Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 499430 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #440 on: July 27, 2006, 09:47:47 AM »
David,

Evelyne was responding to a PMQ Think Tank poster who was using a spiral mixer, and there was no indication that a Lehmann dough was being made. I believe Evelyne was speaking rather generically when she wrote what you quoted.

What Tom Lehmann has stated in the past in respect of the desired characteristics of the finished dough is as follows (in italics), also in a rather generic sense:

You want to mix the dough just enough so that when you take an egg size piece of dough, and form it into a ball, then holding it in two hands, with the thumbs together (pointing away from you), and on top of the dough piece, gently pull the thumbs apart. The dough skin should not tear. If it tears, you should mix the dough a little longer. The dough will have a decidedly satiny appearance. Prior to the satiny appearance the dough will have more of a curdled appearance. Do not stretch the dough out between the fingers to form a gluten film. This test for development is for bread and roll doughs, not pizza. Pizza dough is not fully developed at the mixer, instead, it receives most of its development through biochemical gluten development (fermentation). After the dough has been in the cooler for about 24 hours, you should be able to stretch the dough in your fingers and form a very thin, translucent gluten film.

Of course, the above quote is with respect to use of a commercial mixer. Also, as you may know, Peter Reinhart is an advocate of using the “windowpane” test, along with an autolyse-like rest period. Since Peter’s experience comes primarily out of bread-making, it is not surprising that he would be an advocate of both the windowpane test and autolyse. Other culinary notables, including Jeffrey Steingarten and Alton Brown, also espouse the windowpane test.

I might also add that the type of flour used can be a factor. I know that you use a lot of 00 flour, David, and in my experience the types of tests mentioned above do not work as well as with a lower protein/gluten flour. Similarly, when cornmeal is mixed in with a flour.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #441 on: July 27, 2006, 09:55:52 AM »
anyway, back to the original question about ny street pizza places using a rest period (for their dough) or not... it does make sense to let the flour hydrate...  for some reason i'd be surprised if a rest period does not exist.

abc,

It is possible that there may be some form of rest period since it takes a finite amount of time to take a large dough mass out of a mixer and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the dough sometimes sits in the mixer for a while, whether intentional or not, before the division and scaling steps are implemented. In a sense, I suppose the "rest" would be like an Italian riposo.

Peter

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #442 on: July 27, 2006, 10:29:04 AM »
I had baked TL style pizzas a long time ago. Even with fresh or instant yeast as pre ferment.
With and without autolyse.
The flour that I use to use is, I believe, a low protein one (there are not sufficient information about it)
I had never obtained a good windowpane test when just take the dough from mixing.
After a rest/rise period (with and without resting in refrigerator) the windowpane develop well.
In fact, I do not need to do this test, since shaping the dough shows clearly the develop of it.
I am pretty happy with this type of dough, even without windowpane!

Luis

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #443 on: July 27, 2006, 10:48:43 AM »
Luis,

When I first started experimenting with and writing about the Lehmann dough, I advocated use of the windowpane test. That was because that was all I knew. Even now, there is nothing per se wrong with using the windowpane test. However, there is an increased chance that in trying to get the "perfect" windowpane, people will keep on kneading and end up overkneading the dough. With the typical KitchenAid or equivalent home stand mixer, we are unlikely in any event to get the type of finished dough that comes from using a commercial mixer, and even a high-end home mixer such as the DLX or Santos mixer.

Peter

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #444 on: July 27, 2006, 12:21:59 PM »
Peter:

As always I agree with you.
I was only trying to explain that I felt myself hungry and/or frustrated because the dough never had passed the windowpane test (that not only you, as a lot of people advocate for).
In place of that, I decided to forget this test and go with the path to a better dough/pizza. No more frustrations, satisfaction in place. And better pizza each time. No matter about windowpane…
Of course, all and each of the threats in this site were read. Some ones applied and some others forgot (auch, I do need to read them again…)
The message is: no one sentence is permanent, no one fact will destroy the previous learned steps, and you always need to be ‘always learned’.
And: do not worry, be happy (extremes out, please)

Luis

Offline David

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #445 on: July 27, 2006, 12:35:46 PM »
I might also add that the type of flour used can be a factor. I know that you use a lot of 00 flour, David, and in my experience the types of tests mentioned above do not work as well as with a lower protein/gluten flour. Similarly, when cornmeal is mixed in with a flour.

Peter


Thanks Peter.You are right about my personal choices.and i have very little knowledge or experience of making other types of Pizza or using other ingredients.I'm still trying to nail a Neapolitan !
I will venture out in the future to other methods/doughs/ingredients.I just jumped to the assumption as this was in the TLNY thread.I believe it is extremely confusing,particularly to a newcomer,when you read these methods and procedures from "Authoroties" and yet inevitably do not achieve the desired results.I see that the person who raised the question was using a 12% protein flour.
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Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #446 on: July 27, 2006, 12:54:13 PM »
abc,

It is possible that there may be some form of rest period since it takes a finite amount of time to take a large dough mass out of a mixer and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the dough sometimes sits in the mixer for a while, whether intentional or not, before the division and scaling steps are implemented. In a sense, I suppose the "rest" would be like an Italian riposo.

Peter

yep, that's what i was thinking... they may say 'auto wat'??  but if you were allowed to watch them prep the dough in the back, you'd spot when the dough was 'resting'.

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #447 on: July 27, 2006, 01:03:20 PM »
Luis,

When I first started experimenting with and writing about the Lehmann dough, I advocated use of the windowpane test. That was because that was all I knew. Even now, there is nothing per se wrong with using the windowpane test. However, there is an increased chance that in trying to get the "perfect" windowpane, people will keep on kneading and end up overkneading the dough. With the typical KitchenAid or equivalent home stand mixer, we are unlikely in any event to get the type of finished dough that comes from using a commercial mixer, and even a high-end home mixer such as the DLX or Santos mixer.

Peter

ouch... so a commerical mixer will give a less oxidized, yet more well churned batch of flour and water?  (better developed gluten?)

if we use a kitchenaid and get it 'finished enough' as a commerical dough, it's going to have more oxygen than a commercial dough?

on the other hand, aren't pizza doughs not supposed to be as mixer developed as bread dough (the opininon of one)


how do we compensate at home with a product of a kitchenaid, being so 'inadequate'?   :-\


longer time in the refridgerator?

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #448 on: July 27, 2006, 02:34:16 PM »
abc,

Since I don't work with commercial mixers, I can't tell you how much they oxidize the flour/dough during mixing/kneading. However, I do know that some kinds of commercial mixers do a better job of introducing oxygen into the dough than others. The oxygen is necessary for the yeast to start to reproduce, and the yeast dutifully gobbles up all the oxygen in fairly short order. It's excessive kneading of the dough that oxidizes the flour/dough and damages carotenoids. Interestingly, this brings us back to your earlier post about using autolyse. If you want to reduce oxidation of the dough, then autolyse is one way to do it because one of its benefits is to reduce the total knead time, thereby reducing the extent of possible oxidation. Another way to reduce the oxidation is to put the salt into the dough early, as discussed at this King Arthur piece on salt: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html. However, doing this with an autolyse is generally discouraged because of the effects of salt on yeast and other ingredients in the dough during the autolyse.

As for the typical home KitchenAid stand mixer, beyond stepping up to a DLX, Santos or other comparable mixer (maybe even one of the high-end KitchenAid models with a C-hook) or even a low-level commercial mixer, I believe the best way to use it is to 1) combine the ingredients in the early stages to increase hydration of the flour without trying to develop the gluten (which means either mixing by hand or at low mixer speed, such as Stir or 1 speed), and then 2) using low/medium mixer speeds (mostly speeds 1 and 2) to do the kneading in the final stages to develop the gluten without overkneading the dough. This is somewhat an oversimplified version of the methods I use and have described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. Using an autolyse in the context of these methods is also an option but some rearrangement of the steps may be required depending on whether one wishes to use the classic autolyse or some variation of it.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:10:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #449 on: July 27, 2006, 09:20:43 PM »
quite fascinating stuff...  Pete, what do you feel if anything, is holding your own pizza, from sitting at the counter of some street corner pizzeria?



i was experimenting with a 30min rest this evening...  pizza dough, that is.

i put water first into the mix bowl, then topped with KASL and yeast... mixed until there was no dry flour, which took about 2min for 2 18" doughs... then let it rest 30min.  at that point i added salt and oil and mixed maybe another 2 min... i couldn't tell where i was going with the mixing, that's why i stopped at about 2 min.

before i added the oil and salt, i felt the dough and it felt satiny... i was doing a quick non elaborate window pane test and it seemed possible.

DEFINITELY used less electrical mixing to get this satin feel vs. a non rested dough...

i'm going to leave this in the fridge for at least 48hrs because i won't be free to be in the kitchen this weekend... i might not make pizza out of it, maybe breadsticks... but thought I'd report my findings in mixing dough.

As usual, I use iced water to keep temps cool as per spec on the lehmann recipe... but with a 30min rest... the dough in this summer temp, lost its coolness...  Hope this isn't going to impact my product and confuse the analysis of the final product.


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #450 on: July 27, 2006, 10:05:41 PM »
abc,

That's an interesting question. I have always felt that the weakest links in the home pizza maker's chain are the mixer and the oven, and that the strongest link is the ingredients, which can be the same as or even better than what professional pizza operators use. But, like most of our members, I have tried to get the most out of my mixer and oven and, in many cases, I would say that my pizzas are better than many that I have bought, including in New York City. Even when I have had to play around with screens and stones and tiles and rack positions and oven temperatures, broilers, and times, I have been able to get satisfying pizzas in just about any size I want, from 9 inches all the way up to 18 inches in size, which, as you know, is a typical NY size. Of course, where you live in the NYC area there are some of the finest pizza operators in the country, and it is quite likely that my pizzas would come up short by comparison. But, that has never been a concern. What interests me more is being to make many different kinds of pizzas and have fun doing it.

You also raise a good point about the dough temperature. When the temperature is warm, as it has been in many parts of the country lately, using a long autolyse or other rest period will allow the dough to warm up faster and possibly exceed the desired finished dough temperature, even when the water is quite cool to begin with. If you end up with a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, you should still be OK. But, if you are over 90 degrees for some reason, then the dough will ferment quite a bit faster and possibly foreshorten its useful life by a few to several hours. And it might be more extensible than usual. That's why it is a good idea to use cool water. Shortening the autolyse to around 20 minutes will also help, as will using a slightly bit less yeast, or simply adding the yeast after the autolyse, which will delay the start of the fermentation process yet retain the benefits of the autolyse.

Peter

Offline enchant

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #451 on: July 29, 2006, 07:43:53 AM »
You should feel free to tweak the amounts of flour and water. For the sake of consistency, I always start with accurate amounts weighed on my digital scale but almost always make slight adjustments in the bowl to compensate for the minor variations in flour due to age, moisture content, humidity, storage effects, etc.
[ ... ]
What is most important is to be able to identify the condition of the dough that leads to the best results. That comes with experience and practice and no amount of words or photos can convey that condition with precision. But once you achieve a successful dough on a repeatable basis, you will always remember it and be able to replicate it pretty much at will. Even then, the dough will not be identical every time but the variations will be small.
After making several doughs, I was getting comfortable about how the dough should look as it was finishing up mixing.  I found that there should be a very small amount that wanted to stick to the bottom of the bowl (while the rest clung to the dough hook).

Last week, during the very high humidity, I made a dough that seemed a little wet after adding ingredients in the usual amounts.  I added flour till it was the consistency that I was used to (a little clinging to the bowl).  However, when I went to shape it two days later, it seemed pretty wet and was difficult to handle.

During the high humidity, should I be trying to make my dough dryer than normal?  So even though it appears in the mixer to have the consistency that was giving me great results in May and June, should I be going for even dryer than that?

And is the worst summer ever for making pizzas???
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 07:46:01 AM by enchant »
--pat--

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #452 on: July 29, 2006, 09:26:02 AM »
Pat,

The subject of humidity is one that draws a lot of strong opinion, but in my opinion humidity gets blamed more often than it really deserves. To be sure, humidity is a factor, as I noted recently in another thread (on the moisture content of flour) by quoting the following from industry technical data:

If the relative humidity of the atmosphere in which it is stored is greater than 60%, flour will gain moisture, and if the humidity is less than 60%, it will lose moisture.

However, the effects of humidity are not wildly dramatic, amounting to only a few percent at best according to the source of the above quote. And in most cases, it can be compensated for by making fairly minor adjustments to the flour and/or water, especially if the flour and water are carefully weighed out in advance. In your case, absent human error in weighing out the flour and water, I think it was a finished dough temperature that may have been too high that caused the problem you encountered--specifically, because of an accelerated rate of fermentation due to the higher finished dough temperature. The same thing can happen if you used volume measurements rather than weights, so it is not simply a matter of how the flour and water are measured out.

To avoid the above type of problem, my practice is to temperature adjust the water I use to be sure that the finished dough temperature is around 75 degrees F. In most cases, I actually do a mathematical calculation to determine the water temperature required to get that finished dough temperature, but in some cases I just use cooler water in the summer and warmer water in the winter. But, either way, I always measure the finished dough temperature in relation to the 75 degrees F targeted finished dough temperature. Knowing the actual dough temperature tells me how long the dough is likely to be usable, and prompts me to use the dough earlier or later than I may have originally planned based on the differential and its direction (above or below 75 degrees).

An alternative way of dealing with the seasonal variations discussed above is to use a bit less yeast in the summer and a bit more in winter, usually accompanied by using cooler water in the summer and warmer water in the winter. This combination, if properly applied, should keep the dough from overfermenting in the summer and underfermenting in the winter and allow the doughs to be used within their normal windows of usability. This combination also helps to compensate in part for the fact that a refrigerator is likely to run a bit warmer in the summer and a bit cooler in the winter, both of which will affect the rate of fermentation.

The condition of the dough as you described it is consistent with overfermentation of the dough. What happens is that the enzymes in the flour, namely the protease enzymes, attack the gluten and cause the release of water, resulting in a wet and overly slack dough that is hard to handle, even if you try to compensate by adding additional flour. Had you used the dough a day earlier, I think you might have been OK.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #453 on: July 29, 2006, 10:30:50 AM »
Pat,

To further underscore the point I made about finished dough temperature in my last post, you may find Replies 5-8, and especially those of member Trinity, of interest, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3386.msg28689.html#msg28689. Trin is a professional baker who deals with finished dough temperatures all the time and is well familiar with the effects of seasonal variations.

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #454 on: July 29, 2006, 01:05:45 PM »
abc,


You also raise a good point about the dough temperature. When the temperature is warm, as it has been in many parts of the country lately, using a long autolyse or other rest period will allow the dough to warm up faster and possibly exceed the desired finished dough temperature, even when the water is quite cool to begin with. If you end up with a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, you should still be OK. But, if you are over 90 degrees for some reason, then the dough will ferment quite a bit faster and possibly foreshorten its useful life by a few to several hours. And it might be more extensible than usual. That's why it is a good idea to use cool water. Shortening the autolyse to around 20 minutes will also help, as will using a slightly bit less yeast, or simply adding the yeast after the autolyse, which will delay the start of the fermentation process yet retain the benefits of the autolyse.

Peter

pete, examining my current batch of kasl dough with the rest technique, it looks like it has risen a bit more in the fridge than usual (w/o rest) either this was due to 30min at 82degree kitchen (which i had temped the final dough) or the auto technique promotes a more fluid rise, and i can get by w/ even LESS yeast....

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #455 on: July 29, 2006, 05:07:45 PM »
Hi,

I'm just going to make a few very quick suggestions to the current discussion about temperature, autolyse, room temperature rise and refrigerated rise and about mixing for direct mixed doughs (indirect contain preferments, starters, etc and have different techniques and considerations)

Pete, you are very right to assume mixing in a commercial mixer, using a commercial batch size is a very different animal than mixing up enough dough for 1 or 2 pizzas. There are surely many similarities, but different considerations must be applied. As you mentioned, humidity has much less to do with it, if the ingredients are weighed out. Temperature is the factor to be recalculated. I look to have a lower finished dough temperature than Tom, who recommends 80-85 degrees. I prefer a finished dough temp of 70-75...I'll get to why soon. I usually start out with a water temperature of 60-65 and in
the summer, or if the kitchen is particularly hot, 50 degrees. My goal is to keep my dough as cool as possible and to avoid as much mixing friction as possible. I only take flour temperatures when I suspect it is either ultra hot or ultra cold in the kitchen and I may have to compensate with the water temperature. Otherwise, I only take the water temperature and finished dough temp.

That being said, the heat build up from mixing friction in a commercial mixer is pretty rapid and once the dough mass gets warm, it takes longer for it to cool down, so trying to keep it cooler in the first place is always my goal. In a small mixer, friction should be less of a factor, except that most home cooks (and commercial ones too) tend to over-mix and the doughs come off the mixer warmer than they should. Because I want to undergo long slow fermentation, it is imperative that the dough be cooler than what is usually recommended.

Here are some mixing pointers for a small mixer:
invest in a scale and always weigh out everything in your formula (I know it seems like a pain, but it is the only true way to gain absolute consistency)

make sure your water temperature is around 65 degrees (if you are using bakers yeast, the lower temperature won't be a problem, but if using ADY and IDY you may want to hydrate the yeasts in a bit of the formula water that is warm. (in commercial situations, IDY can be sprinkled right into the flour, but for small batches such as for home use, the dough mass will be remain too cool to properly activate the yeast.)

pour all of the water in to the bowl of your mixer (reserving the hydrated yeast) add the salt and then the flour, and then crumble the cake yeast or add the hydrated yeast.

Mix on the low speed if possible or only until there is no white raw flour visible. Allow to rest for 5 minutes. This is the adaptation of the autolyse method in pizza making. Italian pizza makers refer to this period as riposo. Pizza dough requirements are slightly different than bread dough, but essentially, the rest period allows the flour to become fully hydrated which is otherwise known as biochemical gluten development. This "rest" period differs in time depending upon mixer types, batch sizes and ambient room temperature. For a small home batch, with a home mixer, 5 minutes should be sufficient.

BGD will aid in shortening mix out time and promotes less degrading of protein while contributing to the extensibilty properties and the over-all tenderness of the finished product.

Mix out time will vary with type of flour, hydration level and batch size. (I am talking about a dough of 65% hydration using a 12.5-13% protein content--American flour, not 00)
Rather than being a slave to time, which is different for every formulation, you must learn to see, hear and feel the signs that  your dough has properly mixed out. Once you've developed the dough in this manner, you can time each sequence. However, if you change anything in the formula, then the sequence and timing may change too.

When using a planetary style mixer (like a kitchen aid), try to use a very, very slow speed. It is not necessary to knock the dough about the bowl. Mix until the dough pulls away from the sides of the bowl and you hear a gentle smacking and sucking sound as the dough pushes and pulls from the sides of the bowl.

The dough may appear to have a dimpled cottage cheese texture--this is fine. If you take out a silver dollar size ball of dough, lightly flatten it and roll it over your knuckles, you will see that it either tears or it stretches. If it tears, a bit more mixing time is needed. (this is not the gluten vale test , the dough is not stretched out to that point, we are not looking at it's extensibility qualities, we only want to see if it is properly mixed out.)

Working at home you can do 2 things at this point: you can continue mixing until the dough is smooth, or you can finish it by hand.
Why finish by hand? because for such a small amount, especially if you are using a kitchen aid type mixer, you want to treat the dough as gently as possible.
Also,if temperature is a factor, take the temperature of the dough before you actually finish it. If it is at or beyond your goal, finish the dough by hand and it won't raise it too much higher.
if you are under your goal, finish it in the mixer.

Bench rest, or room temperature fermentation or first rise: how long? Commercial pizzerias bench rest or let the dough rise in bulk to save fermentation time in the refrigerator. Allowing dough to initially rise at room temperature hastens the maturation qualities that would be found in say a two or three day dough, but because they need to use the dough within 36, they give it a long initial unrefrigerated fermentation period. The understanding is that, this long initial rise will hasten the deveopment, but will decrease total life of the dough. It really depends upon what the shop's production needs are.

For a small home batch, the temperature factor becomes super crucial in that the small piece of dough will rise much faster in higher temperatures and will expend itself fairly quickly. Unless you are going to use the next day, or the room temperature is quite low--or that the amount of yeast and starter compensates for it, bench rising isn't all that necessary for small batches of dough.

Bakers and commercial pizza makers have a set schedule every day, so they know exactly what amount of time and at what temperature they will, or won't bench rise their dough.  Most of them do not bench rise, they prefer the controlled environment of the cooler, allowing for a long slow first rise in the bucket, and scalling and shaping 12 hours later. Others scale and shape right off the bat and refrigerate to use 24 to 36 hours later. There is no set way.

In AIB (Tom) recommends the dough to come off the mixer at 80 degrees optimum, this is for a straight mixed dough, that is immediately scaled, shaped and refrigerarated by cross stacking the dough trays for a couple of hours until the doughs completely cooled down. The dough is ready to use the next day with a maximum of 2 days and possibly 3 if the cooler is really, really cold. If you are working with any kind of preferment or starter, that temperature is way, too high...

The main problem with this forum, is that you guys are so prolific and so varied that I'm not sure how to address all of the things that are going on here. I'm not sure if what I've just written will be of any help. But if you come away from this with anything, it will be about the importance of temperature. Adapting home versions of commercial formulas is a challenge, but is extremely rewarding.

Evelyne



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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #456 on: July 29, 2006, 06:30:42 PM »
Evelyne,

For the most part, what you have said is consistent with what I have done and recommended to others with respect to the Lehmann NY style dough. Like you, I started with a finished dough temperature target of about 80-85 degrees F, per the recommendation of Tom, but later went to 75 degrees F when it dawned on me that a home refrigerator operated several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler. Since the Lehmann NY style dough formulation was intended to be used in a cold fermentation environment, the general advice has been to use the cold fermentation and get the dough balls as fast as possible into the refrigerator. I and others have made same-day, room-temperature fermented versions of the Lehmann dough, including 2-3 hour doughs and even naturally leavened versions, but most of the doughs tend to be cold fermented doughs using commercial yeast (mostly ADY and IDY because of their greater availability and lower cost to home pizza makers).

I found 65+% hydration to be too high for the Lehmann dough and ended up with 63%, which seemed to be the optimum for my purposes. I, too, have recommended using low mixer speeds, and being careful not to overknead. I am an advocate of using scales to weigh flour and water, although many of our members prefer to use volume measurements. I use a spreadsheet and baker's percents to do all the heavy math lifting and, for some time, have specified ingredients in the dough formulations I post by weight and volumes. I didn't want only scale users to make the Lehmann doughs. As much as anything I do on this forum, my objective is to teach people as best I can about dough making, just as Tom and you have done for many years. I'd like people to know the whys in addition to the hows because I think it will make them better pizza makers.

I personally am not as big an advocate or fan as others of using autolyse with the basic Lehmann dough although I have liked it when using a natural preferment. To me, the crumb is too soft and bread-like. But I seem to be in the minority on this matter. I will agree, however, that autolyse is a good way of getting good hydration, especially for hand-kneaded doughs using high-protein, high-gluten flours as are most commonly used by our members for Lehmann doughs, along with bread flour.

Where I see one point of departure from what you have said is in relation to the use of IDY. On occasions where the amount of IDY was so small (e.g., less than 1/8 t.) that I chose to hydrate it for dispersion purposes, my usual practice and recommendation has been to add the IDY directly to the flour, as is typically recommended by the yeast producers for home use. I usually add the IDY to the flour as soon as I weight out the flour and assumed that there would be at least partial hydration due to the moisture in the flour, as is frequently mentioned by the yeast producers.

Thank you for helping crystallize the processes for our members.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 06:48:15 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #457 on: July 30, 2006, 03:19:23 PM »
pete, you find a rested dough doesn't give your dough as many 'rustic' air pockets of varying size? 

i wonder what then if there is in the science of what happens?  a better hydrated, less mixed dough has more uniform, nonvaried air pockets?


i didn't find this to be the case with my recent kasl dough which i made breadsticks with., I got interesting airpockets, 48hr rise.


Evelyne, when can we examine pictures of YOUR pizzas?  :pizza:
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 03:37:30 PM by abc »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #458 on: July 30, 2006, 04:06:57 PM »
abc,

If I understood your question correctly, I take it that you are referring to the resting of the dough on the bench in preparation for dressing and baking the pizza.

It's hard to generalize on the matter of bubbling in the crust since there can be many causes beyond whether the dough was or was not subjected to a period of rest before using. As I noted recently on another thread, the main causes of bubbling are the following: 1) Underfermentation or overfermentation of the dough (with underfermentation being the more common); 2) Using dough that is too cold at the time of shaping; 3) Using too little or too much yeast (with too much being more common); 4) Using incorrect or insufficient docking; and 5) Using an oven temperature that is too high, or some other oven-related problem. Of course, any combination of these will also produce the tendency to bubbling.

I have also discovered that there is sometimes an element of mystery surrounding bubbling. You often get them when you least expect them, and it is often difficult to diagnose the cause. Also, some dough formulations are more prone to bubbling than others, which can confound attempts to diagnose. The Lehmann dough inherently doesn't seem to be prone to bubbling. Also, in your case, if you followed the normal dough processing steps with the Lehmann dough and you didn't use docking it seems safe to rule out reasons 2 through 5 based on what you said. That leave reason 1--underfermentation or overfermentation. As between underfermentation and overfermentation, overfermentation strikes me as clearly the more likely suspect after 48 hours of fermentation in a warm, summertime setting. Remember, overfermentation comes in degrees, from mild to severe/fatal. With slight overfermentation, you could have gotten bubbles without affecting the overall quality of the breadsticks (or a pizza).

The degree of hydration that you mention can be a factor but only insofar as a high hydration dough will ferment faster than a low hydration dough. But it is not a cause of overfermentation as such. Similarly, an underkneaded dough will also be a factor because an underkneaded dough will usually not ferment as fast as a properly kneaded dough, but, again, it is not a cause of overfermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 09:39:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #459 on: July 30, 2006, 05:36:52 PM »
ABC

Do you mean air pockets as in open hole cell structure of the crumb or bubbles that occur in the crust that occur during baking? It seems that Peter was talking about bubbling.

If you are talking about the cell structure of the crumb, the open hole structure is achieved with a higher hydration--at least 60%. Some formulas achieve that same structure with a bit less moisture (58%) but they generally contain a preferment of some kind. If you are looking to utilize high hydration, it will be important to use a flour that has high extensibility and gassing properties. You will also have to use high baking temperatures to get the oven spring necessary for those results.

The autolyse method, as I have adapted to pizza making is really about achieving proper hydration of the flour and creating a dough that will mix out quicker and with much less agitation. These techniques I learned from bread baking, but when applied to pizza, different results are desired. When I teach this method to proffesional pizza makers, I use Tom's definition for the process: Biochemical Gluten Development or BGD as it applies to pizza. The initial BGD rest occurs at the start of the mixing process and since it tends to keep the dough temperature down. I highly recommend trying to keep the dough temperatures as cool as possible for doughs that are to go under long slow fermentation. Minimizing the mixing also helps to promote the open hole cell structure as well. If you are using miniscule amounts of yeast, I would skip the bench rest, unless you plan on using the dough within 24-36 hours--or sooner.

The latest pizza I made was last week for PMQ which I will include since it is made with my dough, but baked in my home oven in a black pan at about 450 degrees. For the magazine, I go for a generic NY look, so the lovely open hole structure that I normally achieve is not brought out in these pies. When I'm styling for the magazine, I'm looking to have a more even colored and uniform type of pizza because the story is really about the topping. So bare that in mind. Until I have time to go and photograph one of my pizzas, if you have a chance to see any of the reruns from the History Channel Pizza thing, they show my pizza in lovely detail pretty much all over the episode. It's the pie with the charred puffy edges, handmade cheese (mine), hand crushed tomatoes and beautiful basil leaves. It got so well done because the camera man was filming and filming it in the oven, despite my protests that it was about to become a thermal runaway. The camera crew devoured that pizza seconds after they filmed it!