Author Topic: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven  (Read 5675 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Thank you, willard. But I refer you back to marco's photos as great examples of the pizzas I have most enjoyed in Naples. My preferred pies which are shown in most of my photos have exaggerated, very puffy edges - not authentic, but that is the way I really love my pizzas.

Many of the photos I have posted here were embedded images which are no longer supported on this forum. However, here is an example of my signature Pizza Lolita.

Bill/SFNM


Offline 2stone

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Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2007, 04:00:05 PM »
Bill,

Very,very nice, just the way I like mine, with larger crusts.
Did you oil that crust before or after, or is that just the way it looks.
Beautiful pie!

willard
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 04:45:23 PM »
I notice that the crust looks pretty shiny. Are you brushing the crust with oil or is there another reason?

Pizza Lolita has some white truffle oil drizzled on it after baking. The one in the photo got a little too much oil. I like just a hint.

Offline 2stone

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 10:27:29 PM »
Bill,

you really had me stumped there for a while!
I was looking all over for the pie you posted.

By the way, How long does it take to get your
oven up to a 1000 .... what do you normally bake
at?

willard

2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline shango

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2007, 08:15:50 AM »
Bill,

That pizza looks great!  what is the topping?  Eggplant?

If you like your pizze on the puffy side you should try 2Amys here in DC..Sometimes it is silly how inflated those cornicione are.

Post more pics..Your pizze are always a pleasure to look at.

-E
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2007, 08:32:40 AM »
Bill,

That pizza looks great!  what is the topping?  Eggplant?

If you like your pizze on the puffy side you should try 2Amys here in DC..Sometimes it is silly how inflated those cornicione are.

Post more pics..Your pizze are always a pleasure to look at.

-E

Thanks, Shango. The "Lolita" is usually topped with:

Wild mushrooms sautéed with shallots or maybe some garlic
Fontina Val D'osta
Mutz
Parm
Sea salt
Truffle Oil (after baking) - just a hint



Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2007, 08:38:27 AM »

By the way, How long does it take to get your
oven up to a 1000 .... what do you normally bake
at?


Willard,

These days I'm baking with a deck temp of about 925F-950F. The amount of time it takes to get up to temp depends on how long it has been since I used the oven, outdoor temp, etc. Also, I recently took delivery of cord of wood (oak) that seems to put out more BTU's than the last batch which may have a little punky.

Anyway, worst case: dead of winter, nighttime temps in the teens, oven has completely cooled down: about 4 hours. This summer when I was using the oven every other day, maybe 1-2 hours at most. The great thing about such a large thermal mass is that I can cook several meals on a single firing.

Bill/SFNM

Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2007, 09:40:45 AM »
Bill, have you ever measured the air temps?  I am trying to figure out what good air-to-deck temperature ratios are.  The fact that it is a flame as opposed to the indirect heat  I have in a 2stone will also matter, but it would still be helpful for me to know what the air temp is in a brick oven.  Since there is heat transfer from fire to air to deck it seems like the air will always be hotter; my wild guess is 100-200F hotter.

Scott

Offline shango

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 09:47:27 AM »
This past Sunday afternoon I spent an hour or so making pizza with DaveK and Fio, from the forum..He has a newly built Forno Bravo oven (it's very nice). 

We measured (with a laser) a floor temp of 750 and an air temp of 950..This would put you in the 200 degree range.  However, the air temp and floor temp are subject to a lot of fluctuation, depending on the size of the flame, bed of coals, numer of pizze cooked, etc..

-E

P.S.  The pizze were great.  Wish I had taken some pictures..
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 09:48:59 AM by shango »
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2007, 09:51:03 AM »
Scott,

No, not lately. Of all of the temperatures in the chamber, the air temp has the least impact over the 60 seconds or so it takes the pie to bake. Relatively little of the crust is in direct contact with the air. By far, most of the energy absorbed by the pie will come from the deck and is responsible for how the crust comes out. In the case of my oven, radiant heat from the flames and coals and dome is what takes care of top and edges.

Not sure how this will play out in a 2stone, but I would guess the whole charring/leoparding thing is going to be problematic. I would avoid using these visual cues and focus on the taste and texture of the crust first and foremost.

Bill/SFNM


Offline 2stone

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 09:14:22 PM »
Hey Bill

Do you constantly have to turn your pies or
do you pretty much put them inn and take them out.
Also I have noticed that some people lift the pie up to wards
the dome for a while. do you do that, is that done to finish baking the top
or to add more flavor to it.

willard
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 09:37:15 PM »
Turning pies: usually turn them a few times during baking.

Lifting (doming) pies: Sometimes. This interesting question you pose is all about how the toppings are cooked. During the brief time (less than a minute) that the pie is baking, there are very few factors that I can control. The deck temp, which is the key to getting the crust just right, is pretty much fixed, although I could mop with a wet towel before unloading the pie if I wanted to cool down the deck. I could also move the pie to a new spot on the deck during baking if I wanted to apply more heat.

The dome which radiates heat down onto the pie as well as flames from the fire are key to getting the toppings baked. I can control the flames by stoking the fire with small pieces of wood or sawdust. If I were a dedicated pizza maker and stayed outside by the oven at all times, I'm sure I could keep a nice fire going and wouldn't have to dome the pie. But I go inside after each pie to EAT some the darn thing, so there times I am ready to load a new pie and the fire has died down and there isn't time to stoke it up a bit. That is when I dome the pie at the end of the cooking to bring it for just a few moments closer to the dome where it is really, really hot.

Does that make sense?

Best,
Bill/SFNM

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2007, 11:22:01 AM »
If I were a dedicated pizza maker and stayed outside by the oven at all times, I'm sure I could keep a nice fire going and wouldn't have to dome the pie.

I'm glad you said that, Bill.  After watching your video and some others, I always lifted the pizza up to the ceiling for a couple of seconds.  Usually it was hit or miss.  Mostly miss.  The miss pizzas produced harder crusts. 
While taking a tour of Tutta Bella in Seattle, I learned that if it looks done in the oven - it's overdone.
There is no dome lifting there.  Of course, they have busy red hot ovens.
Since I make mine one after the other, I omit the lifting.  The result is a thin shell of crunch and softness inside. 
To achieve what Brian does @ TuttaBella I had to reduce cheese chunk size and toppings.
 

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2007, 12:01:42 PM »
I'm glad you said that, Bill.  After watching your video and some others, I always lifted the pizza up to the ceiling for a couple of seconds.  Usually it was hit or miss. 

PizzaPolice,

That video isn't a very good example of how I bake pies. The oven wasn't hot enough and I was just testing to see if my little P&S digital camera could take decent videos and whether uploading to youTube was a viable way to share videos. I just got a new camcorder which does a much better job, so maybe next week I'll have some new footage to show.

I agree that a pie that looks done is probably overbaked. I would guess that only about 25% of my pies are the way I want them. Maybe after a few thousand more I'll get it up to 50%.
 

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 12:48:25 PM »
Thanks for the insight.  There are so many variables.  Consistency is important as long as you can recognize when change is needed.
Ever notice how the last of the batch seem to turn out better.  It's kinda like throwing out the first pancake.  I'm guessing the WFO has modulated and the dough balls have acclimated.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 01:25:11 PM »
Ever notice how the last of the batch seem to turn out better.  It's kinda like throwing out the first pancake.  I'm guessing the WFO has modulated and the dough balls have acclimated.

Nope, not unless I have under-proofed the batch. For my style of dough and oven, longer proofing and/or higher proofing temps gives better results, up to a point. Still searching for the sweet spot. But if I have fermented and proofed the batch well, the pies are pretty consistent as long as the oven conditions are also. Easier said than done.

Bill/SFNM


Offline scottfsmith

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 04:04:34 PM »
No, not lately. Of all of the temperatures in the chamber, the air temp has the least impact over the 60 seconds or so it takes the pie to bake. Relatively little of the crust is in direct contact with the air. By far, most of the energy absorbed by the pie will come from the deck and is responsible for how the crust comes out. In the case of my oven, radiant heat from the flames and coals and dome is what takes care of top and edges.

Not sure how this will play out in a 2stone, but I would guess the whole charring/leoparding thing is going to be problematic. I would avoid using these visual cues and focus on the taste and texture of the crust first and foremost.

Bill, I have been puzzling over your remarks above.  I think it may be better to talk more precisely, in terms of the three kinds of heat transfer that are possible: radiation, convection, and conduction (no, I'm not someone with perfect memory of high school physics - I just looked it up in Wikipedia).   Radiation is directional heat radiation, convection is heating by flowing hot air, and conduction is by surface contact.  The bottom of the pizza cooks by radiation and conduction I guess, and the top cooks by radiation and convection - ??  A probe "in the air" is like the top of the pizza in that it will measure both radiant and convective heat (both the air flowing by the probe and the radiation striking it  will heat up the probe).  So I think an air probe will in fact be an important reading in both the 2stone and in a woodfired oven.

In comparing the 2stone and a wood-fired pizza oven, both will heat the pizza bottom by the same kind of heat; the pizza top will also be heated by convection and radiation in both cases, but I expect it will have more radiant heat in the wood-burning oven whereas the 2stone will have more convection heat due to the airflow of the hot air.  The 2stone has a stone on the top which will also be radiating heat down on to the pizza, so this is very much like the top of the wood pizza oven.   My wild guess is this top-down radiation  component will be roughly similar on both (note the wood oven ceiling was heated more by radiation and the 2stone ceiling more by convection, but once they are heated they are both radiators of heat, the original source of the heat has no relevance); I am going to use my IR gun to measure the heat on that top stone next time and perhaps that can be compared to brick oven ceiling temps.  What is missing in the 2stone is the radiant heat from the fire, but it compensates by more convection heat I expect, due to airflow from flames up.  Convection in a woodburning oven is from air flowing in the front and out the top, so the pizza will be more "upstream" from the heat source compared to the 2stone, so I think there will be less convection heating in a woodburning oven.   But, I don't know what the air currents there are precisely, maybe the air flow spirals all around the oven or something.

Since these heating profiles are somewhat different in the two, it could well be manifest in some difference of how a "best tasting" crust looks in the two methods.

Does that make sense?

Scott

Offline shango

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 05:04:49 PM »
scott,

another factor to consider, (as if it weren't overwhelming already.), humidity..within the 2stone vs. forno..
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 08:54:45 PM »
OK...  How many do you make at one time?  Maybe we're not on the same road.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza Lolita (split from Reverse Engineered Coal Fire Brick Oven
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2007, 10:07:10 PM »
Scott,

They key to all this is not so much the precise measurement of all of these dynamic variables but, rather, a dedication (obsession?) to frequent experimentation to get to know your oven and your dough. That is the only path I know of. I estimate I have gone through 800+ pounds of flour so far in this quest and I feel I'm just starting to get a feel for this.

There are many other factors to consider such as humidity as Shango points out, but there is also one that keeps me awake at night: my own tastes continue to evolve. What I thought was terrific a few years ago is now pretty ho-hum. And what I thought I wanted - real, authentic, bona fide, Neapolitan pie - is no longer what I aim for.
FWIW.