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[NY pizzastriver]

I have sort of an interesting story on the resiliency of Lehmann dough. A few days back I made a couple 2 day balls, no sugar, and left it for all of 2 days in fridge. They then sat out for about 3 hrs dusted. One was great, my second tore. First tear in 20 something pizzas. I tried to fix it but it was hopeless. I then re-kneaded a few times and it was of course an unresponsive rubber ball. I did this with the intent of freezing it for later, maybe roll it out for a boli or some knots. No care taken in freezing it whatsoever, saran and foil in a tight tight ball.

After being in the freezer for a few days I decided to try it as a pizza again. Put the frozen ball in oiled container and put in fridge overnight to thaw. Today it sat out in container for 90 mins. I was shocked to see any signs of life, but I did. Then I placed it into 1 minute heated (85 degree) oven for about 10 mins, dusted and covered on board, for a final boost. Then back at room temp, still covered, for 90 mins as oven heated. I was really shocked how it bounced back. I've seen many instanced where dough is prepared and frozen right away before counter rest, like Peter did below, but I'd not seen success stories when freezing after room temp rise.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg62457.html#msg62457

I figured once you did the final rise that then stretching it, re-balling, freezing it, thawing, re-rising, then stretching again would surely create a disaster. Maybe this is frequently done and I'm shocked over nothing, if so sorry. :-) I actually figured it would be unresponsive and never get to stretching point. Judge for yourself, it was like nothing ever happened. No lack of bubbles in the skin as you can see.

(And yes that is crumbled sausage for a change of pace. I know this defies all my NY bias cut ways, but it was really good!)

[Pete-zza]

J,

I have read about people placing their unused dough balls into the freezer at just about every point along the dough preparation/management time continuum, but not after re-balling the dough as you did. I am impressed with the results you got. As you may know, the freezing stopped all fermentation of the dough. It perhaps was good that you froze the dough ball after two days while there was still enough yeast in the dough to perform once you defrosted the dough ball (which restarted the fermentation process) and warmed it up at room temperature and in your oven to allow the gluten to recover and for the dough to proof before using.

A lot of people would die to get the types of bubbles you got in your pizza. Maybe you will start a new trend where our members will be freezing their dough balls all over the place to try to replicate your results.

Peter

[NY pizzastriver]

Lol Peter, 

Yeah, I'm not really sure if this trend sounds wise. I'd sort of recommend not trying this at home, but the idea of people freezing the balls all over the place is pretty darn funny. I can hear it now, "As a twist on the classic 'NYPS Freezer Method' I froze my dough ball in the mixing bowl, mixer and all! Pizza was great, need new mixer though."

Yeah, I feel the lawsuits coming already. 

btw I corrected my post, my bad. The 10 minutes in oven was between room temp stages. Just wanted it right as it may make difference to the daring at heart.

Frankly speaking I think it was about the same as the original. I was just astonished how it rebounded back to exact form. All my pies have these bubbles now, though. I attribute it to strategically placed rest periods, but really feeling exactly when the hand kneading is done. I love the fact I have no set knead times. It depends so much on the hydration of that recipe. Also good timing in long counter rests, etc, but you feel it in the knead. You can almost hear the dough saying "stop now" if you listen reeeally close. 

[Essen1]

Jimbo,

Now THAT is a great-looking pie you put out!

And I second Peter's sentiment in regards to the bubbles in your crust. Lots of people would go great distances to get those bubbles, me included. But I'm not ready yet to freeze my balls, dough balls that is, with or without the entire mixer. 

Keep it up, Bro!

[NY pizzastriver]

again Mike! And thanks much. 

Well if you look up at my now added thoughts on the bubbles, I don't get them from freezing, lol. This is the first time I ever froze any dough, it was just at the ''ready to go into the oven'' stage. Getting the bubbles again after all the abuse that followed, that was the cool part.
 

[Essen1]

Also good timing in long counter rests, etc, but you feel it in the knead. You can almost hear the dough saying "stop now" if you listen reeeally close.

Well then, don't stop "feeling and listening" just yet. You might be on to something here. 

[NY pizzastriver]

Well then, don't stop "feeling and listening" just yet. You might be on to something here. 

Well my first thought for you (and isn't it funny me giving you advice, so not to sound arrogant) for this dough would be do the yeast, water, oil, salt and 50- 60% flour only. Mix in your fancy shmancy ''mixer'' (lol) to thick batter. Raise ''mixing contraption'' and hand whisk it up nicely in bowl, almost to frothy batter. Let it rest 20 mins covered. Add rest of flour and turn on your ''mixer'' for about 1 minute shy of when you would usually take it out to ball. Do 2 minutes of hand kneading and ball it right away, bulk. Cover it in dark oiled bowl with pot lid, 25-30 mins rest. Then do just a few quarter turn hand kneads on bulk and divide to appropriate sized balls. Do a few more pulls, turns and folds to each, shape, then into containers. I do a lot of gentle pulls to the dough after each turn, to get a nice elongated shape, before folding and pressing. That's new, and I think I see more bubbles for it.

I make the point of balling it before 2nd rest as I think there's a vast difference in the affects of the rest period in a ball over letting it rest unformed in the bowl. This is my own observation, I have nothing to back it other than what I've seen. My novice guess on chemistry would be the breakdown (deconstruction) and gasses are greater in balled form.

[Essen1]

Well my first thought for you (and isn't it funny me giving you advice, so not to sound arrogant) for this dough would be do the yeast, water, oil, salt and 50- 60% flour only. Mix in your fancy shmancy ''mixer'' (lol) to thick batter. Raise ''mixing contraption'' and hand whisk it up nicely in bowl, almost to frothy batter. Let it rest 20 mins covered. Add rest of flour and turn on your ''mixer'' for about 1 minute shy of when you would usually take it out to ball. Do 2 minutes of hand kneading and ball it right away, bulk. Cover it in dark oiled bowl with pot lid, 25-30 mins rest. Then do just a few quarter turn hand kneads on bulk and divide to appropriate sized balls. Do a few more pulls, turns and folds to each, shape, then into containers. I do a lot of gentle pulls to the dough after each turn, to get a nice elongated shape, before folding and pressing. That's new, and I think I see more bubbles for it.

I make the point of balling it before 2nd rest as I think there's a vast difference in the affects of the rest period in a ball over letting it rest unformed in the bowl. This is my own observation, I have nothing to back it other than what I've seen. My novice guess on chemistry would be the breakdown (deconstruction) and gasses are greater in balled form.

Jimbo,

I'm here to learn, so if you came up with an interesting kneading regimen it is definitely worth to check it out. And it also helps that your technique apparently achieves those nice bubbles.

I will surely try it out with one of my upcoming batches and report back to you. But, Dude, you're unbelievably arrogant. Juuuust kidding, of course...

[NY pizzastriver]

Jimbo,

I'm here to learn, so if you came up with an interesting kneading regimen it is definitely worth to check it out. And it also helps that your technique apparently achieves those nice bubbles.

I have not used the services of any regiment, military or otherwise, to knead.
Ok, ...once I did on a Roma tomato flavored batch. Here's the unfortunate results, with slow-mo playback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAsUKvaE8e0

Oh wait, you said regimen. Never mind. 

[Essen1]

I have not used the services of any regiment, military or otherwise, to knead.
Ok, ...once I did on a Roma tomato flavored batch. Here's the unfortunate results, with slow-mo playback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAsUKvaE8e0

Oh wait, you said regimen. Never mind. 

Cool video, Jim.

But I think you need a landscaper first before you employ an entire regiment for kneading purposes! 

Btw, here's a pic of my backyard...

[NY pizzastriver]

Um, so you live by Neil Young...geez this could really be your yard!? Umm...

Very nice, love the Italian/Greek flair. 

[JConk007]

Mike
 I am having a hard time locating the WFO in your backyard ? Is that it in the middle or do you push a button and it pops up 
John

[sourdough girl]

Mike
 I am having a hard time locating the WFO in your backyard ? Is that it in the middle or do you push a button and it pops up 
John

LOL!
I'm sure that this is only PART of Mike's estate.... the WFO is probably on a different ACRE somewhere!  I just hope he can FIND it when he's hungry for pizza!!

~sd

[Essen1]

A WFO? Nah, too expensive.

[JConk007]

 Its only money sell a column 

[smarttowers]

This thread is a great resource is there any chance we could get it labeled a "sticky" so that it would be easier to find when it goes in active for longer periods of time?

[Dragonborn]

ok ok I give. After 3 days of reading this thread. ( read it on smoke breaks) I still dont know what tom L to use for 2 16" pizzas im going to use one dough an hour or 2 after I make them and the other ball hits the fridg
if somone could post the newest tom L for me that would be great.   39 pages if alittle much when you hungry

DB(Mike)

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I am aware of only one Lehmann NY style dough recipe and it is the one in the Recipe Bank at the PMQ.com website. Unfortunately, that website has been down for most of the day so I can't link you to the recipe. When the site is back up, I will link you to the Lehmann recipe. However, you can't use the identical recipe to make both a short-time ("emergency") dough and a cold fermented dough, as you will have learned when you read Replies 407 and 408 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251. In those posts, I discussed making 12" pizzas using a thickness factor of 0.105. However, a while back, Tom Lehmann told me via an email exchange that he now recommends using 17.75 ounces of dough for a 16" NY style pizza. That translates to a thickness factor of 0.0882813. You can use either the 17.75 ounces (Dough Weigh option) or the 0.0882813 thickness factor (Thickness Factor option) in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to do all the number crunching. You will have to enter the desired values (baker's percents) for the various ingredients based on the desired hydration (which is related to the type/brand of flour you plan to use), and the type of yeast (ADY, IDY or cake yeast), salt (regular/sea salt or Morton's or Diamond Crystal Kosher), and oil (e.g., olive oil, vegetable oil, etc.) you plan to use. I perhaps can give you some guidance if you tell me all of the ingredients you plan to use in sufficient detail to be able to use the dough calculating tool. If you read the Lehmann thread, you perhaps won't need my help in coming up with the required dough formulations.

At the risk of giving you even more reading material, if you are new at pizza making you might take a look at this thread that I frequently recommend to newbies in relation to the Lehmann NY style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. The heavy duty part of the discussion starts at Reply 8.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

The part of the PMQ website that contains the Recipe Bank was back on line tonight, so I was able to find the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. It is at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. As you will note, the instructions do not specify particular dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes. Those decisions are left to the pizza operator based on their particular operating situation and the consumer markets they will be addressing. Also, some operators do not use any oil or any sugar. Some use both oil and sugar and change their quantities (percents) to fit their particular needs and purposes. Some also change the yeast quantity, and select a hydration value (within the 58-65% range) that works best with the flours they have available to them. As a result of all of these variations, there are many possible versions of the basic Lehmann dough formulation. This thread evolved to explore many of the possible variations of the Lehmann recipe. I don't know if you spotted it from your reading, but I even created a "Roadmap" to keep track of my Lehmann experiments. It is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193. Other members have come up with their own variations and versions.

Peter

[Tbombs34]

I have sort of an interesting story on the resiliency of Lehmann dough. A few days back I made a couple 2 day balls, no sugar, and left it for all of 2 days in fridge. They then sat out for about 3 hrs dusted. One was great, my second tore. First tear in 20 something pizzas. I tried to fix it but it was hopeless. I then re-kneaded a few times and it was of course an unresponsive rubber ball. I did this with the intent of freezing it for later, maybe roll it out for a boli or some knots. No care taken in freezing it whatsoever, saran and foil in a tight tight ball.

After being in the freezer for a few days I decided to try it as a pizza again. Put the frozen ball in oiled container and put in fridge overnight to thaw. Today it sat out in container for 90 mins. I was shocked to see any signs of life, but I did. Then I placed it into 1 minute heated (85 degree) oven for about 10 mins, dusted and covered on board, for a final boost. Then back at room temp, still covered, for 90 mins as oven heated. I was really shocked how it bounced back. I've seen many instanced where dough is prepared and frozen right away before counter rest, like Peter did below, but I'd not seen success stories when freezing after room temp rise.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg62457.html#msg62457

I figured once you did the final rise that then stretching it, re-balling, freezing it, thawing, re-rising, then stretching again would surely create a disaster. Maybe this is frequently done and I'm shocked over nothing, if so sorry. :-) I actually figured it would be unresponsive and never get to stretching point. Judge for yourself, it was like nothing ever happened. No lack of bubbles in the skin as you can see.

(And yes that is crumbled sausage for a change of pace. I know this defies all my NY bias cut ways, but it was really good!)

NY Pizzastriver

How did you form the skin so as to not pop all of those great bubbles??