Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 542764 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #425 on: June 21, 2006, 09:38:06 PM »
Recently, after having read about Greek/bar style pizzas, I decided to make one using a modified version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough. Greek/bar style pizzas are baked in pans and usually have thicker crusts than the NY style, and the doughs for them use a fair amount of sugar. To achieve that style using the Lehmann dough formulation, I 1) increased the thickness factor from a typical 0.10-0.105 to 0.11 (to achieve a thicker crust), 2) increased the yeast (IDY) by about 50% (to get more rise in the dough), and 3) added sugar to the dough (sugar seems to be a common ingredient for the Greek/bar style). Because the changes I made deviated in several respects from the basic Lehmann dough formulation and because a pan was used to bake the pizza, I have opted to report the results at the Greek pizza thread at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482. I thought the pizza was first rate, and mention it here simply because the results demonstrate how the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation can be modified quite easily to make other types of pizzas. The photo below is of the pizza I made (shown within the pan).

Peter
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 10:54:08 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Scagnetti

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Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #426 on: June 22, 2006, 04:25:16 PM »
.
.

The final recipe, with baker's percents, is as follows:

   KA bread flour (100%), 12.10 ounces (about 2 3/4 c.)
   Arrowhead VWG (2.5 %), 0.30 oz. (about 1 T.)
   Water (63%), 7.65 oz. (about 7/8 c.), plus an additional 1 T.
   Salt (1.75%), 0.21 oz. (about 1 t.)
   Oil (1.0%), 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
   IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)
.
.
.

Above excerpted from Reply #65 and #66 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

Pete,

Do you think this method can be used as a substitute for any recipe requiring high gluten flour, specifically Steve's quick & easy NY pie as noted at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2790.0.html

Thanks.

Scagnetti

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #427 on: June 22, 2006, 05:09:52 PM »
Scagnetti,

If you are asking whether the bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) combination can be used in lieu of the high-gluten KASL in Steve's recipe or another recipe calling for high-gluten flour, the answer is yes. You should also be able to get away with using only bread flour (without the VWG). In that case, you might lower the hydration a bit, by maybe 1-2%, to compensate for the fact that bread flour has a slightly lower absorption rate (hydration) than high-gluten flour.

If you are asking whether the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced can be used to make a "quick and easy" pizza dough like Steve's, the answer is also yes but you would have to modify the formulation. I suspect that that is not what you are really asking, but if so and you would like to know how to modify the formulation, please let me know.

Peter

Offline Scagnetti

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #428 on: June 22, 2006, 05:34:28 PM »
If you are asking whether the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced can be used to make a "quick and easy" pizza dough like Steve's, the answer is also yes but you would have to modify the formulation. I suspect that that is not what you are really asking, but if so and you would like to know how to modify the formulation, please let me know.

Peter

I've done your "Massachusetts" pizza twice (Reply #65) using KA All Purpose flour and VWG. The first pie was really good with a good crust and bubbles.  The second one was flat with no bubbles at all but I think I screwed up by opening the oven once too many times.  Anyway, what adjustments would I have to make for Steve's if I wanted to use the KA AP or KA Bread flour and VWG approach.

Scagnetti


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #429 on: June 22, 2006, 07:56:18 PM »
Scagnetti,

Steve's quick and easy dough recipe calls for 10.7 ounces of KASL and 7.4 ounces of water. If you want to use a combination of bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) in lieu of KASL in Steve's recipe, you would go through the types of calculations described in Reply 65 that you referenced. If you want to use a combination of all-purpose flour and VWG in lieu of the KASL in Steve's recipe, you would go through the types of calculations described in Reply 67. When I originally did these calculations, I assumed that King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and King Arthur all-purpose flour (KAAP) were used. If you are using different brands of bread flour and all-purpose flour, the calculations would produce slightly different results because the King Arthur brands of both these flours have slightly higher protein levels than just about all competing brands.

On the assumption that KABF and KAAP are used, the quantities of flour, VWG and water to use in Steve's recipe would be as set forth below. The remaining ingredients (salt and yeast) can remain the same.

KABF (12.7% protein)
10.7 oz. KABF
0.27 oz. VWG (a bit over 2 1/2 t.)
7.80 oz. water

KAAP (11.7% protein)
10.7 oz. KAAP
0.45 oz. VWG (a bit over 4 1/4 t.)
8.07 oz. water

Using the above approaches will increase the total weight of the dough a bit from that derived from Steve's recipe, but the differences will be slight. However, if you want to keep the same weight in each case, you could subtract the weight of the VWG from the flour and leave the water alone. This approach was also described in Reply 65. Because Steve's recipe calls for a hydration of 69.2% and will yield a quite wet dough as a result, you may find that you will have to add a bit more flour in the event you can't handle the dough because of excessive wetness. This is somewhat inevitable because of the different hydration characteristics of the different flours and also the VWG.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline musiq

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #430 on: July 16, 2006, 05:07:06 PM »
Carlo,

When you first joined the forum, you told us your name and that you were living in the UK but once lived in Italy. Knowing that, I intentionally drew the distinction between the way pizzas are made in Italy using 00 flour, with which you would be familiar, and how they are made in the U.S. using other flours, which you might not be quite as familiar. In Italy, and especially places like Naples, pizza makers seem to be bound more by tradition. This is less common in the U.S., where more attention is given to how to exploit ideas to create profitable businesses. In that context, it isn't surprising that a short-term dough should emerge out of flour, water, yeast and salt. If there is a way to do it, American entrepreneurism will usually find it.

A short-term dough will appeal to ordinary home pizza makers also because it saves time and is easy to make. I have the luxury of time to make exactly the pizza I want to make, but most people don't have that luxury. But I still think it is good to know how to make the best short-term dough possible for those occasions where there is a desire or need to have it, for whatever reason. I think quite often about how more flavor might be introduced to a short-term dough. I know that there are chemical additives to do this sort of thing, as some bakers and commisaries use to create faux sourdough breads, but I would prefer natural ways--which I have yet to uncover.

Peter

Hi Peter,
sorry it took me so long to reply, had a busy month (including the celebrations for the world cup!)and haven't had much time to do experiments on pizzas.
I agree with what you said, and i absolutely don't question the conveniency of a quick-rise dough. Who wouldn't want to be able to have his pizza ready in a hour? ;)
My point is trying not to sacrifice digestibility and health in search for a better flavour. That is the reason i don't advice using an high gluten or bread flour for anything that hasn't been left maturing for at least 7-8 hours at room temperature.
For this reason yesterday i tried to make two quick NY pizzas , one using bread flour and the other using AP( in england is called Plain flour, i guess it's the same thing, 10,4% protein).

Both were made with same baker's percentages, being

63% warm water
1% oil
1,75% salt
0,5% IDY

The bread flour one used a slightly higher hydration, and yeast is an approximate value, as dealing with such small quantities is really difficult.

The procedure was the same for both, water in the bowl, IDY dissolved in it, half the flour all together, mixed it, and then added the rest of the flour spoon by spoon , mixing everytime till it was absorbed, leaving some for the hand kneading. Salt was added when 3/4 of the flour had been incorporated,  and oil as the very last thing. The dough was slighly under kneaded ( meaning in both cases i could have gone on for 3-5 minutes more). Everything was done on purpose with the quick rise in mind. I put the two balls in different bowl and let them rise in the same part of the kitchen(temperature was approximately around 25°C). If i had worked with bigger quantities, i would have let the dough bulk fermenting for 30 minutes and then shaped the balls with the least possible handling. Having just done 2 single pizzas, i just left them to rise for 3 hours. At the time they had doubled in size. I shaped them and baked them at 250°C (no stone unfortunately). I didn't care much about the dressing , being so focused on the crust , so they were just spiced tomato and cheddar cheese. They cooked for 8-9 minutes.

Results: surprisingly the APF had a better browning, better flavour and better texture than the BF one, and for these reason was the clear winner(conforted in my choice by my girlfriend, who had no clue on why i was being so obsessed about those pizzas.. ::) ). The only reason my little knowledge gives me is what i was speculating on in my previous posts, being that a fully developed (meaning matured) dough made with a lower quality flour is better than an "unready" one with bread flour.

I 'll have to repeat this experiment anyway, because i'm not as meticulous and consistent as you are, so i might have just put more effort in the AP one just to prove myself my point ;D

Bye!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 05:08:54 PM by musiq »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #431 on: July 16, 2006, 06:55:36 PM »
Carlo,

Usually the biggest complaint you hear about short-term, few-hours doughs is the lack of real crust flavor, followed by light crust coloration and sub-par texture. You are one of the very few, along with pizzanapoletana (Marco), to mention the digestibility aspect on this forum. I, myself, was unaware of it until the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 in New York City mentioned it to me a few years ago while I was in the restaurant discussing pizza with him, and I remember being puzzled by it. When Marco subsequently mentioned it on this forum, that was only the second time I heard of it and it brought back my memory of my meeting with the Naples 45 pizzaiolo. So, I suspect that most people either aren't aware of the phenomenon or it simply isn't a factor or a concern for them, especially for those who are young and have cast-iron stomachs. And, for some, a pizza that can be made in a few hours is good enough reason to make the pizza, even though it might mean some discomfort from a digestibility standpoint. Having made several few-hours doughs over the last month or so, I can say that they would not be my first choice. As previoiusly indicated, I don't mind waiting for a dough to develop. I leave to others to decide whether to do the same thing.

You are correct that a higher protein/gluten flour can tolerate a longer fermentation time than a lower protein/gluten flour and this may reflect itself in results such as you experienced. But, since I have not done a side-by-side test such as you did, I look forward to the results of your next experiment on this subject. But, whatever the results, I think you have done the forum a service by once again bringing the digestibility issue to the attention of its members.

Peter

Offline Wallman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #432 on: July 18, 2006, 09:43:53 PM »
Tom Lehmann meets Two-Buck Chuck.  Just for kicks I used about 3 oz. of Charles Shaw Cabernet in place of the equivalent amount of water in the basic Lehmann recipe.  I then cooked the pizza follow Pete's hot weather directions (short prebake, on a screen).  The pizza came out pink, but tasted pretty good, really not much flavor difference.  The crust was a little leathery due to the longer cooking time at lower temperature.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #433 on: July 18, 2006, 10:11:54 PM »
Wally,

The pizza actually looks quite good :D. I have read about using wine in a pizza dough but have never actually tried it. You are unlikely to see pizza operators use either wine or beer in a pizza dough because of concerns that children will be eating the pizza--even though all that is left after the bake is flavor/color components but no alcohol.

Tom Lehmann addresses the use and limitations of using wine in pizza dough as follows, from http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=17723:

How does having wine in a dough recpe do ?
: recipe is from Vogue magazine, Feb. 2005..
: water is 44%, white wine is 14%, in Baker's per
: centage

: Can I ferment iit in the cooler overnight in
: the standard way or use within 6 hours like
: a same day dough....

: I can supply other ingredient % if needed
: Otis
Otis;
The wine will be like the addition of a flavoring material. The fruity flavor of the wine may come through, and the flavor of the additional alcohol may also come through. Cooking wines are widely used even in baking. Cooking wine is less expensive than drinking wine as it has salt added to it to render it undrinkable, but in cooking/baking, the salt in the wine can be easily adjusted for by adding less salt to the product formulation. If I remember correctly, cooking wine has 2% salt added to it. One of our readers might be able to confirm or correct me on this. Until the total alcohol content reaches 11% in the dough it should perform normally. So I would say that you should be able to continue handling the dough with wine in your normal manner.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Peter





Offline Wallman

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #434 on: July 18, 2006, 10:36:05 PM »
To be honest, I was a little surprised that their wasn't more fruity flavor in the crust, the Two-Buck Chuck is a good wine to use for cooking, since it doesn't have extra salt and it doesn't taste too bad (certainly not at the price Trader Joe's charges).  The dough did rise for two days and there was no alcohol flavor.  I may play around with a white wine or beer to see how if affects the flavor and browning.  The red wine would make a good Valentine's Day pizza!

BTW, I'm heading to Pittsburgh this weekend and will be making a visit to Penn Mac to load up on tomatoes, cheese, meats and tomatoes -- although, I should have lots of home grown San Marzanos in a few weeks.

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #435 on: July 26, 2006, 06:26:58 PM »
Pete, does Tom Lehmann not believe in an autolyze?   Do NY pizza places employ this technique? DiFaras?  PFTaylor comment?

Have there been any pizza operators that employ an autolyze?

I'll have to thumb through Reinhart's book again but I'm alomst certain he doesn't suggest employing an autolyze... and his book was built upon travels and time inside pizzerias...


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #436 on: July 26, 2006, 07:58:50 PM »
abc,

In October of 2004, I discussed the very subject you raised in some detail, at Reply 43 of this thread at Page 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5475.html#msg5475. At the time of that post, I had done a search for the term “autolyse” at the PMQ Think Tank--which is a forum for professional pizza operators--and I was unable to find a single reference. When I repeated the search today at the original PMQ Think Tank (the archives, before the forum software was recently changed), I found one reference, in a question posed to Tom Lehmann, and I believe the term was actually misused by the poster. I believe I have read just about everything that Tom has written on the subject of dough and I have never seen any reference by him in writing to autolyse. If he had mentioned it, I would have surely noted it because I am sensitive to the topic. His failure to mention autolyse leads me to believe that autolyse is not a technique used by traditional pizza operators. Some Italian pizza operators apparently use a form of rest period, a riposo, but I don't know if that is considered a classical autolyse.

I might also add, however, that recently I discovered that the use of autolyse is increasing among artisanal pizza operators. The source of this revelation was Evelyne Slomon, who raised the subject in a post in a thread at the new PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=197. I posted in response to her post because of my interest in the subject, which led to an elaboration by Evelyne of the current status of autolyse among artisan pizza makers. You may find her remarks of interest, along with her other interesting comments on her personal experiences in the profession. BTW, if you saw the recent History Channel piece on pizza, you would have seen Evelyne in several segments of the program. 

To put matters in some perspective, autolyse was first mentioned on this forum in August 2003, and started to attract the membership’s interest in a serious way shortly after I joined the forum in early August of 2004. My first use of autolyse with a Lehmann dough was in early October of 2004. As far as Peter Reinhart’s book is concerned, he does call for use of rest periods. In his case, all the ingredients for many of his dough recipes are mixed together in a bowl before subjecting the dough to a brief rest period (I believe it is only 5 minutes). His rest period in not a classical autolyse as devised by Professor Calvel, but confers some of the same benefits as the classical autolyse. 

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #437 on: July 26, 2006, 09:24:16 PM »
Reinhart does call for a 5 minute rest period in his recipes in American Pie.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #438 on: July 27, 2006, 12:56:20 AM »


I might also add, however, that recently I discovered that the use of autolyse is increasing among artisanal pizza operators. The source of this revelation was Evelyne Slomon, who raised the subject in a post in a thread at the new PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=197. I posted in response to her post because of my interest in the subject, which led to an elaboration by Evelyne of the current status of autolyse among artisan pizza makers. You may find her remarks of interest, along with her other interesting comments on her personal experiences in the profession. BTW, if you saw the recent History Channel piece on pizza, you would have seen Evelyne in several segments of the program.  

Peter


Thanks Peter for the link .I was surprised to read the following comment:

"Finished dough does not have to be mixed until it is as smooth as a baby's bottom, it only needs to be mixed as far as cleaning the sides of the bowl and coming together. You can test a piece by stretching it over your knuckles, if it is elastic and stretches into a thin "veil" it is mixed enough, if it tears, it needs a bit more mixing time."

The only time my dough can be stretched out to resemble a veil is after about 16 hrs of fermentation! ;)
Is this a comment specifically about the Tom Lehmann style dough (which I've never attempted BTW)?

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Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #439 on: July 27, 2006, 09:13:27 AM »
yes, that does read rather odd?  are we mixing biscuits? :chef:

anyway, back to the original question about ny street pizza places using a rest period (for their dough) or not... it does make sense to let the flour hydrate...  for some reason i'd be surprised if a rest period does not exist.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 09:26:16 AM by abc »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #440 on: July 27, 2006, 09:47:47 AM »
David,

Evelyne was responding to a PMQ Think Tank poster who was using a spiral mixer, and there was no indication that a Lehmann dough was being made. I believe Evelyne was speaking rather generically when she wrote what you quoted.

What Tom Lehmann has stated in the past in respect of the desired characteristics of the finished dough is as follows (in italics), also in a rather generic sense:

You want to mix the dough just enough so that when you take an egg size piece of dough, and form it into a ball, then holding it in two hands, with the thumbs together (pointing away from you), and on top of the dough piece, gently pull the thumbs apart. The dough skin should not tear. If it tears, you should mix the dough a little longer. The dough will have a decidedly satiny appearance. Prior to the satiny appearance the dough will have more of a curdled appearance. Do not stretch the dough out between the fingers to form a gluten film. This test for development is for bread and roll doughs, not pizza. Pizza dough is not fully developed at the mixer, instead, it receives most of its development through biochemical gluten development (fermentation). After the dough has been in the cooler for about 24 hours, you should be able to stretch the dough in your fingers and form a very thin, translucent gluten film.

Of course, the above quote is with respect to use of a commercial mixer. Also, as you may know, Peter Reinhart is an advocate of using the “windowpane” test, along with an autolyse-like rest period. Since Peter’s experience comes primarily out of bread-making, it is not surprising that he would be an advocate of both the windowpane test and autolyse. Other culinary notables, including Jeffrey Steingarten and Alton Brown, also espouse the windowpane test.

I might also add that the type of flour used can be a factor. I know that you use a lot of 00 flour, David, and in my experience the types of tests mentioned above do not work as well as with a lower protein/gluten flour. Similarly, when cornmeal is mixed in with a flour.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #441 on: July 27, 2006, 09:55:52 AM »
anyway, back to the original question about ny street pizza places using a rest period (for their dough) or not... it does make sense to let the flour hydrate...  for some reason i'd be surprised if a rest period does not exist.

abc,

It is possible that there may be some form of rest period since it takes a finite amount of time to take a large dough mass out of a mixer and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the dough sometimes sits in the mixer for a while, whether intentional or not, before the division and scaling steps are implemented. In a sense, I suppose the "rest" would be like an Italian riposo.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #442 on: July 27, 2006, 10:29:04 AM »
I had baked TL style pizzas a long time ago. Even with fresh or instant yeast as pre ferment.
With and without autolyse.
The flour that I use to use is, I believe, a low protein one (there are not sufficient information about it)
I had never obtained a good windowpane test when just take the dough from mixing.
After a rest/rise period (with and without resting in refrigerator) the windowpane develop well.
In fact, I do not need to do this test, since shaping the dough shows clearly the develop of it.
I am pretty happy with this type of dough, even without windowpane!

Luis

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #443 on: July 27, 2006, 10:48:43 AM »
Luis,

When I first started experimenting with and writing about the Lehmann dough, I advocated use of the windowpane test. That was because that was all I knew. Even now, there is nothing per se wrong with using the windowpane test. However, there is an increased chance that in trying to get the "perfect" windowpane, people will keep on kneading and end up overkneading the dough. With the typical KitchenAid or equivalent home stand mixer, we are unlikely in any event to get the type of finished dough that comes from using a commercial mixer, and even a high-end home mixer such as the DLX or Santos mixer.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #444 on: July 27, 2006, 12:21:59 PM »
Peter:

As always I agree with you.
I was only trying to explain that I felt myself hungry and/or frustrated because the dough never had passed the windowpane test (that not only you, as a lot of people advocate for).
In place of that, I decided to forget this test and go with the path to a better dough/pizza. No more frustrations, satisfaction in place. And better pizza each time. No matter about windowpane…
Of course, all and each of the threats in this site were read. Some ones applied and some others forgot (auch, I do need to read them again…)
The message is: no one sentence is permanent, no one fact will destroy the previous learned steps, and you always need to be ‘always learned’.
And: do not worry, be happy (extremes out, please)

Luis

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #445 on: July 27, 2006, 12:35:46 PM »
I might also add that the type of flour used can be a factor. I know that you use a lot of 00 flour, David, and in my experience the types of tests mentioned above do not work as well as with a lower protein/gluten flour. Similarly, when cornmeal is mixed in with a flour.

Peter


Thanks Peter.You are right about my personal choices.and i have very little knowledge or experience of making other types of Pizza or using other ingredients.I'm still trying to nail a Neapolitan !
I will venture out in the future to other methods/doughs/ingredients.I just jumped to the assumption as this was in the TLNY thread.I believe it is extremely confusing,particularly to a newcomer,when you read these methods and procedures from "Authoroties" and yet inevitably do not achieve the desired results.I see that the person who raised the question was using a 12% protein flour.
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Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #446 on: July 27, 2006, 12:54:13 PM »
abc,

It is possible that there may be some form of rest period since it takes a finite amount of time to take a large dough mass out of a mixer and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the dough sometimes sits in the mixer for a while, whether intentional or not, before the division and scaling steps are implemented. In a sense, I suppose the "rest" would be like an Italian riposo.

Peter

yep, that's what i was thinking... they may say 'auto wat'??  but if you were allowed to watch them prep the dough in the back, you'd spot when the dough was 'resting'.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #447 on: July 27, 2006, 01:03:20 PM »
Luis,

When I first started experimenting with and writing about the Lehmann dough, I advocated use of the windowpane test. That was because that was all I knew. Even now, there is nothing per se wrong with using the windowpane test. However, there is an increased chance that in trying to get the "perfect" windowpane, people will keep on kneading and end up overkneading the dough. With the typical KitchenAid or equivalent home stand mixer, we are unlikely in any event to get the type of finished dough that comes from using a commercial mixer, and even a high-end home mixer such as the DLX or Santos mixer.

Peter

ouch... so a commerical mixer will give a less oxidized, yet more well churned batch of flour and water?  (better developed gluten?)

if we use a kitchenaid and get it 'finished enough' as a commerical dough, it's going to have more oxygen than a commercial dough?

on the other hand, aren't pizza doughs not supposed to be as mixer developed as bread dough (the opininon of one)


how do we compensate at home with a product of a kitchenaid, being so 'inadequate'?   :-\


longer time in the refridgerator?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #448 on: July 27, 2006, 02:34:16 PM »
abc,

Since I don't work with commercial mixers, I can't tell you how much they oxidize the flour/dough during mixing/kneading. However, I do know that some kinds of commercial mixers do a better job of introducing oxygen into the dough than others. The oxygen is necessary for the yeast to start to reproduce, and the yeast dutifully gobbles up all the oxygen in fairly short order. It's excessive kneading of the dough that oxidizes the flour/dough and damages carotenoids. Interestingly, this brings us back to your earlier post about using autolyse. If you want to reduce oxidation of the dough, then autolyse is one way to do it because one of its benefits is to reduce the total knead time, thereby reducing the extent of possible oxidation. Another way to reduce the oxidation is to put the salt into the dough early, as discussed at this King Arthur piece on salt: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html. However, doing this with an autolyse is generally discouraged because of the effects of salt on yeast and other ingredients in the dough during the autolyse.

As for the typical home KitchenAid stand mixer, beyond stepping up to a DLX, Santos or other comparable mixer (maybe even one of the high-end KitchenAid models with a C-hook) or even a low-level commercial mixer, I believe the best way to use it is to 1) combine the ingredients in the early stages to increase hydration of the flour without trying to develop the gluten (which means either mixing by hand or at low mixer speed, such as Stir or 1 speed), and then 2) using low/medium mixer speeds (mostly speeds 1 and 2) to do the kneading in the final stages to develop the gluten without overkneading the dough. This is somewhat an oversimplified version of the methods I use and have described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. Using an autolyse in the context of these methods is also an option but some rearrangement of the steps may be required depending on whether one wishes to use the classic autolyse or some variation of it.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:10:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #449 on: July 27, 2006, 09:20:43 PM »
quite fascinating stuff...  Pete, what do you feel if anything, is holding your own pizza, from sitting at the counter of some street corner pizzeria?



i was experimenting with a 30min rest this evening...  pizza dough, that is.

i put water first into the mix bowl, then topped with KASL and yeast... mixed until there was no dry flour, which took about 2min for 2 18" doughs... then let it rest 30min.  at that point i added salt and oil and mixed maybe another 2 min... i couldn't tell where i was going with the mixing, that's why i stopped at about 2 min.

before i added the oil and salt, i felt the dough and it felt satiny... i was doing a quick non elaborate window pane test and it seemed possible.

DEFINITELY used less electrical mixing to get this satin feel vs. a non rested dough...

i'm going to leave this in the fridge for at least 48hrs because i won't be free to be in the kitchen this weekend... i might not make pizza out of it, maybe breadsticks... but thought I'd report my findings in mixing dough.

As usual, I use iced water to keep temps cool as per spec on the lehmann recipe... but with a 30min rest... the dough in this summer temp, lost its coolness...  Hope this isn't going to impact my product and confuse the analysis of the final product.


 

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