Author Topic: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style  (Read 86993 times)

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Offline Jackitup

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2007, 10:06:28 AM »
You are very astute young man. It goes on there right out of the oven for a couple minutes, then slide off for cutting on the board and then back to the screen til completely cool so the crust doesn't get that vapor/humidity trapped between it and the board and get soggy spots around the cut areas, and then wrapped to the fridge for leftovers. Crust stays much drier this way. Then for reheating using the covered skillet method like I said above. It'll make some great leftovers today. Both Rosie and I agree....we have finally found the perfect crust for out tastes, not that I won't fiddle with other styles now and then but this will be our "finally found it" crust.
Jon
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2008, 10:16:12 AM »
I recently decided to see if I could make a crispy and cracker-style pizza without using any machine to make the dough (that is, I would hand knead the dough), and without using a proofing box, a cutter pan (or other pan, screen or disk), or even a pizza stone, and without needing a dough docker. Although using a scale would be useful, and recommended, even that would not be necessary. I was hoping also to avoid having to use a peel to deposit and remove the pizza (and pre-baked skin) from the oven but concluded that doing so would create more problems than it would solve and increase the risk of a mishap. Of course, using a rolling pin was a necessity. It is not possible in a home setting to roll out a dough with a hydration of around 36% without it (although some members who have a pasta maker at their disposal may have a measure of success using that machine).

As will be noted below, other than the peel, the pizza equipment and gear necessary to make the pizza are ordinary everyday items found in just about every kitchen, and almost certainly in the homes of most of our members.

To conduct the latest test, I decided to make a 14” pizza. Using the previously described variation of DKM’s basic cracker-style dough recipe, I came up with the following dough formulation as produced by the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour (100%):
Water (36%):
IDY (1%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):
Sugar (1.2%):
Total (143.45%):
244.47 g  |  8.62 oz | 0.54 lbs (2 cups)
88.01 g  |  3.1 oz | 0.19 lbs (a bit more than 3/8 cup, viewed at eye level)
2.44 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
4.28 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
8.56 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
2.93 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
350.69 g | 12.37 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.07
(Note: No bowl residue compensation used)

In using the dough calculating tool, I entered a thickness factor of 0.07 and a pizza size of 15”, or one inch greater than the final desired pizza size of 14”. The difference would be scrap. It will also be noted (in italics) that I converted the flour and water used in the dough formulation to volume measurements for those who do not have a scale or do not wish to use one. To convert the weight of flour to a volume measurement, I used member November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. In so doing, I selected the flour I planned to use, Harvest King flour, in the pull-down menu. The conversion was about 2 cups. To measure out the flour, I stirred the Harvest King flour in the bag to loosen it, and lifted the flour from the bag into my one-cup metal measuring cup using an ordinary kitchen tablespoon. The measuring cup was filled to slightly overflowing and then leveled off using the flat back edge of an ordinary kitchen butter knife. I did this two times with the one-cup measuring cup. When I reweighed the flour after measuring it out, I found that I was very close to the weight produced using November’s calculator.

I would normally use November’s calculator to do a weight-to-volume conversion for the formula water, but I have discovered that my one-cup glass Pyrex measuring cup does not produce the same results as given by the calculator. So, I used a conversion factor of 8.1 fluid ounces of water per cup (instead of 8.345 oz.).

To prepare the dough, I followed the steps previously described in Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49722.html#msg49722. To spare readers from having to jump back and forth between that post and this one, I will describe here the steps I used to make the latest dough.

To prepare the dough, I started by adding the IDY to the flour (Harvest King, unsifted), which I then stirred to uniformly incorporate the IDY. The formula water, which was plain tap water at room temperature (about 72 degrees F), was then placed into a large mixing bowl, and the salt and sugar were added to the water and stirred until dissolved, about 30 seconds. The flour/IDY was then added at about two tablespoons at a time into the water in the bowl, and I used an ordinary kitchen fork to incorporate the ingredients. I continued this until approximately two-thirds of the flour had been added and a rough dough mass had formed around the fork. The reason I used the fork was to minimize gluten development, which could make the finished dough elastic and more difficult to roll out. After combining the ingredients in the bowl to this point, I covered the bowl with a towel and let the dough rest for about 15 minutes, to allow for better hydration of the flour.

At the end of the 15-minute rest period, I added the remaining flour to the bowl, along with the oil. I combined the ingredients in the bowl by gently kneading them right in the bowl using my hands. The contents of the bowl were then emptied onto a work surface. I realized at this point that the dough would not be wet enough to form into a cohesive dough ball because of the natural shortcomings of trying to make a dough ball by hand with a dough hydration of only 36%. This is one place where a machine does a better job. So, I took the dough ball as it had been formed to this point and tore it into small pieces, or scraps, about the size a nickel. I then spread the dough pieces and flour over the work surface into a fairly thin layer. The first photo below shows the results of that exercise. Using a simple, inexpensive spray bottle (as described in the post referenced above), I then sprayed the dough materials on the work surface with water from the spray bottle. I estimate that it took about 40-45 sprays to sufficiently cover everything. Since spray bottles come in many forms, the actual number of sprays is not particularly critical. What is important is that the dough scraps be wetted enough to be able to adhere to each other and form a dough ball that will not fall apart.

I formed the dough scraps into a dough ball by gathering and pressing the dough scraps and loose flour together until I had a dough ball that held together. This turned out to be a fairly easy task. I pressed the dough tightly between my cupped hands but I did not knead the dough ball because I did not want to overly develop the gluten structure. The second photo below shows the dough ball at this stage. I later estimated that adding the additional water by way of the spray bottle increased the hydration of the dough from its starting value of 36% to about 38.7%. So, the dough was still a low-hydration dough. Once the dough was prepared, I put it into a lidded Rubbermaid plastic storage container.

The next step was perhaps the most important. As I have previously reported, I use a proofing box to warm up a low-hydration dough to make it roll out much more easily and quickly using an ordinary rolling pin. I still believe that the proofing box is the best device to use for dough warming purposes because of its low cost and simplicity of design and use, and efficient temperature control. However, I realize that not all members are prepared to construct such a device. So, this time, I used a variation of the method described by Jackitup (Jon) in which I heated a standard stockpot filled about two-thirds with water to about 135 degrees F (as measured by a simple analog thermometer) and submerged the dough storage container into the stockpot. To keep the dough container submerged, I put a brick on top of it, and then covered the pot to keep the water from cooling down too quickly.

The dough container remained in the stockpot for one hour. At the end of the hour, the water temperature in the stockpot had dropped to around 105 degrees F. In retrospect, I might have added more hot water to the stock pot and allowed the dough container to remain in the stock pot for about another half hour or so in order to allow the dough to expand more. That is what I would suggest that others do. After one hour, the dough rose but only by about 25%. I concluded that the stockpot method was not as efficient as the proofing box. However, it is a simple and reasonable alternative. An even better alternative would be to use a prewarmed oven provided that there is a way of monitoring the temperature of the oven (as with a digital display) so as to prevent overheating the dough and possibly killing some of the yeast. Most other alternatives I could think of, including a ThermoKool unit, would entail a sizable expenditure.

Once the dough container was removed from the stockpot, I placed the dough ball on a lightly floured work surface. I then flattened the dough ball gently by hand and rolled it out with a rolling pin to 15”. This was done without much difficulty but not quite as easily as the previous hand kneaded dough that I made that was warmed up for about two hours in my proofing box. From the 15” skin, I cut a 14” skin using a 14” pizza screen as a template. The third photo below (without flash) shows the 15” skin. I calculated that the thickness factor for the skin was 0.06594 based on a dough weight of 10.15 ounces. That value was within the normal range I have been using. In the same manner as I have described many times before in this thread, I dusted the skin with a bit of flour, folded it into quarters, encased it in plastic wrap (as shown in the fourth photo below), and put it into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about one day. For those who are in no hurry, I would recommend two or three days. It should also be possible to use a one-day room temperature fermentation and use the dough warming method at the end of that fermentation.

After I removed the dough skin from the refrigerator and let it warm up (uncovered) at room temperature for about an hour and a half, I rolled it out a bit more with the rolling pin to compensate for minor shrinkage while the dough skin was in the refrigerator. I then docked the skin with the kitchen fork, oiled the dough skin using an ordinary pastry brush, and then flipped the skin over onto a sheet of aluminum foil (I actually used two sheets joined together to form a single sheet large enough to use with the 15” skin). The idea to use the aluminum foil came from Jackitup. I then docked the other side (top) of the skin using the kitchen fork. The dough skin on the aluminum foil then went into the oven, which had been preheated for about 12 minutes to 475 degrees F. The dough skin (on the foil) went onto the lowest oven rack position and was allowed to pre-bake for about 6 minutes, or until the pre-baked skin started to turn light brown. There were a lot of small bubbles but not large ones. The fifth photo below (without flash) shows the pre-baked skin at this point.

After the pre-baked skin was removed from the oven, it was dressed using, in sequence, slices of low-moisture part skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand), Wal-Mart crushed tomatoes with puree (straight out of the can and placed in dollops over the slices of cheese), dried Italian basil and Italian oregano (originally grown in my garden), raw pieces of sausage (one-half link of Texas wild boar sausage), a mixture of diced red and green peppers, onions and sliced fresh mushrooms, and pepperoni (Hormel) slices. The pizza, still on the aluminum foil, was then put back into the oven and baked for about 7 minutes at 475 degrees F on the lowest oven rack position, at which time I removed the aluminum foil and allowed the pizza to bake for about 5 more minutes so that the bottom of the crust would dry out more and form a crispy bottom. I then moved the pizza to the uppermost oven rack position for about a minute or two to finish baking the top of the pizza.

It was the above movements and manipulations of the pizza within the oven that I used a peel--in my case, a metal peel. It would have been significantly more difficult to conduct these maneuvers solely by hand (although I did try to do some of this) or by using a baking sheet or similar contrivance. If I had one, a take-and-bake tray such as available from Pactiv and others and intended to be used without a peel or stone in an ordinary home oven might have been a good alternative. If one is careful, using a pizza screen or disk as a transfer mechanism, along with a good set of oven gloves, might also work.  

The remaining photos show the finished pizza. The pizza turned out very well and was crispy and crackery and with good crust flavor and color. I still believe that using a cutter pan or a pizza stone is a better choice but for those who have neither and still want to be able to make a decent crispy and crackery pizza, it can be done without using either of those items. I did notice, however, that when baking directly on the oven racks without a cutter pan or stone, it took several minutes longer for the pizza to bake to the point where the crust was crispy and cracker-like. That is actually consistent with the times used to bake most take-and-bake pizzas. So, that means that one will have to experiment with the rack positions and bake times to achieve the desired results. But these aspects are manageable with some practice and experimentation.

I welcome any suggestions for making the process even easier and simpler.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:32:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2008, 10:20:02 AM »
Photos at preliminary stages...

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2008, 10:26:41 AM »
And photos of the pre-baked crust and the finished pizza...

Peter

Offline 2stone

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2008, 10:51:43 AM »
Peter,

I will take the time to read your post when I have a chance,
But your finished product is absolutely "mouthwatering"
If your pie tasted half as good as it looks, you scored a home run!

It would definitely qualify as an "Artisan pie"  :D

regards,
willard

 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #130 on: January 31, 2008, 11:08:01 AM »
Willard,

Thank you.

This was sort of a "build it and they will come" effort with all of the ideas and details in one place (which is what many members seem to like). Unfortunately, we get very little feedback from members who try out recipes on the forum (with the possible exception of the Lehmann dough recipes). Apparently they prefer to be part of the silent majority (we have a lot of lurkers), or else they are too bashful to post, or maybe they have limited typing skills or no time to post. I'm sure that there are a ton of good ideas out there that never see the light of day on the forum because the authors do not post.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 11:46:17 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #131 on: January 31, 2008, 11:55:59 AM »
So, I used a conversion factor of 8.1 fluid ounces of water per cup (instead of 8.345 oz.).

For whatever strange reason you get a value other than 8.3 oz, I bet the more exact value for you is 8.115365448 oz based on U.S. regulation 21 CFR 101.9(b)(5)(viii) and U.S. customary fluid ounces.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #132 on: January 31, 2008, 12:10:31 PM »
For whatever strange reason you get a value other than 8.3 oz, I bet the more exact value for you is 8.115365448 oz based on U.S. regulation 21 CFR 101.9(b)(5)(viii) and U.S. customary fluid ounces.

November,

Thanks for that piece of information. When I weighed the water after using the conversion data from your calculator, I got a hydration figure of just under 32% based on the actual weight of flour that I got after using your calculator. That would have been a shortfall of about 4%. Fortunately, in this case, I didn't think that the shortfall would be fatal since the amount of water would have to be adjusted in any event when the dough scraps and unmixed flour went onto the work surface for further preparation. In other cases, a shortfall of 4% could be significant. Hence, my preference for using a scale. But when converting recipes stated in volumes, I always use your calculator as much as possible for the flour and water.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:12:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #133 on: January 31, 2008, 12:37:33 PM »
Peter,

I still think it's very strange that you arrive at anything but 8.3454044 oz or 8.0179303 oz.  To get 8.115365448 oz, I used the 240 mL cup regulation and converted to U.S. customary fluid ounces.  That makes it the wrong type of unit (fluid versus dry), but it's the only calculation that comes close to 8.1.


Offline MWTC

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #134 on: January 31, 2008, 01:55:10 PM »
Peter,

Would you explain your rationale for using a bread flour as compared to other choices for your cracker style pizza.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #135 on: January 31, 2008, 02:56:23 PM »
Would you explain your rationale for using a bread flour as compared to other choices for your cracker style pizza.

MWTC,

When I first decided that I wanted to learn more about the cracker-style of pizza, I read most of the threads and posts on the subject. Although I saw all kinds of flours used to make that style, from all-purpose to high-gluten, several members said that they liked the Harvest King flour. I tried it and liked it, so I have stuck with it. However, as I have theorized before, I tend to think that the type of flour used to make thin-crusted pizzas is less critical than for thick-crusted pizzas. With a thin crust, you get less crust in a bite and a lot more of the cheese and toppings. So you don't detect the thickness or flavor of the crust as much as a result. You will, however, note the texture of the crust. With a soft and thick crust with a lot of soft crumb, you detect the crust more, since there is more of it in every bite, and proportionately less of the cheese and toppings (assuming in both of my examples that the same amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings are used). I would say that in my cracker-style pizzas I use pretty much the same amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings as I use for, say, a typical Lehmann NY style. In fact, sometimes I overload a cracker style crust just to see how much it can handle without getting soggy.

With a cracker type crust, in the words of Marshall McLuhan, "the medium is the message". You want the crust to be thin, crispy and crackery. As noted above, I don't think that the type of flour matters all that much, although I still believe that it is a good idea to use a long fermentation, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator, to get better crust flavors. The cracker style of pizza is also one of the few places where I might advocate using a lot of yeast. It is mainly for flavor purposes since rolling out the dough forces out all of the gases that are produced during fermentation. Also, as a corollary benefit, if you use a cutter pan or the aluminum foil method that Jackitup (Jon) uses, you can still work with the dough (including patching up holes and the like) if the dough overferments for some reason, which it can easily do if you use a lot of yeast and a long room temperature fermentation. And you can take your time dressing the pizza, and not rush as you would have to do when using a peel.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 04:07:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Randy

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2008, 03:47:34 PM »
I'm going to use my same mixer recipe but adopt your procedure for mixing but still using the KA. and see what happens.  That is one great looking pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #137 on: January 31, 2008, 04:04:55 PM »
Thanks, Randy.

One of the other things that I discovered in making the thin crust pizzas is that it is a good idea to run the sauce and cheese and even the toppings out to the edges as far as possible. Doing that helps keep the edges from browning too fast (although they are not burnt and taste fine) and affecting the aesthetics of the pizza. Running things to the edges is obviously much easier to do when a cutter pan is used, or when the aluminum foil method is used. When done on a peel, you have to be careful not to get any sauce on the peel or parts of the cheese or toppings since that might interfere with depositing the pizza into the oven and onto a stone. That might suggest not going as far out to the edges with the cheese and toppings although even then I would still cover the edges with the sauce to slow down the baking of the edges. When a peel is used, I also highly recommend that cornmeal or semolina be used as a release agent, as was suggested recently by John (fazzari).

Peter

« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 04:08:12 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #138 on: February 07, 2008, 07:59:29 PM »
For my latest attempt at the DKM cracker-style pizza, I decided to try the specific version recommended by member Jimmy V at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4406.msg52275.html#msg52275. Jimmy’s recipe is recited in volumetrics, as follows:

3 1/ cups  All purpose flour
3/4 water  at about 90-100 degree F
3 teaspoons  vegetable oil
1 1/2 teaspoons sugar
1 teaspoon salt  ( I use sea salt )
1 1/2 teaspoons   Active dry yeast

I decided to use half of Jimmy’s recipe since I wanted to make only a single pizza of 14”. I wasn’t sure whether Jimmy meant for his recipe to make only a single pizza but since he said to roll the dough out THIN (his emphasis), I assumed that he meant his recipe to apply to two pizzas, especially since I estimated that the total dough batch weight would be almost 24 ounces, which seemed too much for a single thin pizza, even a 16” pizza (Jimmy did not specify a final pizza size).

In reviewing the above recipe, I assumed that Jimmy meant to use 3 ˝ cups of flour, which I divided in half. If I was wrong, I’d be happy to use my Moderator powers to correct his recipe. Since Jimmy did not indicate how he specifically measured out the flour for his recipe, I simply stirred the flour in my flour bag (Kroger all-purpose flour), dipped my measuring cups into the bag of flour, gently shook the measuring cups so that the flour settled into the measuring cups, and then leveled off the tops. The water was measured out by filling the water to the 3/8 c. level, as viewed at eye level. In order to determine the hydration level for the recipe, I weighed both the flour and water as measured out using volume measurements. On the basis of their weights (8.20 oz. for the flour and 3.15 oz. for the water), I calculated a hydration of 38.4%, or about 2.4% greater than the hydration specified in the original DKM dough formulation.

I prepared the dough as closely as possible to the way that Jimmy described in the abovereferenced post. However, since Jimmy did not say which attachment to use with the mixer, I initially used the C-hook. When that did not do the job particularly well (the dough was dry and the C-hook just spun in the middle of the dough), I switched to the flat beater, which did a much better job. Since I was making a smaller dough batch, I kneaded the dough (at the stir and 2 speeds) for a total of about 5 minutes. That did not include the time that I stopped the mixer to try to combine the ingredients by hand. The dough, such as it was, was on the dry side. I dumped the contents of the mixer bowl onto my work surface. The first photo below shows the condition of the dough at that stage. I gathered all of the dough scraps and pressed them together as best I could to produce the dough ball as shown in the second photo below. It, too, was dry, but it held together—just barely. Its weight was 11.85 ounces, and its temperature was 70.5 degrees F. Although Jimmy did not say to lightly coat the dough ball with oil before putting it into its storage container, I did so anyway so that a crust would not form on the surface. The dough within its container (a lidded plastic Rubbermaid container) went onto my kitchen counter for almost 27 hours, at a room temperature of around 68 degrees F.

The third photo below shows the dough after rising within the container. I would estimate that it rose by about 50%. As can be seen in the third photo, the dough looked like a brain, with a lot of cracks and crevices due to the expansion of the dough. To form the skin, I then rolled the dough out as thinly as possible. The dough was still quite dry, and it took close to 10 minutes to roll it out, but I persisted anyway. I rolled the dough out to around 15” and, using a 14” pizza screen as a template, I cut a 14” skin out of the rolled out dough. The skin had the tendency to shrink, so I had to continue to roll out the skin to keep it at roughly 14”. The weight of the skin was 7.75 ounces. On that basis, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.050345. That was thinner than the values I have been using for the versions of the DKM recipe I have made. The fourth photo below shows the 14” skin (without flash).

Although Jimmy did not say whether the dough should be docked on both sides, I did so anyway. I then pre-baked the skin on my pizza stone, which I had preheated for about an hour at 500 degrees F. Since Jimmy did not say which oven rack position the stone should be placed, I decided to put it on the lowermost oven rack position, as is my usual practice. The skin was pre-baked on the stone for 5 minutes. The pre-baked crust was light in color, as Jimmy said it should be. As can be seen in the fifth photo below, the pre-baked crust had several bubbles, of medium to small size. The crust was rigid.

I dressed the pre-baked crust in the following sequence: slices of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand), dollops of Wal-Mart Great Value crushed canned tomatoes (right out of the can), dried basil and oregano, pepperoni slices (Hormel), diced red and green bell peppers and sliced raw mushrooms, pieces of raw hot Italian sausage (Kroger brand), and slices of pepperoncini hot peppers. The dressed pizza was baked on the stone, also at 500 degrees F, for 8 minutes, following which the oven was turned off and the pizza was baked for another minute under the broiler element. The remaining photos show the finished pizza, a typical slice, and a bottom view of the slice.

I thought that the pizza turned out quite well. The crust was crispy, with a saltine-like color, texture and crunch. There were good flavors of fermentation, and the pizza easily supported the cheese and the many toppings I used. The next time I try Jimmy’s recipe, I think I would be inclined to use the Harvest King flour because of its flavor and color contributions, and also one of the dough warming methods described earlier in this thread in order to simplify and speed up the process of rolling out the dough, with fewer ragged and irregular edges. I think I would also be inclined to pre-make the skin and put it into the refrigerator for about 1-2 days, mainly for convenience.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 03:18:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #139 on: February 07, 2008, 08:06:53 PM »
And the remaining photos...

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2008, 09:28:23 PM »
Should We start referring to you as Cracker Master?   :angel:

Or would the "Politically Correct" Police see it as an insensitivity?   :-D

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2008, 09:37:53 PM »
Should We start referring to you as Cracker Master?   :angel:

Or would the "Politically Correct" Police see it as an insensitivity?   :-D

MWTC  :chef:

MWTC,

I once tried to use the term "cracker", as in "Polly wants a cracker", as part of a security measure in checking into a particular website and was told that the term was offensive and wouldn't be allowed. It didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. As far as being a "master" of the cracker style, that is my objective, but I am not there yet although I feel more comfortable with each new pizza I make. I have learned that sometimes the only way to learn something is to just do it...and do it...and do it.

Peter


Offline Jimmy V

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #142 on: February 08, 2008, 10:38:46 AM »
Peter, Im glad you tried the recipe. I did use the "C" hook on my kithenAid and yes, it was 3  1/2 cups all pourpose flour. I baked the pizza on the 2nd. shelf from the bottom. I only docked one side . I should try doing both sides. Another thing I might try is letting the dough proof in the refridgerator rather than at room temp. I did discover one thing, I can par-bake the crust 3-4 minutes, let it cool and put the toppings on it and freeze it, then bake it on a pizza pan with the holes in it and it actually comes out great. Your dough looked slightly drier than mine before you formed the ball, but as I mentioned these arent exact weights and measures. Im glad you had good results tho. And I think there is definately room for "science" in these recipes to further refine the results.I'm open to any suggestions too. Happy baking !

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #143 on: February 08, 2008, 11:24:47 AM »
Jimmy,

I will modify your original post to correct the amount of flour so it isn't left hanging. If you would also like me to amend your post to clarify the other aspects, let me know and I will be happy to do so. That way, all of the information will be in one place. Otherwise, I will let your last post serve as further clarification of your recipe and its method of preparation.

Can you confirm whether you used the dough to make one or two pizzas, and also the size(s) of the pizza(s)? When I have been making the recent versions of DKM's recipe, I have scaled down the numbers to keep the scrap at a minimum. As a result, the dough weight numbers I retain in my head (and on paper) are lower than what the recipe states.

Out of curiosity, how do you measure out the flour for your pizzas? I might be able to replicate your method and be able to come up with a baker's percent version of your recipe for those who may want to make more or less dough. As far as the dryness of the dough that I made, it would be simple enough to just spray the dough scraps with water from a spray bottle. It should only take about 5-10 sprays for the weight of dough I made. I chose not to do this for my maiden effort with your recipe since I was trying to be true to your recipe. However, if the dough is too dry in a future effort, I will just spray it with a bit of water.

I like your idea of par-baking the crusts and then dressing and freezing. In cases like this, Tom Lehmann often recommends brushing the par-baked crust with oil to form a barrier so that the moisture in the toppings doesn't unduly penetrate the crust as the pizza cools down in the freezer and also during final baking.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 02:25:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline corduroy9

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #144 on: April 15, 2008, 09:22:30 AM »
I wanted to add a couple tips that have occurred to me, when making Devon's Thin recipe from the front recipe page of this web site.

I use King Arthur All Purpose and Fleischman's IDY.

I usually use a bit more water, as my dough just doesn't form a ball.  After all the called for ingredients are added, I add a little bit of water at a time while the mixer is going, probably another 1/8 cup total, until all the loose dough gets absorbed.

The recipe produces enough dough to make 2 large pies.  I cook them in large rectangular cookie sheets. 

After the inital 8 hour rise, I punch the dough down and cut it in half, put each ball into a zip-lock bag in the fridge.  I've held it up to 8 days and it is still good.  I try to remember to remove the dough from the fridge at least an hour before rolling, or else it's hard to roll.

I roll the dough by hand, using a rolling pin, until it is just larger than the pans I use.  I have to sprinkle flour on the dough, spread the flour around, roll the dough, flip it, and repeat many times.

The excess dough I either cut off or fold onto itself, to make a thicker outside crust.

I spray the sheets with a non stick cooking spray, instead of using oil.

I always preheat a stone in the oven for 30+ mins at 500 degrees.  (When I have not, the crust isn't always crisp, sometimes soggy).

I par bake the crust for 6 mins, then top it and cook until the cheese starts to brown. 

I go light on the sauce, just enough to cover.  For cheese, I try all kinds of different combos.  Mozzarella, Italian blends, recently a little mild cheddar over the mozz, which adds a nice new flavor to it.

It comes out pretty nice.  Thanks so much for this site, what a great resource for pizza lovers.



Offline Randy

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #145 on: April 15, 2008, 09:32:10 AM »
The recipe you used was so much different from DKM's you should really start another thread.  Give it name if you like and with pictures people will give your recipe a try.  It is always interesting to see other pizza ideas.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #146 on: August 14, 2008, 05:57:48 PM »
One of our new members, snowdog (Glenn), recently asked at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6938.msg59601.html#msg59601 whether a bread machine was a suitable appliance to use to make dough for a thin and crispy/cracker-style crust. That caught me off guard because while I had made DKM's and my versions of DKM cracker-style dough recipe using a food processor, a stand mixer, and even by hand, I had never given any thought about the possibility of using a bread machine. Forced by snowdog's question to think about it, I had initial serious reservations about whether a bread machine would do a good enough job making a workable low-hydration cracker-style dough, but the fact that dough in a bread machine can get to over 90 degrees F during the kneading steps held appeal to me because I had found that a warm dough rolls out much easier than a room temperature (or cooler) dough.

With the above in mind, I used my standard version of DKM's thin and crispy/cracker-style dough recipe (at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138) with the basic dough setting of my Zojirushi bread machine. Rather than modifying the sequence of operation of the Zo, or modifying the recipe to be better adapted to the Zo, I let the Zo run through its normal sequence of preheating, kneading, first rise, stir down, and second rise. I added the ingredients to the bread pan in the sequence recommended by the manufacturer of the Zo.

I concluded that the Zo was not effective at making a low-hydration dough. As an example of its deficiency in making such a dough, a part of the dough ingredients stuck to the sides of the bread pan during the kneading step and were not incorporated into the kneaded dough. This necessitated that I intervene in the process and scrape the dough ingredients back into the path of the two kneading blades. The kneading of the dough ingredients was also uneven with some portions underkneaded and others in the form of clumps that appeared to have a fairly well-developed gluten structure, which is something that I tried to avoid in most of my previous kneading methods. The kneading time was also quite a bit longer than the earlier methods I used, even the hand kneaded version and, certainly, the food processor method which, in my prior efforts, was less than a minute.

I thought that the fact that the dough ingredients reached over 90 degrees F when I removed it from the bread pan (after the second rise) and formed it into a ball to roll out would make it easier to roll out using a standard rolling pin and make it unnecessary to use my proofing box or ThermoKool unit to warm up the dough sufficiently to roll out easily. I tried both my heavy marble rolling pin and my French tapered wood rolling pin and neither was effective in rolling out the dough. The dough was quite dry (because of the long heating of the dough ingredients during the rise steps) and had a developed gluten structure and density that rendered rolling out the dough impractical. Too much labor would be needed to roll it out. I gave up after about ten minutes of trying and ended up throwing the dough away.

It occurred to me after my experiment that it might be possible to increase the hydration of the dough formulation I used to compensate for the loss of moisture in the dough during the rise steps. However, even if that worked and I could correctly establish the required increase in the initial hydration, it would take about an hour or more to complete the task. That would not be practical given that it takes far less time with all of the prior machines I had used, even the hand kneading method. I also thought that it might be possible to remove the dough before the first rise step, but that would itself consume over 25 minutes, and be excessive. Also, the dough would be unheated (beyond the effects of the preheating step) and not as convenient to roll out as it would if it were warm. I would have to use my proofing box or ThermoKool unit, without any apparent advantage over the prior methods in this regard.

The bottom line is that as good as a bread machine may be in making many types of dough, it does not appear to be suitable or practical for making a low hydration low, especially one at 36% hydration. I still believe that a food processor is the best machine to make a low-hydration dough. Then, in my view, it would be a toss-up between a stand mixer and making the dough by hand.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2008, 08:05:26 PM »
Last year, member fazzari (John) posted a dough formulation for a cracker-style pizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5642.msg47873.html#msg47873. What caught my attention at the time is that John's dough formulation bore several similarities to the DKM dough formulation, but with no sugar. I recently decided to make a pizza based on John's dough formulation. In my case, I used a food processor rather than a stand mixer as used by John. For good order sake, I decided to post the results I achieved at the same thread where John first posted his dough formulation. My results are described and shown at Replies 13 and 14, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5642.msg61130.html#msg61130.

The photo below is representative of the results I achieved. Sort of like a trailer or a coming attraction.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #148 on: January 06, 2009, 12:07:40 PM »
Earlier in this thread, at Reply 106 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50766/topicseen.html#msg50766, I described efforts I undertook to make a Lehmann cracker-style pizza in which I used heat to warm up the dough to make it easier to roll out the dough. The formulation for the Lehmann cracker style dough is given on our forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_crackerstyle.php. The same formulation also appears at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/. When I made the dough, I used a thickness factor of 0.09. I guessed at that value since the Lehmann instructions do not specify a thickness factor or a dough ball weight in relation to a particular pizza size from which to calculate the thickness factor.

Recently, at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=42153#42153, a poster asked for typical dough ball weights to make specific size pizzas. In reply, Tom Lehmann came up with a thickness value of 0.12389. To preserve that post, I have copied and pasted it as follows:

For the cracker crust use a 14-ounce scaling weight for the 12-inch dough skins. This will give you with a minimum of scrap dough after the dough skin has been trimmed. Remember your Pi X r squared to calculate the other sizes. For example: 3.14 X 6 squared is 3.14 X 36 = 113 square inches in a 12-inch circle/pizza skin. So 14 divided by 113 = 0.12389-ounces per square inch of surface area. Now, al lyou have to do is to multiply the surface area of any size pizza by 0.12389 to get the dough ball weight (in ounces) for that size pizza. Remember you will need to sheet the dough to a thickness of roughly 1/16 of an inch, no to exceed 1/8-inch in thickness. After sheeting the dough, I like to dock it and place it on a disk or pizza circle and trim it to size using a pizza wheel, then transfer it to a baking disk or prep peel for dressing.
The baking time will be on the long side, but the character of the crust is well worth the extra wait.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


The thickness factor value suggested by Tom is considerably greater than what I calculated for DKM's recipe and that I myself used for my versions of DKM's recipe, even if adjusted to compensate for some scrap dough remaining after a skin is cut out of a larger sheet of dough. However, I thought that it might be helpful for people to know what Tom recommends for his own cracker-style dough recipe.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 08:12:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #149 on: January 06, 2009, 01:06:30 PM »
WOW,
Thanks thats double the .06 I used and mentioned elswhere on the forum
John
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