Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 543973 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #700 on: September 02, 2008, 07:34:59 PM »
tdeane,

You are correct that the classic NY style pizza dough did not use oil in the dough. Likewise for sugar. However, I am sure that there are pizza operators, and many of our members as well, who use one or both of these ingredients for their NY street style pizzas. The elite NY style is more likely to be only flour, water, salt and yeast, and no sugar or oil.

This is what Tom Lehmann said on this subject in an email exchange I had with him on his NY style pizza dough formulation:

The New York style dough doesn't contain any sugar due to the high baking temperatures typically used for this type of pizza. The addition of 1% oil to the dough improves the flavor of the dough significantly. It isn't necessary to add the oil, but it sure helps to improve the overall appeal of the finished crust.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

 
Peter



Offline tdeane

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #701 on: September 02, 2008, 08:16:29 PM »
I definitely disagree with him that it improves the dough.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #702 on: September 05, 2008, 11:18:43 AM »
tdeane,

I was away from my home base when you last posted but when I returned home I looked at the NY style pizza dough recipes posted on this forum (there are about 15 of them identified as such) and only found a few that do not use oil (or other form of fat) or sugar in any form. These include Steve's "quick & easy" dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2790.0.html and the Amici's dough clone recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6313.msg54156.html#msg54156 (there is also some background information on the Amici's clone dough formulation at Reply 459 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5541.msg51070.html#msg51070). Also, some members, like Bryan S, have modified the Lehmann NY style dough recipe to leave out the oil (and sugar as well), as noted, for example, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4928.msg42336.html#msg42336. In Bryan S's case, he uses a pizza screen rather than a stone.

No doubt, the "elite" New Haven style pizzas do not include oil or sugar in the doughs either but to the best of my knowledge there are no formulations for such doughs on the forum. Like their NYC counterparts, such doughs rely on very high oven temperatures--far higher than what one can usually achieve in an unmodified home oven.

I also recalled that Evelyne Slomon discussed the origins of the classic NY style doughs (the "elite" variety) and her recollections of the events surrounding the origin of the Lehmann NY style dough recipe as well, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054/topicseen.html#msg41054. There is a lot of good information in that post.

Peter

Offline tdeane

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #703 on: September 05, 2008, 04:35:57 PM »
My point is just that I disagree that it improves the dough. I also doubt that the good NY places use oil or especially sugar. By good I mean any place that is good. Regular walk in slice place or coal oven. I don't know what elite NY is. I've never heard that before. I suppose by that you mean coal oven places. I suppose a place like Ray's probably use oil and sugar but why would anyone want to copy that pizza? I could be wrong but I don't think so. I hope I'm not being overly argumentative, I don't mean to be. Nothing wrong with a good bebate.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #704 on: September 05, 2008, 06:18:39 PM »
tdeane,

I accepted what you said about the use of oil in the dough of a NY style pizza as a statement of opinion, which I rarely contest because it is almost impossible to change one's opinion on a subject as personal and passionate as pizza. It was out of curiosity that I went back to see which NY style dough recipes posted on the forum called for either oil or sugar in the dough. In general, both oil and sugar in the dough are common among our members for the NY style. Unlike the pizza operators who use high-temperature ovens, sugar is less of a problem with home ovens so long as the amount of sugar is not excessive and likely to lead to a premature or excessive browning of the bottom crust. Some members use pizza screens, which allows for use of sugar at higher levels.

By "elite" NY style, I was referring mainly to thin crusted pizzas that are baked in high-temperature ovens. Most of the elite places, like Patsy's, Totonno's, Lombardi's and John's, use coal-fired ovens but DiFara's, which is usually considered an elite pizza maker, uses a gas fired deck oven. Ray's would be classified as a NY street style.

If you scan the index of the forum, you will find that people are interested in replicating the pizzas of just about every major pizza chain and many smaller and local ones as well. We even have a few members who are devoted to frozen pizzas and those made from boxed mixes (such as Chef Boyardee). I have learned to accept and respect their opinions on their favorite pizzas as well. In fact, I have helped them replicate many of their favorite pizzas.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #705 on: September 05, 2008, 09:07:39 PM »
I have eaten at Di Fara's many times as well as all the places you mentioned. I believe an authentic NY pizza dough does not have oil or sugar in it. I am a chef and lived in New York for a long time. I have eaten at just about every place in New York worth eating at. Oil is a fat. Fat is a softener. Good NY pizza is crispy with some pull to the crust. If you add oil to the dough, you lose some of that crispiness. The good places in NY, "elite" or otherwise have crispy crusts. Ray's crust is soft. You do the math. I'm being a pizza nazi, I know. Sorry about that. By the way, Di Fara's is really just a walk in joint, but he he uses much better ingredients and is just better than the other places. It was my favorite place but he has definitely slipped in recent years.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #706 on: September 05, 2008, 09:42:05 PM »
tdeane,

Carrying your line of argument a bit further:

1) Is it necessary that an authentic NY style dough use fresh yeast?

2) Can an authentic NY style dough be cold fermented?

3) Can an authentic NY style dough be baked in a standard deck oven (e.g., Bakers Pride or Blodgett) or an air impingement conveyor oven?

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #707 on: September 05, 2008, 10:42:07 PM »
How is any of that in any way related to my argument about oil or sugar?

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #708 on: September 05, 2008, 10:46:04 PM »
How is any of that in any way related to my argument about oil or sugar?

I am trying to understand how you define an "authentic" NY style dough and when it may have originated.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #709 on: September 05, 2008, 11:06:38 PM »
Are you serious? I lived there and ate there for many years. Have you? I have spent a lot of time trying to recreate what I had when I lived there because I miss it so much. You are acting like I am trying to challenge your authority on pizza. I am just offering my opinion on NY pizza that comes from years of experience and with training as a chef. I am in no way talking about the origins of NY pizza. I am talking about the good NY pizza I had from the years 1993-2000. My basic point is that the good NY places stay true to the Neapolitan rule of nothing in the dough but flour, water, salt and yeast. That is real NY pizza. I do not want to get into some silly argument about ovens,yeast etc.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #710 on: September 05, 2008, 11:42:10 PM »
tdeane,

I am only trying to point out that there is more than one "NY style" pizza dough. In his role as Director of Baking at the American Institute of Baking (AIB), and as a recognized authority on pizza dough, the primary market segment that Tom Lehmann serves, including as a consultant and trainer, is independent pizza operators. For the NY style dough that he recommends, which calls for using some oil (the sugar is optional), the ovens used by such operators are primarily deck ovens and air impingement conveyor ovens. There is even a new hearth style disk that was developed by pizzatools.com (through its Lloyd affiliate) specifically for the NY style dough. By your description of what you consider to be an "authentic" NY style dough, Tom Lehmann's NY style dough may not past muster. However, he has acknowledged that one need not use either sugar or oil in his dough formulation. Unless there are other facets of an authentic NY style dough that I don't comprehend, which prompted my questions to you, then it would seem that Tom's stripped down NY style dough formulation without sugar and oil would qualify as "authentic". My work on this thread was to try to adapt the basic Lehmann NY style dough to a home environment.  It was not intended to yield an "authentic" NY style dough by your description, even though such a dough has been discussed at different times as the thread evolved.

I understand your position, so there is not much more to be said on the subject. I wish you well in your efforts to recreate the NY style pizzas that you miss.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #711 on: September 05, 2008, 11:58:07 PM »
I will add that I never, EVER saw a conveyor pizza oven in NY. Deck or coal only. Now there are some wood ovens, but that is not traditional NY pizza. Just a question, what makes Tom Lehmann an authority on NY pizza dough? I have to say, I watched a video of him making "NY" style pizza and he knows about as much about NY style pizza as someone from Chicago. He brushed the dough with olive oil before putting on the toppings for god's sake. I GUARANTEE you, not one place in NY does that.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 09:52:51 AM by tdeane »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #712 on: September 06, 2008, 10:58:03 AM »
tdeane,

Tom Lehmann has made several videos but if the video you have in mind is the one referenced and briefly described at Reply 643 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg51195.html#msg51195, you will note that Tom was using plum tomatoes (I believe they are Sclafani tomatoes judging from the can shown in the video) and no other sauce. That would explain his use of an oil barrier between the tomatoes and the crust to mitigate migration of moisture from the tomatoes into the dough. Tom is fond of using fresh tomatoes to make what he calls a “gourmet” pizza, such as his Americanized version of a Margherita style pizza, as you will note from one of his posts at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=15505#15505. If the oven used by Tom to bake the pizzas operated at very high temperatures, such as the very high oven temperatures of Neapolitan ovens (typically above 800 degrees F), then he wouldn’t need the oil barrier because of the high oven temperatures and short bake times (usually between about 1-2 minutes). In the video, Tom was using a conveyor oven operating at a temperature of 485 degrees F, with a bake time of about 5 ½ minutes

As for the use of conveyor ovens to make NY style doughs, I did not see any conveyor ovens to make the NY style of pizza in any of my trips to NYC. However, conveyor ovens are being used increasingly to make the NY style pizza. I read about such use from time to time by posters at the PMQ Think Tank forum, just about all of whom are “mom and pop” independent pizza operators. The video referenced above shows the use of a conveyor oven, possibly a Lincoln FASTBAKE oven that Tom has been experimenting with. Also, one of our forum members, Thompson Ly, is using conveyor ovens as part of a pizza business he started in South China. As a matter of fact, he is using the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as described in this thread, although I believe he is using some sugar. Thompson recently opened a second pizza shop, also using a conveyor oven. From photos he sent me, it looks like he is having good success with the NY pizza style in China. He also experimented with the new pizzatools.com/Lloyd hearth style disks (for a clearer photo than shown in the video, see Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg44313.html#msg44313) but I don’t know if he is now using them. Previously he used pizza screens. If you are interested, you can read about his experiences making the NY style pizzas in China at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5476.msg46215/topicseen.html#msg46215.

Peter

Offline mmarston

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #713 on: September 06, 2008, 09:20:22 PM »
Peter,

I am not a religious person but if there is a heaven, rest assured that there is a special place for people like you who have the patience of a saint.

Michael

(born and raised in the restaurant business in San Francisco, lived in Brooklyn for 20+ years and had to learn to make my own pizza after moving to upstate NY).
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #714 on: September 06, 2008, 10:57:26 PM »
Michael,

I second that!
Mike

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #715 on: September 06, 2008, 11:30:24 PM »
Peter,

I am not a religious person but if there is a heaven, rest assured that there is a special place for people like you who have the patience of a saint.

Michael

(born and raised in the restaurant business in San Francisco, lived in Brooklyn for 20+ years and had to learn to make my own pizza after moving to upstate NY).

What is that supposed to mean? I thought  I was being the patient one. I mean, I am the one that knows what NY pizza is actually supposed to be like.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #716 on: September 06, 2008, 11:35:09 PM »
tdeane,

Tom Lehmann has made several videos but if the video you have in mind is the one referenced and briefly described at Reply 643 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg51195.html#msg51195, you will note that Tom was using plum tomatoes (I believe they are Sclafani tomatoes judging from the can shown in the video) and no other sauce. That would explain his use of an oil barrier between the tomatoes and the crust to mitigate migration of moisture from the tomatoes into the dough. Tom is fond of using fresh tomatoes to make what he calls a “gourmet” pizza, such as his Americanized version of a Margherita style pizza, as you will note from one of his posts at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=15505#15505. If the oven used by Tom to bake the pizzas operated at very high temperatures, such as the very high oven temperatures of Neapolitan ovens (typically above 800 degrees F), then he wouldn’t need the oil barrier because of the high oven temperatures and short bake times (usually between about 1-2 minutes). In the video, Tom was using a conveyor oven operating at a temperature of 485 degrees F, with a bake time of about 5 ½ minutes

As for the use of conveyor ovens to make NY style doughs, I did not see any conveyor ovens to make the NY style of pizza in any of my trips to NYC. However, conveyor ovens are being used increasingly to make the NY style pizza. I read about such use from time to time by posters at the PMQ Think Tank forum, just about all of whom are “mom and pop” independent pizza operators. The video referenced above shows the use of a conveyor oven, possibly a Lincoln FASTBAKE oven that Tom has been experimenting with. Also, one of our forum members, Thompson Ly, is using conveyor ovens as part of a pizza business he started in South China. As a matter of fact, he is using the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as described in this thread, although I believe he is using some sugar. Thompson recently opened a second pizza shop, also using a conveyor oven. From photos he sent me, it looks like he is having good success with the NY pizza style in China. He also experimented with the new pizzatools.com/Lloyd hearth style disks (for a clearer photo than shown in the video, see Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg44313.html#msg44313) but I don’t know if he is now using them. Previously he used pizza screens. If you are interested, you can read about his experiences making the NY style pizzas in China at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5476.msg46215/topicseen.html#msg46215.

Peter

It is imposible to make real NY pizza with a conveyor oven. You need the char from the deck.


Offline Essen1

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #717 on: September 06, 2008, 11:38:28 PM »
Quote
What is that supposed to mean?

TD,

I think it means that you're coming on a tad too strong in this discussion. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, and I can tell that a good NYC pie is your passion, but there are subtler ways to get a point across, IMHO. Keep in mind we're all here to share and learn and it shows that you know what you're talking about. But so do others. It's all in good fun.

Just a thought.
Mike

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #718 on: September 07, 2008, 08:08:24 AM »
TD,

I think it means that you're coming on a tad too strong in this discussion. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, and I can tell that a good NYC pie is your passion, but there are subtler ways to get a point across, IMHO. Keep in mind we're all here to share and learn and it shows that you know what you're talking about. But so do others. It's all in good fun.

Just a thought.

Ditto.
When baking, follow directions.  When cooking, go by your own taste.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #719 on: September 07, 2008, 09:39:53 AM »
It might be useful to remind everyone how this thread came about.

On September 21, 2004, Steve, the Administrator of this forum, told the forum that he had gotten permission from Tom Lehmann to post some of Tom’s dough formulas on this forum. Steve asked for “volunteers to make some of these recipes, perhaps tweak them, and photograph their work for inclusion on the site”. On September 22, 2004, based on some of my preliminary efforts to make pizzas using Tom’s NY style dough formulation, I volunteered to play around with that formulation. Since that time, I have made just about every version of that formulation that I can think of. In fact, I made so many versions that it became necessary to create a “roadmap” to keep track of them. That is the roadmap that appears at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193.

So, from the very beginning, the purpose of this thread was to try to adapt the Lehmann NY style dough formulation to a home oven environment. It was not to extol the virtues of an “authentic” NY style pizza as it existed at any stage since Italians emigrated to the U.S and started making pizzas, or to replicate authentic NY style pizzas using a home oven. For one thing, I knew—and have since confirmed—that I couldn’t make an authentic NY style pizza in my home oven. It was the wrong oven for that style. Later, I discovered that I couldn’t achieve that objective when pizzatools.com/Lloyd came up with its hearth disk that was specifically designed to produce a hearth-like crust when used in an air impingement conveyor oven. It might produce a decent pizza in an air impingement conveyor oven but not in my basic home oven. Finally, the largest size pizza I could make with my pizza stone was 14”. To get to the more traditional 16” or 18” size, I had to use a combination of a 16” or 18” pizza screen and my 14” x 16” pizza stone.

It wasn’t until I tried to make a clone of the Amici’s “East Coast” NY style dough that I followed a dough formulation that arguably was an “authentic” NY style dough formulation. The thread that I started on that dough formulation is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6313.msg54156.html#msg54156. I was hoping that others would pick up where I left off with that dough formulation, maybe using a 2Stone or LBE unit to get the high temperatures required to produce the best results, but apparently my efforts did not inspire anyone to try the formulation and report back on their results.

For the record, I have no quarrel with tdeane’s advocacy of the “authentic” NY style. In fact, I respect it when people stand up for what they believe, just as I admire pizzanapoletana’s (Marco’s) advocacy of the authentic Neapolitan pizza style and Evelyne Slomon’s advocacy of artisan pizzas using the best ingredients and methods of the old masters whose work she witnessed and chronicled in her pizza cookbook in 1984 and on this forum, including this thread. Unfortunately, Americans have a habit of changing things to meet their particular needs. That is how frozen pizzas, take-and-bake pizzas, microwavable pizzas, and using special hearth disks in conveyor ovens to emulate hearth baked pizzas came into being. Whether we like it or not, these types of changes are going to continue to occur.

I invite tdeane to start a new thread if he wishes to promote his advocacy of the authentic NY style however he cares to define that style. If he can post the recipes he uses to make his doughs and to prepare authentic NY style pizzas, so much the better. We many not always agree with tdeane but we can all learn from his passion for the authentic NY style.

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #720 on: September 07, 2008, 09:43:24 AM »
Thanks Peter. I didn't really mean to come on too strong. I'm kind of a say what I think kind of guy.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #721 on: October 04, 2008, 09:42:18 PM »
In light of the recent interest by some of our members in using frozen pizza dough (see, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6623.msg56822.html#msg56822, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7198.0.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7216.0.html), I thought that it might be useful and instructive to take another stab at making a frozen dough version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. Since the last time I made such a frozen dough, I have read and learned more about how possibly to make a more credible frozen dough in a home environment using a standard refrigerator freezer compartment.

As a result of my research, I incorporated the following attributes and features into the latest frozen Lehmann dough: 1) I used a flour with a medium protein content (in my case, I used King Arthur bread flour at 12.7% protein); 2) I lowered the hydration from 62% usually used with the King Arthur bread flour to 59% (which reduces the amount of water to be frozen that might harm the yeast); 4) I increased the amount of yeast (IDY in my case) by threefold to compensate for damage to the yeast during the static home freezing process, and to allow enough yeast to leaven the dough during the defrost and bench warm-up periods; 5) I used ice cold water (at 33.7 degrees F) to lower the finished dough temperature, except for a small amount which I used to rehydrate the IDY at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes (this was done to prevent the IDY from being shocked by the ice cold water); 6) I increased the amount of salt (to 2%) to improve the stability of the dough, and used oil (at 3%) to improve the texture of the dough; 7) I used honey (at 3%) in lieu of table sugar because of the rheology (flow) benefits from using the honey, and to feed the yeast;  8) I used soy flour (at 5%) and a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) to strengthen the dough (the soy flour also increases the protein content); and 9) I used short mix/knead times to limit the heat imparted to the dough during the mixing/kneading steps. The King Arthur bread flour and the soy flour were sifted before using to improve the hydration of that blend.

Once the dough was prepared, it was lightly oiled and placed in a zip-type storage bag, flattened (to allow the dough to freeze faster), and then placed into the freezer compartment of my standard home refrigerator. The dough remained in the freezer compartment for 10 days, whereupon it was removed to the refrigerator compartment to defrost for one day (the recommended period) before using.

The specific dough formulation I used (as provided using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html) is set forth below. In using the tool, I used a nominal thickness factor of 0.105, and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor losses during the preparation of the dough. The dough weight was selected to make a single 14” pizza.

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.75%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Honey (3%):
Soy Flour (5%):
Total (172.75%):
269.24 g  |  9.5 oz | 0.59 lbs
158.85 g  |  5.6 oz | 0.35 lbs
2.02 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
5.38 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
8.08 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.78 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
8.08 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
13.46 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 6.73 tsp | 2.24 tbsp
465.11 g | 16.41 oz | 1.03 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Added pinch of ascorbic acid; pizza size = 14”; nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

To prepare the dough, I started by rehydrating the IDY for 10 minutes in a small amount of the formula water, which was heated to 105 degrees F. The rest of the formula water, at 33.7 degrees F, was added to the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer, followed by the salt, ascorbic acid, honey, oil, and the rehydrated IDY. Using the flat beater attachment at stir speed, I then gradually added the flour/soy blend to the mixer bowl. Once the dough mass pulled away from the sides of the bowl and gathered around the flat beater attachment, about 1-2 minutes, I cleared the dough mass from the flat beater attachment and switched to the C-hook. The dough was then kneaded at speed 2 until the dough was smooth and cohesive but still a bit on the sticky side, about 4 minutes. I then removed the dough from the mixer and kneaded and shaped it by hand to form a round ball, about 30 seconds. I estimate that the total dough preparation time between the time I started adding ingredients to the mixer bowl to the finished dough was about 6 minutes. The finished dough weight was around 16.2 ounces, and its temperature was 76.5 degrees F. The dough went straight into the freezer compartment of my refrigerator, as noted above.

Once the dough was removed from the freezer compartment, it was put into the refrigerator compartment for one day so that it could thaw out. After the one-day defrost period, the dough was re-kneaded (as Tom Lehmann recommends), placed on my work surface, covered with a sheet of plastic wrap, and allowed to warm up for two hours. The dough was ready to use after about one hour of warm-up but I decided to let it ferment another hour in order to get more by-products of fermentation. The dough was then formed into a 14” skin. The dough handled very well, with a good balance between elasticity and extensibility. After the skin was dressed (basic pepperoni style), it was baked on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated at around 525 degrees F for an hour. It took six minutes to bake the pizza.

The finished pizza is shown below. The finished crust had good color and a good-sized rim, with a few large bubbles, and a soft, open and airy crumb that I would best describe as bread-like. However, the crust was a bit too salty and it was not particularly chewy or crispy as is characteristic of the NY style. Also, the finished crust did not have the crumb texture or flavors and aromas that come from long fermentation times. As noted above, the defrost period was only one day, and a lot of that time was devoted to defrosting the dough rather than fermenting it. A good part of the fermentation by-products were no doubt produced during the warm-up period on the bench.

While making the frozen dough version of the Lehmann dough formulation was a success in my opinion, there are many tradeoffs. For example, while the use of high levels of sugar (honey, in my case) and oil help to make a dough that can be successfully frozen, the result is a crust that is soft and tender and breadlike rather than chewy or crispy, and the sugar at the level noted will cause the crust to brown before becoming crispy. Also, by freezing the dough, there is a diminishment of the usual by-products of fermentation that contribute to the color, texture, flavor and aroma of the finished crust and crumb. I could tell immediately from looking at the smooth outer surface of the rim and after the first bite of the pizza that it lacked many of the attributes of a long-fermented dough that I personally prefer and work hard to achieve. However, I understand and appreciate that such attributes aren’t always needed and that having some frozen dough balls on hand can have value under certain conditions and situations. It is also possible that the frozen dough I made may be improved, as by using less sugar and oil and allowing the frozen dough to defrost over a 2 or 3 day period rather than one day, even if the longer fermentation time produces a more extensible dough with attributes of a somewhat overfermented dough. It might also be useful to use vital wheat gluten in lieu of the soy flour, both of which are commonly used for doughs that are to be frozen.

FWIW, I estimate that my dough ball cost me around $0.75 in materials based on supermarket prices. I made my frozen dough to learn more about the principles and processes involved, but if one is not interested in such things it might be cheaper and more convenient to buy frozen dough balls from Wal-Mart or Sam’s or other such stores rather than trying to make them at home.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 03:44:19 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #722 on: January 03, 2009, 10:41:11 AM »
Recently, at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308, I described a Papa John’s clone dough that I made with a window of usability of eight days. To achieve that long window, one of the measures I took was to use active dry yeast (ADY) in dry form, that is, without first rehydrating it in water, as is the usual recommended method. Rather, I simply mixed the dry ADY in with the flour, much as I would do if I were using instant dry yeast (IDY). Because of the success of that dough, and the pizza that was made from it, and at the urging of Mad Ernie at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64316.html#msg64316, I was prompted to examine whether the “dry ADY” method would work with some other dough formulation. With that objective in mind, I decided to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to see if the principles I learned from my Papa John’s experiment would extend to the Lehmann NY style. In so doing, I used several of the techniques described previously at the alternative KitchenAid dough making method at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation, for a 16” pizza:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (0.375%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.125%):
315.34 g  |  11.12 oz | 0.7 lbs
195.51 g  |  6.9 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.18 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
5.52 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
3.15 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
520.7 g | 18.37 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.09135
Note: For one 16” pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.09; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above formulation, I used the King Arthur brand of bread flour. As is my usual practice, I sifted it before using. The nominal thickness factor I selected was 0.09 (to yield a finished dough weight of 18.10 ounces), and the bowl residue compensation factor was 1.5%. The water I used was spring water, which was at refrigerator temperature, at 42 degrees F. Even the ADY was cold, right out of the freezer where I store my ADY supply. One of the key techniques to get a long fermentation and long window of usability is to keep everything as cold as possible.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 11.12 ounces, converts to 2 c. + 1/3 c. + 2 T. + 2 ¼ t.  These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 6.9 ounces of water in the above table converts to ½ c. + ¼ c. + 1 T. + 5/8 t. The level of water in the measuring cup(s) should be viewed at eye level with the cup(s) on a flat surface. These conversions were derived by using member November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the ADY (dry) with the flour. As noted above, even the ADY was cold. I then added the formula water, at 42 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. Next, I added the salt, and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. I then added the oil. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and the mixer at stir speed, I gradually added the flour/ADY mixture to the bowl, a few tablespoons at a time. I did this until the flour/ADY was roughly incorporated with the rest of the ingredients in the bowl and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and collected around the paddle attachment, about a minute. I then replaced the paddle attachment with the C-hook and kneaded the dough mass, at speed 2, for about 6 minutes. The dough was then kneaded and shaped into a round dough ball by hand, about 30 seconds. The finished dough weight was 18.27 ounces, which I trimmed back to 18.10 ounces (based on the nominal thickness factor of 0.09), and the finished dough temperature was 68.7 degrees F. That is lower than the 75-80 degrees F target usually recommended for a home refrigerator application, but the lower finished dough temperature is key to getting a long, cold fermentation that translates to a long window of usability.

The dough was then lightly coated with vegetable oil. In order to monitor the rise of the dough during the fermentation period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. In line with that method, I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball. The first photo below shows the finished dough, including the two spaced-apart poppy seeds. The finished dough was placed in a tall, clear plastic Food Saver container. For a cover for that container, I used the plastic lid that I normally use with my one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. The lid, with a small opening in the center to allow gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation, fits perfectly with the Food Saver container. The second photo below shows the dough within that container.

The dough within its container was then immediately placed in the refrigerator. After seven days, I observed that the dough had risen by only 20%, based on the slight increase in spacing between the two poppy seeds. After 11 days, the rise was about 39%; after 12 days, it was about 42%. Concluding that 12 days was perhaps long enough, I decided to use the dough at that point to make pizza. The dough ball was brought out of the refrigerator and put on my counter to warm up. I left the dough within its container so that I wouldn’t disturb the poppy seeds, thereby allowing me to see how much further the dough would rise while at room temperature (about 70 degrees F). After about three hours at room temperature, the dough increased in volume to about 66% (based on the increase in spacing between the two poppy seeds), and then stabilized over the next hour or so while I preheated the pizza stone in my oven. The third photo below shows the dough at this stage. As can be seen in that photo, the dough exhibited some harmless spotting, as is quite common with long, cold-fermented doughs after several days. The spotting was limited to the top of the dough, not the sides or bottom of the dough in contact with the container.

I then shaped and stretched the dough into a 16” skin and placed it onto a 16” pizza screen. The dough was quite extensible, more so than I had expected based on the rise performance of the dough, but I had no difficulty handling the dough. The pizza was dressed in basic pepperoni style, using about 6 ounces of pizza sauce, 10 ounces of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, and slices of Hormel pepperoni that I had previously “nuked” in my microwave unit to reduce the fat content. I should add at this point that I used the 16” pizza screen since my pizza stone cannot itself accommodate a 16” pizza. So, as is my practice in situations like this, I use a combination of screen and pizza stone to make a pizza that is larger than my pizza stone.

The pizza was baked, on the screen, at the topmost oven rack position, until the rim started to rise and turn a light brown, about 4 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen (which was then removed from the oven) onto the pizza stone, which had been preheated for about an hour at a temperature of about 525 degrees F. The pizza remained on the stone until the bottom turned brown, about another 2 to 3 minutes. To get a bit more top crust browning, I moved the pizza back to the topmost oven rack position for about another 1-2 minutes. The photos in the next post show the finished pizza.

I thought the pizza turned out quite well. It had good overall crust coloration, the rim was crispy and chewy with good oven spring, and slices were soft and easily foldable in classic NY style. The texture of the crumb was similar to that of an artisan bread, with good pull (like a rubber band) when stretched. There was also a profusion of little blisters in the rim area, which is characteristic of a long fermented dough and something I have experienced many times before in very long fermented doughs. The flavors and aroma of the crust were also reminiscent of those achieved with an artisan bread, no doubt due to the substantial byproducts of fermentation produced over a period of 12 days. What I was especially looking for was whether the crust would be mildly sweet--despite the lack of any added sugar in the dough--which is a characteristic that I observed, and came to like, when I used IDY in prior long fermentation doughs. I did not detect that sweetness. It is possible, however, that using the dough before 12 days may retain enough residual sugar to produce a slight sweetness in the finished crust. In general, I think that a dough with 6-10 days of cold fermentation represents a good target.

As noted above, the objective of the latest experiment was to determine whether the dry ADY method has utility and applicability to the preparation of pizza dough in general. Based on my results with the above experiment, I would say that the answer is clearly yes.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:23:18 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #723 on: January 03, 2009, 10:45:38 AM »
And the photos of the finished pizza...


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Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza- First attempt
« Reply #724 on: January 11, 2009, 11:49:41 PM »
I took the exact recipe that was posted and the results are below. I substituted ADY for IDY but everything else is copied closely. I used my house oven at 525 w/ a stone vs. my LBE but still pleased with the results. Other than the technical aspect of the pizza, everything was very good. Nice spring, good taste, noticeable air bubbles, and just a nice pie to eat. I have family in town from New Jersey and they truly enjoyed the pizza which I can't say for several other experiments. The best part of all of this, it's possible to produce high quality pizzas with no sourdough starter or high heat (at least this is a first for me). Thanks for the great step-by-step guide.



 

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