Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 498757 times)

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #880 on: September 09, 2010, 08:17:31 PM »
As protocol dictates for what is the traditional Lehmann formula one does not oil the balls themselves before sleeping, just the containers for easy removal. Since we have recently tried so many variations of the dough I thought I'd be bold and try something new, I evoo'd the balls as well, like a ''Glutenboy's'' dough. I also only let it sleep 12 hours, not so uncommon either perhaps, but I was curious to see what the result would be. As you can see no lack of bubbles in dough, no skinning at all as I have seen during warm rise from time to time, and I think it added to a nice texture and flavor. Great crunch and chew all at once.

This was a thin thin version of the pie, newly formatted, don't know thickness factor but it's 10% less across the board than the 'thin' version. Hand mixed 1/2 flour to  batter, rest 20 mins, remaining flour, hand knead 4 mins, rest covered 45 mins, hand knead 2 more mins, ball, oil, sleep.

ps, Welcome to page 45, enjoy your stay!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #881 on: September 09, 2010, 09:25:44 PM »
As protocol dictates for what is the traditional Lehmann formula one does not oil the balls themselves before sleeping, just the containers for easy removal. Since we have recently tried so many variations of the dough I thought I'd be bold and try something new, I evoo'd the balls as well, like a ''Glutenboy's'' dough.

Jim,

Actually, if you look at the original Lehmann NY style dough recipe as given at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/, you will see that the dough balls are brushed with oil and the dough trays are not oiled (mainly to keep the dough balls from sliding). Now, if you were a purist, you would allocate the total formula oil between the oil used in the dough ball and the oil used to brush the dough ball. Member November showed us how to do that at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40109.html#msg40109 (in reply to my post at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40095.html#msg40095). I don't follow that method myself since I don't use much oil to brush a dough ball and I also use a typical measuring spoon, which isn't a particularly accurate measuring tool.

You will also see from the Lehmann formulation I referenced above, it is permissible to use the dough balls after 12 hours of cold fermentation.

I'm glad your pizza turned out well.

Peter

P.S. Welcome to page view 229,529 ;D

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:48:51 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #882 on: September 10, 2010, 09:34:22 AM »
Peter,

Yeah I see, and salad oil at that. I suppose he means olive there, less the vinegar part.  :)

So the truth comes out eh!? Lol. Yeah I learned this as you know based on your methods, but I think it's a good idea for preservation and a bit of added something. I know some brush skin first, so it's sort of like doing that in advance, just to more subtle degree. Some even drizzle evoo over the dressed pie. Also, it makes a great hair deep conditioner too!

Yes good pie, I had to broil at the end as my perhaps too thickly cut mozz. was not behaving, but all in all it wazza gooda one!

Ps. Lol.  :-D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 09:37:02 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #883 on: September 10, 2010, 10:21:14 AM »
Yeah I see, and salad oil at that. I suppose he means olive there, less the vinegar part.  :)

Jim,

I am l pretty sure that Tom Lehmann means soybean oil, which is commonly referred to as salad oil, especially by those who go back many years, like Tom Lehmann, where the salad oil expression was much more popular than today. Today, you are more likely to see the expression "vegetable oil". However, in other writings, Tom mentions using olive oil (such as the lower cost pomace oil version) or a blend of olive oil and canola or similar oil. There are some pizza operators who insist on using extra virgin olive oil or virgin olive oil, despite their higher cost, but most pizza operators who specialize in the NY style use cheaper oils, including soybean oil and blends. 

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #884 on: September 10, 2010, 12:29:18 PM »
Diggit, thanks Peter. I use extra virgin, and yeah it's ridiculous in price, but it's a key in everything I practically cook. You should try my "Evoo rice crispie treats" and my "Evoo Eggs over easy"! Just kidding, oh but wait, I saw this once. In Georgia people fry bacon, leave a pan full of grease, and fry eggs in a pool of grease that covers the yoke completely. Yeah, the south, ummm... nice to be north again! Great peaches though!

 
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #885 on: October 27, 2010, 09:05:47 AM »
I used this Lehmann formula in combination with some Kamut home ground grains and KASL flour to create this pizza.  The formula is at Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956

First I wanted to see if I could successfully grind some Kamut grains without any kind of commercial grinder.  Secondly I wanted to see what the affects the Lehmann formula with lower amounts of yeast would have on the dough, with the combination of flours.   Thirdly I wanted to use a fairly high hydration, because I had no idea of how this Kamut home ground flour would affect the dough.  Fourth I wanted to try and get a lower finished final dough temperature.  My finished dough temperature was 77.6.  I would have liked it to be lower. 

The grinders I try to use were posted at Reply
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12124.msg114845.html#msg114845 They sure werenít the best grinders to use for the Kamut flour, but at least they did grind the flour some.  My arms were tired after I had hand ground the flour.  The hand grinding by a crank on my grinders is harder than I thought they would be, because I never tried to grind grains by hand.  I got the idea to try and grind Kamut flour by boudie (Bert) on his thread about Home Ground Flour at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12124.msg113989.html#msg113989

The weigh of the home ground Kamut flour was 80 grams.  I then added 263 grams of KASL flour to this formula.  This dough was made on Saturday and then left to cold ferment until yesterday, when it was baked at market.  This dough did slowly ferment.

The thing that interested me most about trying to home grind my own flour for this pizza was I didnít get the flour ground up enough.  There still were some partially ground grains in the dough.  I then wondered what would happen when a pizza was baked with this dough.  I kept watching the dough and the partially ground grains didnít dissolve.  Steve opened this dough yesterday and he and I could feel the grains though out the dough.  We both then wondered if the pizza would have a crunch like a granola bar from the partially ground grains.  Much to both of our surprise, the finished pizza came out well and no grains could be detected in the crust.  Somehow they must have gotten baked, while the pizza was in the oven.

The taste of the crust and rim of this pizza was much different than a regular KASL Lehmann dough.  The crust and rim had a somewhat nutty and different taste.  I really did like this different pizza.

I might try this experiment again, using the same formula, either with higher amounts of the Kamut grain ground or Prairie Gold (86) grain ground. 

Pictures of dough, opened skin, dressed pizza, crumb and finished pizza below.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #886 on: October 27, 2010, 09:09:31 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #887 on: October 27, 2010, 09:11:33 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #888 on: October 30, 2010, 08:59:34 PM »
Norma,
I love y...the pizzas you make!
  ;D

Been following this thread and others for a while and really enjoy the info and pics you have shown for your work.They all look great!
 :chef:


-Bill
-Bill

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #889 on: October 30, 2010, 11:43:51 PM »
Norma,
I love y...the pizzas you make!
  ;D

Been following this thread and others for a while and really enjoy the info and pics you have shown for your work.They all look great!
 :chef:


-Bill

Bill,

Thanks for your nice compliments.  :)  The last pizza I posted was just an experiment with Kamut ground grains in the dough.  I did buy some Prairie Gold (86) grains to grind to try in another pizza. Hopefully those grains will work out in a pizza.  This last pizza did have a different taste in the crust.  I really like the Lehmann dough, whether it is with or without a starter.

Norma
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Offline Aldo

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #890 on: November 08, 2010, 12:40:52 AM »
Hi Norma,

I note you post really positive and informative posts -- thanks for all you do.

In the one above, I noted you have a pizza oven.  Do you own a restaurant?  If so, where?  I only make pizza at home, and mostly stuffed pizzas (I'm a relocated Chicago native.)  However, I also do a fair amount of thin crusts for the kids and to get pizzas made quick, so I also find the NY forum pretty informative.

Anyway, I think everyone who saw your latest pictures agrees - yum!  And , as usual, thanks!


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #891 on: November 08, 2010, 02:08:39 AM »
Hi Norma,

I note you post really positive and informative posts -- thanks for all you do.

In the one above, I noted you have a pizza oven.  Do you own a restaurant?  If so, where?  I only make pizza at home, and mostly stuffed pizzas (I'm a relocated Chicago native.)  However, I also do a fair amount of thin crusts for the kids and to get pizzas made quick, so I also find the NY forum pretty informative.

Anyway, I think everyone who saw your latest pictures agrees - yum!  And , as usual, thanks!



Aldo,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) I only own a small pizza stand at our local farmerís market.  It is called Rootís Country Market & Auction, in Manheim, Pa. Rootís is only open one day a week. My husband and I were at this market for many years, before my husband became ill.  We sold Caramel Popcorn and other food items at Rootís. 

When I found out the manager of Rootís was looking for someone to make fresh pizza, I thought I have done so many other things in my life, so why couldnít I make fresh pizza.  Well, I had a lot to learn.  It wasnít as easy as I thought.  Pizzamaking.com has taken me to what I know now.  Since I became a member here, I havenít stopped trying to learn, but I still am on an adventure to try and learn more about all the kinds of pizza members make.  I have made a Chicago stuffed crust and really enjoyed it.  I havenít played around with Chicago style pies very much. 

If you ever want any links to pizzas I have tried, including NY style, just let me know.

These are the links to Rootís Country Market and Auction.  The first one shows the market and if you scroll down in the second link, you can see my small pizza stand.  My stand is called Normaís Pizza

http://www.rootsmarket.com/    http://www.rootsmarket.com/standholders.asp

Norma
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Offline Aldo

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #892 on: November 10, 2010, 12:39:53 AM »
Norma, you're wonderful!  Keep up being exactly who you are!  Next time I make pizza, I'll try to take pictures and tell my story.  I'm not alone in saying it, Norma, you're the best!

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #893 on: November 11, 2010, 10:11:58 PM »
A poster at the PMQ Think Tank recently asked Tom Lehmann how his NY style dough (based on the recipe on this forum) "reacts, on screens, in a conveyor oven". Tom's reply is reproduced below, from his post at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9759#p66780:

Screens do an OK job of baking the N.Y. style crust, but that's about all the credit I can give it. With the screen you get a uniformly brown bottom crust color, like I said, OK, but no trophy. With a correctly configured air impingement oven, baking at the correct temperature, and using one of the Hearth Bake Disks, you get the variability in the bottom crust color as well as some slight charring which contributes flavor and interest to the crust appearance as well as flavor. I.E., the crust is much more like that of a "hearth baked" crust than one baked in an air impingement oven. What it all comes down to is: You pays yer money, and you takes yer pick.
Tom Lehmann/the Dough Doctor


Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #894 on: November 11, 2010, 11:26:24 PM »
I found some of the comments Tom Lehmann made on that same thread about milk used in dough and a softening of the crust if you donít scald your milk interesting.  http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=66644#p66644  When I tried the milk mixture in my other thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg107915.html#msg107915 and now at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg114728.html#msg114728  I have noticed my dough is softer, but didnít find the end results when baking the pizza, had anything to do with bottom crust browning. When doing the experiments on my first thread, I referenced above in the Lehmann dough, I found there was no need to scald the milk after doing a test.  It worked okay not scalded.  Even in the current formula I am trying using the milk kefir the milk in the poolish doesnít need to be scalded.

I also see Tom Lehmann is promoting air impingment ovens, using Hearth Baked Disks.  I never tried using an air impingment oven, but find pizzas baked on a pizza stone or deck oven much more appealing.  I would think you can get a more artisan pizza, baked on either a pizza stone or deck oven.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 12:13:48 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #895 on: November 12, 2010, 08:36:37 AM »
Norma,

As you know, Tom Lehmann is not a fan of eggs or milk in pizza doughs, for several reasons, including potential cross contamination issues (mainly in respect of commercial situations), excessive crust browning, and cost. I can't say that I can recall reading anything about using eggs in a NY style dough but I have read of instances where milk, both fresh and in dry form, have been used in a NY style dough. It is not common by any means, but your many experiments using milk in your Lehmann NY style doughs is evidence of some of the possibilities. However, when Tom talks about using milk in pizza doughs, he is talking about commercial size dough batches where the milk replaces a fairly large amount of the formula water. In those cases, there will usually exist enough lactose to contribute to the color of the final crust. Also, in large amounts, the milk (fresh milk) might require scalding prior to use. When you were conducting some of your milk experiments, including the wadave milk sourdough experiments and the more recent milk kefir experiments, I raised the issue of pre-scalding the milk to eliminate it as an issue, especially since you had/have access to raw milk.

But, even without pre-scalding the milk, I believe your quantities of milk have by and large been on the low side and in the context of preferments or sourdough mixes. In that vein, you might want to read the posts starting at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg47756.html#msg47756 where, among other milk-related matters discussed there, member dms (David) presents his position that if the amount of milk is small there should be no need to pre-scald it before using. In his own case, he only pre-scalds the milk when it represents more than 15% of the flour weight and, I believe that theshhold is with respect to bread dough rather than pizza dough. My recollection is that that is a number that you have not often exceeded although your last milk kefir Lehmann dough was at 15% of the flour weight and your next one will be at almost 25%.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #896 on: November 12, 2010, 09:05:55 AM »
Peter,

I know Tom Lehmann isnít a big fan of using milk in pizza dough, by some posts he made before in relationship to cross-contamination and softening of the dough.  I wonder since Tom Lehmann is talking about commercial size dough batches, just how much milk he means by using fairly large amounts to replace the formula water.

Thanks for referencing the post by dms(David).  I didnít see so far that the protein in the whey of milk inhibits gluten development in pizza dough or bread dough, while doing experiments with my current kefir formula, my past wadave experiment with a Lehmann dough, the modified Ultra-Thin dough, or the Tartine Bread dough with milk kefir.  I also didnít see any reduction in volume in some of my experiments.  dms goes on to state that usually it is not a problem unless there is a large quantity of milk in the recipe.  I guess this current experiment will tell if more milk in the poolish will affect gluten development or volume development in the milk kefir Lehmann dough.  If I ever get to the point of having success with the milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough for market, I know I would need to contact my food inspector to make sure there wouldnít be any issues with me using the milk kefir in the dough. So far I havenít had any health related problems with even drinking the raw milk kefir, before it is even used in the dough.  I donít know if all the friendly bacteria in the milk kefir have something to do with that or not, but I never would have left raw or whole milk out at room temperature before the milk kefir experiments and then even tried to drink it.  I would have been afraid I would have gotten sick.

Norma 
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #897 on: November 12, 2010, 09:19:21 AM »
I also see Tom Lehmann is promoting air impingment ovens, using Hearth Baked Disks.  I never tried using an air impingment oven, but find pizzas baked on a pizza stone or deck oven much more appealing.  I would think you can get a more artisan pizza, baked on either a pizza stone or deck oven.

Norma,

Tom was involved with pizzatools.com/Lloyd in the design of the hearth bake disks, for which he may have been compensated, and he is often quoted by pizzatools/Lloyd in its advertising, so in his public pronouncements he naturally will promote the use of conveyor ovens for making "NY style" pizzas in such ovens. However, apparently those disks don't work equally well in all conveyor ovens, especially the older models and versions. I am sure that at trade shows he uses the ovens that work best with the hearth bake disks, such as the Lincoln Fast Bake impingement conveyor ovens as discussed at http://www.lincolnfp.com/?xhtml=xhtml/lin/us/en/general/product.html&productdata=xhtml/lin/us/en/product/conveyor_fastbake.html&xsl=productdata.xsl&category=0023.

The above said, when I reread Tom's comments as I posted them in Reply 893 a few posts back, it seems to me that Tom is damning conveyor-baked NY style pizzas with faint praise. I think that if he were pressed he would privately tell you that a conveyor oven can't match the results achieved using a good deck oven or, at the least, he would state the conditions (type of oven, finger configuration, dough formulation, temperatures, etc.) under which a conveyor product would come close to a deck oven product. As one can see from the PMQTT posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9175&p=62779&hilit=#p62762, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7801&start=0&hilit=, and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3450&p=18563&hilit=#p18263, there is a wide diversity of opinion on the merits of using conveyor ovens to bake the NY style.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #898 on: November 12, 2010, 10:20:08 AM »
I know Tom Lehmann isnít a big fan of using milk in pizza dough, by some posts he made before in relationship to cross-contamination and softening of the dough.  I wonder since Tom Lehmann is talking about commercial size dough batches, just how much milk he means by using fairly large amounts to replace the formula water.

Norma,

Since Tom is not an advocate of using milk in pizza dough, you aren't going to see him posting dough formulations calling for milk in lieu of some of the formula water. However, since Tom is not the pizza-nazi type, he will help those who choose, for whatever reason, to use milk in some form in their doughs. One of the best threads on the use of milk in pizza dough is the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=407&hilit=#p2027, which I know you have read before, maybe even more than once. In that thread, Tom tries to tackle the question of amount of milk to use in a pizza dough, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=407&hilit=#p21490, where he states that the minimum amount of fresh milk to use to get any real benefit from it is 40% of the flour weight. I have seen higher percentages of milk, but not from Tom that I can recall.

I recently saw a video on the Chicago Vito & Nicks's pizza dough, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/11/the-united-states-of-pizza-illinois-chicago-best-pizza-in-chicago-deep-dish-thin-crust.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedmeaslice+%28Slice%29, where a half gallon of milk is used to make the dough but I could not calculate the percent of milk without knowing the flour bag weight.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #899 on: November 12, 2010, 11:35:04 AM »
Peter,

Yes, I have read that thread at PMQ think tank about using milk in pizza dough, different times.  I know Tom Lehmann tries to help anyone, with making any kinds of doughs they want to try.  I did PM Tom Lehmann about trying the milk kefir in the Lehmann dough.  He answered that using the milk kefir is like a sourdough, but didnít get into much detail.

I find that video of Vito & Nickís interesting and knowing they also use milk in their dough.  Vito & Nickís thin crunchy crust sure looks good to me.  I wonder what I was doing wrong on the Modified Ultra-thin thread that I wasnít getting a good flavor in my crust while using milk.  Somehow in Vito & Nickís they are using milk in their dough to be able to achieve a pizza that turns out well.  I wonder if I will have to explore this more in a thin crust pizza at some time.  Maybe at some point, I will start a new thread about using milk in a thin crust to see what happens.  Seems like Vito & Nickís has been using milk in their dough for a long time.  Sixty pies an hour is a lot of pizzas.  Vito & Nickís even make pizzas with eggs. The eggs and pepperoni sounds and looks good.

Thanks for referencing the video.

Norma
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