Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 503960 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #600 on: February 17, 2007, 04:42:56 PM »
petesopizza,

If you check out the Lehmann “Roadmap” at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193/topicseen.html#msg13193, you will see several posts that describe the use of a food processor to make a Lehmann NY style pizza dough. A food processor has a very high friction factor, so it is important to keep the dough as cold as possible, as by using cold water and the pulse feature. You may also find this post of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19291/topicseen.html#msg19291 (Reply 1).

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #601 on: February 19, 2007, 06:39:50 PM »
Made what is so far the best NY style yet. The only problem was the rim of the crust was slightly "bready" tasting due to the regular bread flour I had to use.

Recipe:

Gold Medal Harvest King Flour- 2.75 Cups
H2O - 1.25 Cups
Kosher Salt 1 heaping Tsp
ADY 1/4 Tsp

Dissolved salt in water then added flour.
Added the yeast in for the last two minutes of kneading using my food processor pulse and hand kneading.

Finish Dough Temp - 86.2

Left it on the counter for about 10 minutes punched it down and coated it with olive oil and threw it in the fridge for 2 days.

I took pics with my cell phone but this is the only one that came out semi decent. It was a beautiful pizza but you couldnt tell with the pics.. :)



Someday I will make money from this obsession.

Offline petesopizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #602 on: February 19, 2007, 06:42:21 PM »
 oh yeah cooked it at 500 for about 15 minutes
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 06:44:02 PM by petesopizza »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #603 on: February 19, 2007, 09:41:50 PM »
petesopizza,

I know from a couple of your earlier posts on another thread that you are an advocate of adding the yeast (ADY) at the end of the dough making process rather than at the beginning, which is the method specified by Tom Lehmann. I used your idea (which member giotto also uses) as part of a series of experiments using a new KitchenAid dough making method. As part of the experiments, I tried using the yeast (in my case it was IDY) at the beginning and also at the end. I used the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for both experiments. Since your posts inspired me to conduct the two yeast experiments, I thought you might be interested in the results, which are detailed and shown here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33253.html#msg33253.

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #604 on: March 10, 2007, 11:35:07 AM »

Lehmann's recipe technique of refrigeration for dough development through retardation is for both dough maturation for flavor as well as convenience in a commercial operation, is it not.

the dough balls are shaped and presumably on a large tray with some spacing between each other, but are not expected to grow into one another and become one big glob because the yeast activity is so hampered by the low temps.

I know this has been touched on before not just on this thread but probably bits and pieces on others...
the Lehmann recipe is rather a modern one?


How did old time NY pizza operators do their dough.
1. i presume NO cold temp retardation... so they used even LESS yeast than what the Lehmann technique calls for?, or they make dough every night before the business day's use.  Did they actually lack dough flavor?  I know a 2 day Lehmann has less developed flavor than 3-4 day in my own experience.

Even current day mom/pop NYC neighborhood corner shops typically keep 1 dough ball in 1 metal stackable bowl... (i should ask), they don't look like they retard their dough via low temps...  so assuming they are kept 'room temp' overnight or however long or short timewise for dough flavor development... i've never seen the dough rising out of the bowl stacks due to rampant yeast activity or even sticking to the metal tops of each stacked bowl...

and i'd have to say their doughs have good dough flavor.




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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #605 on: March 10, 2007, 01:42:28 PM »
abc,

The Lehmann dough formulation has always been a commercial recipe intended to rely on cold fermentation. The recipe first appeared in the PMQ Recipe Bank in January of 2002, but I am sure it is quite a bit older than that. Since Evelyne Slomon worked with Tom Lehmann on the recipe or certain aspects of it, she may remember when it first came into being.

In a post a while back, Evelyne discussed how pizza dough was made before refrigeration, as indicated in this excerpt:

Before refrigeration, the dough was made early in the day and used later in the day just as with traditional Neapolitan pizza. Refrigeration allowed the pizza maker to better control fermentation. Long, slow and cold fermentation influenced New York pizza makers at least 50-60 years ago. Although Totonno continued to make his dough as it was always made---with a long slow room temperature rise on the same day. Lombardi went on to embrace the refrigerated long slow fermentation method. (from http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32476.html#msg32476, Reply 8).

It is possible to make a same-day room-temperature fermented dough, or possibly an overnight dough, and achieve good crust flavor. This should be achievable with the Lehmann dough recipe as well. As you might expect, you would have to have the right amount of yeast and temperatures (mainly the finished dough temperature and the room temperature) such that the dough is ready when you need it. The amount of yeast might have to be adjusted from time to time to compensate for room temperature changes (e.g, summer vs. winter), but that shouldn’t be a problem. Whether the amount will be more or less than a typical Lehmann dough will depend on the the intended usable lifespan of the dough and the temperatures involved.

Peter

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #606 on: March 12, 2007, 04:04:18 PM »
Hi All,

Before 1992 Tom Lehmann did not have any idea of how to go about formulating an authentic New York Style pizza. Back in the late 1980's, he had been paid to reverse engineer MY pizza at Pizzico Restaurant where I was producing what we now call artisan pizza. Tom had no idea how I got the results I got. He tried looking at our garbage and ordering pizza after pizza to be dissected and analyzed--and he still couldn't figure it out.

Tom and I knew each other from Pizza Today, we were both writers and seminar presenters. I had even attended his dough seminars at the show. What did I learn at those seminars? That we were on opposite ends of the pizzamaking spectrum. His seminars were all about how to handle additives, extenders and conditioners, and how to use sheeters for pizza "production". My seminars were on how to make pizza the traditional way, using nothing more than flour, water, yeast and salt. I preached the gospel of long slow fermentation and of hand forming and hand stretching. I was the first to write about wood-burning ovens and how they were the pizza makers ultimate tool in the mid 1980's and received a lot of flak from many different factions of the commercial pizza industry about how those ovens were merely a "fad" and how they could NEVER be used for high volume because they couldn't bake pizza fast enough!!  :-D They simply would not believe that a pizza could be cooked in two minutes--or less in a proper wood-burning oven.

While I always had my audience, most of the industry thought I was nuts--for them, pizza was all about ease of manufacture (make it simple enough for monkies to make)ease of production--again people were deemed a liability, so rounding and sheeting dough was left to machines. Ingredients were after-thoughts--cheaper being better. For the life of me, getting operators to think about fermenting their dough as little as over-night was an impossible task. Never mind that all they had to do was start their process one day sooner, or that their dough would gain in flavor, texture and color, or, that it would be so much easier to stretch out. Even the the fact that excessive cost of all those conditioners and additives they were using, could be eliminated. Imagine, better tasting, better looking, easier to work with and CHEAPER to produce--yet pizza makers were not ready to embrace the use of "time" or better ingredients.

For the most part, pizza makers didn't have a clue about food cost or how to really calculate it. They thought--more expensive flour? High quality tomatoes and cheese? Forget it.
Crustwise, better quality flour was only a penny or two more, and even that cost was negligiable since the better flour had superior absorbtive qualities which provided them with a larger yield. There seemed to be no way to part them from their additives, conditioners and extenders, they were really brain-washed that they absolutely needed all of those products to produce pizza. Because they knew nothing of food cost, they didn't realize how much more the "crutches" actually cost them. Yet, even when presented with the facts, about how they weren't saving money they had absolutely no faith in placing production into human hands. The pizza industry, more specifically the ingredient and equipment manufacturers had convinced them that their products would save them on cost and labor--and would produce consistency. While I'll give them the consistency edge, albeit in a purely manufactured product sense, they were not saving money in any other sense and--they were producing crap. Pizza makers had been sold a bill of goods by the pizza industry and they simply did not want to fix something that was not in their view--broken.

I could go on and on, but I am merely trying to preface where my philosophy and methods were in comparison to Tom's. Tom stood for everything commercial in pizza and I stood for everything that was artisan and traditional. In 1992, when he asked me to teach my NY style at AIB, it was the first olive branch between the two segments. He was genuinely fascinated with my results and wanted to learn how I did it--and I wanted to reach a greater audience for my gospel of traditional pizza.

When Tom and I finally did get together at AIB, it was an epiphany for both of us: I learned about the scientific aspect of pizza and he learned about the old methods that were all but extinct in the commercial pizza world. My Totonno-Lombardi mentors had taught me to use flour that had a protein content far below the New York Style standard (12 to 12 1/2 percent)
Because AIB feared that my forumula would be too out there, we did include oil, a lot more yeast than I used and optional sugar. However, the original recipe I showed him how to do had a much higher moisture content than he was used to working with--60%. At the time, pizza doughs rarely went above 50 or 55 percent because they were routinely put through rounders and sheeters which don't work well with wet doughs.

It took quite a few years for Tom to actually embrace my formula because it was so different from his thing and the human factor was also a hinderance. But since Tom and I remained friends, and have taught together and given so many seminars together over the years, he has really come to understand the type of thing I do. During our last conversation, he went so far as to say that I'd succeeded in tipping the scales at AIB because his protege Jeff Zeak was a confirmed disciple of my philosophy and methodology as opposed to his! Jeff worked hand in hand with me at AIB for the last 15 years as my assistant and we've spent a lot of time talking and making pizza together. I always knew that Jeff was really into the whole artisan thing, but I didn't know how much so--Jeff will be taking over Tom's position at AIB when he retires. Tom's shoes are going to be some pretty big ones to fill, but I think that Jeff, who's had the best of both pizza worlds teach him, will turn out to be an excellent director.

Why tell you all that story?

Because the world of pizza was quite different than it is now. No one was looking to the old masters about how to make pizza. Using quality ingredients was just catching on, but using fermentation without crutches was pretty scarry for pizza makers then. Even now, with artisan pizza makers in the headlines, most of the industry doesn't really understand how to make this type of pizza.

Now, to answer your questions regarding same day fermentation:

Totonno's was the only place using the original sameday process that Lombardi used pre-refrigeration that does not employ the use of sugar. For one thing, the original Totonno's was only opened for dinner 3 nights a week--Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Jerry would make the dough early in the morning and leave it out at room temperature. He wasn't very scientific about it--amount of yeast and water temperature would fluctuate according to ambient temperature and season. He never measured; it was all done by feel. The last time I went to Totonno's in NYC and had pizza at lunch time, the dough hadn't risen enough yet.

Lombardi's dough (when it used to be made properly) was made with a different higher gluten flour and underwent refrigerated fermentation, the flavor of the crust varied because the dough could be up to 3 days old. The longer fermented doughs tended to have more flavor than "newer" ones. Totonno's crust was light as air and had a sweet wheat flavor--not sugar induced--wheat flavor. The combination of char and wheat flavor was a marriage made in heaven.

Alas, most NYC pizza makers started using lots of yeast, sugar and oil to push their dough so it could be used the same day--ready for lunch, so really only 3-4 hours. A whole faction of the pizza industry grew around controlling the dough. Additives and conditioners could cut production time to about 3-4 hours, without refrigeration. Pizza makers who used rounders and sheeters did not want a "live" fermented doughs because they did not want any open-holed cell structure to interfere with the sheeting process so these quick doughs fit the bill.

Because space is at such a premium in NYC. few pizza joints could afford proper coolers for over-night doughs, and they weren't about to pay labor to come in at 5 am to make dough, so they mastered the production of fast same day doughs. The best of these doughs have a good slightly sweet flavor. The crumb in soft and dense and the crust can be nicely crisp when properly baked. However, they lack the flavor and lightness of long fermented doughs that rely on the flour for flavor.

My recommendations for same day dough?

The same day dough that was posted at PMQ by Tom was the NYC dough that I developed and demonstrated at the Orlando Pizza Show. It is for a commercial batch that is ready to go in around 2 hours. He was making up this dough for my seminar:

100% Caputo 00 blue pizza flour
60% 70 degree water
1% IDY
2% Sea Salt (I always use sea salt--however you should note that sea salt is twice as salty as the same amount of regular salt)
5% olive oil
(He added the sugar as an option)

Place the water in the mixer, pour in the flour, yeast and salt.
Mix on low only until the raw flour dissappears
Then pour in the olive oil--down the sides of the bowl
Mix until the oil is incorporated.

Turn the mixer to second speed and mix one to three minutes more until the dough is silky. The dough should be about 80 degrees coming off the mixer.

Scale the dough and place in dough containers (individual or trays)

Refrigerate (under the dough preptable retarder) for about 1 hour (or allow to remain at room temperature 2 hours and use)
Bring out to room temperature 1 hour before use.

Results are light, crunchy, crispy and very flavorful--but not complex like traditional long fermented dough. But--waaay better than most NYC style pizza pushed with sugar and conditioners.

For a more artisan approach to same day dough.
Make a sponge using 50-50 water and flour with 3% IDY (for a dough that will be used in 3-4 hours--or up to 8 if refrigerated (not suitable for over-night)
You can figure the sponge at 15-25% of the flour weight or as a stand alone at 10-15% of the entire dough weight.

For example: For 20% starter: 10 pounds flour= 100% of the formula, the starter will be 32 ounces (20%), water at equal parts=32 ounces of flour and IDY at 3% (of the 32ounces)=.48 ounces
Mix together and allow to sit at room temperature 1 hour (72-77 degree room temperature)

This could be added to the above NYC formulation--with or without the olive oil
(Note the amount of flour and water--but not the yeast should be subtracted from the total) or, to make matters more confusing--you could simply make up the sponge using the same formulation given and add that to the entire recipe as given. The starter would be on top of the recipe. For example if the dough recipe equals 15 pounds of finished dough, if the starter is figured separately, the finished dough recipe would be about 17 pounds.

The starter will add flavor and texture to the dough and will make a real difference in the finished pizza--even if everything  was made in just a few hours.

Obviously, the longer the starter and fermentation process is drawn out, the better the results, but we are talking about getting the best results out of same day doughs here.

There are other ways to "push" the rapid fermentation of dough that do not involve crutches...and that will actually produce something that tastes really, really good.

Hope this isn't too confusing :chef:




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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #607 on: March 12, 2007, 06:06:09 PM »
Evelyne,

Fortunately, since the beginning of this thread, the Lehmann dough formulation has remained pretty basic, with only flour, water, yeast, salt, and oil (minimal). (Sugar is optional.)

I'm somewhat surprised that you were able to get Tom to consider working with the Caputo 00 flour. In the past, if his posts at the PMQ TT are any indication, he would recommend flours other than 00 when asked about using 00 flour. Did you influence him on this point or did he come to it on his own?

In the Caputo dough formulation you set forth in your last post you didn't indicate how much dough one might use to make a particular size pizza. Having worked quite a bit with 00 doughs, I have found that the texture and finished characteristics of the crust can vary quite considerably depending on the amount of dough in relation to a particular pizza size. Can you give us an idea of how much dough to use to make, say, a 12" pizza?

I noticed your reference to the difference between sea salt and regular salt. I have weighed equal quantities of different sea salts and table salt and found their weights to differ but not by all that much. Can you clarify what you meant by your parenthetical comment on the two salts, and also indicate what brand of sea salt you recommend?

Thanks.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #608 on: March 12, 2007, 06:42:05 PM »
(I always use sea salt--however you should note that sea salt is twice as salty as the same amount of regular salt)

Unlike salt grinding, this is a legitimate property of sea salt.  Salts other than sodium chloride, such as calcium chloride, change the ionic strength of the sea salt as a whole.  However, my admittedly hasty readings indicate that the sea salt I use (Alessi Mediterranean Fine Sea Salt) is only about 1.5 times saltier than pure sodium chloride.

- red.november

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #609 on: March 12, 2007, 07:49:04 PM »
Hi Pete,

The 00 flour was my choice. Tom had the mixer and the dough prep set up during the show, so I gave him the formula to make my pizza for my seminar. PMQ had me judging the pizza contest right up until it was time to give my seminar, so I didn't have time to prep the dough myself.

Admittedly, I too, am not a big fan of 00, but it does work rather well for a real quick rise using a direct mix. The dough ball should be 7 ounces, but you can go to 8 if you like the crust a bit thicker--that is for a 12 inch pie.

Regarding sea salt, I get mine in bulk from Giusto's because that's all we use at the restaurant. At home I use La Baleine, fine sea salt from France. Sea salt will always be saltier than regular salt, how much? Depends on the salt, the salt we get from Giusto's is exactly 2x saltier and we had to adjust all of our house recipes accordingly. The Baleine salt is not quite as salty as the Giusto's. I think it is a waste to put say grey sea salt or extra fancy natural flavored salts in dough--on top of the pizza, yes, but not in the dough. If you should decide to go with sea salt, try backing off your regular amount of salt by 20-25% and see how it tastes. You can always increase or decrease. Each time you use a different brand of sea salt, you'll have to go through the same procedure as they do vary from brand to brand.

I've always cooked with sea salt, since that is what we used in France where I first learned how to cook when I was a kid. I think it makes a nice difference in pizza and bread in general. I'm a huge fan of coarse grey salt from the northern coast of France--it is absolutely fantastic on grilled meats and fish--and even on poached vegetables--yum.


Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #610 on: March 12, 2007, 08:03:20 PM »
oops, I forgot to mention that other 11.5 percent to 12.50 percent flours could be used in this formula as well. I have found that the 00 is better formulated for very quick rises and gives better results.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #611 on: March 12, 2007, 08:18:04 PM »
the salt we get from Giusto's is exactly 2x saltier

How was that determination made?

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #612 on: March 13, 2007, 12:34:34 AM »
The salt determination has been made through a nonscientific method--trial and error. When reformulating our recipes using this salt, we found that adjusting all of our salt amounts to 50% of the prior amounts gave us the results we wanted. I'm sure there's a scientific way of checking it out but I don't know how to analyze or where to look for exact amounts of saltiness. Most of the sea salts I've used--that are white and fine fall into the 2X-1 1/2X--why, I don't know. If you can explain to me technically how to determine the amount of saltiness in sea salt, I would be much obliged.  :chef:


Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #613 on: March 13, 2007, 03:13:56 AM »
Evelyne,

I think that perhaps because of the way you tested the saltiness, you are actually measuring a couple different changes, not just the direct change in salt.  By using sea salt in your dough, you cause several things to take place such as stronger protein bonding [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_bridge_(protein) ] and influencing altered microorganism behavior just as two examples.  These changes have a cascading effect on protein related mouth-feel, which can have an effect on the rate of dissolution in the mouth; the length of time microorganisms can thrive in acetic acid (up to 8x longer with calcium chloride); and microorganism byproduct output, which can affect the interaction between the salt and ion receptors on the tongue.  Even a change in the amount of organic acids produced by the yeast can have a major influence on the perception of saltiness.  In fact, there is a lot of research being performed out there in an effort to provide salt flavor while using less sodium by the inclusion of organic acids (e.g. citric, acetic) in food products.

Another difference between sea salt and pure sodium chloride is the rate of dissolution.  Magnesium sulfate and calcium chloride, for instance, dissolve more rapidly than sodium chloride.  I took this into account when I measured my sea salt.  Once the pizza is baked, there will still be sufficient moisture to keep some of the salt dissolved in the crust, so not a lot of this property will have an effect on perceived saltiness.

With all that said, I think your disclaimer is appropriate for your recipe, however, even the sea salt you use may not be twice as salty in all dough formulations.  I provided a procedure for testing relative ionic strength in another thread [ http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4779.msg40707.html#msg40707 ], but for sea salt, a few more things have to be taken into consideration which I won't go into right now.  I could devise a procedure that makes testing sea salt easier, but I would have to spend a lot of time building calibration tables for reference.

- red.november

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #614 on: March 13, 2007, 01:15:51 PM »
November,

Thank you so much for the explanation. I adjust the salt ratio in a recipe geared to whether on not the individual uses sea salt or regular salt. Because I do not know the saltiness of their sea salt--if they use it, I usually create a formula for them that is based on that 1 1/2X saltiness. They can always increase or decrease accordingly. I always use fine grind salt, since I don't ever dissolve the salt in the water in my formulas. Also, I've found that using coarse salt doesn't work all that well unless it is dissolved. Is that because its dissolution in the dough takes longer because the particles are larger?

When people look at the percentages in my dough formulations they always question the smaller amount of salt, but that is because I always use sea salt. I did briefly take a look at the grinding salt topic, but that just doesn't make sense to me--why not just use fine grind salt? I have not found Kosher salt to be saltier than sea salt and I don't think that grinding up the Kosher salt would make a difference in how salty it is. If you grind up a tablespoon of Kosher salt, I think it would still be the same saltiness, it would just dissolve faster. But this is based on cooking experience, not scientific data.

I've favored Kosher salt when I couldn't get sea salt. It is definitely not as salty as sea salt, and while it is an improvement over regular sodium chloride based table salt, it is not nearly as flavorful as sea salt. (this is in general cooking)

In terms of grinding salt, I have very coarse rock sea salt crystals that I like to freshly grate over my food like pepper which are the best way to enjoy salt on a finished dish. Can you tell that I really like my salt in food? >:D


Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #615 on: March 13, 2007, 04:07:02 PM »
Evelyne,

"I've found that using coarse salt doesn't work all that well unless it is dissolved. Is that because its dissolution in the dough takes longer because the particles are larger?"

The simplified answer is yes, that is correct.

"When people look at the percentages in my dough formulations they always question the smaller amount of salt"

Understandably, a desirable level of saltiness (aside from its functional roles) is subjective and a matter of opinion, but I have to say that 2% is not a small amount, even for kosher salt.  I say that not based on opinion, but based on recipe statistics.  Where you referring to dough formulations other than the one posted yesterday?

"I have not found Kosher salt to be saltier than sea salt and I don't think that grinding up the Kosher salt would make a difference in how salty it is."

It would be impossible for kosher salt to be saltier than sea salt, at least as it concerns the ion concentration per rate of dissolution.  Sea salt's saltiness is a part of a natural phenomenon that involves trapping highly hygroscopic and ionic substances found in abundance in the Earth's crust.  This means that over time, anything at least as "strong" and soluble as sodium chloride, and many other salts that are stronger, will accumulate in the world's oceans without any means of escape (other than human harvesting).  Just as long as there are salts anywhere this world stronger than sodium chloride, they will eventually end up in the sea, always giving sea salt its edge.

Grinding any salt does not make a difference if you intend to fully dissolve it in water first.  Apparently some think that's a subject to debate though.

"I've favored Kosher salt when I couldn't get sea salt. [...] while it is an improvement over regular sodium chloride based table salt"

I assume you mean iodized table salt.  The term "table salt" simply denotes a refined salt of a particular particle size and shape, as in a size and shape that can flow freely from a salt shaker.  The term "kosher" denotes a refined salt of a larger particle size, derived from its use in making meat kosher.  Obviously both kosher and table salt are just sodium chloride.

Yes, it is apparent you like salt.  The only time I ever use salt on my food is when I cook meat or I use hickory smoked salt on boiled eggs.  Even when I cook meat, I use very little, and I use blends such as adobo seasoning on poultry or scrambled eggs.  For the most part, I prefer the flavor of the food itself over what salt does to it.  When I eat canned foods, that's the most sodium I get from an average meal, and fortunately I have started to see a lot of canned foods transition to low or no sodium.  Can you tell I really like a low to normal blood pressure?

- red.november

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #616 on: March 13, 2007, 06:48:09 PM »
November,

Heh, my blood pressure is still relatively low, but I've been trying to ween off of a lot of salt. When I cook in general, I only use a small amount of salt--if necessary. I prefer to grind a few delicious grains of coarse grey sea salt over meat and some vegetables as a condiment instead of heavily salting food.

When it comes to making pizza for myself at home, I usually stick to about 1%, which to some, is not salty  enough, but to me, works fine because the cheese and tomatoes have plenty of their own. At the restaurant we make our own sausage and use locally produced salumi products which are less salty than their commercial counterparts--but still salty. I would say that the pizza I produce commercially--especially with the restaurants own hand-produced fresh mozzarella, contains significantly less salt than most other commercial varieties.

I try to look for balance of flavors in pizza. I don't like pizza that sends me to the faucet to chug down water because it is that salty. I do think that a touch of salt makes the best dough--too much salt and it begins to taste like a bagel, too little, and it lacks flavor. If you start out with a salty crust, the whole pizza will get very salty once standard toppings are added.

The salt issue is so subjective. I get customers who complain that their pizza is way too salty for them and at the opposite end of the spectrum--that the same pizza is not salty enough. Once you back off of salt you become super sensitive to it and normal amount of salt seems like a shakerfull. The complaints about lack of salt invariably come from pizzas ordered with the fresh cheese, which is significantly less salty than low-moisture brick mozzarella.

As regards to Kosher salt, I always thought that it was not just coarse table salt, but that it was a better grade of salt?  So you say it is the same thing only in larger particle size? What about rock salt and organic rock salt crystals that you grind, are they also the same, or are they flavored with minerals--not sea salt. I've bought some of these salts at the healthfood store.

Anyway, back to the same day method. I use the preferment same day formula that I listed previously when I want to have a decent pizza in 4 hours. At home, I do not use 00, unless I have some around, my AP (Giusto's) is 12 1/2% protein and works just fine in the quick version. I also like to add olive oil to a fast same day batch because it adds to the flavor, texture and color of the crust significantly--the oil also makes the dough nice and easy to stretch out. It's not the aged dough we produce at the restaurant, but it is pretty darn good for spur of the moment.

Evelyne


Offline November

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #617 on: March 13, 2007, 07:26:56 PM »
As regards to Kosher salt, I always thought that it was not just coarse table salt, but that it was a better grade of salt?  So you say it is the same thing only in larger particle size? What about rock salt and organic rock salt crystals that you grind, are they also the same, or are they flavored with minerals--not sea salt. I've bought some of these salts at the healthfood store.

Kosher salt is named such for the standard practice of salting raw meat with coarse salt to draw out the blood, since blood is not kosher and coarse salt does not dissolve away as easily.  Coarse salt is a general designation that could refer to either processed or unprocessed large particle salt.  Kosher salt is processed to removed any impurities, so in that respect, it is as much pure sodium chloride as table salt, but would lose the kosher designation if left unprocessed.  To refer to kosher salt as a better grade is a little tricky.  I think it will probably always retain that luster in the minds of consumers because of the association with typical kosher quality.  I myself fall into that category.  Anytime I see kosher on a label, much like "organic" is becoming in the marketplace, I tend to pay it more attention.  It probably would not hurt to generalize that kosher salt is a better quality salt, because as we all know, kosher in general is usually better quality, but quality will probably still vary from one producer to the next just like any other product.  In a best case scenario, I don't think the quality difference is discernible without instrumentation.

Rock salt is simply mined salt that hasn't been processed to removed impurities.  It's also known as halite [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halite ].

- red.november

EDIT: I should also mention that a desirable difference kosher provides is the flaky shape.  This shape was chosen for its greater surface area in order to maximize the effectiveness of drawing blood from meat.  Since coarse salt could conceivable come in just about any shape, it isn't best suited for making meat kosher, hence kosher salt's place in the world.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 07:35:19 PM by November »

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #618 on: March 13, 2007, 08:45:17 PM »
November

Yes, I tend to think the same thing when I see the tag "kosher" as well and I guess that's why I've always thought kosher salt was better than regular...

Evelyne

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #619 on: March 13, 2007, 10:43:37 PM »
Out of curiosity, I did a site search at the PMQ Think Tank archives to see if Tom Lehmann ever made reference to using sea salt or Kosher salt. I found no such reference. When I broadened the search to cover all posters, I found two references to sea salt--both from individuals (one of whom is a member of our forum) as opposed to professional pizza operators. I found none for Kosher salt. So, clearly, the use of sea salt and Kosher salt in dough seems to be confined to artisan pizza makers.

I have and use several salts, including sea salts, Kosher salt, and ordinary table salt. Looking at the labels, the Kosher salt (Morton's coarse) specifies the ingredients as "Salt, Yellow Prussiate of Soda (Anti-caking agent)". The labels for two of the table salts I use, both of which are house brands and which I use mainly for salting water to cook pasta, read "Salt, dextrose, potassium iodide, sodium bicarbonate, yellow prussiate of soda" and "Salt, sodium silicoaluminate, dextrose, potassium iodide and sodium bicarbonate". Comparing the ingredients for the table salts with the Kosher salt, I think I would rather use the Kosher salt rather than the table salts in pizza dough.

The main sea salt I use for pizza dough is the "Real Salt" brand, which includes 98.32% sodium chloride according to the label information.

Earlier today, I did a Google search to see how much sea salt one should use in substitution for table salt. I was surprised at how little is devoted to that question. Maybe my keywords were not very good, but I could only find one reference on point--at gourmetsleuth.com--and that said to use equal amounts. Even the Salt Institute doesn't address the question, as best I could tell from theire website. Several places address the equivalency issue for table salt and Kosher salt.

Peter