% Caputo and 40% high-gluten. The crust was a bit chewier than the other combinations, which was to be expected because of the higher amount of the high-gluten flour, but the finished crust was still tasty. That was in my home oven (with the "mini oven"). I think there is a pretty wide range of possible combinations that will be satisfying.

Peter

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #337 on: November 16, 2007, 09:25:57 PM »
Thanks Willard,

The dinner pizzas were great and my wife didn't even mind my half of the garage being turned into a pizza kitchen.

Michael
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #338 on: November 16, 2007, 09:39:25 PM »
Michael.

It's kind of nice in the garage isn't it....

What is really neat is that when it starts
getting real cold you will notice what a good
heater the 2stone is!! (could be important for canadianbacon)

willard
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:45:22 PM by 2stone »
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Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #339 on: November 16, 2007, 11:21:56 PM »
Willard,

I am degassing the Oven and Grill right now. Should the flame be directly burning on the baffle? I am assuming that it should because I had the flame under it, not directly touching it, and it was only at 300 degrees after 15 minutes. I am measuring the plate where the bottom stone rests. I have the BonJour culinary laser thermometer.
 
http://www.bonjourproducts.com/53556.html

Please advise on the flame height when I am preheating the stone for actual baking at baking temperatures.

MWTC  :chef:

« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 11:24:12 PM by MWTC »