Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 572230 times)

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Offline Imaginate

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #825 on: February 19, 2010, 04:02:09 PM »
Thanks for the detailed reply.  I've been wanting to try something other than my version of the Reinhart formula, so that along with the pics in this thread led me to give the Lehmann formula a shot.

I actually didn't intend on getting to 12 inches with my pizzas.  As I said, they were hard to handle, and really just wanted to stretch out on their own.  Thinking on what you wrote, high hydration sounds like my problem there.  I don't normally bake on the lowest rack because it blackens the bottom a little too much, I use the next one up.  But I've always done a recipe with sugar and quite a bit more oil, so that's probably why.  I think I am going to try it again, lower hydration and baked on the bottom rack.  Sounds like that could help the pizza turn out better.  Thanks again for the reply!

Robin


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #826 on: March 04, 2010, 09:14:58 PM »
I recently took the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation and adapted it for a room temperature fermentation of over 24 hours. The photo below shows a pizza that I made using that dough. The dough formulation I used was as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.024%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.774%):
255.39 g  |  9.01 oz | 0.56 lbs
158.34 g  |  5.59 oz | 0.35 lbs
0.06 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp (Note: 0.06 grams of IDY is equal to about 1 ¼ of a 1/64 t. measuring spoon)
4.47 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
2.55 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
420.81 g | 14.84 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.096425
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.095; dough is for a single 14" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The pizza made using the above dough was a Kraft's Macaroni & Cheese pizza with buffalo chicken pieces and bacon and a blend of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese and medium cheddar cheese. For complete details, see Replies 128/129 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg92094.html#msg92094.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #827 on: March 17, 2010, 02:10:00 PM »
Jim,

 With respect to your question about using 58% hydration with a 550 degrees F oven, I either missed that question or treated it as being a rhetorical question. Had I answered that question directly, I would have said yes

Peter,

Well to  continue this thought I just made a couple 58% hydration doughs and we'll see how it goes! This is my formula via the dough calculator for two 15". I'll did a couple long room temp rests in the process, the 2nd as we speak. I've never gone this low on hydration, should be interesting to see. I can tell you one thing so far though. After the remaining flour went in it was so dry the mixer knocked the bowl lock loose not once but twice! I'm now resting it since second disconnection and will hand knead the final stage.

Flour (100%):    607.14 g  |  21.42 oz | 1.34 lbs
Water (58%):    352.14 g  |  12.42 oz | 0.78 lbs
IDY (0.532%):    3.23 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    10.62 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.9 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
Oil (1%):    6.07 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Sugar (revised down from original data to about 1.5%):    9 g
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #828 on: March 19, 2010, 09:53:52 AM »
Ok So 58% hydro dough certainly explains how the parlors seem to stretch dough so easily without tears, like these random shots.
http://blog.pennlive.com/italian-kitchen/2009/04/large_Stretching%20Raw%20Pizza%20Dough%20JJ.jpg

http://www.foodstyle.co.nz/2009_magazine/articles/art_images/dante%20stretching%20the%20dough%20web.jpg

I was able to swat a wasp from mid-air, throw it up at a passing bird who actually rode the discus for awhile before it fell to earth, you get the idea. Indestructible I'd say. Not only doesn't it window pane but particular attention needs to be paid to stretching the middle, aerial tosses are almost a must. It was also a mammoth ball, 450gs, so 22" could have been reached with a peel and oven to accommodate. As it is it was hanging off both ends of the 15" stone.

All in all it was ok, not great, dry I'd call it mostly. What gets me more confused is it cooked way faster than I expected at 550, after 5 mins it was a bit overdone and I was shocked it got away from me. This makes me concede that most places don't cook at far higher temps as I said previously, but makes me wonder how if not higher temps how do they keep it from being so dry in the 'pro shops'. All in all a confusing experiment, nothing solidified, but not a bad pizza by any means. Certainly closer to street than elite, just without the lightness and moisture. This was also the 1 day ferment, I added sugar to do a 3 day too on 2nd ball, I'll let you know if there's much difference when 2nd is cooked.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 10:01:04 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline tager99

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #829 on: March 19, 2010, 10:53:10 AM »
Newbie here, but I wanted to give a quick shout out to all of the pizza makers on this site for helping me along my journey to make a decent pie, especially Pete!

I have been doing some pies here and there without much success, until last night.  I followed most of directions from this forum and cranked up the oven to 500, with the pizza stone on the bottom rack.  Had the dough out of the fridge for a couple hour rest.  Made a couple medium pies and the came out lovely.  I wish I shot a couple pictures, but it was eaten by the family too quickly.  I am going to make more tonight.

My wife said it tasted like a gourmet brick oven pizza.  Can't get a better compliment than that!  Anyway, thanks again!!
 :pizza:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #830 on: April 18, 2010, 01:33:30 PM »
For some time, I have wanted to see if there was an easy and convenient way to make a more artisan looking Lehmann NY style pizza in my circa-1989 standard builder’s-grade Whirlpool electric oven. Heretofore, I have used either a preheated 14” x 16” pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position of my oven or a combination of the pizza stone and a screen for pizzas larger than my pizza stone can handle. On a few occasions, I tried using two pizza stones spaced apart from each other. However, I discovered that it takes considerably longer to preheat two stones than one and, in addition, I could not clearly see the back edge of the bottom stone as I was trying to load a pizza onto that stone, especially one that was 14” (the largest size pizza my stone can handle) and required very accurate positioning so as not to overshoot the stone. Also, I discovered that the top stone shielded the pizza from view such that I could not see it through the glass window in my oven door as it was baking. I did not want to have to open the oven door too much to see the progress of the pizza.

Over time, I noticed that our members developed many ingenious ways of using pizza stones and cast iron pans and sheet pans and tiles and aluminum foil to elevate the temperatures of the oven such that the pizzas baked up with greater oven spring and with good-sized bubbles and with better crust color and a decent amount of char. In some cases, the broiler element was an integral component of the particular configuration used. Also, some members found ways of getting around their oven clean cycles in order to get higher oven temperatures. However, what I was looking for was a method that only involved one stone and was easy and convenient to use and where I could see the pizza at all times as it was baking. I wanted to have the greatest control over the pizza as possible.

The closest arrangement that I could find that seemed to meet my requirements is the one that member Pete Waldman described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6585.msg56478.html#msg56478. In the Waldman arrangement, the pizza stone is placed at the top-third of the oven and preheated at an oven setting of 550 degrees F for about 45 minutes, followed by turning on the broiler element for about 10 minutes. The oven setting is then turned back to 550 degrees F. I wasn’t sure how this method would work in my oven since the broiler element cuts off when the oven temperature exceeds about 525 degrees F (Pete did not say whether his broiler works the same way). However, I decided to give the Waldman method a try. The first photo below shows my oven configuration using this method.

For the experiment, I used a defrosted dough ball that had originally been cold fermented for three days and then re-balled, flattened, inserted into a plastic storage bag and placed in the freezer compartment of my refrigerator and frozen for about 17 ½ days. The frozen dough ball was then transferred to the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator and allowed to defrost for about one day. It was then left at a room temperature of around 72 degrees F for about an hour and a half. The dough was sufficient to make a single 14” pizza and had the following formulation based on the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.375%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.125%):
241.43 g  |  8.52 oz | 0.53 lbs
149.69 g  |  5.28 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.91 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
4.23 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.41 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
398.66 g | 14.06 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.09135
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; dough for a single 14” pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%
* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 234.71 grams (8.28 ounces) King Arthur bread flour and 6.72 grams (0.24 ounces) Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (about 1 ½ t.)

When time came to work with the defrosted dough, I found it to have a somewhat unusual combination of extensibility and elasticity--in the sense that the dough ball opened up very easily and was highly extensible but it also had a tendency to then shrink back. So it took a few tries to get the skin to the full 14” size. The skin also exhibited a lot of fermentation bubbles, which I took to be a good sign. Once the skin was placed on my peel (with semolina flour as a release agent), it was dressed with pizza sauce (I used the Pastene Kitchen Ready ground peeled tomatoes with a bit of sugar, freshly ground black pepper, garlic powder, grated Pecorino Romano cheese, and dried oregano); low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese that I had diced in my Cuisinart food processor; a mixture of sautéed and very thinly sliced raw mushrooms; hot Italian sausage (Johnsonville) that I had removed from its casing, formed into thumb-sized pieces and briefly microwaved to reduce the fat content; and pepperoni slices.

In preparation for loading the pizza on the pizza stone, which had been preheated for about 45 minutes at around 525 degrees F, I turned on the broiler element for about 10 minutes. Since my broiler element kicks off at around 525 degrees F, I occasionally opened up the oven door so that the broiler element would turn on again. This helped get the stone temperature to around 585-600 degrees F. After ten minutes, I turned the broiler off and set the oven temperature back to its highest setting. The pizza was then loaded onto the stone where it baked for about 4 minutes. There was very good oven spring, with a lot of good-sized bubbles, good top crust coloration, decent char, and the cheeses and toppings were baking properly. However, when I removed the pizza from the oven, I noticed that the bottom of the crust was lighter than the top of the crust. I attributed this to the fact that the stone was some distance from the lower heating element and perhaps the bottom of the crust wasn’t getting sufficient heat to produce greater color. The thought also occurred to me that it was also possible that the dough was low in residual sugar after about a total of four days of fermentation (three days initially and about another day in the refrigerator and during tempering) and, hence, resulted in less crust coloration. If that was indeed true, it would be something that could be easily corrected in future doughs, as by adding a small amount of sugar to the doughs. In any event, I simply moved the pizza off of the stone to the lowest oven rack position where the bottom crust developed normal coloration from exposure to the bottom heating element. I would estimate that the pizza was on the lowest oven rack position for about a minute.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well, given the limitations of my oven. The crust was chewy and crispy and with good flavor and with a profusion of bubbles and blisters. And the pizza clearly had a more artisan NY style appearance. I hope to continue to experiment with the Waldman method to see if I can replicate and improve upon the results I achieved using that method but with my normal (non-frozen) Lehmann NY style dough.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #831 on: April 18, 2010, 01:39:02 PM »
And the slice pics....

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #832 on: April 18, 2010, 01:58:34 PM »
Peter,

Your pizza looks delicious.  :) Your experiment and the details you gave were informative.  In my opinion your pie looks more Artisan looking.  It’s good to see the results of baking in a standard home oven with only a baking stone.

Nice experiment,

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #833 on: April 18, 2010, 02:13:58 PM »
Norma,

Thank you. I should also have mentioned that I was also influenced by scott123's post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9835.msg86426.html#msg86426. In my case, my configuration was not optimal from his perspective, but it was a start. I may trying the next level up in my oven for a future experiment. Although I was trying to avoid using two stones, maybe using two stones but higher up in the oven is another possible experiment so long as I can easily load the pizzas between the stones and view their progress during baking.

I perhaps should have been conducting oven experiments when it was cold here in Texas, not now that it is getting warmer by the day.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #834 on: April 18, 2010, 02:58:49 PM »
Peter,

That post by scott123 was really helpful, also.  I have been trying to figure out my old (about 34 years) oven and how to get the most out of the heat as I can.  So far I have only kept the stone on the bottom rack and sometimes will try the broiler.  It’s seems by his post that he would recommend baking on the top rack without other stones to put above, since I only have one stone.  That would make sense, because heat rises.

I can see when baking in the deck oven at market, how pies bake so much better, in comparison with my home oven..

Thanks for the link,

Norma.

Offline sear

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #835 on: April 19, 2010, 09:44:01 AM »
yesterday i cooked another small ny style pie , this time i placed my large CI pan on the very bottom rack and the stone 2 positions higher. got the stone up to 570 and the pizza cooked in 6 minutes with the top being perfectly done, the bottom could have used a little bit more color.
i've been making my crust rim too big though , ill post a couple pics later

Offline sear

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #836 on: April 19, 2010, 05:47:00 PM »
good, but too much crust


Offline gtsum2

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #837 on: May 23, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
I did one last night (pics were erased somehow!?!?) and I have a long way to go to match these pies on here :(....Mine are getting better, but still quite a ways to go

Offline Shaklee3

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #838 on: June 13, 2010, 07:35:16 PM »
Here's my first attempt at the recipe on the first page of this topic. I did Pete's method of baking the pizza on the screen for 5 minutes, then on the stone for the remainder. I threw the basil on a little too early as you can see. Also, I would have preferred more crust, and it wasn't as chewy as I'd have liked. I was using GM better for bread flour since I have no KASL.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #839 on: June 13, 2010, 08:19:47 PM »
Shaklee3,

The Better for Bread flour, formerly known as Harvest King, is a good flour but it is a bit low on the protein scale. As noted at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc, it is nominally 12% protein. That is not much above the King Arthur all-purpose (KAAP) flour, which has a protein content of 11.7%. When I tried using the KAAP to make the Lehmann NY style, I did not get the same results as using the stronger King Arthur flours. I ended up adding vital wheat gluten to boost the protein content of the KAAP and dried dairy whey to get more crust color.

I think the King Arthur bread flour (KABF), which has a protein content of 12.7%, is a good flour for the Lehmann NY style but, even then, I usually add some vital wheat gluten (VWG) to get the protein content to about 14.2%, which is the protein content of the KASL. Since I initially got hooked on the KASL, it took me a while to get used to the KABF and KABF/VWG versions.

Another difference between the Better for Bread flour and the KABF is that the Better for Bread flour is milled from winter wheat whereas the KABF is milled from hard red spring wheat. I believe that that difference may mean somewhat different results.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the Harvest King flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/brand/general-mills-harvest-king

Offline Shaklee3

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #840 on: June 13, 2010, 11:14:09 PM »
Thanks Pete! I happen to have some vital wheat gluten here, so I'll try adding some next time I use this recipe. How much VWG do you add for a single dough?

I'm working with one of the other forum members to get KASL in the San Diego area, so hopefully I'll be able to try that soon.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #841 on: June 14, 2010, 09:45:41 AM »
How much VWG do you add for a single dough?

Shaklee3,

I use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to calculate how much of the formula flour to replace with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to achieve a targeted protein content for the blend. You will note that the Harvest King flour and the most common brands of VWG are in the pull-down menus. If you have trouble using the tool, let me know and I will help you with the calculation.

To give you a simple example, however, assume that your dough formulation calls for 10 ounces of Harvest King (Better for Bread) flour for your dough ball and that you want to increase its protein content from 12% to 14.2% (the protein content of KASL) using the Bob's Red Mill brand of VWG. In this example, you select the Harvest King flour in pull-down menu A and you select the Bob's Red Mill in pull-down menu B (you can also do it in reverse). You enter 10 in the Mass box and 14.2 in the % box. If you then click on the background, you should get 9.8508 (ounces) in the MassA box and 0.3492 (ounces) in the MassB box. Since one teaspoon of Bob's Red Mill VWG weighs 0.0881834 ounces (I calculated this value from the nutrition data from Bob's Red Mill), you would add 0.3492/0.088134 = 3.96 teaspoons, or roughly 4 teaspoons, of the Bob's Red mill VWG to the 9.85 ounces of Harvest King flour. Doing this sort of supplementation with VWG is not the same as using a 14.2% protein high-gluten flour to start out with. But is the closest you are likely to get under the circumstances. I used ounces in the above example, but you can use grams if you prefer but you will have to convert the grams for the Bob's Red Mill VWG to ounces to get to teaspoons.

Peter


Offline jever4321

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #842 on: June 21, 2010, 11:24:02 AM »
Hi everyone, first post.

I've been trying to make homemade pizza for about two months now. I had about a dozen swing and misses, so I decided to take everyones advise and weigh the ingreedients. I used Pete's recipe in the first post and VIOLA. My wife and kids were about to give up on my pizza making skills, but the last pie bought me some more time. Thanks Pete. I'll try to post pics.

I moved to central Ohio, from New York about 20 years ago, and I feel like this area is a black hole for pizza. It's COMPLETELY different here.

Thanks to all for the willingness to share their insights and wisdom.

Jason
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #843 on: June 21, 2010, 11:27:07 AM »
Couldn't post pics, it said file was too big? and I was just trying 1 at a time?
-Jay

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #844 on: June 21, 2010, 02:53:26 PM »
Couldn't post pics, it said file was too big? and I was just trying 1 at a time?

Jason,

There are apparently many ways to size photos and get them into a form that can be embedded in posts, but maybe this thread will be helpful: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,792.msg7205.html#msg7205. Or, possibly some of our most computer-savvy members can help you.

Peter

Offline Shaklee3

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #845 on: June 21, 2010, 04:04:14 PM »
Jever, download the photo resizer application from microsoft:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

Right click your photo, and choose medium or large. You should be able to upload either of those.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #846 on: June 21, 2010, 05:37:54 PM »
Jever, download the photo resizer application from microsoft:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

Right click your photo, and choose medium or large. You should be able to upload either of those.



Thank you Shaklee!  I just downloaded it. 

Offline jever4321

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #847 on: June 23, 2010, 08:47:37 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I am on vacation until 7/5. I will download that and try to post some pictures when I return home.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #848 on: July 07, 2010, 12:15:50 AM »
I'm still having trouble with the picture function here. I tried downloading the app from Microsoft, but it didn't work on my computer. Resizing is kind of a P.I.T.A. and it looks blurry for some reason? My computer skills are deficient.
-Jay

Offline jever4321

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #849 on: July 07, 2010, 12:19:25 AM »
Swing 3.
-Jay


 

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