Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 488272 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #160 on: May 12, 2005, 11:29:35 PM »
Teresa,

You should by all means experiment with using a shorter fermentation time. When I first used the recipe you followed (and discussed at Reply #134 at this thread), I concluded that the 12 and 8 hour time periods were too long. It's a tricky thing to be able to determine the optimum time periods because high-hydration, low-yeast doughs fermented at room temperature tend to be on the wet side and they behave differently from other doughs by spreading rather than rising in a robust fashion. If I were to try the recipe again today I would most likely omit the IDY, use more preferment, and a shorter overall fermentation period. It may require a couple of test runs to determine how much preferment to use to achieve good results in a reasonable time period, say, 8 hours total. When I last made the Lehmann dough using only the preferment (see Reply #153), I used about 5 T. of the preferment. For a room temperature version, I suspect I would need an amount in inverse proportion to the length of time that I would like to use for fermentation purposes. That is, the shorter the desired fermentation period, the less preferment I would use, and visa versa.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 11:36:33 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #161 on: May 17, 2005, 11:13:45 PM »
Tonight, I made a modified version of the Lehmann NY style dough and pizza that I earlier described at Reply #151. The Lehmann dough version I posted at that time was based on using a natural preferment, an autolyse, and a period of refrigeration of over 40 hours. In tonight's version, I left out the autolyse and used a room temperature (around 75 degrees F) fermentation of around 9 hours. Today's experiment was for the purpose of trying to determine the parameters of a Lehmann room temperature dough using a natural preferment and, in particular, to see if an acceptable dough and pizza can be made during the course of a day--for example, starting the dough in the morning, letting it ferment at room temperature during the day, and baking the pizza in the evening after about 8 hours total elapsed time.

The biggest decision I had to make was how much preferment to use for a fermentation period that would extend out to about 8 hours at a room temperature of around 75 degrees F. Since I had no idea beyond a hunch, I chose to use the same amount of preferment as I had used in making the previous pizza dough as described at Reply #151. That was around 5 tablespoons. I prepared the dough in the usual manner (combining salt with water, gradually adding and mixing in the flour and the preferment, then the olive oil, and kneading everything at stir/1 speed for about 8 minutes.) The dough was put into a large, inflated plastic storage bag and placed on my kitchen countertop. Over the next 3 or 4 hours, the dough had spread out laterally into a large, soft, round disk. I reshaped it at that time into a new ball and returned it to the storage bag for about another 5 hours. Originally, I had intended an overall fermentation period of no more than 8 hours, but interruptions extended that time period to about 9 hours. At the end of the 9-hour period, the dough had expanded upwardly more so than laterally and was extremely soft--so soft, in fact, that I had to just about "pour" the dough out of the storage bag. Next time, I will use a regular bowl. The dough needed a fair amount of bench flour but it handled very easily--if anything, it was too extensible, leading me to believe that the dough may have overfermented a bit. I could lift the dough and stretch it, but I had to be careful so that the dough wouldn't get away from me.

After shaping and stretching the dough out to 16 inches, I placed it on a 16-inch pizza screen and dressed it in a simple tomato and cheese fashion (mainly 6-in-1s, shredded mozzarella cheese, dried oregano, a swirl of olive oil and a bit of Sicilian sea salt). The pizza was baked on the screen until the crust started to turn brown (about 5 minutes), following which I transferred the pizza to a pizza stone on the lowest oven position that had been preheated for about an hour at an oven temperature of around 500-550 degrees F.  The pizza remained on the pizza stone for about 2 minutes, and then was transferred to the upper oven rack to be exposed to about another minute of top browning from the broiler element, which had been turned on about 3 minutes into the baking process.

One of the things I was looking for as the pizza was baking was how much crust browning would take place, inasmuch as I had some suspicions (because of the high extensibility of the dough as mentioned above) that the dough may have overfermented a bit.  As the photos below show, there was less browning than usual, effectively telling me that 9 hours was too long a fermentation period and/or I had used too much preferment. I think it is important to keep in mind that a preferment behaves in much the same manner as a commercial yeast and that using too much of it can produce similar results to using too much of a commercial yeast. The temperature at which the dough ferments will also determine how far out the dough can go before overfermenting. Unfortunately, to balance all these factors requires experimentation.

The finished pizza itself tasted fine. It was soft and chewy and tender with a light, open and airy crumb and with a fair amount of crust flavor. The crust flavor was not as intensive as the previous pizza that was based on a dough that had undergone over 40 hours of refrigeration/retardation, but it was better than a crust based on a dough using commercial yeast. Today's experiment confirms for me that to get flavorful byproducts of fermentation requires time more than anything else. In other words, you can't simply use a lot of preferment and get the same effects of using the same amount in a long retardation. During retardation, the lactobacilli and other flavor-enhancing components in the dough continue to work even though the yeast metabolism is slowed down somewhat.

What today's experiment did teach me, however, is that it is possible to make a same-day Lehmann NY style dough using a preferment without exceeding a total fermentation period of over 8 hours. And it will handle and shape well with very little elasticity (snapback) that is often experienced using a same-day dough based on a high-gluten flour. Were I to repeat today's experiment, I would use either a combination of the same amount of preferment (5 tablespoons) and a shorter fermentation period (say, 5 or 6 hours), or a reduced amount of preferment (say, 2 tablespoons) and the same total fermentation period (8 hours). I think either approach should work reasonably well, but as with any room-temperature dough using a preferment where it is difficult from just looking and poking at the dough to know when it is ready to be shaped, some additional tweaking may be necessary to establish the final parameters that will guarantee consistent, reproducible results. Once these parameters are established, then the process can be replicated with much greater confidence.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 01:44:53 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2005, 04:40:03 PM »
With all the experimenting and discussions going on at this forum about natural preferments and other starters, including in the context of the Lehmann NY style doughs, one of the subjects on which nothing has been said is the keeping, or "lasting", qualities of pizza crusts made from doughs using preferments. This should hardly come as a surprise to anyone since most pizzas are intended to be completely consumed immediately after coming out of the oven and, consequently, "keeping qualities" becomes somewhat of an oxymoron in the context of a pizza crust. But, as we all know, we are sometimes left with a few slices here and there that we put aside to be reheated (or not) and eaten at a later date. The crusts of many of these slices start to degrade within a short time after coming out of the oven, but some actually get worse while awaiting a second chance for immortality.

One of the things that is not generally well understood or appreciated is that natural preferments, because of the large amounts of acids generated when they are used to leaven doughs, increase the keeping qualities of dough-based products like breads and pizza crusts. That is one of the reasons--maybe even the main reason--that naturally leavened artisan breads have a lot longer shelf life than ordinary breads (some rustic German sourdough breads can last for weeks). You may have even noticed that artisan breads are among the few breads that can be safely shipped to someone without fear of spoilage or drying out. But the same chemistry and biology applies to doughs used in the making of pizza crusts. Recently, I have been reheating and eating many of the leftover slices I have been saving from all the naturally leavened Lehmann crusts I have been making in recent weeks--the ones with the nice airy crumbs and rims and chewy texture. What I have been noticing is that the crusts are just as good as the originals. The crusts inside--inside the rims but also in the middle--are still soft and tender, sometimes even a bit flaky. The crusts even stretch and hang on for dear life when you try to tear them apart. And the flavors of fermentation remain intact.

To be sure, there are other ingredients commonly used in doughs that improve the keeping qualities of finished bread products. These include fats (often in the form of oils), sugar (dry or liquid forms), milk products and, if you want to get a bit more esoteric, even lecithin, a soy-based product that is sometimes used in doughs as a fat substitute. Of these, only oil is used in the Lehmann NY style dough recipe, but in an amount too small (1%) to make a dent in the keeping qualities of the crust. You need to get above 5-6% to get that effect. So, I think it is safe to say that what I have been experiencing in the improved keeping qualities of the recent Lehmann crusts is attributable to use of the preferments and little else. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that everyone start using natural preferments just to get a better quality leftover slice. For me, it's just another side benefit that tags along with the enhanced flavor profile that comes from using preferments.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 21, 2005, 09:06:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #163 on: May 21, 2005, 07:25:34 AM »
Pete-zza,
I heartily agree with your assessment regarding preferment enhanced crusts. However, it has been my experience that nothing can save a crust from toppings such as peppers and mushrooms with high water content.

While on the topic of preferment enhanced doughs, based on all your experiments to date, what is your best guess as to the approximate optimum time for a cold fermention when trying to maximize flavor and dough/crust performance (stretching, robustness, charring, etc)? One, two, three, four, five days...?

The background to my question has to do with my experience which indicates a cold rise of two days is better than one but three is not always better than two. Of course, we are both using different preferments, equipment, coolers, techniques and recipes so I would expect the results may be different. However, two days seems to be the repeatable optimum time zone for me.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2005, 07:56:53 AM by pftaylor »
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #164 on: May 21, 2005, 10:24:48 AM »
pft,

I agree that using toppings like green peppers and mushrooms can pose problems for a crust, but my experience with the Lehmann NY crust is that it holds up quite well to multiple toppings. In fact, last New Years Eve I made a Lehmann pizza (which I dubbed the "Kitchen Sink") that had pepperoni, sausage, diced green peppers, mushrooms, onions, fresh and processed mozzarella cheeses, provolone cheese, Asiago cheese, Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese, 6-in-1, San Marzano, and fresh tomatoes, and the crust held up surprisingly well. I could be wrong, but I would think that a crust made from a naturally leavened Lehmann dough would be even better and still bear up under the weight of the many toppings. Remember, too, that the doughs you have been experimenting with, for example, the Patsy's, Raquel and Sophia doughs, are quite a bit thinner than the Lehmann NY style doughs.

As for your question about the ideal or optimum cold rise for a naturally leavened dough, I would say about 2 days also--at least with respect to the Lehmann NY style dough. One of the best such doughs I made, and reported on at Reply #153 at this thread, utilized a cold rise of around 45 hours. I am reasonably confident that with good kneading techniques the useful life can be extended even further, as Varasano has proven, but everything has to be done just right. You can't just assume that any dough can reach 4 or more days. Even if you can get out several days, you might not like the more intense flavors.  Also, you can run into crust browning problems in a conventional home oven as the acids build up in the dough and the sugars (natural and added) are gradually depleted. I suspect hat this is somewhat less of a problem with your high-temperature grill.

I'm glad you didn't ask me the ideal or optimum room-temperature rise for a naturally leavened dough ;). That's a much tougher question--one I am still trying to get my mind and arms around.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #165 on: May 22, 2005, 09:14:22 PM »
One of the things I have been trying to accomplish lately is to devise a recipe and technique for making a same-day Lehmann dough that would 1) use a natural preferment, 2) be fermented at room temperature, 3) use a high hydration level (to achieve an open and airy crust), 4) be easy to handle and shape, and 5) yield a crust flavor equal to or better than a Lehmann crust made from a 24-hour retarded dough (at a minimum). To set the bar even higher, I decided that I also wanted anyone practicing the recipe to be able to start the dough in the morning--for example, before leaving for work--and to shape, dress and bake the pizza that evening about 9-10 hours later, without anyone having to touch the dough at all during the entire fermentation/rise time. As a further timesaving measure, I also decided that I didn’t want to use any autolyse or similar rest periods, no matter how brief. And I didn’t want anyone, including me, to have to get up at 3:00 AM to feed the preferment so that it would be ready to go at dough making time a few hours later. An important aspect of what I wanted to achieve was that the preferment would have to be readied starting the night before.

To achieve the above goals, I decided to use my basic preferment to naturally leaven the final dough as usual, but instead of using it in its normal liquid, batter-like state, I would convert it to a much thicker consistency--much like a thick, soft, wet dough--and let it ferment and ripen overnight before incorporating it the following morning, along with all of the other ingredients, into the basic Lehmann dough formulation. The thickened preferment would be similar to what is often referred to a chef or a pate fermentee (“old dough”) but, unlike a chef or pate fermentee, it would be “new” dough rather than “old” dough and it would contain no salt. For purposes of this post, I will simply refer to it as a “dough preferment” for lack of a better term.

To prepare the dough preferment, the evening before I planned to make the Lehmann dough I took 1/2 cup of my natural batter-like preferment, which I had refreshed earlier in the day with flour and warm water (a process that took about 3 hours after taking it out of the refrigerator), and combined it with the following: 3 ounces of flour (1/4 c. plus 7 t.) and 2 1/2 ounces of warm water (1/4 c., at 85-90 degrees F). After thoroughly mixing these ingredients together in a bowl to achieve a somewhat thick, dough-like consistency, I lightly covered the bowl (I used a loose fitting lid but a towel can also be used) and set it on my countertop to allow the dough preferment to ferment and ripen overnight so that it would be ready to use by morning.

By the next morning, about 10 hours later, the dough preferment had almost tripled in volume—a clear indication that, at least at the outset, my basic preferment had sufficient leavening power. One of my concerns at this point was that the dough preferment may have overrisen and weakened during the night because of the 10 hour rise (at about 75 degrees F) and its substantial volume expansion. However, I speculated that, even if such were the case, the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor would still be there and, once I incorporated the dough preferment into the basic Lehmann dough recipe, as weak as it might be, the resulting dough would ferment and rise at a good slow pace throughout the day and be ready to be used 9-10 hours thereafter without fear of overfermentation. Whether my analysis was correct or not, the dough seemed to concur with my analysis--at least judging from the outcome as described below.

For the Lehmann dough recipe, I decided to use the same basic recipe (for a 16-inch skin) as set forth originally in Reply #151 (and indirectly in Reply #161) but modified in a few respects to account for the substitution of the dough preferment for the basic liquid preferment called for in the recipe. I decided to use the dough preferment in an amount equal to 20% by weight of flour--a figure I borrowed from fellow member Bakerboy’s work with pate fermentee. For my dough preferment, this came to about 3 1/2 tablespoons (about 2.32 ounces.). (I chose to discard whatever dough preferment I would not need for the recipe, although it could have been used to make more dough or for other sourdough baking purposes.)

To spare readers having to go back to look for the basic recipe, the recipe as I modified it for this experiment was as follows:

100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 11.60 oz. (2 1/2 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
63%, Water, 7.00 oz. (7/8 c., temp. adjusted to get a finished dough temp. of around 80 degrees F but not adjusted for dough preferment hydration)
1.75%, Salt, 0.203 oz. (about 1 t.)
1%, Olive oil, 0.12 oz. (a bit less than 3/4 t.)
20%, Dough Preferment, 2.32 oz. (about 3 1/2 T.)
Finished dough ball weight: 21 oz. (TF = 0.105)
Finished dough temperature: 77.8 degrees F

The processing of the Lehmann dough was the same as previously described in Reply #161 except that I had to make a few minor adjustments to the amount of flour (accounted for in the above recipe) during kneading to compensate for the hydration level of the dough preferment, which was wetter than the dough itself. When the dough was fully kneaded, I shaped it into a round, smooth ball, oiled it very lightly, flattened it into a disk, placed it in a round, transparent, straight-sided, 6-inch diameter Rubbermaid container (see the first photo below), covered the container with a loose fitting lid, and set it on my kitchen countertop to ferment during the day. I intentionally chose the container I selected because of its round shape (the same shape as a pizza skin), and because its straight sides and transparency would allow me to see the dough rise and accurately measure the degree of its volume expansion (note the use in the first photo of a rubber band to mark the starting level of the dough).

For the first four hours that the container of dough sat on my countertop, there was no discernible difference in the dough, even at a room temperature of around 78 degrees F. The dough just sat there. Then, very gradually, almost imperceptibly, the dough started to expand. And by about 5 or 6 hours later, the dough had about doubled in volume, with the bulk of the rise having taken place in the final couple of hours. At that point in its destination, the dough was soft and somewhat flabby looking, giving no palpable signs that success was to be achieved. At the expiration of the 9-10 hour period, I put the dough on my work surface and dusted it with bench flour in preparation for shaping and stretching the dough into a skin. The dough was cool to the touch but not wet or sticky--as was my last effort--and it had a good, substantive feel to it. I took that to be a good sign.

Very surprisingly, despite its rather anemic appearance throughout the entire fermentation period, the dough handled exceptionally well. Like many of the Lehmann NY style doughs I have made, the dough was quite extensible but I had no difficulty whatsoever in shaping and stretching it out to the 16-inch size that I would use on my 16-inch pizza screen. I was very happy with the dough. Once the dough had been stretched to the 16-inch size and placed on the pizza screen, it was dressed in a simple pepperoni style. In a departure from the way I last baked the Lehmann pizza, this time I placed the pizza screen with the dressed pizza on it directly onto my pizza stone, which I had placed on the bottom oven rack position and preheated to a temperature of about 500-550 degrees F for about an hour. After about 5 minutes of bake time, I removed the pizza from the screen and slid it directly onto the pizza stone for an additional couple of minutes to achieve additional bottom crust browning. This was followed by an additional minute or so of baking on the upper oven rack position, just under the broiler element, which I had turned on about 3 minutes into the baking process.

The last two photos show the finished product. I am pleased to report that the pizza was one of the best Lehmann pizzas I have made, with a crust as good as any I have made in my many experiments with the Lehmann dough--whether based on retardation (refrigeration) or not. The crust was chewy yet soft and tender and with a nice pleasant flavor. For one of the few times, I even got the rim to be a normal NY street size :). But what pleases me most is that I now believe, for the first time, that it is possible to make a high quality same-day Lehmann dough and pizza without having to subject the dough itself to a period of overnight retardation. Rather, the heavy lifting is put on the back of the preferment. Of course, quality often comes at a price and, in this case, it means having to make or reconstitute a preferment and take care of it and learn its individualistic, often unpredictable, behavior pattern and put it to greatest use.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 08:59:51 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Trinity

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #166 on: May 23, 2005, 06:32:20 AM »
 :o   


 Oh, I can just about taste it from here....  Drool :)::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #167 on: May 23, 2005, 07:41:36 AM »
Pete-zza,
I was waiting, waiting, waiting to read what the final judgment was for this new experiment - and you didn't disappoint! Your explanation, as usual, was very thorough and concise. And now, I can't wait to try this version of the Lehmann's NY Style Pizza.

Do you think I can make two smaller pies from the resulting dough? I don't have a peel big enough or oven tile space sufficient for 16" pizzas.

Thanks for this latest version!

pyegal

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #168 on: May 23, 2005, 08:23:26 AM »
Pete-zza,
Interesting outcome to say the least. I believe there is much we can learn from you and your well documented experiments.

Yesterday I had the unexpected opportunity to use an 8 hour cold rise Pizza Raquel followed by a 3 hour counter rise. The crust flavor was the equal of any I have fermented in my recent memory. The crust charred quite well which was totally unexpected. Why? I don't really know. For now I am just reporting the results and tracking them with the hope that some sort of recognizable pattern or trend will present itself.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #169 on: May 23, 2005, 09:09:54 AM »
Teresa,

There is no reason why you can't make two pizzas out of the amount of dough from the most recent recipe. However, from my calculations, the size of each pizza would be limited to a bit over 13 inches (to stay within the thickness design parameter of the pizza). That's a bit of an oddball size so if there is a more convenient size you would like to make, let me know and if there isn't already a recipe on the thread for that size, I am certain I can adjust the most recent recipe for whatever size you prefer or your particular oven can accommodate.

My recollection is that you use a food processor. If so, there is no reason I can see offhand why you can't use a food processor to make a dough using the most recent recipe. In fact, the dough can be made even faster in the food processor than in a stand mixer. However, you have to be very careful not to overheat the dough during the kneading process. For long room-temperature rise times, you want to keep the dough as cool as possible so that the dough doesn't overferment. With summer almost upon us (it was 98 degrees F here in Texas yesterday and 78 degrees inside), it is even more important to be sure that the dough is kept as cool as possible. Since we are pretty much stuck with our room temperatures (short of spending a fortune on air conditioning to cool the kitchen), the best way to keep the dough cool is to use much cooler water when making the dough and, when using the processor, to use only the pulse feature (and a plastic kneading disc if you have one, although it isn't absolutely necessary). If you will tell me what your general room temperature is this time of year and what kind of processor you are using (e.g., brand), I think I can give you at least a rough idea of the water temperature to use.

You can also slow down the fermentation rate and reduce the risk of overfermentation by using less preferment (the "dough preferment"). It might even be possible to use an unrefreshed preferment in making the dough preferment (that is, using the preferment right out of the refrigerator to make the dough preferment), although I haven't tried this yet. The whole objective of these exercises is to slow down the rate of fermentation, especially in the summer where high room temperatures generally prevail. To the extent you can do this, you buy a little more time to make the pizzas without fear that the dough has overrisen.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 10:57:05 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #170 on: May 23, 2005, 10:11:34 AM »
Peter, I recently used a starter that would probably be considered immature to try to control the problems I was having with overfermentation.  It worked perfectly, and still had tons of lift and flavor. I can see that in the summer months to come this, and some extra salt might help some people out.  For now,  I am now back to just using recipes with a tiny bit of preferment (Marco's) and this also works great for my warmer than optimal room temp.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #171 on: May 23, 2005, 11:20:16 AM »
scott,

I am glad to see that you are using your head as much as anything else in adjusting to the circumstances surrounding the making of your doughs. Especially with room-fermented doughs, you just can't slavishly follow recipes and be sure of getting consistently good results. Room fermented doughs, and particularly those that use natural preferments, give few "all clear" signals that they are ready for forming into skins. That was one of the reasons I spent a lot of time with my most recent Lehmann dough just watching its development with time--from the moment it went into the container until show time. Consistent with studies that have been performed on room-temperature, naturally-leavened doughs, I found that a doubling of the dough is just about right (the studies say 2 to 2 1/2 times). I think even a bit less than a doubling might also be OK. The advantage of looking at milestones, like a doubling of a dough, is that it takes time out of the equation. To the extent you are able to substitute milestones for times in the process of dough making, the better I think your overall results will be.

I subscribe to a conspiracy theory when it comes to preferments and room-temperature, naturally-leavened doughs--that is, they are lying awake at night (or during the day) conspiring to thwart or defeat whatever I have in mind to do with them :). It forces my mind into overdrive, and I can tell you it is a humbling experience. I am constantly in awe of what is going on beneath the skin of a dough ball.

As for your comment on salt, I have been careful not to suggest increasing salt levels to slow down the fermentation process, although this is quite common with 00 doughs especially, and more so with room fermented, naturally-leavened doughs. 00 doughs already use high salt levels (up to 2.8% in some cases), and adding more salt might produce an overly salty tasting crust. Plus there are those who are on salt-restricted diets. But you are correct on the theory.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 11:36:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline pyegal

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #172 on: May 23, 2005, 12:52:16 PM »
Pete-zza,
I have used a food processor to make up my dough - it is a Black and Decker, has a pulse feature, and did not overheat the dough the last time I used it, the dough checked out at slightly less than 80 degrees F on my instant read thermometer. I also have a Kitchen Aid mixer that I use to mix dough, and you may recall, I made one NY-style recipe by hand w/o processor or mixer.

The temperature in my kitchen at 12:45 pm today is approximately 76-77 degrees. What are your thoughts on mixing the crust dough (not the preferment) with chilled water from the refrigerator when the summer temps warm up our kitchens?

Any thoughts on the question about making dough by hand in the summer? Would the hand kneading raise the dough temp beyond the preferred temperatures for a long room temp rise?

Thanks!

Teresa

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #173 on: May 23, 2005, 01:40:20 PM »
PYEGAL:
  Good Morning. If you are using Instant yeast you should use fridge water. I use approx. 60 degree water when mixing any of my yeasted lean bread dough.
    As you know, 78 to 82 degrees is considered an optimum temp by many prof bakers when mixing is completed. However, more than that what you need to be aware of is this, If you let you dough concoction reach & exceed 90 degrees it will develop an oder, You must then discard it & begin anew. I hope i was able to provide some insight to you  young lady.
  ~DINKS.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #174 on: May 23, 2005, 02:44:01 PM »
Teresa,

I was hoping you had a Cuisinart food processor, since that would have made it easier for me to give you a better answer. But that's not a real problem. The next time you make a batch of dough in your B&D food processor, using only the pulse feature (an occasional but brief whirl at normal speed is OK if that is your practice), make note of the room temperature, the water temperature, the flour temperature, and the finished dough temperature (whatever it is). With that information, I will be able to give you a better idea of what water temperature to use this time of year. For now, I would use around 70 degrees F for the water for the food processor application to make the dough itself. I don't think there is any need to use cool water for the preferment itself.

Fellow member DINKS raises some good points. Living in the Las Vegas area, he has many of the same problems with temperature that I do. I am not sure he was referring to high finished dough temperatures in the context of a naturally-leavened dough, but such doughs don't particularly like high temperatures. Above about 90 degrees F, the lactic acids in the dough become more potent and are responsible for the odor that DINKS refers to. That's one of the reasons to be conscious of temperature and to take steps to compensate (the longer the fermentation or the higher the temperature, the more potent the sourness will be).

As for your question on hand kneading, that's OK if you plan to make only a small amount of dough. As you know, the KA Sir Lancelot flour is high in gluten. Kneading a KASL dough ball for a 16-inch pizza by hand is extremely hard to do unless you have Popeye's muscles. A dough ball for a 12-inch pizza is much more doable, but still a chore. FYI, hand kneading produces the smallest amount of heat rise in a dough. In the expression I use to calculate water temperature, I assign a friction factor value of 0 to hand kneading.

Peter



« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 09:28:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #175 on: May 24, 2005, 11:39:40 PM »
After making the last Lehmann pizza the other night, I wondered whether it was possible for me to improve upon it--to make it simpler and/or to improve upon its quality. After giving the matter a fair amount of thought, I decided that I would explore making three changes: 1) simplify the dough preferment process, 2) use an autolyse, and 3) use a food processor instead of a stand mixer.

For the dough preferment, I decided that I would use my preferment in its unrefreshed state, that is, directly out of the refrigerator without the normal or regular feeding with flour and water. I would also make just the amount of preferment dough I would need for my recipe (as set forth in Reply #165 at this thread), and no more. There would be no leftover dough preferment. Finally, in making the dough preferment, I would use cold water, right out of the refrigerator, rather than warm water, as I had previously done. In this latter respect, I theorized that the cold water would cause the dough preferment to rise and ripen overnight more slowly than if I used warm water, and by morning it would be in good shape to use and not exhibit signs of overrising.

To make the newest version of the dough preferment to achieve the above objectives, I took 1/8 cup of my unrefreshed natural preferment (about 0.85 oz., or a bit more than 1 T.) and combined that with 1.10 oz. of flour (3T.) and 0.45 oz. cold water (1 T.). The total weight of that mix came to 2.40 oz., an amount equal to about 20% by weight of flour as called for in the Lehmann dough recipe I last used. That amount also represented the exact amount I would need, without any leftover. Perhaps more importantly, the specific quantities I chose for the new dough preferment yielded a dough that had a hydration percent quite close to the hydration level of the basic Lehmann dough into which the dough preferment would be incorporated. This is a common technique used by bakers, typically when “old doughs” or pate fermentee are used. The final dough preferment looked and felt just like another piece of pizza dough.

The dough preferment was put into a small, loosely covered container and left on my kitchen countertop to rise and ripen overnight. By the next morning, about 10 hours later, the dough preferment had risen by two to three times. It was soft and billowy, but I could see that it was starting to sink in the center. This is considered the best time to use a preferment for leavening purposes.

For the basic Lehmann dough recipe itself, I chose to use the same recipe that was set forth in Reply #165, with which I achieved good results. However, this time I would use a food processor rather than a stand mixer to process the dough. Since a dough can be made quite a bit faster in a food processor than a stand mixer, I decided that it would be safe to add an autolyse to the process without unduly extending the overall duration of the dough making process. To save a bit more time in this regard, I had premeasured the flour the night before and put it aside along with all the rest of the ingredients to be ready once I started the dough making process the next morning.

To prepare the dough, I used the following basic procedure: I first placed the flour into the food processor and gradually added the water (which I had temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F), and pulsed the processor until a smooth, round dough ball formed between the dough blade (I used the plastic one) and the sides of the processor bowl.  (Note: It is important when making a food processor dough to add the water to the flour, not vice versa, and to add the water slowly and at only the rate that the flour can readily absorb so as not to end up with a soupy or gummy mix that can clog up the dough blade and require substantial effort to undo--usually by removing and reorienting the dough and/or adding more flour.) I then let the flour and water mixture rest for 20 minutes (the autolyse rest period). This was followed, in turn, by pulsing in the dough preferment, the olive oil and the salt--all classic Prof. Calvel autolyse steps. The finished dough ball weighed almost 21 ounces. After a final minute of hand kneading, I placed the dough into a straight-sided container (the same one I used for the last Lehmann dough), pressed the dough down into a flat disk, and put the container (loosely covered) on my kitchen countertop to rise and ferment throughout the day.

Given the small amount of dough preferment and its use of cold water to slow down its fermentation, I was very curious to see how the dough would behave, specifically, how much and at what rate it would rise. To my great surprise, the dough rose hardly at all. It just sat there, quietly minding its own business. It was only after about 10 hours or so--at the time I planned to use the dough to make a pizza--that I started to see a very small amount of expansion of the dough--maybe 1/8 inch at best. The dough was alive, but I had no idea what to expect in the way of further performance. I had observed the same behavior before on several occasions when I experimented with the naturally-leavened, room temperature Caputo 00 doughs, and I had made retarded Lehmann doughs that hardly rose at all--but this was the first time I experienced the behavior with a naturally-leavened, room temperature Lehmann dough. Since I had come this far, I decided to forge ahead.

As with the last Lehmann dough, I was surprised (shocked may be a better word) to see that today’s dough behaved exceptionally well--as well as any dough I have ever made. It had a perfect amount of elasticity and extensibility--I could stretch it in any direction and by any amount I wanted without fear of tears or weak spots forming. It was a dream to work with and I had such fun with it that I didn’t want to stop. If I had to guess, I would attribute the dough’s high handling quality to the autolyse. It’s possible that using the food processor also helped, but my past efforts making doughs using a food processor did not produce doughs of such high quality. The only way to know for sure is to repeat the recipe but without using the autolyse.

The finished pizza was also first rate. I had dressed and baked it in the same manner as the previous Lehmann dough, and achieved results (crust taste, texture and color) that to me were virtually indistinguishable from the last Lehmann pizza. Today’s dough was of better quality, but not so much as to suggest that one not use the last Lehmann dough recipe. Today’s dough took a couple hours longer to ferment, and that might be a factor in electing one recipe over the other, but they were both exceptionally good in my opinion. But what today’s results demonstrated is that it is possible to use an unrefreshed preferment to produce a dough preferment to naturally leaven a same-day, room-temperature Lehmann style dough to produce a pizza of very high quality.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter



« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 10:34:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Trinity

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #176 on: May 25, 2005, 09:01:23 AM »
I think I will try to copy that. (looks only)...  ;D

If I do it I will post a pic. :)


Edit;

I did it!

  Come and see!!! :)



http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1419.0.html
« Last Edit: May 27, 2005, 12:12:43 PM by Trinity »
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

Offline pyegal

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #177 on: May 27, 2005, 06:33:34 PM »
A couple of questions, Peter:

1) do you add all the flour when mixing before the autolyse or do you hold some back to add if needed?

2) do you leave the dough in the food processor during the autolyse period?

3) the water used in mixing the dough, was it room temp or chilled from the frig?

I'm really glad you tried this out for us. I used to use my Kitchen Aid mixer for mixing up pizza dough, or I did it by hand. But I really like the texture, not to mention ease and quickness of preparation using a food processor. And, when all is said and done, it's no harder to clean than the mixer.

This will be the next version I will try. I have some dough (Lehmanns' with the pinch of yeast and small amount of starter mixed in the food processor) rising now in the un-air conditioned laundry room. Tonight's pizza will be hamburger, onions, and bell pepper. Yummmm!

pyegal


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #178 on: May 27, 2005, 07:10:19 PM »
Teresa,

Good questions.

When I use the food processor for kneading dough, I put the flour in first and then add the water gradually, just to the point where a ball forms between the dough blade and the walls of the processor bowl. For my autolyse, I put all of the flour in at one time, followed by the water (gradually). I know that some autolyse methods call for combining in stages, and even though I have done this on many occasions myself, I have never been quite able to figure out the logic in doing it that way. If increased hydration is the purpose, why not hydrate all the flour at one time, before adding the rest of the ingredients? I suppose you could do the autolyse in stages, but that doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me. Maybe our good friend DINKS or one of our other baker members can provide a good explanation if there is one.

I leave the dough right in the processor bowl during autolyse. I just throw a towel over the top of the processor or the bowl itself so the dough doesn't dry out during the autolyse.

I temperature adjust the water for my dough recipes to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. When I made the last Lehmann dough, the calculation said to use water at 70 degrees F. That is roughly room temperature water, although I use bottled refrigerated water and heat it in the microwave to get it up to around 70 degrees F.

If you follow the procedure of putting the flour in the bowl first, followed by the water, and, after the autolyse (which itself will have a slight dough cooling effect), adding the oil and the salt (separately or together)--always using the pulse feature to do the combining and kneading--you should be OK in terms of finished dough temperature, even if you come in a bit higher. Even if you miss the mark by say, 10 degrees on the high side, you can always put the dough in the refrigerator for about 15-20 minutes to cool the dough down a bit and return the dough to room temperature. Using cooler water to begin with should also work, but the dough may ferment a little bit slower. I'm not sure you could really tell the difference since the dough hardly rises at all. I threw in the towel after about 10 hours of seeing virtually no rise in the dough. To paraphrase an old expression about a watched pot never boiling, I guess a watched dough never rises :).

Good luck with tonight's pizza.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 09:36:34 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline pyegal

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Friday's pizza
« Reply #179 on: May 27, 2005, 10:17:10 PM »
Here is tonight's pizza: hamburger, onion, green bell pepper, and mozzarella. This is the second pizza
which turned out better tasting (for some reason?) and the photo was better than the first pizza. I used what I had on hand, but I prefer Italian sausage or pepperoni and a spicier sauce. This crust was very good, just the right mix of crispness in the middle and chewiness on the rim.

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/98254239.jpg">

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/98253980.jpg">


 

pizzapan