Author Topic: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe  (Read 8026 times)

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Offline marcy

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Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« on: October 03, 2007, 03:37:29 AM »
I made the above subject dough last weekend..it's the dough that sits in the fridge for 24hrs. then out for atleast one before you roll it out..
It was extremely dry when I took it out of the kitchenaide (even though I added much more water) and it didn;t really raise, and it was as hard as heck to roll out...(I know the recipe says to use the reaper-but that's what restaurants have-I don;t) so I rolled and rolled and rolled till my shoulders were so sore- BUT the recipe was correct in saying that it would not shrink.  I have had nothing but trouble with my dough shrinking when I put it on the heated 'stone'.  And it was the first time that my house really smelled like a pizza restaurant.  It came out beautiful too- nice and crispy like a cracker.
What can I do to make it a little easier to roll out- and should it have risen ?
I;m so new at this, I hope I can find any replies that come to me from this...


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2007, 09:10:09 AM »
Marcy,

There are many members on this forum who are much more knowledgeable about cracker-style pizzas than I, and with bigger and stronger biceps than mine, but as long as you are using a dough formulation with a hydration percent in the 30s, you are bound to have problems rolling out the dough using a rolling pin. For best results, you will need commercial sheeting/rolling equipment such as used by professionals. However, one possible alternative in a home environment is to use a pasta roller to roll out the dough, as described, for example, by member elsegundo at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg41220.html#msg41220 (Reply 181) and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4617.msg38972.html#msg38972 (Reply 3). A shortcoming of the pasta roller method is that the size of the pizza is limited to something around 9”. Also, it is not entirely clear how well the pasta roller method will work with hydration percents in the 30s. I believe elsegundo's doughs are higher than that.

I'd like to mention that it is possible to use a higher hydration dough for a cracker-style crust and to roll out the dough with a rolling pin with relative ease. To do this most effectively without having the dough spring back excessively during rolling, the dough should undergo a fair amount of fermentation. However, even then, to get a good cracker quality you either have to create a laminated or multi-layered dough skin or dock and pre-bake the skin (without the layering) until it sets up and is light brown and then dress it and finish the baking. An example of a cracker-crust dough formulation that seems to lend itself reasonably well to these methods of preparation is the one described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.0.html. That formulation is quite similar to what is used to make a “thin and crispy” pizza but with a lower hydration (50%, as compared with around 58% for a thin and crispy dough formulation). Even 50% hydration is on the low side and will pose challenges to preparation of the dough--mainly in the mixer bowl and in the layering process--but I would personally rather deal with those challenges than the more formidable challenge (in my opinion) of working with and rolling out very low hydration doughs with only a rolling pin at my disposal.

As noted in the above thread, I have more experimenting to do with the higher hydration cracker-style doughs and hope to get to those experiments when the weather cools down in these parts.

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2007, 12:07:29 PM »
You might try this as a solution.  After you mix your dough, let it ferment at room temperature until doubled....then use your rolling pin to sheet the dough...and then refrigerate overnight.   Warm dough is a lot easier to sheet, than cold dough....even when your using industrial sheeters.  This is the method we use in our restaurant.

john

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2007, 01:58:02 PM »
John,

Can you give us an idea about the dough recipe you are using in the restaurant, and is the dough intended to be used to make cracker-style pizzas? I would think that for the dough to double in any reasonable time frame (e.g., within a few hours), the dough would have to be a fairly high hydration dough and also have a fair amount of yeast. I would also think that the dough would be quite warm coming out of the bowl.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 02:00:18 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2007, 04:30:15 PM »
Sure Peter

100 % high gluten flour
.75  %SAF Instant yeast
~37 % water (varies depending on the flour that day)
1.25% salt
4 % vegetable oil

Water temp is measured to have an after mix 80 degree dough....on our huge mixer, it mixes about 21 minutes..(this is about how long it actually takes for the dough to form a single ball.)  Bulk fermentation in big plastic garbage type cans...takes about 1 hour 25 minutes to double depending on kitchen conditions.  We then run batches of dough through our sheeter (lamination), pulling ribbons and using templates to cut our perfect circles....about 20 ounces of dough per 16 inch pizza seems to work perfect for us.  We then refrigerate the skins until at least the next day, or conversely you can freeze these skins and thaw them in refrigerator 1 to 3 days before usage.  They are baked in deck ovens with temps ranging from about 590 to 640 depending on the specific dough pieces you are using.

Whether this is technically a cracker crust I can't tell you...but this is a method we developed for our own operation.   There are some pictures of finished product at fazzaris.com if this helps.

Thanks for a great forum
I've been working on some 36 hour room temp fermented dough (just for personal use) and have to say, the crusts are absolutely fabulous tasting.  I've got more brewing upstairs.

Thanks again

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2007, 06:11:40 PM »
John,

Thank you very much.

Your dough formulation is remarkably similar to forum member DKM’s cracker-style dough formulation as given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. DKM uses sugar in his dough, which you do not, and he uses ADY rather than IDY, but when the ADY is converted to IDY, the yeast quantities are very similar. At 0.75% IDY, I would normally expect to see a decent rise in the dough but I must admit I wouldn’t expect a doubling in an hour and 25 minutes for a dough with such a low hydration.

Based on your 20-ounce dough weight for a 16” pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.09947 [20/(3.14159 x 8 x 8)]. That is more equivalent to a NY thin style. For a typical cracker-type crust, my calculations have been about 0.05-0.07. I don’t know what DKM’s corresponding thickness factor is because he does not prepare skins the way you do, but rather rolls out the dough to a particular thickness (1/16”) and cuts away the excess of dough that overlaps the cutter pan into and over which the rolled-out skin is placed. I would definitely say that DKM’s crust is a cracker crust.

For kicks, I ran your baker’s percents and dough weight through one of the forum’s dough calculating tools at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to see what amounts of ingredients would be necessary to make a single 16” pizza using 20 ounces of dough. This is what I got:

Flour (100%):
Water (37%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.25%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Total (143%):
396.5 g  |  13.99 oz | 0.87 lbs
146.71 g  |  5.17 oz | 0.32 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.96 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
15.86 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.49 tsp | 1.16 tbsp
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A

Maybe one of our members can give the formulation a try, including using the tip you mentioned in your original post. I know that some pizza operators who specialize in the cracker-style pizzas do pre-sheet their dough skins and stack and store them in their coolers for next day use, but the idea of doing the same for a single dough skin did not occur to me. You didn’t indicate, but do you dock your skins, and do you temper them at room temperature before dressing and baking?

BTW, in which state are you located, and are you one of the two handsome gentlemen shown at your website at http://www.fazzaris.com?

Thanks again, and welcome to the forum.

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2007, 10:04:14 PM »
Peter
Thanks for the breakdown of ingredients...
In answer to your questions, we are in Washington State (Clarkston), right on the Idaho border.  We do not dock our skins, nor do we temper them.  I'm the old guy in the picture.  Originally we used malt in our dough, and in fact we also used bakers cheese...but these were eliminated when we deconstructed our whole process and went back to basics.

I also was taught many years ago, to roll dough to a specific thickness...but after years of observation, every dough is different, and rolling to specific weights gives us way more uniformity.  The hard part about this particular dough, is that each pizza has to be individually baked.....some need a hot spot, some need a screen to slow them down..so you can imagine trying to tend 4 deck ovens, 3 of them full of pizza.  It can get very hairy!!!

Peter, you will never know how the information found on sites such as this have saved my professional life as a pizza man....

Thank you
John

Offline scott r

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2007, 10:40:03 PM »
John, that is one of the most creative menu's I have ever seen.  Nice work.  Some of the unusual pies have me salivating.   Is your mustard sauce sweet at all?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007, 09:17:06 AM »
Peter, you will never know how the information found on sites such as this have saved my professional life as a pizza man....

John,

What other sites have you found useful on pizza related matters?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 09:46:14 AM »
In rethinking the dough formulation I posted earlier for a 16" pizza, if I were to make a pizza of that size and use a rolling pin to roll out the dough, I think I would make enough dough for a 17" skin and use a template of some sort (e.g., a 16" pizza screen) to cut out the 16" skin. That would be far easier to do than trying to roll out a perfect 16" skin and might also produce a more uniform thickness. I would also use a bowl residue factor of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl. Making these changes would produce the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (37%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.25%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Total (143%):
454.32 g  |  16.03 oz | 1 lbs
168.1 g  |  5.93 oz | 0.37 lbs
3.41 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
5.68 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
18.17 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
649.68 g | 22.92 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.1009621
Note: TF used = 0.09947; pizza size entered into tool = 17”; residue compensation = 1.5%

If one wishes to make a different size pizza, I would use the thickness factor 0.09947 and the new pizza size plus one inch in the dough calculating tool, along with the same baker's percents given above, including for the bowl residue compensating percent. So, for example, for a 14" pizza, the dough formulation would be:

Flour (100%):
Water (37%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.25%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Total (143%):
353.71 g  |  12.48 oz | 0.78 lbs
130.87 g  |  4.62 oz | 0.29 lbs
2.65 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
4.42 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
14.15 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
505.81 g | 17.84 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.1009621
Note: TF used = 0.09947; pizza size entered into tool = 15”; residue compensation = 1.5%

BTW, there is no reason why the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html can’t be used to get the above dough formulations. I used the enhanced tool only because John specified vegetable oil rather than olive oil. But the differences are likely to be small at the measuring spoon level to be of any real concern.

Peter


Offline fazzari

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 02:03:54 PM »
Peter
The biggest revelations about dough (bread or pizza), came from reading a couple of Peter Reinharts books...that started the process, and then I found the Pizza Today and PMQ websites, where I learned a ton from reading all of Tom Lehmann's articles as well as Dave Ostranders.  I even attended a week long pizza making seminar at AIB...that was awesome.  But lately, the book I really love is Jeff Hamelman's "Bread"....I love this book!!!  Along the way, I found this site, and off and on I would see what people were doing and loved it.  I think I must be a bit sick, because even after working 60+ hours per week in my pizza restaurant, all I can think about, is that next batch of dough I'm making at home.  Perhaps I've found a home here???

John

Scott...the mustard sauce is a very simple mustard/mayo combo...for those of you who think only tomatoes should go on a pizza, please think again..... a nice mustard flavor in combination with various smoked meats, or pineapple, or all vegetables, or even anchovies is simply to die for.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 02:08:37 PM by fazzari »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 02:28:18 PM »
I think I must be a bit sick, because even after working 60+ hours per week in my pizza restaurant, all I can think about, is that next batch of dough I'm making at home.  Perhaps I've found a home here???

John,

I sure hope you will stick around here and contribute to the growing body of knowledge about pizza making. I wasn't trying to discourage you from being an active member of this forum but I would have mentioned the PMQ Think Tank forum and the Pizza Today Bulletin Boards if you hadn't mentioned them. As you perhaps have already noticed, there are a lot of Tom Lehmann fans on this forum. And with good reason. There are precious few experts in the field whose work is made readily available to anyone who is interested in pizza. Evelyne Slomon is another. Regretably, Dave Ostrander recently contracted a serious illness for which he apparently is being treated so it is not clear what role he will play in the near future.

Peter

Offline Jack

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 10:17:39 AM »
John,

I just finished some work out in Clarkson, I wish I had known earlier.  If/when I get back into town, I'll stop in. 

Nice job! 

Jack
Seattle

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 07:33:56 PM »
In keeping with my many experiments with cracker style pizzas over the past year, I decided to try member John Fazzari’s cracker-style crust recipe as set forth in Reply 4 in this thread. To do this, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation to make a single 14” pizza. The dough formulation I used was as follows:

Harvest King Bread Flour (100%):
Water (37%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (1.25%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Total (143%):
351.97 g  |  12.42 oz | 0.78 lbs
130.23 g  |  4.59 oz | 0.29 lbs
2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
4.4 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
14.08 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.1 tsp | 1.03 tbsp
503.31 g | 17.75 oz | 1.11 lbs | TF = 0.1004647
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09947; pizza size entered into the tool = 15”; bowl residue compensation = 1%

As noted from the above table, I used a nominal thickness factor of 0.09947 in the tool. This is the value that I calculated from information provided by John and noted in Reply 5. To be sure that I could get a nice, round 14” skin to make the pizza, I entered a value of 15” for the pizza size in the tool. That way, I could make a roughly 15” skin and use a template (in my case, a 14” pizza screen) to cut out a clean 14” skin. Finally, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1% to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl. In my case, the bowl was the bowl of a food processor (Cuisinart 14-cup) that I used to make the dough. Because a food processor can add a fair amount of heat to a dough, the water I used to make the dough came directly out of the refrigerator and, by the time I used it, had a temperature of about 50 degrees F.

To prepare the dough, I put the flour (Harvest King bread flour), the IDY and the salt in the bowl of the food processor. These ingredients were pulsed for about 10 seconds to thoroughly combine. I then added the water to the processor bowl and pulsed that in for about 30 seconds. Finally, I added the oil to the bowl and pulsed that in, for about another 30 seconds. By this point, the dough was very scrappy and had a consistency of very coarse cornmeal, with some clumping. I emptied the contents of the processor bowl on my work surface and pressed the dough ingredients into a single, fairly cohesive ball. This was accomplished with ease. The finished dough weight was 17.55 ounces. The finished dough temperature was around 82 degrees F.

The dough was then lightly oiled and placed in a plastic Rubbermaid container. To monitor its progress during the period of its room temperature fermentation, I placed two poppy seeds spaced 1” apart at the top, center part of the dough ball. This was done to see how much and how fast the dough would rise, all in accordance with the method described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. I then loosely covered the Rubbermaid bowl with a plastic lid.

My expectation was that the dough would at least double in volume. However, the maximum expansion was about 67%. That peak occurred after about two hours at a room temperature of around 82 degrees F. After peaking, the dough stabilized but didn’t contract. However, to get better crust flavors and texture, I let the dough rest at room temperature for another hour and a half, for a total of around 3 ˝ hours.

Rather than placing the dough ball directly into the refrigerator at this stage, I decided to form a skin out of the dough ball, just as John does, and put that into the refrigerator. To do this, I flattened the dough ball and rolled it out to roughly 15”, using a combination of a heavy marble rolling pin and a French tapered wooden rolling pin. I found that the heavy marble rolling pin worked best in the middle part of the skin and that the French rolling pin worked best at the edges. Overall, it took only 5-6 minutes to roll the dough skin out to about 15”. I then used a 14” pizza screen as a template to cut out a nice round 14” skin from the roughly 15” skin. The 14” skin weighed 14.50 ounces. That translated into a thickness factor of 0.0942, or slightly less than the nominal thickness factor used in the expanded dough calculating tool. The finished skin is shown in the first photo below, together with the two rolling pins I used.

To conveniently store the 14” skin in the refrigerator from a space standpoint, I folded the skin in quarters and encased it in plastic wrap. To be sure that the dough wouldn’t stick to itself, I made sure that there was plastic wrap between all mating surfaces. The second photo below shows the folded skin encased in plastic wrap. The dough then went in the refrigerator where it remained for 48 hours.

To make a pizza out of the dough, I removed it from the refrigerator and let it warm up, at room temperature, for about one hour. Before doing this, I had noted that the dough skin had shrunk an inch while in the refrigerator. To get the skin back to its original 14” size, I simply rolled the skin back out to 14” using my French rolling pin. This was done with ease.

The skin was dressed in the “Clarkston” style as shown at John’s website, at http://www.fazzaris.com/pizzamenuclarkston.htm. As noted there, the “Clarkston” includes sauce (I used a basic seasoned 6-in-1 sauce), mozzarella cheese (I used shredded Best Choice low-moisture part-skim mozzarella), pepperoni slices (I used Hormel), Italian sausage, and slices of green bell pepper (plus hot sauce if desired). In my case, the Italian sausage was a combination of a Texas wild boar Italian sausage and a regular hot Italian sausage (1 link each). I had pre-cooked the sausage until it was at the pink stage and then placed on the pizza. I tried to place the sauce, cheese and toppings as far out to the edge as possible. Surprisingly, the cheese and toppings remained in place when I loaded the pizza into the oven.

The pizza was baked for six minutes on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 525 degrees F. To help cook the green peppers a bit more, I moved the pizza off of the stone to the uppermost oven rack position for about a minute. The photos in the following post show the finished pizza.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out exceptionally well. The crust at the rim was on the crispy side, but the rest of the crust was surprisingly tender while still having a cracker texture. The crust color and flavor were very good. I thoroughly enjoyed the pizza.

After preparing the dough for the latest pizza, I was reminded that John had improved his dough formulation and preparation methods, as he describes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6604.0.html. In due course, I will give the new dough formulation and his improved dough preparation methods a try.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:29:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 07:38:05 PM »
And photos of the pizza itself...

Peter

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 11:03:21 AM »
Great pictures, Peter!

AWESOME looking pizza!! :chef: :pizza:

My compliments! 

I think I am going to try a similar recipe this weekend if I can work it in.

Thanks for sharing! :D
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2008, 01:18:50 PM »
Mad_Ernie,

Thanks for the compliment. I used whatever ingredients and toppings I had on hand, but John and his brother have a very creative pizza menu for their pizzeria/restaurant. One of their stylistic pizzas that I would like to try is the "Q", at http://www.fazzaris.com/pizzamenutheq.htm. Or possibly the "Shabam", at http://www.fazzaris.com/pizzamenushabam.htm. My recollection is that the mustard sauce used in some of their pizzas is just a simple combination of prepared mustard and mayonnaise.

Peter

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2008, 01:47:32 PM »
Peter:

The pictures remind me of your Round Table pizza clone, although obviously this recipe calls for a lower hydration for the dough.  If you can recall that experiment, how does this pizza compare/contrast to that one?

Thanks,

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Think cracker crust pizza dough recipe
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 02:10:17 PM »
If you can recall that experiment, how does this pizza compare/contrast to that one?

ME,

John may be a better judge because he has also tried one of the RT clone recipes that I came up with. However, I would say that the two crusts were very different. The RT clone dough has a higher hydration, as you noted, but it also includes some dry milk powder, which can create a softening effect. In terms of the finished RT clone crust, I reported my results at the RT thread as follows:

It wasn’t especially cracker-like and it wasn’t overly crispy, but the crust was crispy at the edges and randomly elsewhere. The center was soft and a bit chewy, and I could see distinct layers when I tried to peel back the crust.

I found the crust made using John's recipe to be cracker-like, but more tender in the middle than I expected. But the mouthfeels of the two crusts were very different.

Peter