Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 504574 times)

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Offline Bob1

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #820 on: January 24, 2010, 03:53:43 PM »
Thanks Pete,
I'll check it out.

Bob1


Offline Imaginate

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #821 on: February 18, 2010, 07:59:05 PM »
Tonight I did a slightly altered version of the recipe in the original post.  Just a couple small changes, bread flour and a touch more oil.  I mixed the dough in a food processor, with a little bit of additional hand kneading.

11.80 oz KA Bread Flour
7.7 oz water
.2 oz salt
.2 oz IDY
1 tsp oil

I ended up with 19.95 oz of dough that I divided into two very, very close to equal pieces.  So basically two 10 oz dough balls.

I baked the pizza directed on a preheated stone, around 525°F.  I found the crust to be a bit tough, lacking in flavor, and it didn't brown as much as I'd have liked on the bottom.  I know that oil tenderizes dough, my usual NY recipe (a slightly altered version from American Pie) has more oil and some sugar, and the final pizza is softer.  I thought about using all purpose flour, but I was wondering if there was something else I could try?  I mean, Pete-zza used high gluten flour in the original recipe without much oil...  I will probably just add oil to the dough if nothing else, maybe some sugar even.  It's not supposed to be tough, is it?  Chewy, but not tough right?  My pizza certainly didn't look like the pics in the first post.  Thanks for any comments.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #822 on: February 18, 2010, 10:40:20 PM »
Imaginate,

Can you tell me what size pizzas you made?

Peter

Offline Imaginate

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #823 on: February 18, 2010, 11:37:59 PM »
They were right at about 12 inches.  The dough seemed a little... loose when I was shaping it, if that makes sense.  I had to be careful so it wouldn't tear.  I let them rise about 20 hours in the fridge, and just under 2 hours on the counter before shaping them.  I'm thinking that maybe I didn't work the dough enough in the first place... Am I on the right track?  Lately all my dough seems to be like that and I can't figure it out.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #824 on: February 19, 2010, 02:08:11 PM »
Imaginate,

I ran your numbers through the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The numbers I got were a bit different than what you used (and I originally posted) because the expanded dough calculating tool and its greater accuracy did not exist at the time of my original post. However, the differences are not meaningful for our purposes today. I got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (65.2542%):
IDY (1.69491%):
Salt (1.69491%):
Olive Oil (1.19173%):
Total (169.83575%):
334.53 g  |  11.8 oz | 0.74 lbs
218.3 g  |  7.7 oz | 0.48 lbs
5.67 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
5.67 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
3.99 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
568.15 g | 20.04 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A

The first thing I observe from the dough formulation is the high hydration, a bit over 65%. That was an experimental hydration that I experimented with at the time. It was at the outer limit of the hydration range specified by Tom Lehmann for his New York style dough formulation and was with respect to the KASL flour, which is a high-gluten flour with a rated absorption vaLue of 63% +/-2%. That is a bit on the high side for the KABF, which has a rated absorption value of around 62%. There are ways that one might be able to get the KABF to absorb more water, but you would perhaps have to take measures such as sifting the flour and autolysing the dough or otherwise subject the dough to a comparable rest period. These days, I recommend a hydration value of 62% for the KABF. I believe the extensibility problems you experienced were due primarily to the high hydration you used. No doubt the extensibility problem was exacerbated by the fact that you tried to open up a 10-ounce dough ball to 12". My recollection is that the dough formulation you used was not for two 12" pizzas. I calculated a thickness factor of 0.0881984 for a 10-ounce dough ball used to make a 12" pizza.

Since you used thinner skins than what I originally proposed, that, along with the overly high hydration, perhaps conspired to produce the toughness you mentioned. If you used a much higher oven temperature, you might have been able to bake the pizza long enough to get the desired crust coloration while also retaining a degree of softness in the finished crust and crumb. At lower home oven temperatures, you might have baked the pizza too long in the search of good crust color that the pizza dried out too much and the crust became tough. I assume that you baked your pizza on the lowest oven rack position.

Comparing the Lehmann pizza you made with the Peter Reinhart NY style pizza is also likely to yield dramatically different reactions. The Reinhart NY style pizza dough, which I converted to baker's percent format at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678, makes use of a lot of sugar or honey and a lot of oil. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is more along the lines of the classic NY style and uses no sugar and only a small, almost unnoticeable, amount of oil. As I mentioned in Reply 7 referenced above, there are those who are likely to argue that the Reinhart NY style is not an authentic NY style. I mention this not to provoke an argument or debate but only to point out that the two dough formulations are different. I also know that there are members who prefer the Reinhart dough formulation over the Lehmann dough formulation. The Reinhart crust and crumb will be softer and more tender than a Lehmann crust and crumb because of all of the oil and sugar/honey.That will also manifest itself in the form of more flavor. The thickness factor that I calculated for the Reinhart NY style dough formulation is also higher than for the Lehmann NY style dough formulation and significantly greater than what you used by virtue of using a 10-ounce dough ball to make a 12" pizza. That will also create a sensation of softness/tenderness.

After considering the above discussion, you may want to decide which direction you may want to take your NY style.

Peter


Offline Imaginate

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #825 on: February 19, 2010, 04:02:09 PM »
Thanks for the detailed reply.  I've been wanting to try something other than my version of the Reinhart formula, so that along with the pics in this thread led me to give the Lehmann formula a shot.

I actually didn't intend on getting to 12 inches with my pizzas.  As I said, they were hard to handle, and really just wanted to stretch out on their own.  Thinking on what you wrote, high hydration sounds like my problem there.  I don't normally bake on the lowest rack because it blackens the bottom a little too much, I use the next one up.  But I've always done a recipe with sugar and quite a bit more oil, so that's probably why.  I think I am going to try it again, lower hydration and baked on the bottom rack.  Sounds like that could help the pizza turn out better.  Thanks again for the reply!

Robin

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #826 on: March 04, 2010, 09:14:58 PM »
I recently took the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation and adapted it for a room temperature fermentation of over 24 hours. The photo below shows a pizza that I made using that dough. The dough formulation I used was as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.024%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.774%):
255.39 g  |  9.01 oz | 0.56 lbs
158.34 g  |  5.59 oz | 0.35 lbs
0.06 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp (Note: 0.06 grams of IDY is equal to about 1 ¼ of a 1/64 t. measuring spoon)
4.47 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
2.55 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
420.81 g | 14.84 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.096425
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.095; dough is for a single 14" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The pizza made using the above dough was a Kraft's Macaroni & Cheese pizza with buffalo chicken pieces and bacon and a blend of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese and medium cheddar cheese. For complete details, see Replies 128/129 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg92094.html#msg92094.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #827 on: March 17, 2010, 02:10:00 PM »
Jim,

 With respect to your question about using 58% hydration with a 550 degrees F oven, I either missed that question or treated it as being a rhetorical question. Had I answered that question directly, I would have said yes

Peter,

Well to  continue this thought I just made a couple 58% hydration doughs and we'll see how it goes! This is my formula via the dough calculator for two 15". I'll did a couple long room temp rests in the process, the 2nd as we speak. I've never gone this low on hydration, should be interesting to see. I can tell you one thing so far though. After the remaining flour went in it was so dry the mixer knocked the bowl lock loose not once but twice! I'm now resting it since second disconnection and will hand knead the final stage.

Flour (100%):    607.14 g  |  21.42 oz | 1.34 lbs
Water (58%):    352.14 g  |  12.42 oz | 0.78 lbs
IDY (0.532%):    3.23 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    10.62 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.9 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
Oil (1%):    6.07 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Sugar (revised down from original data to about 1.5%):    9 g
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #828 on: March 19, 2010, 09:53:52 AM »
Ok So 58% hydro dough certainly explains how the parlors seem to stretch dough so easily without tears, like these random shots.
http://blog.pennlive.com/italian-kitchen/2009/04/large_Stretching%20Raw%20Pizza%20Dough%20JJ.jpg

http://www.foodstyle.co.nz/2009_magazine/articles/art_images/dante%20stretching%20the%20dough%20web.jpg

I was able to swat a wasp from mid-air, throw it up at a passing bird who actually rode the discus for awhile before it fell to earth, you get the idea. Indestructible I'd say. Not only doesn't it window pane but particular attention needs to be paid to stretching the middle, aerial tosses are almost a must. It was also a mammoth ball, 450gs, so 22" could have been reached with a peel and oven to accommodate. As it is it was hanging off both ends of the 15" stone.

All in all it was ok, not great, dry I'd call it mostly. What gets me more confused is it cooked way faster than I expected at 550, after 5 mins it was a bit overdone and I was shocked it got away from me. This makes me concede that most places don't cook at far higher temps as I said previously, but makes me wonder how if not higher temps how do they keep it from being so dry in the 'pro shops'. All in all a confusing experiment, nothing solidified, but not a bad pizza by any means. Certainly closer to street than elite, just without the lightness and moisture. This was also the 1 day ferment, I added sugar to do a 3 day too on 2nd ball, I'll let you know if there's much difference when 2nd is cooked.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 10:01:04 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline tager99

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #829 on: March 19, 2010, 10:53:10 AM »
Newbie here, but I wanted to give a quick shout out to all of the pizza makers on this site for helping me along my journey to make a decent pie, especially Pete!

I have been doing some pies here and there without much success, until last night.  I followed most of directions from this forum and cranked up the oven to 500, with the pizza stone on the bottom rack.  Had the dough out of the fridge for a couple hour rest.  Made a couple medium pies and the came out lovely.  I wish I shot a couple pictures, but it was eaten by the family too quickly.  I am going to make more tonight.

My wife said it tasted like a gourmet brick oven pizza.  Can't get a better compliment than that!  Anyway, thanks again!!
 :pizza:


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #830 on: April 18, 2010, 01:33:30 PM »
For some time, I have wanted to see if there was an easy and convenient way to make a more artisan looking Lehmann NY style pizza in my circa-1989 standard builder’s-grade Whirlpool electric oven. Heretofore, I have used either a preheated 14” x 16” pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position of my oven or a combination of the pizza stone and a screen for pizzas larger than my pizza stone can handle. On a few occasions, I tried using two pizza stones spaced apart from each other. However, I discovered that it takes considerably longer to preheat two stones than one and, in addition, I could not clearly see the back edge of the bottom stone as I was trying to load a pizza onto that stone, especially one that was 14” (the largest size pizza my stone can handle) and required very accurate positioning so as not to overshoot the stone. Also, I discovered that the top stone shielded the pizza from view such that I could not see it through the glass window in my oven door as it was baking. I did not want to have to open the oven door too much to see the progress of the pizza.

Over time, I noticed that our members developed many ingenious ways of using pizza stones and cast iron pans and sheet pans and tiles and aluminum foil to elevate the temperatures of the oven such that the pizzas baked up with greater oven spring and with good-sized bubbles and with better crust color and a decent amount of char. In some cases, the broiler element was an integral component of the particular configuration used. Also, some members found ways of getting around their oven clean cycles in order to get higher oven temperatures. However, what I was looking for was a method that only involved one stone and was easy and convenient to use and where I could see the pizza at all times as it was baking. I wanted to have the greatest control over the pizza as possible.

The closest arrangement that I could find that seemed to meet my requirements is the one that member Pete Waldman described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6585.msg56478.html#msg56478. In the Waldman arrangement, the pizza stone is placed at the top-third of the oven and preheated at an oven setting of 550 degrees F for about 45 minutes, followed by turning on the broiler element for about 10 minutes. The oven setting is then turned back to 550 degrees F. I wasn’t sure how this method would work in my oven since the broiler element cuts off when the oven temperature exceeds about 525 degrees F (Pete did not say whether his broiler works the same way). However, I decided to give the Waldman method a try. The first photo below shows my oven configuration using this method.

For the experiment, I used a defrosted dough ball that had originally been cold fermented for three days and then re-balled, flattened, inserted into a plastic storage bag and placed in the freezer compartment of my refrigerator and frozen for about 17 ½ days. The frozen dough ball was then transferred to the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator and allowed to defrost for about one day. It was then left at a room temperature of around 72 degrees F for about an hour and a half. The dough was sufficient to make a single 14” pizza and had the following formulation based on the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.375%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.125%):
241.43 g  |  8.52 oz | 0.53 lbs
149.69 g  |  5.28 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.91 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
4.23 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.41 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
398.66 g | 14.06 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.09135
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; dough for a single 14” pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%
* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 234.71 grams (8.28 ounces) King Arthur bread flour and 6.72 grams (0.24 ounces) Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (about 1 ½ t.)

When time came to work with the defrosted dough, I found it to have a somewhat unusual combination of extensibility and elasticity--in the sense that the dough ball opened up very easily and was highly extensible but it also had a tendency to then shrink back. So it took a few tries to get the skin to the full 14” size. The skin also exhibited a lot of fermentation bubbles, which I took to be a good sign. Once the skin was placed on my peel (with semolina flour as a release agent), it was dressed with pizza sauce (I used the Pastene Kitchen Ready ground peeled tomatoes with a bit of sugar, freshly ground black pepper, garlic powder, grated Pecorino Romano cheese, and dried oregano); low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese that I had diced in my Cuisinart food processor; a mixture of sautéed and very thinly sliced raw mushrooms; hot Italian sausage (Johnsonville) that I had removed from its casing, formed into thumb-sized pieces and briefly microwaved to reduce the fat content; and pepperoni slices.

In preparation for loading the pizza on the pizza stone, which had been preheated for about 45 minutes at around 525 degrees F, I turned on the broiler element for about 10 minutes. Since my broiler element kicks off at around 525 degrees F, I occasionally opened up the oven door so that the broiler element would turn on again. This helped get the stone temperature to around 585-600 degrees F. After ten minutes, I turned the broiler off and set the oven temperature back to its highest setting. The pizza was then loaded onto the stone where it baked for about 4 minutes. There was very good oven spring, with a lot of good-sized bubbles, good top crust coloration, decent char, and the cheeses and toppings were baking properly. However, when I removed the pizza from the oven, I noticed that the bottom of the crust was lighter than the top of the crust. I attributed this to the fact that the stone was some distance from the lower heating element and perhaps the bottom of the crust wasn’t getting sufficient heat to produce greater color. The thought also occurred to me that it was also possible that the dough was low in residual sugar after about a total of four days of fermentation and, hence, resulted in less crust coloration. If that was indeed true, it would be something that could be easily corrected in future doughs, as by adding a small amount of sugar to the doughs. In any event, I simply moved the pizza off of the stone to the lowest oven rack position where the bottom crust developed normal coloration from exposure to the bottom heating element. I would estimate that the pizza was on the lowest oven rack position for about a minute.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well, given the limitations of my oven. The crust was chewy and crispy and with good flavor and with a profusion of bubbles and blisters. And the pizza clearly had a more artisan NY style appearance. I hope to continue to experiment with the Waldman method to see if I can replicate and improve upon the results I achieved using that method but with my normal (non-frozen) Lehmann NY style dough.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 04:32:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #831 on: April 18, 2010, 01:39:02 PM »
And the slice pics....

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #832 on: April 18, 2010, 01:58:34 PM »
Peter,

Your pizza looks delicious.  :) Your experiment and the details you gave were informative.  In my opinion your pie looks more Artisan looking.  It’s good to see the results of baking in a standard home oven with only a baking stone.

Nice experiment,

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #833 on: April 18, 2010, 02:13:58 PM »
Norma,

Thank you. I should also have mentioned that I was also influenced by scott123's post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9835.msg86426.html#msg86426. In my case, my configuration was not optimal from his perspective, but it was a start. I may trying the next level up in my oven for a future experiment. Although I was trying to avoid using two stones, maybe using two stones but higher up in the oven is another possible experiment so long as I can easily load the pizzas between the stones and view their progress during baking.

I perhaps should have been conducting oven experiments when it was cold here in Texas, not now that it is getting warmer by the day.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #834 on: April 18, 2010, 02:58:49 PM »
Peter,

That post by scott123 was really helpful, also.  I have been trying to figure out my old (about 34 years) oven and how to get the most out of the heat as I can.  So far I have only kept the stone on the bottom rack and sometimes will try the broiler.  It’s seems by his post that he would recommend baking on the top rack without other stones to put above, since I only have one stone.  That would make sense, because heat rises.

I can see when baking in the deck oven at market, how pies bake so much better, in comparison with my home oven..

Thanks for the link,

Norma.
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Offline sear

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #835 on: April 19, 2010, 09:44:01 AM »
yesterday i cooked another small ny style pie , this time i placed my large CI pan on the very bottom rack and the stone 2 positions higher. got the stone up to 570 and the pizza cooked in 6 minutes with the top being perfectly done, the bottom could have used a little bit more color.
i've been making my crust rim too big though , ill post a couple pics later

Offline sear

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #836 on: April 19, 2010, 05:47:00 PM »
good, but too much crust


Offline gtsum2

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #837 on: May 23, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
I did one last night (pics were erased somehow!?!?) and I have a long way to go to match these pies on here :(....Mine are getting better, but still quite a ways to go

Offline Shaklee3

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #838 on: June 13, 2010, 07:35:16 PM »
Here's my first attempt at the recipe on the first page of this topic. I did Pete's method of baking the pizza on the screen for 5 minutes, then on the stone for the remainder. I threw the basil on a little too early as you can see. Also, I would have preferred more crust, and it wasn't as chewy as I'd have liked. I was using GM better for bread flour since I have no KASL.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #839 on: June 13, 2010, 08:19:47 PM »
Shaklee3,

The Better for Bread flour, formerly known as Harvest King, is a good flour but it is a bit low on the protein scale. As noted at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc, it is nominally 12% protein. That is not much above the King Arthur all-purpose (KAAP) flour, which has a protein content of 11.7%. When I tried using the KAAP to make the Lehmann NY style, I did not get the same results as using the stronger King Arthur flours. I ended up adding vital wheat gluten to boost the protein content of the KAAP and dried dairy whey to get more crust color.

I think the King Arthur bread flour (KABF), which has a protein content of 12.7%, is a good flour for the Lehmann NY style but, even then, I usually add some vital wheat gluten (VWG) to get the protein content to about 14.2%, which is the protein content of the KASL. Since I initially got hooked on the KASL, it took me a while to get used to the KABF and KABF/VWG versions.

Another difference between the Better for Bread flour and the KABF is that the Better for Bread flour is milled from winter wheat whereas the KABF is milled from hard red spring wheat. I believe that that difference may mean somewhat different results.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the Harvest King flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/brand/general-mills-harvest-king


 

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