Author Topic: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven  (Read 200104 times)

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Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #325 on: November 16, 2007, 08:52:19 AM »
Here's a gadget that's been around for years. Simply dip the end of the duster in the flour and squeeze the handle to load it with flour then gently squeeze them again to sprinkle flour across your desired surface. Spring action keeps flour from falling out all at once. You can just leave in the flour container.
I got mine at Williams Sonoma.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:55:05 AM by mmarston »
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry


Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #326 on: November 16, 2007, 09:56:03 AM »
Went looking for that duster on the
WS site and somehow couldn't find it.

But it is available here along with
lots of others: http://www.fantes.com/sifters_shakers.htm

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #327 on: November 16, 2007, 09:59:39 AM »
Madonna made this popular a few years ago, if you ever watched one of her shows you know
what I'm talking about  :P

Now I know where she got the 2 pieces for her "costume"  :-D

Being a baker, I still like Willard's idea, if you buy a good quality one, it dispenses flour very evenly,
and not too heavily.  However that device is interesting.

Here's a gadget that's been around for years.
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #328 on: November 16, 2007, 11:08:28 AM »
I bought my duster years ago before WS got quite so upscale. it's probably too mundane for them now.
I'm firing up my Bayou blaster tonight for the first bake! It's quite cold and windy so I have moved into the garage as well.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #329 on: November 16, 2007, 01:08:10 PM »
I decided to do a Bayou test before dinner to be sure everything worked properly.

I used the DiFara clone recipe I posted a while back.

Flour 100%  75% 00/25% KASL
Water 62%
IDY .4%
Salt 2%

tf .08 for both

Proof yeast in water for 10 minutes, add to other ingredients and mix in KA for 9 minutes. Room temp rise for 2 hours, punch down, fold, divide into balls and then into the fridge for 1 day. Rise on counter for 2 hours and bake.

The oven heated up in 15 min with a stone temp of 850. The pie cooked in about 2 min.
Next time I'll turn down the flame a bit after the stone gets hot to avoid charing the top quite so much.
I suspect I'll eventually end up getting the temperature monitoring equipment that Mark posted.
This was the best pizza I have made to date! Thank you Willard for a great solution to the high temperature problem. For the moment my lust for a wood fired oven has cooled. I'll be trying a straight 00 next.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #330 on: November 16, 2007, 01:56:48 PM »
Michael,

When I was trying to reverse engineer Dom DeMarco's DiFara's dough and pizza, I concluded that it was possible to improve upon his dough by simply giving it a longer fermentation, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator. With your latest pizza, you have proven the point. Now, you not only have what I believe is a comparable dough formulation but also the temperature to go along with it. Maybe when Willard comes up with a new model that can make a 16"-17" pizza, and use the same high-quality ingredients as Domenic uses, then you would have a pizza that would be even closer to his but possibly better. I might add that Domenic was well aware of the fact that a longer fermentation was better (I recall discussing this point with him), and I believe that at one time he did use a longer fermentation time, but when no one complained when he went to a 2-3 hour fermentation, he saw no need to go back to a longer fermentation.

Peter


Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #331 on: November 16, 2007, 03:08:31 PM »
mmarston,

Tell us about the outer crust characteristics. Is the outer rim crisp and is the bottom tough?  My experience has shown toughness is the problem with lower tempature baking, (home oven) directly on a stone. I'm hoping the 2stone is the solution to this problem.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #332 on: November 16, 2007, 04:00:18 PM »
MWTC,

The rim was crunchy with a soft light interior the bottom was foldable. Very close to a Neapolitan pie.
Previously I was baking mainly Lehman style pies in my home oven at 500-550 using a preforated disk in the top for 6-7 min and finishing on a stone in the bottom for 3 min . These pies were good but somewhat tougher.
I gave up on the Caputo 00 because it was so chewy but now I'm ready to try a 100% 00 pie.

Peter,

For the moment the DiFara clone is my favorite. This is the pie I was hoping to make when I began a few years ago but a home oven just won't do it.
Thanks again for all your help.
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #333 on: November 16, 2007, 04:43:53 PM »
The rim was crunchy with a soft light interior the bottom was foldable. Very close to a Neapolitan pie.
Previously I was baking mainly Lehman style pies in my home oven at 500-550 using a preforated disk in the top for 6-7 min and finishing on a stone in the bottom for 3 min . These pies were good but somewhat tougher.
I gave up on the Caputo 00 because it was so chewy but now I'm ready to try a 100% 00 pie.

It sounds like your experience is the same as mine.

When you say the bottom was foldable, does that mean it was less tough than the home oven version?

MWTC  :chef:


Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #334 on: November 16, 2007, 05:56:58 PM »
The bottom of the high temp pies was much softer than my home oven versions. Those pies (16 inches) could be folded but folding was not necessary.
The Bayou pies are 12 inches and do not require folding at this size but you could fold if you like. A larger pie of this type would probably require folding or the use of a knife and fork for the first few bites.
I've never made the DiFara recipe in my home oven but because it has 75% Caputo 00 flour. I can't imagine that it would not be rather chewy baked at 500 f.

Michael
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 05:58:58 PM by mmarston »
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #335 on: November 16, 2007, 09:03:38 PM »
Michael,

You are raising the bar on us!
I've got to give you credit ....you nailed
it on your first try.
I've got 50 lb of "00" and 50 lb of high gluten.
I'm leaning towards a blend for cost reasons.

Peter, have you done any tests with a 50/50 blend.
Also I read somewhere on the forum about using 10% whole
wheat for better texture, or is that mixing it up too much.

I see you did this once
As part of my efforts to reverse engineer the DiFara pizza, I decided recently to try to engineer a dough similar to the DiFara dough.  I have a pretty good understanding of the various ingredients of the basic DiFara pizza, but few details on the dough itself, apart from the fact that the dough is a combination of "00" flour (the Delverde brand) and a high-gluten flour.

For my version of the dough, I decided to try a 50/50 (by weight) combination of "00" flour (Delverde brand) and KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. I also decided that I wanted a 14-inch pizza with a thin crust.   I don't know the percentage hydration (the amount of water) used by DiFara's for its dough, so I decided more or less arbitrarily to use 60%. What follows is more an exercise in how to engineer a dough from the ground up than anything else.  But I believe the exercise is constructive since it allows one to pretty much engineer a dough using any number and types of flours and any desired hydration percentage.



willard

« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:20:17 PM by 2stone »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #336 on: November 16, 2007, 09:22:37 PM »
Peter, have you done any tests with a 50/50 blend.

Willard,

I have not tried a 50/50 mix. I had heard some time ago that Domenic used a 50/50 blend but he later said it was 75/25 (based on volumes). The closest I came to 50/50 was 60% Caputo and 40% high-gluten. The crust was a bit chewier than the other combinations, which was to be expected because of the higher amount of the high-gluten flour, but the finished crust was still tasty. That was in my home oven (with the "mini oven"). I think there is a pretty wide range of possible combinations that will be satisfying.

Peter

Offline mmarston

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #337 on: November 16, 2007, 09:25:57 PM »
Thanks Willard,

The dinner pizzas were great and my wife didn't even mind my half of the garage being turned into a pizza kitchen.

Michael
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #338 on: November 16, 2007, 09:39:25 PM »
Michael.

It's kind of nice in the garage isn't it....

What is really neat is that when it starts
getting real cold you will notice what a good
heater the 2stone is!! (could be important for canadianbacon)

willard
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:45:22 PM by 2stone »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #339 on: November 16, 2007, 11:21:56 PM »
Willard,

I am degassing the Oven and Grill right now. Should the flame be directly burning on the baffle? I am assuming that it should because I had the flame under it, not directly touching it, and it was only at 300 degrees after 15 minutes. I am measuring the plate where the bottom stone rests. I have the BonJour culinary laser thermometer.
 
http://www.bonjourproducts.com/53556.html

Please advise on the flame height when I am preheating the stone for actual baking at baking temperatures.

MWTC  :chef:

« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 11:24:12 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #340 on: November 17, 2007, 12:24:49 AM »
Its been 1-1/2 hour and the plate is a consistant 700 degrees. I will do it for a total of 2 hours and shut it down till you advise. Hope that's hot enough.

MWTC

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #341 on: November 17, 2007, 09:16:21 AM »
MWTC,

I think you should be fine, with the degassing.

The flame on the bayou just has to be adjusted so
it is burning clean, I think Mark proved that you can
turn it on full blast if you want to, (and get away with it!!)
I'm going to be out today, so if you want to reach me
I have my Blackberry on and if you email me I should be able
to get back to you. (my email is listed in my profile)
Like they say "practice makes perfect"

have a great weekend,
willard


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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #342 on: November 17, 2007, 10:26:17 AM »
I see you did this once
As part of my efforts to reverse engineer the DiFara pizza, I decided recently to try to engineer a dough similar to the DiFara dough.  I have a pretty good understanding of the various ingredients of the basic DiFara pizza, but few details on the dough itself, apart from the fact that the dough is a combination of "00" flour (the Delverde brand) and a high-gluten flour.

For my version of the dough, I decided to try a 50/50 (by weight) combination of "00" flour (Delverde brand) and KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour...

Willard,

Thank you for reminding me of the tests I did with a 50/50 blend of 00 flour and high-gluten flour. What you quoted was from a post that I entered in August 2004, which is just far enough back to test the limits of my recall capabilities (LOL). At the time, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour existed but was not yet widely distributed in the U.S. at the retail level as it is now. I believe that at the time only Bill of our forum members was actually using it and I was myself just in the process of trying to find it through early discussions that I had with Charlie Restivo at Naples 45 in NYC (where I first saw bags of the Caputo flour) and Fred Mortati, of Orlando Foods, the importer of the Caputo 00 flours.

The other 00 flours that were commonly available at the time were the Bel Aria and Delverde 00 flours, and the Delverde, which I was able to find from only a single online source (that shut down shortly after) was hard to come by. It would have been logical for me to try a 50/50 mix using the Delverde flour since I was trying to reverse engineer the DeMarco DiFara dough and I had been told by a source I considered to be reliable that Domenic was using a 50/50 blend, and I was either told or had read somewhere that Domenic was using the Delverde 00 flour. It was hard to find data on the Delverde flour (the labeling information on the packaging for the flour was incomplete and misleading), but I believed its protein content to be between that of the Bel Aria and the Caputo 00 Pizzeria 00 flours. It's possible that Domenic changed the flour blend when he went to the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. I don't know what he is now using. I read somewhere that he switched to the Colavito brand of 00 flour. (However, I can see how someone might get the Caputo and Colavito names mixed up.) When I spoke with Domenic, I believe he was then using the Caputo 00 flour and a 75/25 flour mix, by volume. No doubt, what Domenic told me moved me away from the 50/50 blend. I don't think the precise blend matters all that much. Using a longer fermentation is the key to getting improved results.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 10:28:31 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline golfsferr

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #343 on: November 17, 2007, 02:28:23 PM »
Willard
I too love pizza and have experimented a lot to get a light crispy (not thin) pizza dough. I felt that I would have to have a brick style oven to achieve that and finding your Invention has intrigued me. At one point in this forum you stated that you would be selling them at some point. I must have missed the one that stated that you have started to sell them and how to get one. I would be interested in buying one if that is possible. I think you have a commercial hit on you hands. If you do go commercial and build them in volumes I'm sure the price would go down but for now if you only have prototypes I'm still interested in talking to you about buying one. I really stumbled on to a great site here and have only just begun to learn from all here. I'm looking forward to digging deeper. Thanks. Steve

Offline MWTC

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #344 on: November 17, 2007, 02:34:36 PM »
Willard,

Ok. The question that I need answered is, is it ok for the flame to reach and touch the plate that holds the large stone? It appears that when I turn it up, the flame to high, it does touch the plate, even though I am using the 6 inch baffle.

I do hear the jet sound that you spoke of when I do turn it up. So you are saying to turn it down just to the point where the jet sound is eliminated?

Please advise.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #345 on: November 17, 2007, 02:54:06 PM »
MWTC,

I think you are taking a post I made about
being carefull with the heat too literal.
By all means turn up the heat the flames should
hit the pan and you will see a few flames licking up
the back. I appreciate the fact that you are being
carfull, but don't worry "turn up the heat!!"
(the bayou is a noisy, jet engine sounding burner)


Steve,

I am in production and you can order here
http://www.2stonepg.com/
I can recommend the oven if you want 1000+

regards,
willard

Offline golfsferr

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #346 on: November 17, 2007, 03:07:35 PM »
Steve,

I am in production and you can order here
I can recommend the oven if you want 1000+

regards,
willard

Willard
Thanks for the quick reply and I'm impressed with your site. The The Bayou Classic Burner, it looks like the same thing I already have for my Turkey Fryer. Is that about right? The 1000+ that you mentioned, is that the temp. you are talking about? Thanks again. Steve

PS. How far are you away from the Detroit area?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 03:21:18 PM by golfsferr »

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #347 on: November 17, 2007, 03:17:29 PM »
Hi Steve,

Yes thats right....it is sold as a kit (turkey fryer) or stand alone SQ-14
16x16 frame. Yes the 1000+ is one thousand degrees F. If you go back a few
pages on this thread Scott and Mark both have some impressive temp reading
setups.

willard

Offline golfsferr

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #348 on: November 17, 2007, 03:24:05 PM »
Willard

We live in Troy, Michigan. How far way are you?
Thanks.
Steve

Offline 2stone

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Re: Reverse engineered coal fired brick oven
« Reply #349 on: November 17, 2007, 03:35:10 PM »
Steve,

You are about 3 1/2 hrs away by Detroit I think.


willard

« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 03:49:07 PM by 2stone »


 

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