Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 493542 times)

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Offline friz78

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2005, 12:02:08 PM »
Beautiful.  Absolutely beautiful.  Crusty, you got it goin' my man!!


Offline wvpizzaman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #121 on: March 06, 2005, 01:16:40 PM »
My best effort at  NY Style Street Pie.....16 inches....Stanislaus full red pizza sauce, Grande 100% whole milk mozz, Penzey's Turkish Oregano.....cooked on stone that was preheated to 550 for 1.5 hours.....it
was great!



Crusty, awesome work my friend! 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 01:41:12 PM by wvpizzaman »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #122 on: March 06, 2005, 04:08:40 PM »
Crusty,

Kudos on a job well done :).

In an earlier effort, you used Grande but later switched to Sargento, which you indicate browns more. Will that cause you to go back to Grande?

Also, I wondered whether you experienced any problems with dough tearing, as you did recently when you made 5 Lehmann NY style dough balls at about the same time? Or if you determined the cause of tearing?

Peter

Offline Crusty

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2005, 05:28:42 PM »
Pete-zza, for NY Style Street Pizza I will use Grande exclusively.  Grande performs to perfection and tastes great.  My first experience with Grande seemed too salty.  I ordered from Vern's(great folks), received the package and used it soon thereafter.  Perhaps the aging was a factor but it was soft and too salty.  After aging in the refirgerator and freezer it was much better regarding the saltiness and firmness but always on target regarding performance.  I will always use Grande 100% whole milk to make NY Style Street pies.  (my next venture is Papa Del's....any thoughts on recipe, steps etc..??)

Last night I made 6 pies and after experiencing tearing a few times (in previous attempts) I thought I should pull the dough from the cooler in phases.  All I can say is that last night it worked.  I pulled 2 out 1.5 hours ahead of bake time and two more 30 minutes later etc.  The ambient conditions were 74F/40%H.

Also, for the first time I tried a puff of air under the dough before going into the oven.  This worked great.

Regards,

Anthony

Offline friz78

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2005, 06:33:33 PM »
I concur with Crusty on the Grande cheese.  I recently experimented with some other whole milk mozzarella cheeses and it wasn't even close.  I went back to Grande about a week ago (bought a 5 lb. block) and the taste difference is considerable.  My family has also provided the same feedback.
Friz

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #125 on: March 07, 2005, 02:03:30 PM »
Cheesy,

Welcome to the forum.

If you are referring to the Lehmann NY style dough, the amount of salt is that which Tom Lehmann specifies in his basic recipe. The baker's percent for salt in his recipe is 1.75%, which is pretty much near the middle of the range that Lehmann typically uses as a benchmark for salt (around 1.5-2.5%). In adapting the Lehmann recipe for home use I did not change the baker's percent for salt inasmuch as I was trying to stay within the parameters of his recipe.

There's no reason why you can't try a smaller amount of salt if you wish, and you should feel free to experiment with the salt levels to meet your personal needs.

Peter

Offline JAG

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #126 on: March 08, 2005, 11:21:49 AM »
To All,

Some or everyone may already know this but I just found out.

I was talking to a Grande rep. at the NAPICS show in Columbus and was asking him about overbrowning of cheeses. He stated that their cheese under normal baking conditions will not overbrown like the competitors cheeses. He claimed that other cheese mfg's add a non clumping agent to their shredded cheese which probably causes the overbrowning and there is nothing added to Grande cheese to prevent clumping therefore allowing their cheese to bake properly and not brown.

Also, at the NAPICS show there was a full blown test kitchen set up and I got to spend about a day with Tom Lehmann and Big Dave Ostrander making dough and baking pizzas. Unfortunately it was not a one on one session since the kitchen was open to attendees, but never the less a true learning experience.

JG
 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #127 on: March 08, 2005, 12:08:52 PM »
JG,

Thanks for sharing your experience at the Lehmann/Big Dave pizza making session. I realize that they would be using professional mixers, etc., but did you learn anything that would help us as home pizza makers? Like amount of kneading required, what the dough balls should look like, fermentation/retardation. etc.?

Peter

Offline JAG

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #128 on: March 08, 2005, 02:11:32 PM »
All,

             Dave and Tom used Dave's "old faithful" for their dough making. Dave's % were slightly different than those posted back in Nov. but not by much. Dave's method for dough making is basically what I've seen here. Use water at temp to achieve 80-85 deg. finished dough, then mix salt and sugar with water with a wisk, just to get the water circulating. while this is blending weigh out yeast and add yeast directly to flour in mixing bowl, add water mixture to flour/yeast and begin mixing. Tom suggested to use low setting due to the density of the dough. The dough was mixed for about two minutes then the olive oil was added. Tom suggested a total mix time of ten minutes max, so as to not over work the dough.  After ten minutes the dough was removed and balled up, oiled (olive) and placed on cookie sheets and sealed with large food grade bags,  acquired from GFS(a sponsor of the kitchen supplies).
             The look and feel of the dough should be soft and supple like a babys bottom yet somewhat tacky to the touch.
             The retardation period ranged from 24-72 hours. Fermentation increases over time to what I assume to be 36 hrs. and then after this there is a degredation of the fermentation process leading to a 'blown dough" which was explained as yeast death after ~72 hrs. (dead yeast-bad dough)

This dough was very pliable and easy to toss and/or stretch as Joe Carlucci (sp) demonstrated in an impromptu tossing demo.
I did ask Tom if there was any recipe modifications that could be made to produce a coal fired crust from a home oven. The answer was disappointing but expected, "no" the very high temps of of the coal ovens are needed to produce that style of crust :'(

These are the basics, which they were probably trying to adhere to for the general audience but very informative anyway.

Not to get off on a tangent but the question of deck/conveyor finished crust was brought up. If the conveyor is properly set up there is no discernable difference between the two ovens finished crusts. Both Tom and Dave sat down at a different event and did a blind taste/texture test, and both commented they could not tell a difference in the two styles of ovens

On a side note, I would like to say that these to GENTLEMEN were two of the most friendly and helpful people I have ever met!!!!!

I will post Dave's recipe asap, unfortunately I don't have it handy.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2005, 05:30:45 PM »
One of the things that has been on my "pizza to do" list for some time has been to make a par-baked (aka pre-baked) crust based on Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe. I realize that making a par-baked crust is a step down in quality from a freshly made one, but there are times when it might be useful nonetheless to make a few par-baked crusts in advance to have them at the ready when the appropriate occasions arise. Maybe it's a party where there is a need to make several pizzas but not the time to do all the advanced prep work and make them in real time. Or maybe it's to make a fairly decent pizza for the kids and their friends without having to order out. Or maybe you are just too tired to make a pizza from scratch.

With the above thoughts in mind, I did a little bit of homework on par-baked crusts. What was particularly helpful was Tom Lehmann's own writings on the subject. Armed with that information, I decided to use a scaled-down version of Tom's NY style dough recipe for my experiment in par-baking a crust. For the specific recipe, I used fellow member Crusty's table (posted elsewhere on this thread) for a 16-inch pizza skin. For purposes of recapitulation, the recipe I used was as follows:

Flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten), 12.03 oz. (about 2 3/4 c. plus 1 T.)
Water (63%), 7.63 oz. (between 7/8 and 1 c.)
Salt, 0.21 oz. (a bit over 1 t.)
Oil, 0.12 oz. (a bit over 3/4 t.)
IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.03 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Dough ball weight = about 20 oz.
TF = 0.10

The processing of the dough was pretty straightforward: In the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with a dough hook, add the salt to the water (temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F), and stir or whisk until the salt is dissolved. Then combine the flour and the IDY and gradually add to the bowl while the mixer is operating at low or stir speed. If necessary, use a spatula to scrape down the sides of the bowl so that the flour is directed into the path of the dough hook. When the bulk of the flour has been taken up into the dough ball, about 2 minutes, add the oil and continue to knead, at low speed, for about another 2 minutes. Increase the mixer speed to medium and continue kneading the dough for about 6-7 minutes, or until the dough is smooth and elastic without any tears on the outer surface, and not wet or sticky but rather tacky. Remove the dough ball from the mixer bowl and knead by hand for about a minute to shape the dough into a smooth round ball. Place the dough ball in a suitable container (e.g., a plastic storage bag or bowl), and place into the refrigerator.

Tom Lehmann recommends that a dough intended to be make into a par-baked crust be refrigerated for around 48 hours. The underlying purpose of the long retardation is to minimize the possibility of bubbles forming in the dough during baking. So I did as Tom advises. When I removed the dough from the refrigerator after the 48-hour time period, I let it warm up at room temperature for about 2 hours, or until the temperature of the dough had risen to around 57 degrees F. Tom Lehmann recommends that a skin to be par-baked be baked using a pizza screen or disk (in my case, a 16-inch screen), at an oven temperature of around 400 degrees F, for about 4-5 minutes, or until the dough sets up and is just starting to turn light brown. John Correll, an expert on pizza operations, recommends that the crust be removed from the oven just before that point. I flipped a coin and John won. As the crust was par-baking, I watched it very carefully to see if any bubbles were forming, particularly since I did not dock the dough in advance (as commercial operators do). And a few bubbles did form. I just opened the oven door and punctured the bubbles with a metal skewer. No harm done.

The first photo below shows the crust after it came out of the oven. To cool the par-baked crust I flipped it oven onto a wire rack. Once it had cooled, I wrapped it completely with plastic wrap and put it into the refrigerator. Once in the refrigerator, the par-baked crust should last for about 5 days. Beyond that, mold may set in. The par-baked crust can also be frozen, either alone or with toppings, although it is generally not a good idea to load it up with toppings, such as vegetables, that can lead to a soggy mess during baking (although sauteeing the vegetables helps alleviate this problem some). The crust can also be fully dressed and refrigerated (unfrozen), subject to the limitations mentioned above. Since this was my first experience in making a par-baked crust, I opted for simply refrigerating the par-baked crust and dressing and baking it at a later time.

After 4 days in the refrigerator, I removed the par-baked crust and set it at room temperature, still covered in the plastic wrap (to keep the crust from drying out), while the oven came up to temperature for baking the dressed crust, about 450 degrees F. I chose to bake the dressed pizza on a pizza stone, which I placed at the middle rack level of my oven. When I was ready to bake, I removed the plastic wrap from the par-baked crust, lightly oiled the surface of the crust with olive oil, and added the rest of the ingredients (tomato sauce, cheese and pepperoni). I baked the pizza on the stone for about 7-8 minutes, at which time I turned on the broiler and let the pizza bake for another minute or two under the broiler until the crust had taken on a bit more color. (Alternatively, the pizza can be completely baked on a pizza screen or disk, i.e., without using the stone.) The second photo shows the pizza once it was removed from the oven. The final photo shows a typical slice.

It should come as no surprise that the finished pizza was not quite as good as one made from a fresh dough in real time. However, it was still good, and likely to be well received by those who sample it. The crust was chewy with a bit of crunch at the rim, but the rim wasn't nearly as open and airy as a freshly made crust that has been allowed to bake at very high heat. A typical slice also didn't quite have the "drooping tip" that is characteristic of a NY slice, but that was to be expected since the par-baked crust was already firm and fully set by the time it was dressed to finish baking and no amount of additional baking was about to change that.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 01:08:01 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #130 on: April 06, 2005, 02:37:00 PM »
Last night, I participated in a PMQ online chat in which Tom Lehmann offered to answer questions about dough, and frozen pizzas and doughs in particular. I participated because one of the things I have been meaning to do for some time is to make a frozen version of the Lehmann NY style dough--for those occasions where it may come in handy to have a few spare dough balls on hand. I had already read a considerable amount of Tom's writings on this topic, and reported on the subject on several occasions on this forum myself, but most of what he has written has been for professionals, such as commissaries that make frozen dough balls for use by pizza operators who do not want to make their own dough balls. And those commissaries have all the latest equipment for freezing dough balls quickly (which is important to minimizing damage to the yeast), using either flash freezing that gets down below -25 degrees F, and maybe even lower when cryogenic freezing techniques are used.

The basic question I posed to Tom was what I should pay close attention to if I were to experiment with making frozen dough in a home setting. I intentionally left my question open ended so that I wouldn't bias the response. Tom's answer was that I should forget about trying to make frozen dough at home, saying that it was hard enough just to make ice cubes in a home freezer, never mind trying to freeze one pound balls of dough. His advice was to freeze the crust by itself, then top it, freeze it again, and then wrap. Doing this, he added, the pizza would last for about 2 weeks. He also made a point to mention that I should go easy on the veggies as they do not freeze well in the home freezer, and that they get all soft and mushy when the pizza is baked.

Interestingly, there was also some discussion on efforts being undertaken by the industry to come up with high-moisture vegetables for frozen pizzas in which part of the moisture has been removed from the vegetables without damaging their cellular structures, using freeze drying techniques that should lead to less wetness and mushyness on the pizzas. In due course, I think we can expect to hear a lot more about this and possibly even start to look for sources ourselves for our own home-made frozen pizzas. One of the biggest concerns among the pizza chains and mom and pop pizza operators alike is the progress that the frozen pizza industry has made in recent years in coming up with pizzas, like the DiGiorno frozen pizzas and the new hearth-style "brick oven" frozen pizzas, that are closing in on the quality of freshly baked pizzas, and are likely to close the gap even further with time since the big players, like DiGiorno's, are owned by well-financed corporate parents with big R&D budgets. Trying to improve the quality of toppings for frozen pizzas, such as reduced-moisture vegetables, is just one step in this direction.

As for frozen doughs, I plan at some point to give it a serious try, using Tom Lehmann's basic NY style dough recipe and some modified version of his instructions on how to make frozen doughs.  After all, we have been able to convert his industrial-sized NY style dough recipe to home-sized recipes and make his pizzas with good results, all without the benefit of all the fancy gear that the industry uses. I'm hopeful that we may also be able to make decent frozen dough versions at home using the same degree of determination. Some of our members (Friz, bortz and Ian come to mind) have already indicated efforts and progress along these lines, and I invite others to experiment also with frozen versions of the Lehmann dough and to report back to us as objectively as possible on their results and how they specifically achieved them so that our members can benefit from their experiences.

Peter 

Offline duckjob

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #131 on: April 06, 2005, 03:49:55 PM »
I'll do a couple experimental pizzas in the next week or two. My experimentation with my BBQ didn't go that well, and I think i'm going to hold off on continuing that until I break down and buy an infared thermometer. My family would definately like the ability to take one of my pizzas out of the freezer and cook it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #132 on: April 06, 2005, 08:56:57 PM »
From time to time, fellow member pftaylor has asked me to consider using a starter with the Lehmann NY style dough to see if it will improve the flavor of the finished crust, as it has apparently been done with his crust based on the Raquel recipe. Also, recently, fellow member PizzaSuperFreak has been bemoaning the lack of flavor in the Lehmann crust even though he seems otherwise to be pleased with it. I have also wondered aloud on more than one occasion on this forum whether the use of a starter might be beneficial to a Lehmann NY style dough, especially a non-retarded version, even though Tom Lehmann has not ever suggested doing same with his recipe, to the best of my knowledge. So, starting late last night, I decided to put the matter to the test.

For purposes of the experiment, I decided to make a room-temperature dough with a long overnight and daytime rise for a 13-inch “test” pizza. Using the mathematical approaches I have described several times before, I calculated that I would need a dough ball of between 13-14 oz., including the starter. The recipe and ingredients and amounts I settled upon were as follows:

Flour (KASL high-gluten flour), 8.10 oz. (about 1 3/4 c. plus 5 t.)
Water (temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temp. of around 80 degrees F), 5.05 oz. (about 5/8 c.)
Salt, 0.12 oz. (5/8 t.)
Olive oil, 0.08 oz. (1/2 t.)
IDY, 0.004 oz. (a pinch between the thumb and forefinger)
Starter (natural Caputo 00 starter), 0.75 oz. (about 1 1/2 T.)
TF = 0.105

A few things will be noted from the formulation stated above. One is the extremely small amount of IDY, and second is the use of the Caputo 00 natural starter. The Caputo 00 starter was selected only because that is the only starter that I have actively working at the moment. However, I’m fairly confident that other starters will work also. The small amount of yeast was to be sure that the dough would ferment in the event the Caputo 00 starter, which had only been refreshed for a short while, failed to contribute any significant leavening power to the dough. I also wanted to test whether the commercial yeast would in any way negate the flavor-enhancing effects of the natural starter, which has been my experience when using both (as witnessed by my experiments at the Caputo 00 thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.0.html). Since 0.004 oz. of IDY represents 1/25 of a teaspoon, which is not measurable with anything at my disposal, I simply took a very small pinch between my thumb and forefinger. To be sure that such a small amount of yeast would not get trapped in a small corner of the dough, I combined it with the flour and whisked and stirred it thoroughly into the flour until it was uniformly dispersed.

The dough itself was prepared in a fairly standard manner. The salt was dissolved in the water, the flour/IDY mixture was gradually added along with the starter and mixed at “Stir”speed for about 2 minutes, the olive oil was added and kneaded into the dough for about another 2 minutes, the dough was then kneaded at the number 2 setting for about another 2 minutes, and the finished dough was kneaded by hand for about another 30 seconds to form a nice, smooth round ball. At the end of this process, the dough was very soft and smooth. It weighed a bit over 14 oz. and had a finished dough temperature of 80.7 degrees F. I placed the dough, without oiling it, into a plastic storage bag, and placed the bag on my kitchen countertop late last night. Very quickly, I noticed that the dough was starting to spread. By morning, it was like a pancake.

The first two photos below show (maybe not too clearly) how the dough had spread. These photos are noteworthy in their own respect, since they shows a novel technique I used to manage the dough while it sat on my countertop. To contain the dough, I put it into a large freezer storage bag equipped with a slider used to close the storage bag. I moved the slider to almost its fully closed position and poked a straw into the bag just in front of the slider. As I blew into the straw to inflate the bag, I moved the slider to its fully closed position just as I pulled the straw out. This created a balloon-like proofing bag for the dough, and made it unnecessary to oil it to keep a crust from forming. I could also see at all times what was happening to the dough. The bag I used is a Hefty One-Zip bag. One of the nice features of this storage bag is that it is inexpensive. It can also be washed and reused, and can be used for retarded doughs also, if so desired.

After an initial rise of 12 hours, I examined the dough and saw that it was very soft and moist. It also had the characteristic odor of sourdough. I removed the dough from the bag and reballed it, using just a very small amount of bench flour to be able to work with it. It was clearly still elastic at this point, so I returned it to the storage bag and placed it back on my kitchen countertop. It remained there for about another 6 hours, during which time it rose by about double and clearly exhibited a bubbling activity. Since the dough was still soft and moist, I used a small amount of bench flour to dust the dough ball so that I could stretch it out to around 13 inches. It was very extensible, maybe even a little too extensible. But I was able to easily shape it into a 13-inch skin. After I had dressed the pizza (see the third photo), it was baked directly on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked for about 5 minutes on the stone, whereupon it was placed for about a minute or two under the broiler, which I had turned on after about 4 minutes into the baking process. The final two photos show the finished pizza and a typical slice.

The pizza was quite good. The crust was fairly consistent with the NY style of crust in that it was chewy in the center part and open and airy at the rim, as I expected it might be from using a high hydration percent (around 63%). The crust also had more flavor than a typical Lehmann crust although it was not as intense and potent as the crusts I made recently using the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 starter. The crust also didn’t brown as much as the typical Lehmann crust, which suggests that the overall 18-hour fermentation/ripening period may have been too long. One thing I tried that improved the taste and crust coloration of the pizza was to return it to the oven about 10 minutes after it was finished baking. This was a tip offered up recently by quido (John) and it worked quite well in that it made the crust and the rim crunchier, as I prefer it. The oven was off when I did this but there was sufficient remnant heat in the stone to brown up the crust fairly quickly. In this respect, it is like the technique used by Friz when he removes the entire stone from the oven with the baked pizza still on it.

But what is most important is what I learned from the experiment. I learned that it possible to make a room-temperature Lehmann NY style dough and enhance its flavor profile by using a starter. But I also think that there is more work to be done to improve the crust even further. A few possibilities for improving the crust come to mind. First is to use the same recipe but reduce the overall fermentation/ripening time. Second, is to use only a starter, without any commercial yeast, mainly to see if the flavor profile is improved, as was the case when I made the Caputo crusts using only the Caputo natural 00 starter. On this score, I invite pftaylor to do the same with his Raquel dough to see if the flavor is enhanced. Who knows? Maybe he will end up with Raquel on Steroids. Third is to consider Cheesy’s suggestion as reported in another thread to lower the hydration a bit, which can be easily accomplished by simply using a bit less water. At this point, I’m inclined to go with only the natural starter (i.e., no commercial yeast) and a reduced hydration level.

C'mon, Igor, back to the laboratory while it's still dark.

Peter





Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #133 on: April 06, 2005, 09:50:31 PM »
Pete-zza,
You changed the rules of the game again.

Just as I was getting satisfied (lazy) at my station in life with Raquel you have brought up an irresistable aspect of the game worthy of inspection. Here's my plan, I will unleash the Viking hoard (starter out of fridge & refreshed) tonight so that by tomorrow afternoon it will be in an angry mood. Perfect for KASL pillaging. I'll start the mixing process without the aid of a cheat (commercial yeast) and keep everything else the same.

I'll report back Friday night. I have a date with Raquel.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 09:08:10 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #134 on: April 07, 2005, 08:33:56 AM »
pft,

One of the things I want to remind you of is that when I used the starter with the Lehmann dough, the dough was fermented the entire time at room temperature, not in the refrigerator. The same was also true when I made the Caputo 00 doughs using the natural Caputo 00 starter. When I used to make sourdough breads using only a natural starter, there was usually a fermentation period at room temperature of several hours, an autolyse or two, and then a period of overnight retardation in the refrigerator, followed by a final rise. The amount of starter was around 2/3 c. for 17 oz. of flour.

I mention all of the above since I don't have a good feel how your dough will turn out if you use just a natural starter and go directly to retardation. I don't ever recall having tried that. So, unless you let the dough rise before retardation, it may take longer for the dough to become workable once it comes out of the refrigerator. The natural yeast will still be alive but sleepy. In any event, I think it would be useful to know one way or another whether a dough based on a starter only is enough for a dough that goes into the refrigerator right after kneading. Your starter seems to be strong, so it would make a good test.

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #135 on: April 07, 2005, 09:16:06 AM »
Pete-zza,
I have no bias as to a particular dough management process. Other than the one I'm used to from a "feel" perspective. But I'm willing to extend.

So, why don't you consider how you would like for experiment to proceed and I'll be glad to accomodate. I can produce two dough balls today so we could vary one from the other based on your recommendation. There are numerous approaches; counter/counter-cold-counter/cold-counter, etc type rises.

Let me know which combination you would like to see and I'll take plenty of pictures.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #136 on: April 07, 2005, 09:49:47 AM »
pft,

I appreciate your willingness to conduct a few experiments with your Raquel recipe, since they may even help improve use of the Lehmann NY style dough. 

I'm a bit hesitant to tell you to modify what appears to have been a great success with your Raquel recipe, but there are a couple of experiments that might teach us something about using starters without supplementation by commercial yeast. One experiment would be to use a starter, such as your Patsy's starter, in your basic Raquel recipe and use your usual preparation techniques from that point forward. A second experiment would be to use the same starter in your Raquel recipe, let the dough rise at room temperature until about doubled in volume (which could take 3-4 hours based on my prior experience making sourdough bread), and then go into the refrigerator for an overnight rise, followed by your usual preparation from that point forward. In both cases, the objective would be to see if using a starter only provides better crust flavor.  It's even quite possible, especially with the second experiment, that the flavor enhancement could be too much--like a potent sourdough flavor. I think these two experiments frame the issue quite nicely, covering opposite ends of the spectrum. Any benefits beyond flavor would be an added plus.

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #137 on: April 07, 2005, 10:34:24 AM »
Pete-zza,
Before I go down a road less traveled, a minor point of clarification. Currently, Raquel calls for two tablespoons of Varasano starter. Should the quantity remain the same or should it be increased?

I'm leaning toward sticking at the current level of starter so that I do not have to adjust any other ingredient quantity.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #138 on: April 07, 2005, 10:53:07 AM »
pft,

My instincts tell me that maybe more starter will be needed, particularly for the room temperature/retardation version (to get a fast enough rise), but why don't you stick with your current levels. You will perhaps discover fairly soon whether your current levels are sufficient.

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #139 on: April 07, 2005, 11:58:58 AM »
Done
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


 

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