Author Topic: New Haven Style  (Read 6049 times)

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Jamie

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New Haven Style
« on: December 30, 2007, 04:39:16 PM »
I was just wondering why there is no New Haven style forum. Seems to me that New Haven is more prolific per capita and almost per restaurant then NY. After all, Calvin Trillin doesn't mention NYC as being pizza's holy city, that honor was reserved for New Haven.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2007, 05:12:27 PM »
Jim,

The New Haven style tends to be grouped in with the NY "elite" styles, such as Lombardi's, Totonno's, John's, Grimaldi's, Patsy's, etc. These are under the NY style in the index.

Peter

Jamie

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2007, 05:16:42 PM »
Peter, I saw that. I just think New Haven should be represented more; maybe added in the description of the forum itself. Personally I believe it's a unique style unto itself using ingredients not found anywhere else in the world.

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2007, 06:29:58 PM »
Jim,

It would be Steve's call as Administrator of the forum to make changes to the indexing but, in general, we have tried not to break down the index into too many categories. There are many other regional pizza styles with unique characteristics, like Old Forge, Detroit, St. Louis, New Jersey, Greek and several others, and they do not appear in the index. They are more likely to be found under Other Styles or elsewhere.

Peter

Offline Scirocco

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 10:54:31 PM »
I disagree with what Peter said. Sorry.  New Haven is probably one of the largest Neapolitan migration areas in America.  The Pizza there is very native.  A friend of mine, her grandfather is also one of the first persons to sell grated mozzarella to sell to pizza houses thirty years ago.  There are much more restaurants in New Haven. I don't think that New York Pizza has anything to do with New Haven pizza.  Many New Haven Italians also make their own wine, sausage, prosciutto, and have wood burning ovens now to make their own party pizza.  Some feel that the American Pizza that Neapolitans created came from Neapolitans in America.

Michele

Jamie

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2008, 02:46:07 PM »
There's no doubt that New Haven deserves it's own forum, I would ask Steve to set up a section for NH style if he'd be so kind to do so. It's annoying when you have people making comments about how the pies in NH are inferior to NY because people consider the styles to be the same.
After all Calvin Trillin said New Haven was the holy city of pizza, not New York.

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 03:18:10 PM »
I didn't know who Calvin Trillin is, so I googled him and found this wikipedia article ... now, I realize that wikipedia is not necessarily always accurate, however, it DOES say that he is known for his HUMOROUS writings about food and eating...  so, maybe his tongue was firmly planted in cheek when he made his comment about New Haven...

And, based on Jamie's theory, I submit that Old Forge should have a category of its own, based on the fact that they have put up signs declaring their town to be THE PIZZA CAPITAL OF THE WORLD!!  That holds just as much weight, in my book, as Calvin Trillin, the humorist's, comment. 

I've never had NY pizza, or New Haven pizza... but from what I have learned, the biggest difference is that in New Haven, they burn the crap out of it and tell you that's the way it's supposed to be, so Mangia e Statti Zitto!  (Shut Up and Eat!)  >:D

BTW, my tongue is firmly planted in cheek as well, concerning the Old Forge comment (but not the New Haven comment) just so there's no confusion.   ;)   :-D

~sd
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Jamie

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 05:00:34 PM »
I didn't know who Calvin Trillin is, so I googled him and found this wikipedia article ... now, I realize that wikipedia is not necessarily always accurate, however, it DOES say that he is known for his HUMOROUS writings about food and eating...  so, maybe his tongue was firmly planted in cheek when he made his comment about New Haven...

And, based on Jamie's theory, I submit that Old Forge should have a category of its own, based on the fact that they have put up signs declaring their town to be THE PIZZA CAPITAL OF THE WORLD!!  That holds just as much weight, in my book, as Calvin Trillin, the humorist's, comment. 

I've never had NY pizza, or New Haven pizza... but from what I have learned, the biggest difference is that in New Haven, they burn the crap out of it and tell you that's the way it's supposed to be, so Mangia e Statti Zitto!  (Shut Up and Eat!)  >:D

BTW, my tongue is firmly planted in cheek as well, concerning the Old Forge comment (but not the New Haven comment) just so there's no confusion.   ;)   :-D

~sd


This is the typical kind of response that makes my argument FOR a New Haven style pizza forum relevant.

btw SD, you could beef up your knowledge of food by actually reading some Calvin Trillin, who probably knows more about American food then most people on earth. :)

Jamie

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 05:08:07 PM »
A discussion among the moderators is taking place to determine whether a separate New Haven board would be of benefit to the member community. Your interest and patience is appreciated.

Bill/SFNM


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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 07:22:18 PM »
After reading sourdough girl's and Jamie's posts today on the matter of a separate board for the New Haven style of pizza, I did a search of the forum to identify standalone threads that are devoted to making New Haven style pizzas. I could find only one such thread. I found many posts referring to the city of New Haven and references to Pepe's and Sally's and Modern Pizza and other aspects of the New Haven style embedded in other threads throughout the forum, but only one specifically directed to the "making" of New Haven style pizzas. The bulk of the New Haven posts are found, not surprisingly, in the Pizzeria & Restaurant Review board. The purpose of the General Pizza Making and individual style sections (New York style, Chicago style, etc.) is to cover "making" pizzas, not merely discussing them in a more general way or discussing sub-topics that form part of the styles (like sauces, cheeses, toppings, etc.). Other boards are used for those collateral purposes. Consequently, it is hard to justify creating a separate pizza style board with only one thread in it. The last new board that was created, for Specialty-Grain pizzas, now has 29 standalone threads, up from about a couple dozen when the decision was made to add that board.

If members want to start new threads to post recipes and discuss their experiences in making New Haven style pizzas, or reverse engineering the pizzas of New Haven pizzerias, and a large enough body of threads develops as a result, that would be the time to consider adding a new board. The same would apply to sourdough girl's beloved Old Forge style and to the St. Louis style, Detroit style, Greek style, and so forth.

Peter

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 10:35:34 PM »
Pete-zza, thank you for the research and the time you took to do it, as well as the time taken by the other moderators.

I'm surprised that people want to TALK about New Haven pizza, about whether or not it is better than (or as good as) NY pizza, but nobody (comparatively, of course) wants to replicate it at home.  Not being sarcastic, just wondering about the apparent dichotomy.  Guess I assumed that a lot of people on these boards wanted to recreate Sally's and Pepe's at home, but it appears not to be the case. 

As for Calvin Trillin, thanks for the suggested reading... and, thanks to Amazon.com's Online Reader (which, if you click "surprise me" will continue for quite a while to give you groups of about 5-6 pages to read) I have spent quite a while this afternoon browsing his "The Tummy Trilogy".  Yes, his style is definitely tongue-in-cheek.  Haven't found the part yet about New Haven being deemed "the holy city of pizza" vs New York, but I did find, on page 15 of "American Fried" where he prints a conversation he had with an unnamed "freelance food and travel writer".  In this interview he says "I'm surprised at the implication that a fancy freelance food and travel writer like you was not allowed into Arthur Bryant's Barbecue, which is only the single best restaurant in the world."  (emphasis mine)  Hmmm.... I must be really out of the foodie loop because I have never heard of Arthur Bryant's Barbecue in Kansas City, MO.... and Calvin Trillin says it's the best restaurant in the WORLD!  And he knows more about American food than most people on earth.  <oops, that was bordering on sarcasm, sorry...>  I have read enough to know that I will continue "beefing up my knowledge of food" by continuing to read my usual, such as the publications of The Culinary Institute of America and America's Test Kitchen for starters.

So, if Calvin Trillin is given often to these bouts of hyperbole, (as in the bold example cited above) I can see why you believe him if he says that YOUR hometown is "the holy city of pizza."  He also said, in another excerpt, that we all want to believe that everything in our hometown is the BEST.   Is he the one who stated that calzones were invented in New Haven??  No, wait... I remember... it was the restaurant owner, wasn't it?

Jamie, remember first and foremost, that Mr Trillin is a food HUMORIST... which means... don't take him so seriously!  There are other humorists, such as Mark Twain, who offer nuggets of wisdom wrapped in humor.  I would take them more seriously than Calvin Trillin.

~sd

EDIT:  I guess I made an assumption I should not have made.  I *ass*umed that, from the way Jamie was throwing his name around, Calvin Trillin was a food CRITIC I had never heard of.... and was quite surprised to find that he is a HUMORIST.  BIG difference.  If you know what I mean, and I think you do!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 01:19:11 AM by sourdough girl »
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Offline David

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2008, 11:20:07 PM »
It seems that today is a big day for polling.I think we should vote on it? I vote NO.
Too many derivatives.There's already millions of confused pizza eaters out there,do we really need to add to this?Isn't New Haven a suburb of New York / New Jersey anyway?Would you trust anything written by anyone called Calvin Trillin?
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Jamie

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2008, 05:40:13 AM »
Sourdough girl: you go an awful long way to try to discredit me with your essay style diatribes without any actual facts, and you still come out sounding civil! Well done. You are good at that. You are not however very knowledgeable about food.
I am not going to stick around this board any longer with dilettantes like SD bashing everything I say.
Pete thanks for the time to look into this.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 05:51:04 AM by Jamie »

Offline yaddayaddayadda

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2008, 08:21:05 AM »
Is it now fair to say that New Haven style is characterized by a thin skin? ;)

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2008, 10:19:41 AM »
I think so!  That'll be his loss,  too bad he wasn't into deep dish :P

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 06:00:23 PM »
Whoa!  You don't know me well enough to call me a dilettante.  You also have NO idea how much I know about food.  And a diatribe, by its very nature, is not civil.  But, thank you for your compliment on my writing skills.  Perhaps I should become a food humorist.  After 20 years in an upscale grocery/foodservice/Deli management career, I'm ready for a change of pace! 

I have read all of your 28 posts and what I don't understand is, if you have lived in Italy, traveled in Europe and were raised in NYC, why are you so rabidly loyal to.... New Haven, CT of all places?  If I understood this unusual loyalty, there would be a better chance that we could "all just get along". 

1. Le Vesuvio - Cannes, Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France. The standard for which I judge all my other pizza experiences.
2. Pepe's - New Haven, Connecticut. This is the closest I have come to Le Vesuvio.

Perhaps French pizza has something to do with it.  You might have been better served to drive SOUTH from Tuscany for your pizza.

~sd

edit: corrected conjunction mistype.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 08:04:35 PM by sourdough girl »
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Offline JerryMac

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2008, 10:05:14 PM »
SD,

You Go Girl  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mangia Bene  :chef:

Jerry

Offline Grog

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2008, 02:10:37 PM »
Just out of curiosity -- are there objective attributes that distinguish New Haven pies from NY pies?

Offline scott r

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Re: New Haven Style
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2008, 07:23:54 PM »
I have had my fair share of New Haven and Ny Elite pizzas, many times on the same day since I commute from Boston to NY on a regular basis. I have read that New Haven is thicker, but I don't really agree.  I only found two differences between them.

1) New Haven pizzas are cooked longer so they are tougher with more char. 
2) New Haven pies use normal Poly-0 style mozzarella unlike the fresh mozzarella that is a characteristic of the NY elite pizzerias such as John's, Patsy's, Grimalde's, and Totonnos. 

There is another third difference, but I think it is more a byproduct of the first two I listed.  The long bake and the cheaper cheese at the New Haven pizzerias leaves you with a more oily pie.

There are many more similarities than differences such as:

A wet dough
lots of Romano added along with the mozzarella
Coal ovens
Attention to detail in forming and baking the pizzas that you don't see at normal run of the mill pizzerias
Higher quality toppings than you see at normal run of the mill pizzerias
Bromated flour (although I believe Johns has switched to non bromated)
A simple uncooked sauce of high quality tomatoes





 

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