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[giotto]

Good stuff, as always, Pete-zza. The Old Master's techniques are always appreciated. Your point regarding timing around instant type of yeasts reminds me of the suttle point regarding daylight savings time in the movie, National Treasure.

Your fresh yeast & salt are 100% spot on... 6 oz salt, 2 oz fresh yeast.  Just a slight deviation to water, and a few extra notes:

- 30 lbs quality AP with higher end of protein level (KA for example may be good with 11.7%)
- 20 lbs water (4 lbs are icy water. I believe cold winters, underground storage or maybe even cool river waters are accounted for. And in the SF area, they want to extend fermentation for additional acids from bacterial fermentation).
- Mix time is 12 minutes. They can toss the dough and rarely get a rip (but it does happen). So windowpane test should be respectable.
- I need to verify the fermentation time; I might have changed that to meet my standards.  But I'm pretty sure they get at least 24hrs with the cooler temps.  The taste is not sour; just really good.

Prepartion for oven is interesting in Mtn View (owner lived around corner from this location):

- The dough is quickly doused with flour, which has a touch of high quality stone ground corn meal.
- Their is no evidence of bubbles at this stage.
- It is then stretched on a surface, with a twist on Naples style.  They quickly turn and pull it on a surface. But they leave a little of the dough hang off their surface as they turn it.  It forms a perfect circle every time, which can be very dependent on flour's strength.
- They then put it in a box to wait its turn for the next step (20 minutes+).
- They then give it a quick flip in the air for final formation. 
- I have not seen them put the pizza near the flames, which are on the left side.  They start in the middle for 30 or so seconds, then give it a quick check, turn and move it to the right side near the wall. Another check, and turn every so often, and in 3 1/2 minutes or so it's out.  They turn the gas on early AM, and it is just under 800F when I have gotten there in the noon.

The result is not feasible in my oven.  So I applaud the intererest in the 2stone:

- It has great color, some places with char darker than others; but overall color tends to be darker than most electric oven pizzas due to malted barley and high heat.
- It's soft, easy to fold with no cracking; but its cornicione is slightly crisp to the touch, and the density of the slim (but certainly not Roman thin) can defy one's interest in the Ciabatta airy holes.  It's dense; but not heavy with respectable tug.
- Small crisp cornicione
- Usual NY thin layer of sauce and Grande Mozz, and my favorite "Dime" size pepperonis from American Sausage company, that cup up and leave that little bit of oil in the center of each pepperoni. 

I know that Frankie believes that Amici's Woodstone is leagues above the knowledge of Alan Scott, who he respects deeply and who's knowledge helped build his own outdoor oven.  He too has worked with this formula, and uses a biga the day before to come closer to the pull.

I'll include a better picture with a good camera later.  Muchos Gracias!

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

When you mentioned the deviation in water, I discovered that I made a mistake in my last post. In substituting IDY for cake yeast, technically one should increase the hydration by an amount to compensate for the difference in weights of the cake yeast and the IDY--which is the water contained in the cake yeast. I did this in my own personal printout of the IDY version but forgot to do it in the version I posted. I have gone back to my last post and corrected the hydration for the IDY version from 65% to 65.29%. 

I also forgot the potential effects on the finished dough temperature and fermentation time of the ice cold water. If the room where the dough is held to ferment is also on the cool side, then the useful life will, of course, be extended. Once the dough balls start to be used, then the remaining dough balls should last at least 3-4 hours longer.

A point to keep in mind about the Caputo flour is that it is milled from national grains that are subject to less starch damage than our domestic grains. As you know, it is primarily the damaged starch that the enzymes work on to extract the natural sugars. Damaged starch also absorbs about three times the water as nondamaged starch. It may be possible to get a bit more sugar out of the Caputo flour by using diastatic malt, but you perhaps aren't going to get a great deal more sugar out of the flour. You may recall in our time on the A16 thread how we played around with using diastatic malt and trying to increase the damaged starch in the flour (as by running it through a food processor).

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

Your points regarding Caputo and hydration are extremely important, especially if someone is going to use Caputo for this exercise.  Basically, at 57% hydation, which is what I noted from A16, Caputo seems to feel like 62% hydration with most American flours due to the points that you make.  Hence, close to 61% with that flour would probably feel comparable.  And if you don't do something to offset the lack of amylase/sugar extraction in Caputo, you're going to get an A16 look and feel with a whitish balance shown in Willard's flatbreads, which is quite distinct as noted earlier from Amicis, which is closer to a darker balance than many NY street corners. 

If I remember right, Pete-zza, you got the best results from dairy whey to offset the weak amylase, which one can get from Bob's Red Mill at Whole Foods or maybe another source you used.  This seemed to work better than using a Malted Barley (also available at Whole Foods) for reasons that you note. 

I noticed that Pizzeria Antica in San Jose (not a recommended pizzeria for me) uses Malted Barley for Caputo and gave me a uniform darkish color at unacceptably low temps in their wood oven of less than 500F, which also produced an overly crispy critter thin pizza in their wood oven.  Years ago, I used to frequent Pronto's in Redwood City, which was a small hole with a great owner and wood oven that used Caputo & fresh Yeast like Amicis, and produced an overall color and texture a bit more akin to Amicis and that certainly deviated from Neapolitan.  I don't know their particulars; but they reflected it could be done with the right heat, which 2 stone can easily produce.  Oh well, another visit that I'll have to make.

[MWTC]

Tonights Pizza.

Giotto, If I rub the charred spots I do get some black residue on my finger. Not alot but some. It does not have that burnt taste.

MWTC 

[giotto]

MWTC:

Thank You!  What I like is that it appears tender even though it's charred.  Can't get that in my home oven.  Which 2 Stone config did you employ?

Here's examples of Amicis Pizza in Mtn View, CA.  It's an interesting combination of a darker version of New York colors (due to malted barley flour noted above & 767F Woodstone oven), with old world charm, and something that I'd love to shoot for.  I think it can be churned out with the 2 stone Bayou configuration following the reconstruction notes by Pete-zza & myself above.  I hope these pictures help.

[MWTC]

I am using the 2stone Oven, the original size.

That pizza that you just pictured is to well done for my tastes. As you can see in my picture of the bottom of my pizza its much lighter than that. I am working on getting it darker but not as dark as that one. I am using a pan and not directly on the stone,yet. I will advance to that when I get a better feel for it with this technique. This is my base starting point.

I am grateful to Willard for bringing us the High Heat. Just what we needed.

MWTC 

[abatardi]

now i'm gonna have to go get some amici's combo pizza... :-)

[Pete-zza]

As noted at the Amici's menu page, at http://amicis.com/menu.htm, diners can request a "light crust" for their pizzas.

Peter

[giotto]

There's a very distinct difference between the color presentation of a Neapolitan style reminiscent of Naples, a Neo-Neapolitan style similar to the old New York coal pizzas, and a Street Corner New York style.  The beauty of making your own is that you can create whatever presentation you want with sugar extractions & heat levels.  Nothing like preferences.

Like BBQ these days though, the legendary stuff can dissipate over time.  So places like Amicis have had to come up with a real upscale interior and abide by air quality requirements to make it happen for an odd marriage.  But the darker they serve it, the more the char and the better it tastes, and it made them the #1 independent not long ago. Our representation of what is often little more than peasant style living in Italy has also headed upscale.  Around here, places that claim authentic Italian food and Neapolitan pizza are all too often high-end dining experiences.  But like the authors of Smoke Stack Lightning said about BBQ masters (many of whom had passed away by the time the book was released), at least the type of food stays around. 

Here's an example of 3 distinct Pizzerias that I enjoy in my region and that exemplify 3 classic color/presentation differences as noted above. A16 uses wood fire & Caputo Flour and is an upscale representation of Naples style pizza.  Amicis uses Gas fire & a higher protein All-Purpose and is an upscale charred version of New York. A Slice of New York is a hole in the wall street corner pizzeria that uses an electric oven shipped from New York, and All Trump High Protein flour. 

Thanks to people like Willard and home bbq, we can do our own thing at home as another alternative, as you can see with my indirect smoked BBQ ribs.

[MWTC]

Tonights Pizza.

I thought I would try a little longer preheat period. 30 minutes and the center of the stone was at 800 degrees. I turned down the heat a little upon starting the bake. Just hearing a "mild jet sound",the flame just touching the pan. It baked for 3.5 minutes. It was more well done than the last one. The bottom was perfect for my taste but the top was a little to well done for me. I still need to adjust the temp. down upon baking. Getting closer.

MWTC 

[giotto]

MWTC:

Good presentation.  Is the exterior tender or hard?  How's the interior coming out?  How are you adjusting the heat and what heating device are you using?  I noticed recommendations earlier for putting tin foil over bbq grates under the 2stone.  I was hoping that if I went with a bayou, there was an adjustment as well on it.

[2stone]

Chris,

Can't wait to see some of your results.
Hope you have a digital camera in your arsenal also!

MWTC,

Looks like you got the Jeannie back in the bottle,
Those leopard spots are as good as any I've seen.
Are you still using the 6" baffle?


Giotto,

I answered your PM, if I missed anything let me know.
By the way some very nice pics you posted. I especially
like the way the pepperoni turned out. MWTC looks like he
got similar results on his pepperoni


Michael,

Thanks for posting those links, I like all the pics on this forum,
Along with pizza making that is another "art form"
It's interesting how pizza really does include a huge element of
"visual stimulation"

regards,
willard

[MWTC]

Is the exterior tender or hard?  How's the interior coming out?  How are you adjusting the heat and what heating device are you using?I was hoping that if I went with a bayou, there was an adjustment as well on it.

The exterior is not hard, I would consider it tender yet done. Very consistant, I'm sure it depends on the recipe. The interior is fantastic. Moist and chewy, I'm using 63% hydration with honey and oil. I am using the bayou gas level adjustment nob. To lower the amount of flame. I am still learning about that element, a work in-process. I am using the 6 inch baffle that comes with it. Seems to be working fine so far. I'm using the oven not the grill.

I'm repeating Myself but its great to have the high heat. With that element satisfied I can now experiment with different recipes and formulations and make progress. Where before the limits of the home oven was the roadblock that couldn't be moved. Thank-you Willard. The bruises on my head are healing, that wall was just to tough for it. Ask anyone (Pete-zza) who has been confronted with that wall.

MWTC 

[giotto]

Thank you for the updates!  By the way, while honey can have less impact than sugar when it comes to the browning of the pizza exterior, it does contribute.  So if you want a lighter overall exterior (except for the leopard spots from high heat) you may want to dispense of additional sugars.  Your oils (fats) contribute to your interior softening effect and the steam from increased hydration helps as well.  Regarding pepperoni, the dime-sized slices cup when the outer skin is still in place.  Amicis uses American Sausage company, which is commercial only.  Frankie provided many of us with a 1 time sample. Tasty stuff.

Hydration is interesting. Exceptional rustic breads from the likes of Artisan Bakers, ACME and some others in the San Francisco region employ 75% - 85% hydration along with a host of biga, starter, and delayed fermentation techniques with low protein flours and oven temps that range in the 400's. The results are amazing. Artisan Bakers is one of my favorites and has a 16 oz Pugliese bread that feels like a feather with gaping holes and color that of course employs no sugar.  It's probably the one time that I don't miss char, and the reason why people like Reinhart recommend higher hydrations.  But I often welcome char.  And with 800F - 1000F heat and a well designed oven, even slightly higher hydrations can do the trick, as reported by MWTC, to produce a moist interior with shorter time frames, along with the benefit of char.  Like Bill reported earlier though, excellent pizza can come from lesser presentations, as can lesser pizza from better presentations; but when it comes together under Artisan techniques, it really comes together.  I'm still surprised that 2stone got such an airy texture with such a short fermentation time in one of his examples. 

[MWTC]

I'll take out the honey and see what the effect of the elilmination produces.

In the past I have increased the honey and sugar, including whey with very little effect. But that was in the home oven.

MWTC 

[giotto]

It only takes about 8 hours to release most of the sugar from the starches.  Depending on the length of your fermentation period, you may already be depleting some of the sugar.  And even though honey has less of an impact to your crust color, its removal hopefully will help.

When I pulled this pizza out of the oven, it had the color of rattlesnake skin.  This flour can be tricky to read in the oven with its lighter colors.  So with a longer fermentation period (3 days), I added a little bit of sugar to give it some extra color.  Otherwise, I basically followed the Amicis formula and tuned the heat up a bit with the use of my broiler, which has several heating stages. 

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

Ordinarily, I would agree with you about the use of sugar, in whatever form, in terms of its contribution to crust coloration. And what you say about sugar is the conventional understanding. However, I have discovered that if you slow down the rate and efficiency of the amylase enzyme performance, as by keeping the dough as cold as possible at pretty much all stages, and you also “trick” the yeast so that it doesn’t reproduce as readily and gobble up all of the available residual (natural) sugars, you can end up with a dough that can last a couple of weeks in the refrigerator, and even longer in some cases, and still get a very good bake out of it in terms of crust coloration, crumb texture, and even sweetness—all without adding any sugar (sucrose, honey or whatever) to the dough at the outset.

As an example of what I am talking about, see Reply 110 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42160.html#msg42160. In that case, the dough was baked after 15 days of cold fermentation and had very good coloration without the use of any added sugar. In a subsequent experiment, I made a 23-day old cold fermented dough, as I described at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556. In that latter case, the crust flavors were on the funky side and I couldn’t detect the sweetness of prior efforts but there was not a deficiency of crust coloration by any measure—again, without adding any sugar to the dough at the outset. I don’t fully understand all of the chemistry involved, and maybe only a small piece of it, but the results described in the above posts (and elsewhere in the same thread) seem to defy the conventional wisdom when it comes to the role of sugar in a dough. Of course, sugar, whether added or natural, is not the only element that governs crust coloration. Using high temperatures, as with one of Willard’s units, also contributes to the final results because of the Maillard reactions, the denaturing of protein, carbonization, etc. The use of oils in and on the dough will also have their own effects on crust coloration.

You will also see at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928 that some of your early work involving the timing of yeast usage was in part instrumental in my decision to experiment with dough longevity as described above. The discovery of the sustainability of natural sugars over a period of a few weeks was a pleasant but unexpected byproduct of the experiments.

Peter

[2stone]

Chris,

Here is a stove top thermometer that I use all the time.
http://store.woodstove.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16283&cat=298&page=1
It goes up to 950 and works really well for the stone. It is really handy to take off the stone
with the turner if you leave the little wire up. When it hits 750 I take it off and get ready to go.
I figure its at 800 by the time I slip the pie on. Its about $10.00 plus shipping

If you are looking for a IR thermometer, this one seems like it's priced right and reaches the high temps
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/atd-701.html

Some people like to measure the air, I kind of go by the stone because that is what really matters most
to me. I know if I get the stone too much over 800 I'm looking for trouble.

willard

[cd1168]

thanks willard. also do you have the link so i can order the leg extender for the bayou? thanks in advance

-chris

[2stone]

Hey Chris,

Here is one place you can get them, http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-Extension-Legs-Burner/dp/B000BUZW5M0
I found them on some other sites too.
They only cost $10.00 which I thought was reasonable.

willard

here is another place, http://shopperschoice.com/item_name_Bayou-Classic-4-Piece-Extension-Leg-Set_path__item_397243.html
It also states that it raises the burner hight to 25"