Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 118655 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #325 on: March 11, 2013, 09:45:02 PM »
Norma, I know you were asking Pete, but I had some over the weekend and can share my thoughts.  The crust is very oily and very flaky.  I could see visble flaky layers in the dough.  Some of these layers "bent up" along the rim of the crust, almost as if the layers were all formed parallel to each other and then the edges were bent up to form the rim. Also, not only were the layers visible, but I could even peel them apart -- so I know I'm not just making this up.

The dough reminds me kind of like phyllo actually.

I'm not sure how the layers get in there.  I know Pete mentioned earlier in the thread that the dough wasn't laminated.  I'm not sure how else they could get the dough like that though.  Maybe the hot pressing has something to do with it?

CDNpielover,

HRI uses hot dough presses both in its stores and in its frozen pizza operations. At HRI's frozen pizza facilities, the rims of the pizzas are automatically formed as pressure (600-800 pounds) is applied to the dough ball for about 10 seconds. The rims are rounded, not pleated as is done by hand in the HRI pizzerias. Heat is also applied to the pressed skins and that helps set the crust somewhat but not much more than that. The crusts are also docked to minimize bubbling in the crust. I have read that in its pizzerias, HRI workers put the pressed crusts in a rack for about 15 minutes to "proof". If so, this suggests that there is still fermentation occurring in the crust. I don't think that pressing is the reason for the layering effect. Pizza operators routinely use presses, with or without heat, to make pizzas and the crusts are not flaky. A well known user of presses is California Pizza Kitchen (see video below). Costco also uses presses, and its pizza crusts are not flaky. 



I think that the layering effect is primarily due to the way that the dough is made, and, more specifically, the way that the ingredients are sequenced when making the dough. The bowls of the mixers used by HRI to make its frozen pizzas are "400- 500-lb bowls", so their mixers must be serious equipment. To replicate the processes that HRI uses in a home environment, I think I would use techniques such as are used to make pie dough but using oil rather than solid fats. I have been playing around with some ways of doing this but it is too early to say what, if anything, might do the job in a home setting. There may also be ancillary methods that have to be used even if a workable dough making method is achieved. An example might be letting the docked formed skin to proof for a while before dressing and baking. Bake temperatures and times may be other factors.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:41:41 PM by Steve »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #326 on: March 11, 2013, 09:56:35 PM »
Did you see lamination's in either of your 2 dissectees ?

Sat. night I had one of those little 5 or 6in jobbies, plain cheese because I needed a refresher on the crust taste...anyway, I'm just not seeing any of this "lamination" that's been being mentioned.

Bob,

Yes, I did. But it wasn't the type of layering that you might get, say, in a cracker-style crust. It is more like a pie crust in my opinion, with a fairly dense crumb but with a flakiness when you try to peel it apart. Except for the rim of an HRI crust, which can be quite hard, the crust inside of the rim can be more tender.

Lamination suggests that there are distinct layers that are superimposed on each other, either by physical placement of sheets on top of each other or through the use of folding methods. A hot press does none of that.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #327 on: March 11, 2013, 10:09:48 PM »
Peter,

I use a pie dough recipe of my mom's that uses lots of regular vegetable oil.  I think it calls for the oil not to be stirred into the water and think there is also cold water used.  I have to look up that recipe and see what happens when I make another attempt on an HRI pizza.  The crust on that pie dough does get very flaky even if it is rolled out.  It needs to be rolled between wax paper though.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #328 on: March 11, 2013, 10:10:21 PM »
with a fairly dense crumb but with a flakiness when you try to peel it apart.
Now that I did see when I picked at it with the tip of a knife.... ;)

and even on the 'lil mini one it seemed more pronounced right where the bottom meets the formed rim.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 10:13:30 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #329 on: March 11, 2013, 10:49:28 PM »
I use a pie dough recipe of my mom's that uses lots of regular vegetable oil.  I think it calls for the oil not to be stirred into the water and think there is also cold water used.  I have to look up that recipe and see what happens when I make another attempt on an HRI pizza.  The crust on that pie dough does get very flaky even if it is rolled out.  It needs to be rolled between wax paper though.

Norma,

Making oil-based pie crusts has long been the province of people with health and nutrition concerns. Remembering this, I found one of my old health food cookbooks that had a recipe for an oil-based crust. The recipe calls for sifting all of the dry ingredients and adding a mixture of the oil and water into the dry ingredients, using a fork to combine everything.

In HRI's frozen food facilities, the flour goes directly into its mixer bowls, without sifting beyond the sifting that is done at the miller's facilities. I would think that it would be overly energy intensive and costly for HRI to cool down the water for its dough when they are making over a million pizzas a month. According to one of the most recent articles on the HRI frozen pizza operation, HRI kneads the dough for nine minutes. That is not a lot for the dough batch sizes they are making. So, like a pie dough you don't want to over mix the dough.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #330 on: March 12, 2013, 07:05:24 AM »
Norma,

Making oil-based pie crusts has long been the province of people with health and nutrition concerns. Remembering this, I found one of my old health food cookbooks that had a recipe for an oil-based crust. The recipe calls for sifting all of the dry ingredients and adding a mixture of the oil and water into the dry ingredients, using a fork to combine everything.

In HRI's frozen food facilities, the flour goes directly into its mixer bowls, without sifting beyond the sifting that is done at the miller's facilities. I would think that it would be overly energy intensive and costly for HRI to cool down the water for its dough when they are making over a million pizzas a month. According to one of the most recent articles on the HRI frozen pizza operation, HRI kneads the dough for nine minutes. That is not a lot for the dough batch sizes they are making. So, like a pie dough you don't want to over mix the dough.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít know making oil-based pie crust has long been the province of people with health and nutrition concerns.  I think HRIís method at their frozen food facilities could be something like the recipe you looked up in your old health cookbooks.  I also had read that recent article that HRI kneads the dough for nine minutes.  I agree that isnít a lot of time to mix for those large batches.  Of course, I really donít think we are trying to make a HRI crust as flaky as a regular pie crust, but since I never tasted a real HRI pizza crust I really donít know.

I posted my momís pie crust recipe at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19002.msg185689.html#msg185689 and my momís recipe was modified a little from a Betty Crocker recipe and might be like ones that you have looked at recently.  That seems to be a lot of vegetable oil for the amount of flour to me.  Chau also said he liked that pie crust recipe modified in the post before mine.  I never really used cold water out of the fridge, but just cold tap water.  That method calls for sifting flour too, but donít think there really needs to be any sifting of flours the way flours are milled today.  The salt, water and flour are added to the flour mixture. 

In Looís opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html and from the Nutrition Facts of an HRI pizza the yeast is listed above the salt and you recently I think posted that more than 2% IDY could be used.  I just wonder then how the dough could be cold fermented for 2-3 days in the HRI pizzerias, without multiple punch downs, unless they keep the dough really cold, or the oil helps to retard the dough.

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #331 on: March 12, 2013, 09:59:59 AM »
Norma,

I posted my momís pie crust recipe at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19002.msg185689.html#msg185689 and my momís recipe was modified a little from a Betty Crocker recipe and might be like ones that you have looked at recently.  That seems to be a lot of vegetable oil for the amount of flour to me.

Your mother's pie crust recipe that you referenced essentially looks like this from a baker's percent standpoint, although the actual baker's percents will depend on how the flour is measured out volumetrically:

All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (28.98%):
Salt (1.1%):
Crisco Oil (42.72%):
Total (172.8%):
255.13 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
73.94 g  |  2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs
2.81 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
108.99 g | 3.84 oz | 0.24 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
440.87 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = N/A

If one were to play around with the above hydration and oil amounts, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, you would essentially have an HRI type of dough. Unfortunately, there is no way of calculating the hydration of the HRI dough used to make their frozen pizzas. In part, I believe that that is because there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts. If I am correct on this, it could be that that error was used to do other calculations that are now reflected in the Nutrition Facts.


In Looís opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html and from the Nutrition Facts of an HRI pizza the yeast is listed above the salt and you recently I think posted that more than 2% IDY could be used.  I just wonder then how the dough could be cold fermented for 2-3 days in the HRI pizzerias, without multiple punch downs, unless they keep the dough really cold, or the oil helps to retard the dough.

As you know, until recently, I assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it uses for its frozen pizzas. Now, I am not so sure. For example, if you look at the article about the HRI frozen pizza oprations at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1, you will see the following description of how HRI made its dough at that time (around 1996):

After mixing, the pizza dough is allowed to ferment in tubs containing 40-lb batches. The company likes the unique flavor that natural fermentation produces. Tubs are cleaned and sanitized between batches.

   ďOur dough is given the time to develop flavor naturally,Ē Mr. Perrino said. ďNo additives are used to speed up the process. We follow Ďold world' methods that rely on time and natural fermentation.Ē

   After the proper amount of floor time, the dough is dumped into a Benier bread system that divides and rounds individual dough pieces and puts them through a period of intermediate proofing. From the proofer, the dough balls travel along an overhead delivery conveyor into the pressing room. A chute sends the balls to a shallow bin, and an operator manually places the balls on the conveyor leading to the presses. Company engineers are working on an automatic placement system to be installed later.

   Dough balls travel through one of two hot crust presses. When Home Run Inn first automated its pizza crust process in 1990, it switched from manual stretching to hot press processing and achieved a threefold increase in throughput. The dough is formed in the cavity of the press and enough heat is applied to ďsetĒ the shape. The company anticipates installing a third press within a few months.

   Formed crusts then leave the presses and enter a impingement-style forced-air oven. A short bake stabilizes the crust, which is still warm as it continues into the topping room. Here a series of depositors, custom-configured into three lanes, apply the proper proportions of sauce, cheese, sausage and other condiments. Operators stand alongside the topping lanes to visually inspect each pizza for proper coverage.

   Conveyors carry the pizzas into the oven room where a U.S.D.A.-compliant, all-stainless-steel Stein JSO III Jet Stream oven fully cooks each pizza.

   Pizzas emerge from the oven hot, at temperatures around 165įF (74įC).


As I read the above quoted material, I conclude that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.

Now, if we fast forward to the latest article we know of that describes what appears to be the current HRI frozen pizza operations, at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you will see a discussion at pages 24 and 26 (of the article) that essentially describes the dough management as follows: 1) Make the dough as described at page 26, 2) put the dough into to the dough chunker to form 40-lb blocks, 3) divide the dough into pieces and form them into round balls, 4) manually check the weights of the dough balls, 5) rack the dough balls, and 6) form the dough balls into skins using the dough presses.

Where is the fermentation step(s)? We really don't know. Maybe it is between steps 5 and 6 described above. And I believe docking takes place after step 6.

Now, to answer your specific question about how HRI manages its dough in its pizzerias with the high amounts of yeast as we have been discussing, it is possible that HRI uses less yeast for the dough for its pizzerias than it uses to make its frozen dough. I'm not sure where I read it, but I believe that the dough for the HRI pizzerias is made at a facility that is separate from the frozen pizza facilities (although the frozen pizza facilities make the sauce and processes the cheese and sausage for the entire HRI operations, including the pizzerias). However, even if I am wrong about the amount of yeast used for the dough for the HRI pizzerias, my cold fermentation tests show that even with 2.5% IDY, the dough during cold fermentation does not explode out of its storage container. The dough will rise fairly quickly as it cools down in the refrigerator, and may even double or triple in volume (after about 8 hours in my refrigerator), after about a day of cold fermentation everything comes to a halt, and the dough no longer rises and just sits there. I believe that the high amount of oil is at least partly responsible for the orderly behavior of the dough. The dough is firm to the touch, not soft and billowy that it tempts you to want to punch it down. You can read more about how the dough is handled in HRI's pizzerias in the article excerpted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 05:12:11 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #332 on: March 12, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
I'm not sure where I read it, but I believe that the dough for the HRI pizzerias is made at a facility that is separate from the frozen pizza facilities (although the frozen pizza facilities make the sauce and processes the cheese and sausage for the entire HRI operations, including the pizzerias).

Norma,

I'm not sure if this is where I first read that the HRI pizzeria and frozen pizza operations are kept separate, but this March 2012 article at 
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/inc-well/Home-Run-Inns-Joe-Perrino-on-How-to-Break-into-the-Frozen-Foods-Market-140004953.html says:

My plant basically produces all of our raw ingredients for our restaurants out of the same location and then half of the plant is support for restaurants and the other half is for frozen pizza production.

I also found an older article through a library search that I couldn't cite, but when HRI opened up one of its frozen production facilities, the article said:

The restaurant commissary will be relocated to the new production facility. All of the raw products are prepared at the commissary and trucked to the three restaurants for assembly.

I would think that HRI would want to have a separation of its two businesses so that the pizzeria side is not subjected to the same kind of governmental and regulatory scrutiny as the frozen pizza side.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 02:54:47 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #333 on: March 12, 2013, 09:20:56 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for both of your replies.  When I have more time tomorrow I will read both of them more in depth so I understand what all you posted.

Norma


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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #334 on: March 12, 2013, 10:52:12 PM »
I'm just not seeing any of this "lamination" that's been being mentioned.

This is from an Ultrathin HRI, and you can clearly see separate layers.  If your frozen HRI pizzas don't cook up this way, you're doing it wrong or just haven't noticed.  ;D



« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:54:17 PM by Garvey »

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #335 on: March 12, 2013, 10:58:39 PM »
Is it possible there is some kind of folding involved somewhere, ŗ la puff pastry or the way ATK did their DD?

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #336 on: March 12, 2013, 11:02:51 PM »
This is from an Ultrathin HRI, and you can clearly see separate layers.  If your frozen HRI pizzas don't cook up this way, you're doing it wrong or just haven't noticed.  ;D
Thanks Garvey,
I believe that does remind me of what I have seen from the "ultra thin" HRI frozen pizza.
Just not seeing that at all on their regular crust.  Maybe they selling 'ol Bob some damaged goods.... >:(

Are you seeing that same pronounced "layers" on their regular style, such as the 2 pies that Peter just recently baked and reported only a pie crust like "flakiness"?

Bob
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #337 on: March 12, 2013, 11:04:00 PM »
That flakiness definately happens in their regular crust as well.  If you're not seeing it then I don't know why, it was ultra apparent in the frozen pizzas Ive made.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:05:52 PM by CDNpielover »

Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #338 on: March 12, 2013, 11:09:45 PM »
What CDNpielover said.  Same dough in the regular--just more of it.  And it absolutely flakes up like that.

Believe me, a frozen HRI is actually a little tricky to cook up properly.  But when you give it a long enough bake, you will be rewarded for your patience.  Anything less than correct, and it's gummy and not so great and certainly not flaky .

Cheers,
Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #339 on: March 12, 2013, 11:19:45 PM »
BTW, Bob, I saw earlier that you were lamenting a lack of sauce (or was that someone else?).  I found that odd, because HRI is among the sauciest pies available in the frozen aisle.  Ultrathin is even saucier, relative to the crust thickness, etc.  That being said, I do sometimes get a drier one or a few dry ones that were made on the same date.  But the really saucy ones are more the norm... in my experience, anyway.  (And we pretty much have had HRI weekly for the past eight years or so, since distribution began down South.  If I don't make pizza, we never order out: we have HRI.)

Cheers,
Garvey

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #340 on: March 12, 2013, 11:26:47 PM »
Ok great....that mini(6in) one I did Sat. was actually almost overdone(my fault)and it did not have a gum layer, just as my homemade one on Fri. did not have gum. I just went dumpster diving and found that Sats. mini was dated for Sept.'12.

I'm buying some fresh full size ones tomorrow(sending some off in dry ice for Norma too) and hopefully will get to see what the heck is going on here...going to get some Ultra's also.

Bob
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #341 on: March 12, 2013, 11:30:29 PM »
BTW, Bob, I saw earlier that you were lamenting a lack of sauce (or was that someone else?).  I found that odd, because HRI is among the sauciest pies available in the frozen aisle.  Ultrathin is even saucier, relative to the crust thickness, etc.  That being said, I do sometimes get a drier one or a few dry ones that were made on the same date.  But the really saucy ones are more the norm... in my experience, anyway.  (And we pretty much have had HRI weekly for the past eight years or so, since distribution began down South.  If I don't make pizza, we never order out: we have HRI.)

Cheers,
Garvey
No, I think Peter's nutri. facts are indicating a lesser sauce than I was recommending to Norma....I posted that I'm a sauce freak and the "official for cloning" MMV...
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #342 on: March 12, 2013, 11:32:17 PM »
FWIW, I've had great luck cooking at a lower temp for longer (e.g., 410o for 20-25 mins instead of 450o for 12-17 ... or whatever the box says).  Of course, "know thine oven" and all that jazz.. :).

Oh--that's right.  I share the "sauce freak" disease right with ya, man.  :chef:

Cheers,
Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #343 on: March 12, 2013, 11:39:29 PM »
FWIW, I've had great luck cooking at a lower temp for longer (e.g., 410o for 20-25 mins instead of 450o for 12-17 ... or whatever the box says).  Of course, "know thine oven" and all that jazz.. :).

Oh--that's right.  I share the "sauce freak" disease right with ya, man.  :chef:

Cheers,
Garvey
Yeah...I did that mini @ 425 and thawed as per a rec. I saw somewhere....plain chees and the top tried to get away from me but like I said... no gum...jus no damn layers either though.  :(

On a happier note... I found out the place I'm buying from tomorrow also has Geno"s East frozen DD. Gonna give that a whirl too what the hey. Have you had that Geno's frozen yet Garvey?
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #344 on: March 13, 2013, 12:07:19 AM »
I don't think I've had that one.  Uno, perhaps...

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #345 on: March 13, 2013, 09:00:34 AM »
Norma,
 
Your mother's pie crust recipe that you referenced essentially looks like this from a baker's percent standpoint, although the actual baker's percents will depend on how the flour is measured out volumetrically:

All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (28.98%):
Salt (1.1%):
Crisco Oil (42.72%):
Total (172.8%):
255.13 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
73.94 g  |  2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs
2.81 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
108.99 g | 3.84 oz | 0.24 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
440.87 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = N/A

If one were to play around with the above hydration and oil amounts, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, you would essentially have an HRI type of dough. Unfortunately, there is no way of calculating the hydration of the HRI dough used to make their frozen pizzas. In part, I believe that that is because there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts. If I am correct on this, it could be that that error was used to do other calculations that are now reflected in the Nutrition Facts.

As you know, until recently, I assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it uses for its frozen pizzas. Now, I am not so sure. For example, if you look at the article about the HRI frozen pizza oprations at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1, you will see the following description of how HRI made its dough at that time (around 1996):

After mixing, the pizza dough is allowed to ferment in tubs containing 40-lb batches. The company likes the unique flavor that natural fermentation produces. Tubs are cleaned and sanitized between batches.

   ďOur dough is given the time to develop flavor naturally,Ē Mr. Perrino said. ďNo additives are used to speed up the process. We follow Ďold world' methods that rely on time and natural fermentation.Ē

   After the proper amount of floor time, the dough is dumped into a Benier bread system that divides and rounds individual dough pieces and puts them through a period of intermediate proofing. From the proofer, the dough balls travel along an overhead delivery conveyor into the pressing room. A chute sends the balls to a shallow bin, and an operator manually places the balls on the conveyor leading to the presses. Company engineers are working on an automatic placement system to be installed later.

   Dough balls travel through one of two hot crust presses. When Home Run Inn first automated its pizza crust process in 1990, it switched from manual stretching to hot press processing and achieved a threefold increase in throughput. The dough is formed in the cavity of the press and enough heat is applied to ďsetĒ the shape. The company anticipates installing a third press within a few months.

   Formed crusts then leave the presses and enter a impingement-style forced-air oven. A short bake stabilizes the crust, which is still warm as it continues into the topping room. Here a series of depositors, custom-configured into three lanes, apply the proper proportions of sauce, cheese, sausage and other condiments. Operators stand alongside the topping lanes to visually inspect each pizza for proper coverage.

   Conveyors carry the pizzas into the oven room where a U.S.D.A.-compliant, all-stainless-steel Stein JSO III Jet Stream oven fully cooks each pizza.

   Pizzas emerge from the oven hot, at temperatures around 165įF (74įC).


As I read the above quoted material, I conclude that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.

Now, if we fast forward to the latest article we know of that describes what appears to be the current HRI frozen pizza operations, at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you will see a discussion at pages 24 and 26 (of the article) that essentially describes the dough management as follows: 1) Make the dough as described at page 26, 2) put the dough into to the dough chunker to form 40-lb blocks, 3) divide the dough into pieces and form them into round balls, 4) manually check the weights of the dough balls, 5) rack the dough balls, and 6) form the dough balls into skins using the dough presses.

Where is the fermentation step(s)? We really don't know. Maybe it is between steps 5 and 6 described above. And I believe docking takes place after step 6.

Now, to answer your specific question about how HRI manages its dough in its pizzerias with the high amounts of yeast as we have been discussing, it is possible that HRI uses less yeast for the dough for its pizzerias than it uses to make its frozen dough. I'm not sure where I read it, but I believe that the dough for the HRI pizzerias is made at a facility that is separate from the frozen pizza facilities (although the frozen pizza facilities make the sauce and processes the cheese and sausage for the entire HRI operations, including the pizzerias). However, even if I am wrong about the amount of yeast used for the dough for the HRI pizzerias, my cold fermentation tests show that even with 2.5% IDY, the dough during cold fermentation does not explode out of its storage container. The dough will rise fairly quickly as it cools down in the refrigerator, and may even double or triple in volume (after about 8 hours in my refrigerator), after about a day of cold fermentation everything comes to a halt, and the dough no longer rises and just sits there. I believe that the high amount of oil is at least partly responsible for the orderly behavior of the dough. The dough is firm to the touch, not soft and billowy that it tempts you to want to punch it down. You can read more about how the dough is handled in HRI's pizzerias in the article excerpted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590.

Peter

Norma,

I'm not sure if this is where I first read that the HRI pizzeria and frozen pizza operations are kept separate, but this March 2012 article at 
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/inc-well/Home-Run-Inns-Joe-Perrino-on-How-to-Break-into-the-Frozen-Foods-Market-140004953.html says:

My plant basically produces all of our raw ingredients for our restaurants out of the same location and then half of the plant is support for restaurants and the other half is for frozen pizza production.

I also found an older article through a library search that I couldn't cite, but when HRI opened up one of its frozen production facilities, the article said:

The restaurant commissary will be relocated to the new production facility. All of the raw products are prepared at the commissary and trucked to the three restaurants for assembly.

I would think that HRI would want to have a separation of its two businesses so that the pizzeria side is not subjected to the same kind of governmental and regulatory scrutiny as the frozen pizza side.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for doing the calculations to figure out what my motherís pie crust recipe looks like in bakerís percents.  I find that if one were to play around with hydration and oil amount, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, then that would essentially have an HRI type of pizza dough.  Do you how any idea of percents I should try for my next attempt and also what TF I should try?

I find it interesting that you believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts.  Only you would be able to figure that out.

I know you assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it used for its frozen pizza operations.  I see why you now concluded that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.  I can see why there is a question about the fermentation steps.  I find it interesting that you believe docking takes place after step 6.

Thank you for answering my specific question about using how amounts of yeast in HRI dough for its pizzerias.  I can understand that the high amount of oil could be partly responsible for the orderly behavior of the dough.  I also enjoyed hearing about your recent cold fermentation tests showing that even with 2.5% IDY that the dough during cold fermentation does not explode out of its storage container.  I also find that interesting that after about a day the fermentation everything comes to a halt. 

Thanks also for posting that you would think HRI would want to have a separation of its two businesses so that the pizzeria side in not subjected to the same kind of governmental and regulatory scrutiny as the frozen pizza side.  That makes sense to me.  I think I also read something about that on the web, but I didnít save where I read it. 

I donít know if you saw this article from a blogger how HRI was back in 1960.  http://onekentuckywriter.blogspot.com/2008/01/home-run-innand-louie.html  I think the blogger does a good job of explaining how the workers tossed the HRI pizza dough high in the air and what HRI was like back in 1960. 

When you did your experiments for the HRI frozen pizza dough could you also toss the dough?  I find it hard to imagine basically what is a pie crust dough could be tossed, but I havenít tried any experiments to see if that might be able to be done.

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #346 on: March 13, 2013, 10:24:30 AM »
Garvey,

You raise some good points.

With respect to the HRI Ultra-Thin crust pizzas, I have never read anything about how they are made in HRI's frozen pizza plants. However, while some thin-crust pizzas, like cracker-style crusts, can be laminated (member fazzari of this forum is an expert on this approach), it isn't absolutely necessary to get what appears to be a laminated, flaky crust. However, to get the flaky characteristic in an Ultra-Thin type of product, it definitely helps to have the skin very thin (for example, a thickness factor of around 0.05-0.07) and to pre-bake or par-bake the skin. Docking the skin is also often a good idea. These steps seem consistent and compatible with HRI's methods used in its frozen pizza plants. Like you, I am inclined to believe that the same dough is used for the thin crusted pizzas as the basic ones.

I believe I was the one who commented on the paucity of sauce on the HRI pizzas that I dismembered. However, in actual practice, I am sure that more sauce is used than what I measured. What I measured reflected a loss of water during baking. Typically, a pizza sauce has around 88-92% water. However, not all of the water is lost during baking. Unfortunately, there is no good way to calculate the weight loss of sauce on a pizza, and especially one that has undergone some baking before it is in the hands of the consumer. There are also weight losses for the mozzarella cheese (a low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese is around 46-48% water) and in the dough. Since it is difficult to assess these losses, the approach I take is to make an estimate of the extent of those losses and factor them into the quantities of ingredients used to make the unbaked clone. For example, for a basic HRI frozen pizza, like a plain cheese pizza, or a pepperoni or sausage pizza, I would use something like 10% as a loss percentage.

I also agree with you on the need to bake the pizza long enough and at the right oven temperature to get the crust to simulate a frozen HRI crust. In my case, by completely defrosting the HRI frozen pizzas to conduct tests on them, I no doubt changed the thermodynamics of the pizzas and also the bake times. However, based on my limited experience with an HRI type of dough, specifically, in a home clone setting, I would suggest that the skin be docked and pre-baked for several minutes, maybe three minutes on a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan, at around 475-490 degrees F, before dressing and baking it. In its frozen pizza plants, HRI reportedly uses a 90-second pre-bake. That is for a crust without a carrier. That might work in HRI's conveyor ovens but I do not think that that is long enough in a typical home oven, especially if a carrier is used. Since ovens vary by type and from one brand to another, this is something that will usually require some experimentation to achieve the desired end results. The advantage of the pre-bake or par-bake is that it allows one to use more toppings without turning the pizza crust soft. The impression I have gotten from my reading is that the HRI pizzas from one of its pizzerias have a more tender crust than the frozen ones.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #347 on: March 13, 2013, 10:31:13 AM »
Great stuff, Peter.  Thanks for the details.

BTW, it's funny that HRI calls that product "Ultrathin," because it is actually quite a substantial crust.  It is only "thin" relative to their main product, which is thicker than is commonly understood in the world of Chicago thin.

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Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #348 on: March 13, 2013, 11:17:38 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for doing the calculations to figure out what my motherís pie crust recipe looks like in bakerís percents.  I find that if one were to play around with hydration and oil amount, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, then that would essentially have an HRI type of pizza dough.  Do you how any idea of percents I should try for my next attempt and also what TF I should try?

Do you mean percentages of water and oil to convert your mother's pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough?

I find it interesting that you believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts.  Only you would be able to figure that out.

I am sure you will recall how Craig and I were so positive that the Carbohydrate number for Pepe's frozen dough was in error. In HRI's case, I feel just as strongly, maybe even stronger, but for a different item in HRI's Nutrition Facts. Unfortunately, I may never know, or I will have to wait to see if they ever do anything about it on the pizza boxes for their frozen pizzas and on their website. The FDA is pretty good about giving companies a reasonable grace period to use up existing packaging materials.

I know you assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it used for its frozen pizza operations.  I see why you now concluded that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.  I can see why there is a question about the fermentation steps.  I find it interesting that you believe docking takes place after step 6.

I have read that the HRI skins are docked on both sides. And, indeed, when I have examined the HRI crusts for their frozen pizzas, the docking holes are visible in the crusts, both top and bottom. I do not believe that HRI actually docks on both sides but rather docks the skins from the top but with sufficient penetration to have the docking holes show in the bottom of the crust. From page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you can see the dough balls heading toward the hot dough presses. So, the docking must take place after the skins come out of the dough presses. At page 26 of the article, you can actually see the docking holes, with about 1" spacings. If you use the Zoom feature, it looks like the docked skins are emerging from the dough press area.

When you did your experiments for the HRI frozen pizza dough could you also toss the dough?  I find it hard to imagine basically what is a pie crust dough could be tossed, but I havenít tried any experiments to see if that might be able to be done.

I did not try to toss the dough skins. I think a 12" skin should be manageable but I will have to try it sometime. Much has been said by HRI and others that the dough formulation now used is the same as was used back in the 1940s. I have wondered about that. The key thing with an HRI clone dough is to get the hydration and oil quantity in proper balance. By that, I mean that you should be able to get the hand-formed fluted rim to be able to stand up and stay there without falling or drooping too much for at least until you have been able to dress the pizza. The photo that I use as a guide for the fluted rim is the one at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. But even if there is a little droop, it is easy to reform the rim. It can even be done with a pre-baked skin if the pre-bake time is not too long and has set the skin too much. In HRI's pizzerias, they even let their skins proof for about 10-15 minutes after they come out of the hot dough presses. So, the heat of the presses (for about 10 seconds) does not stop the dough from fermenting. The proof time also helps the skins recover from the degassing of the skins by the application of pressure to the skins by the dough presses. Of course, the latter step is not one that is used at HRI's frozen pizza plants.

I have used a rolling pin to form the skins, much like was done in the early days when HRI used dough sheeters to get a uniform thickness, and quickly, but it is almost as easy to form the skins to the desired size by hand. You should, of course, make the skin a bit larger than the desired size to allow for the formation of the rim. For example, for a 12" skin, you might use 13" and form the rim with one inch of that (1/2" on each side). After baking, you can expect to lose about a half inch on the pizza. All of the frozen HRI pizzas I tested were 11.5", so that is the desired final diameter. The importance of this is because you want the part of the crust inside the rim to be of the right thickness and of the right texture (and, hopefully, flaky). I have found that the skins can be docked either before placing on the carrier (in my case, a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan) or while on the carrier, as is apparently done in HRI's pizzerias. I would not dock on a pizza screen.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 11:27:48 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #349 on: March 13, 2013, 02:08:47 PM »
Norma,

Do you mean percentages of water and oil to convert your mother's pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough?

I am sure you will recall how Craig and I were so positive that the Carbohydrate number for Pepe's frozen dough was in error. In HRI's case, I feel just as strongly, maybe even stronger, but for a different item in HRI's Nutrition Facts. Unfortunately, I may never know, or I will have to wait to see if they ever do anything about it on the pizza boxes for their frozen pizzas and on their website. The FDA is pretty good about giving companies a reasonable grace period to use up existing packaging materials.

I have read that the HRI skins are docked on both sides. And, indeed, when I have examined the HRI crusts for their frozen pizzas, the docking holes are visible in the crusts, both top and bottom. I do not believe that HRI actually docks on both sides but rather docks the skins from the top but with sufficient penetration to have the docking holes show in the bottom of the crust. From page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you can see the dough balls heading toward the hot dough presses. So, the docking must take place after the skins come out of the dough presses. At page 26 of the article, you can actually see the docking holes, with about 1" spacings. If you use the Zoom feature, it looks like the docked skins are emerging from the dough press area.

I did not try to toss the dough skins. I think a 12" skin should be manageable but I will have to try it sometime. Much has been said by HRI and others that the dough formulation now used is the same as was used back in the 1940s. I have wondered about that. The key thing with an HRI clone dough is to get the hydration and oil quantity in proper balance. By that, I mean that you should be able to get the hand-formed fluted rim to be able to stand up and stay there without falling or drooping too much for at least until you have been able to dress the pizza. The photo that I use as a guide for the fluted rim is the one at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. But even if there is a little droop, it is easy to reform the rim. It can even be done with a pre-baked skin if the pre-bake time is not too long and has set the skin too much. In HRI's pizzerias, they even let their skins proof for about 10-15 minutes after they come out of the hot dough presses. So, the heat of the presses (for about 10 seconds) does not stop the dough from fermenting. The proof time also helps the skins recover from the degassing of the skins by the application of pressure to the skins by the dough presses. Of course, the latter step is not one that is used at HRI's frozen pizza plants.

I have used a rolling pin to form the skins, much like was done in the early days when HRI used dough sheeters to get a uniform thickness, and quickly, but it is almost as easy to form the skins to the desired size by hand. You should, of course, make the skin a bit larger than the desired size to allow for the formation of the rim. For example, for a 12" skin, you might use 13" and form the rim with one inch of that (1/2" on each side). After baking, you can expect to lose about a half inch on the pizza. All of the frozen HRI pizzas I tested were 11.5", so that is the desired final diameter. The importance of this is because you want the part of the crust inside the rim to be of the right thickness and of the right texture (and, hopefully, flaky). I have found that the skins can be docked either before placing on the carrier (in my case, a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan) or while on the carrier, as is apparently done in HRI's pizzerias. I would not dock on a pizza screen.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I mean percentages of water and oil to convert my motherís pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough if that is possible, but if it isnít possible that is okay.

I do recall how Craig and you were so positive that the Carbohydrate number for Pepeís frozen dough was in error.  I understand now how you feel just as strongly, or maybe even stronger about a different item in HRIís Nutrition Facts.  I wish you good luck in finding out what you want to know.

Thanks for telling me that you read the HRI skins are docked on both sides, but their specialized equipment probably is doing that in one step.  I didnít realize anyone could use the zoom feature on a photo, but found that interesting.  I see now that the docking holes  after the skins came out of the dough presses. 

I know that HRI and others said the dough formulation now used is the same dough formulation used back in 1940ís, but I also wonder about that.  I understand the key thing would be to get the hydration and oil quantity in proper balance.  I saw that photo that you use as a guide for the fluted rim at Reply 195.  I didnít know that could be done with a pre-baked skin if the pre-bake time is not too long as to set the crust too much.  I do recall though that in HRIís pizzerias they let their skins proof for about 10-15 minutes after they come out of the hot dough presses.  I can understand that the skins then can recover from the degassing of the skins by the application of pressure to the skins by the dough presses.  I recall when I had a hot dough press how my dough balls wanted to contact back and then never really used that hot dough press anymore, but do recall Tom Lehmann posting that usually something has to be added to the dough so the dough balls donít want to contact back, but I could see if AP flour is used and not a lot of mixing time, then the skins wouldnít want to contact back like mine did.  I now wish I still had my hot dough press to play around with.  :-D I also recall when I was trying to work on pre-baking those UltraThin crusts what steps needed to be taken to make sure they were pre-baked right. 

Maybe I will also use a rolling pin in my next attempt to form the skins.  I didnít think about making the skin a bit larger than the desired size to allow for the formation of the rim.  Thanks for reminding me of that.  I will have to pick up my docker at market again.  I did have it home last weekend, but then took it back to market.

Norma


 

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