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[NY pizzastriver]

NY Pizzastriver

How did you form the skin so as to not pop all of those great bubbles?? 

Ah, sorry for delay, just saw this. To answer the q, carefully. Gentle over fist stretching, then lay down on peel and stretch rim manually. (That is to hold down rim about 2 inches in and pull rim away from center of pie, then repeat all the way around) When dough is a long ferment, or a high hydration, I can't toss it in the air so easily. You also have to watch the 'paper thin middle, thick rim' syndrome, hence the oh so important 2nd step. Hope this helped.

Peace 2 u all

[Pete-zza]

Lately, I have been experimenting with long, room-temperature fermented pizza doughs that contain no commercial yeast or even natural starter cultures/preferments. The only yeast is wild yeast that finds its way into the dough. As part of this series of experiments, I decided recently to use a modified version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation and adapt it to a long, room temperature fermentation. In the latest experiment, I made the Lehmann dough in the standard manner but without the usual dry yeast. As a subsidiary experiment, I also used the Classic Ovaltine Malt as a source of sugar for the fermentation process. The details of the experiments, including the dough formulation I used and the results I achieved, can be seen at Reply 121 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg79287.html#msg79287. A representative photo of the pizza I made can also be seen in the photo below. I believe the results confirm the broad utility of the Lehmann dough formulation.

Peter

[the blind meat cutter]

you did get a 5 pound block of cheese. I wrap my cheese in plastic film and when I use it I trim slices off from all around it. Do you have any better ways of storing cheese. I am really learning a lot and enjoying this forum

I concur with Crusty on the Grande cheese.  I recently experimented with some other whole milk mozzarella cheeses and it wasn't even close.  I went back to Grande about a week ago (bought a 5 lb. block) and the taste difference is considerable.  My family has also provided the same feedback.
Friz

[UnConundrum]

If I have a large block, I cut it down into smaller blocks and then package the smaller blocks with a vacuum machine (like a FoodSaver by Tilia).  It really extends the life of the cheese that has been repacked.

[NY pizzastriver]

Peter, that pie above looks fantastic! Do you think what you cooked recently in the kitchen has any bearing on what is "caught"? What if you recently cleaned the floors with bleach? I know these sound like sarcastic questions, but I'm really serious.

I am trying a new twist on the Lehmann pie, just made the dough today, results soon. Here's the protocol so far. Using the thinner style for a 12"
536g KABF
337g cold water
.75tsp yeast
10g sea salt
10g sugar as one or two pies will go 72 hrs.

Three 12" pies.

Water and salt, mixed well. Sifted flour and yeast. Added 240 g flour and sugar, whisked. Thin batter, let sit for 5 mins room temp. Then placed covered in a warm 80 degree oven for 10 mins, a few small bubbles showed up. Added another 100 g flour, whisked heavily. Pic below at this stage. rested another 15 mins. Added all but 20 g flour for board at  kneading stage, metal spoon, mixed heavily. Kneaded with remaining flour on board for 5-6 mins. No oil was added to mixture, instead I oiled hands at this point to add a little oil. Just enough to make it smoother. Oiled bowl, rest 10 mins. Kneaded another 3 mins or so, back in bowl for another 15. Divided, shaped, oiled balls into container. In essence it's a twist using a warmish rise and many rests. I am anxious to see how these come out.

After breaking many plastic mixing bowls I have now gone to the black buckets found at the dollar store, best mixing bowl out there! On note of mixers, as I said before, I am convinced that hand kneading is why I get the bubbles I get. I even made a video to share with those who care to see my "smack, stretch and fold" method. It's a somewhat violent method, lol, but it works every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJiUC3E18p4
Shot with cell phone, but you get the idea.

[Pete-zza]

Do you think what you cooked recently in the kitchen has any bearing on what is "caught"? What if you recently cleaned the floors with bleach? I know these sound like sarcastic questions, but I'm really serious.

Jim,

For some reason, wild yeast seems to thrive in my kitchen. However, I have no idea as to where the wild yeast came from that allowed the dough to rise without adding any commercial yeast. It could have been from the air and the flour itself. I covered the dough container for the duration of its fermentation. Marc (widespreadpizza), from whom I got the idea to make the Lehmann dough your mentioned, had a similar experience where he lives in New Hampshire but using his own dough recipe. I am waiting for it to get much cooler here in Texas before I repeat the experiment but with a much cooler kitchen.

Looking at your recipe, are you using IDY or ADY? You were pretty aggressive with your kneading, punching and stretching and folding the Lehmann dough. I hope the NPDAA (National Pizza Dough Abuse Association) does not see your YouTube video.

Peter

[NY pizzastriver]

Lol, yes well its a lower hydration dough than some, so it aids in the stretching.

IDY, my days of activating in warm water are long gone. I think I know what you're going to say, the formula says .25tsp of ADY, I'm actually just under .75tsp to compensate. .70 I'd say.

[NY pizzastriver]

Great pies! Here's the 3rd one, 80 hrs in. I stretched it even thinner, to about 13.5". This is as big as the stone the short way as you can see from flat side. Amazing rim rise, soft subtle texture, floppy and melted in your mouth. I really seem to prefer this dough at the 3 day mark with the 2% sugar, makes it a lot softer and nicer somehow.

[NY pizzastriver]

Hey Peter! How ya been, hope all is well. I think in the long run I have found this formula to the better than the thinner one I tried. The below is for a 12" using ADY, the old days. Can you shoot info into the calculator with this thickness, as I can't make it work right, for a single 15" pie using IDY? My new 15x 20 x 3/4 stone is on the way. 

Flour (100%): 208.54 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (63%):131.38 g  |  4.63 oz | 0.29 lbs
ADY (0.532%):1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):3.65 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Total (166.282%)346.76 g | 12.23 oz | 0.76 lbs | TF = 0.10815

Thanks a million
J

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

Just looking at the numbers, I believe that I used a nominal thickness factor of 0.105 and a bowl residue compensation of 3% since, at the time, you did not have a stand mixer and were kneading your doughs entirely by hand. If I am wrong on this, please let me know. But, if I am right, this is a dough formulation for three dough balls for three 15" pizzas based on using IDY instead of ADY, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.40%): Salt (1.75%): Olive Oil (1%): Total (166.15%): Single Ball:

964.05 g  |  34.01 oz | 2.13 lbs 607.35 g  |  21.42 oz | 1.34 lbs 3.86 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp 16.87 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp 9.64 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.14 tsp | 0.71 tbsp 1601.78 g | 56.5 oz | 3.53 lbs | TF = 0.106575 533.93 g | 18.83 oz | 1.18 lbs

Note: For three dough balls for three 15" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That is the standard number I use for a stand mixer application.

You might want to play around with the dough calculator to get a better feel for it. BTW, you can see how to do conversions of the different forms of yeast from the table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm.

Peter

[NY pizzastriver]

Excellent, thanks mate!

[NY pizzastriver]

First 15" Pie!

So it slid on the peel fine until I dressed it, then it was  as if I glued it down. Based on that, final measurement was 14 7/8" x 13 3/4". But close enough. Nice one, I wanted to try the thicker 1st, next back to the thins.

[NY pizzastriver]

100 Hour Cold Rise, No Sugar Added

So the general rule of thumb on the Lehmann formula is 2 days tops or add sugar to go 3, maybe 4. I have always followed this rule like a good young lad. Well today I took my silver hammer and smashed the rule to bits. This was a batch I made 4 days ago, the first one above clocking in at 525 grams. Good pie. The other ball sat, forgotten and alone, in the back of the fridge. I opened it today and the boozy smell was abundant. To make it thinner I chopped 88 grams off and threw it out. It sat out for about 3.5 hrs, I was skeptical if I'd see a crust bubble but I let the oven heat for about 2 hrs and hoped for the best. It was hard to get off the floured board, harder to stretch, but it had bubbles. To help promote browning, as I had concerns, I sporadically brushed the rim with garlic and basil infused evoo that I had made 2 weeks back, a little parm dusting on rim as well.

The results, it rose great! Taste was amazing, light and sourdough-like with nice chew, and the garlic rim was beautiful. So in the cold dark hallows of the icebox rear the yeast lived on sugar free. There's one for the science majors here, or at the think tank, 'cuz I sure can't explain it.  ...but really 




 

[Pete-zza]

Jim,

The Lehmann "2-3 day rule" on sugar is a general one and, as such, is a pretty good rule for pizza operators who want certainty in their dough recipes and do not want to tinker or experiment with them once they settle on a version that works best for them. We, on the other hand, as home pizza makers, have the luxury of tinkering with dough formulations and methods in ways that professionals would never consider. That is how several members have made doughs that have lasted for many, many days, and even weeks, and in some cases with no sugar in the dough at all and with good end results, including excellent crust color and flavor. The longest window of cold fermentation that Tom Lehmann ever or saw or heard of, either in a laboratory setting or in the field, was seven days, and even then the dough left much to be desired according to Tom, as he noted in response to a question from a poster at the PMQ Think Tank at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewtopic.php?p=26961#26961.

Peter

[NY pizzastriver]

Peter, well I see no matter what I do it's never gonna impress you. 

Here I thought I was breaking all the rules and creating something unheard of, but noooooo, so FINE!

Trust be told is was a little too chewy... as Tom said in your link. I am trying something interesting that I started today, maybe you'll find that more interesting, lol.

More soon! (on a different thread and everything)

[BrickStoneOven]

Cool video, Jim.

But I think you need a landscaper first before you employ an entire regiment for kneading purposes! 

Btw, here's a pic of my backyard...

You have to be greek.

[Trogdor33]

You have to be greek.

Actually, that's a picture of Hearst Castle in California, it's just greek architecture.

[haybot]

Hey, quick question:
 
I did a batch of dough yesterday for tomorrows use and my scale is kind of bad when it comes to measuring minor amounts like with the yeast. I got the feeling that i maybe put in too much. I wanted to use 2g on 720g of flour (0,3%). I also added a bit of honey. This morning the dough popped the container open in the fridge because it grew quite large. I then re kneaded it and put it back in (though i should look into a larger container. Should i be concerned about it being over fermented tomorrow? Or is 48h in the fridge ok for a dough with a little more yeast?

[Pete-zza]

haybot,

Without knowing how much yeast you actually used it is hard to say but I think you may be OK. I usually advise that people use the volume measurements for ingredients like yeast that are used in small quantities rather than trying to weigh them on most scales.

Peter

[Trogdor33]

Haybot,

Another important factor is how much salt is in your formula. Salt levels that are too low will also give you a dough that rises too fast.

Whenever I have had this happen, I just punch it down and give it a nice long room temp warm up before stretching and it turns out fine. If you post your formula, we can be of more help.

-Joe