Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 85354 times)

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Offline tombiasi

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Re: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #560 on: March 25, 2013, 11:04:26 PM »
Believe it or not Tom, the best American style pizza I've ever had.  :-D
It was last night's "pushing the envelope" trial over on the HRI thread. Even though it was a same day dough the 4% idy was too much for even the 24% oil to handle. Pushed the "pie crust" type dough we are playing with into a more lighter an softer sort of very tasty Papa John-ish pizza. Bob was startled!  :o
OK, Unless my math is way off that's a 10 inch pie?
I have never cooked a pizza with that much oil.
You make me want to try it.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #561 on: March 25, 2013, 11:22:29 PM »
OK, Unless my math is way off that's a 10 inch pie?
I have never cooked a pizza with that much oil.
You make me want to try it.
Oh, sorry...yes it was for a 10in. But to be honest, after doing a "book fold" roll out on it twice I ended up oversized even after crimping the edges ala HRI. If you try this Tom, seriously, don't worry about the book folds(I've learned this is too oily for that technique to be effective here) and just roll it out for a 12 in. pizza. I hope you try it, I was surprised at the crust flavor for only being a few hr. old dough.  ;)

Bob                                         
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #562 on: March 26, 2013, 10:05:28 AM »
Bob and Tom,

I have studied the HRI Nutrition Facts for its 12" frozen cheese, pepperoni and sausage pizzas in great detail, with about thirty pages of notes and calculations to date, and I have tested some of their frozen pepperoni and sausage pizzas, and if we assume that the HRI Nutrition Facts are correct, and also that HRI is using a basic low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (with 6 grams of Total Fat and 3.5 grams of Sat Fat per ounce of cheese), I do not see anything to support using 24% corn oil. However, there is no way to know for sure, for two reasons. First, Nutrition Facts often contain errors, about one-quarter of the time based on studies. Second, under FDA rules and guidelines, the Nutrition Facts are allowed to be off by up to 20% on either side for certain nutrients. So, if a company decides to boost the numbers for the "good" guys, like protein and dietary fiber, and to drop the numbers for the "bad" guys, like calories, fat, sodium and cholesterol, they are likely to get away with that so long as they stay within the 20% range. Even if they go outside of that range, they are likely to go undetected since the FDA does not audit Nutrition Facts and will usually only intervene if there are wild and unsubstantiated health claims or there is a major health issue. Since the FDA has limited enforcement resources, the policy is, in effect, one of self policing.

The above said, I would try using around 19% corn oil, and I would boost the formula hydration by the difference between 24% corn oil and 19% corn oil. On the assumption that HRI is using a 15-ounce dough ball, for a 12" pizza, which I think has support based on the weight measurements I took from the HRI frozen pizzas that I defrosted and dissected, I would slightly increase the thickness factor to 0.13263 [15/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.13263]. That would be the thickness factor value to use for any size pizza, including Bob's 10" size pizza. However, for sizes other than 12", the amounts of cheese, sauce and any toppings will have to be adjusted proportionately depending on the type of pizza made. For example, for a 12" cheese or pepperoni pizza, I would assume 10 ounces of mozzarella cheese and slightly less than one ounce of sliced pepperoni (but there has to be exactly 14 slices and arranged on the pizza in a 3-4-4-3 pattern). I would use less cheese for a sausage pizza because it appears from my tests that HRI uses less cheese for its sausage pizzas than for its cheese and pepperoni pizzas, and a healthy amount of sausage to compensate for the lower cheese usage. All of this seems to be consistent with the weights of their pizzas as reported on their pizza boxes and when the actual pizzas are weighed on a scale. For example, the stated weight of an HRI cheese pizza is 27.1 ounces (768 grams); 27.94 ounces (792 grams) for a pepperoni pizza; and 30.05 ounces (852 grams) for a sausage pizza. In practice, the actual pizza weights are likely to be slightly more than what is stated on the boxes because HRI does not want to be charged with selling underweight products. But the differences in weights will be small.

If I am correct on the type of low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese that I believe HRI is using, based soley on the Nutrition Facts, there are many retail level brands, both national and house brands, that should work. The protein and sodium levels may vary from brand to brand but they are unlikely to vary enough to be an issue. I have been using the Precious brand for my tests, simply because I wanted to use a national brand that might be of higher quality than a house brand, or lesser brand, but I am confident that just about any brand should work if the fat numbers are correct as noted above. As for the pepperoni, HRI uses a natural product that is not usually available at the retail level. I liked the taste of the HRI pepperoni and would have preferred to use a comparable product but I ended up using a fairly generic retail brand, Armour, for my experiments.

With respect to the amount of yeast (IDY) to use, I would say that it should be more than 2% for a dough that is intended to simulate a dough that HRI would use to make a frozen pizza. For an emergency dough that is carefully monitored to be sure that it doesn't rise and ferment too fast, say, more than a doubling, I think a value of 2.5%, and maybe even less (but still above 2%) depending on the ambient room temperature, should work. The same value should also work for a dough that is to be cold fermented for a day or two, or maybe even three days, as is apparently the case with the dough balls HRI uses in its pizzerias. However, I would perhaps use less than 2.5% IDY for a three-day cold fermentation application to keep the dough from fermenting too much and adversely affecting the crumb structure. From what I have been able to tell, the large amount of corn oil does seem to impede fermentation even for a cold fermented dough. So, one is unlikely to see a runaway dough that is billowy and gassy. It is more likely to be firm to the touch. even though it may be double or even close to a tripling in volume.

For the flour, I would use an unbleached all-purpose flour with a modest protein level of around 11%. A good choice would be the retail level Gold Medal unbleached all-purpose flour, which is avaiable just about everywhere. The King Arthur all-purpose flour should also work but its protein content is around 11.7%, which would be on the high side.

As for the sauce, it appears that the amounts of sauce that HRI uses for its pizzas can vary from one pizza to another so I don't yet have a good fix on the amount to use although around 4 ounces by weight (or a bit over 2 fluid ounces for a 12" pizza) seems to be a good starting point without throwing the Nutrition Facts numbers off. However, as for the sauce itself, to be a clone of the sauce HRI uses on its frozen pizzas, it should comprise only a thick tomato puree, water, oregano, salt (which may already be in the puree), and black pepper. For the HRI frozen pizzas I examined, and ate, I did not detect either the flavor or appearance of the oregano or black pepper. Most likely they are ground very fine, perhaps to keep their sauce dispensing equipment from getting clogged and malfunctioning. In the absence of a puree, other alternatives can be used, such as a puree that is not a thick puree. In that case, the water can be omitted. There is a fair amount of evidence pointing to Stanislaus as the source of the heavy puree used by HRI. If that is correct, then a good fresh-pack tomato product should be usable. One possibility at the retail level is the Classico heavy puree as is often sold at Wal-Mart but, unfortunately, not at my local Wal-Mart. The Classico product can be seen at http://tomatoes.classico.com/products/. Other Escalon fresh-pack tomatoes are also likely to be good options, such as the Bonta and Bella Rosa heavy puree products at the professional level.

As one might expect, some experimentation may be required. This applies to the methods used to make the dough, to manage it, to form into a docked skin with fluted edges, to pre-bake the skin, and dress and finish baking it--using a carrier like a dark anodized perforated disk or directly on a stone surface. However, if the objective is to simulate an HRI pizza, the formulation and the form, fit and function have to be right in my opinion, and just tossing ingredients around without regard to these factors is likely to result in a pizza that does not resemble an HRI pizza, even though it might be a very good pizza and possiby even better than an HRI pizza. My goal has been to make a credible clone, not a better pizza. What I have done above is to establish a framework and roadmap for optimizing the effort to achieve a credible clone within the base of knowledge that we have accumulated on the HRI pizzas to date, and using ingredients that are available just about everywhere (except for the natural pepperoni).

Peter

Offline tombiasi

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #563 on: March 26, 2013, 11:05:20 AM »
Thank you Peter for sharing the results of your efforts. I actually have no desire to duplicate a Home Run pizza since I never have tasted one. I was just intrigued by Bob's use of what I consider a large amount of oil for that type of pie. I really like to experiment though and I may just try this.
Thanks again.
Tom

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #564 on: March 29, 2013, 11:27:07 AM »
Peter,
As you requested I am posting this here on the original HRI thread.
I'd like to go ahead and try a 2-? day cold ferment dough(s) according to wherever you feel we are at here formula wise. I can do a couple 12 in pizza's and I'm not particular about which toppings to use...whichever you prefer to get more data from is fine.

Bob
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #565 on: March 29, 2013, 11:50:36 AM »
Even though I've only had the frozen HRI pie, I'm interested in this, too. I just got a 12 inch cutter pan from Lloyd's and I'm looking to break a bottle of champagne across its bow.

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #566 on: March 29, 2013, 06:10:32 PM »
Bob,

I would try the following dough formulation for a 12” HRI clone (or any other desired size):

100%, All-purpose flour
50%, Water
2.5% IDY
2%, Salt
19%, Corn oil
Nominal thickness factor = 0.132529
Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (for doughs prepared in a food processor or stand mixer; for hand kneading, use 3%)

The above formulation is intentionally generic in nature so as to allow one to make any desired size of pizza and in any desired number. Additional details for the dough and cheese and toppings, including possible brands and sources, can be found at Reply 562 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245142.html#msg245142.

Whether one decides to use a food processor or stand mixer to make the dough, I would use the same sequencing of ingredients, as follows: Flour, water (pulsed or kneaded until the water is absorbed), corn oil (pulsed or kneaded until absorbed), IDY, and salt (followed by kneading until a smooth, slightly tacky dough ball is formed). If a food processor is used, one should use water that is cooler than would be used with a stand mixer because the food processor has a considerably higher friction factor than a stand mixer. For a room temperature of about 65-70 degrees F, I suggest a water temperature of about 58-60 degrees F. For a home stand mixer, I suggest a water temperature of about 65 degrees F. Ideally, we want to end up with a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. However, being off by a few degrees on either side should not be fatal.

When the dough has been made, it desirably should be cohesive, smooth, and a bit tacky, but not wet. If it more than tacky, a bit more flour can be added to mitigate the wetness. If the ingredients are properly measured out, it is unlikely that the dough will need more water or oil because the dough appears to be too dry.

For a 12” pizza, the final dough ball weight should be 15 ounces, or about 425 grams. It is not entirely clear whether HRI delivers dough in bulk to its pizzerias or as individual dough balls, but if multiple pizzas are to be made, I suggest dividing the bulk dough into individual pieces, scaling them to 15 ounces, and rounding them. They should then be coated with a thin film of corn oil, and placed in individual storage containers. Preferably, the storage containers are round transparent or translucent plastic containers, or of glass, and at least 3-4" in height and about 6" in diameter, and with lids. The containers should promptly go into the refrigerator without any proofing of the dough at room temperature. I suggest noting the finished dough temperature, the temperature of the refrigerator compartment where the dough balls are to be stored, and the time when the dough balls are placed into the refrigerator. This information might be needed or useful at a later time if adjustments have to be made.

Because of the high yeast content, one can expect the dough to rise even in the refrigerator as it is being cooled. But the dough balls won’t be blowing off the lids or becoming like balloons. The dough will be well behaved and well mannered. In terms of the expansion that might be expected, the dough balls might increase in volume modestly within several hours (I use poppy seeds to monitor this activity) and then stabilize. After about a day of cold fermentation, the dough ball might have about doubled in volume, but it could be more or less depending on the temperatures involved and their stability during the period of fermentation. For example, if the refrigerator temperature is at or above, say, 45 degrees F, the dough might double much sooner. The timing may be also delayed if there were several dough balls being cooled at the same time. It should also be pointed out that the late addition of the IDY in the dough making process, as HRI does in its frozen pizza operations, can materially delay the fermentation process. But, throughout the fermentation process, the dough balls should be firm to the touch and remain so for pretty much the entire cold fermentation period but softening slightly toward the end of fermentation. I would perhaps shoot for two days of cold fermentation, to prevent the dough from fermenting too much, but one might try for three days to see if that is an improvement or not. It is also quite likely that one will see white spots all over the dough balls shortly after being refrigerated and as the fermentation proceeds but these spots can diminish with time. This is quite normal.

Once the time arrives to use a dough ball to form a skin to make a pizza, the dough ball should be brought out to room temperature for about 1-2 hours (depending on the prevailing room temperature). The dough ball can be left in its container or it can be removed from its container and covered with a sheet of plastic film to keep the outer surface from drying out. After the rest period, the dough ball can be flattened and dusted with bench flour in preparation for forming the skin.

Forming the skin is quite easy. It can be done completely by hand but to get a uniform thickness and to simulate the pressing action of a dough press, I suggest using a rolling pin. For a 12” pizza, I would roll the skin out to about 12 ½ inches. In a home setting, this might be done on a dusted wooden peel. At this point, I suggest that the skin be docked right on the wooden peel, so that the pins of the docker do not push the dough into the perforations of the carrier, although it is also possible to do the docking once the skin has been placed on its carrier if one does so lightly. However, the carrier cannot be a pizza screen. For that, the skin should be docked before placing on the screen. According to HRI, the docking “prevents steam from causing the dough to blow up during baking.”

Once the skin has been rolled out to 12 ½ inches and placed on its carrier, an upstanding fluted rim can be formed at the outer edges of the skin. The fluting step should be very easy to do. Also, because the dough will have plastic qualities, the rim can also be reformed, if necessary, at any time before the skin is pre-baked as discussed below. According to HRI, the fluted rim should be about 3/8-inch high (although I prefer around 1/2 inch or even a bit taller). The diameter of a 12" skin after fluting should be a bit more than 11 1/2 inches. That is the diameter that I noted from the frozen HRI pizzas that I baked.

For a carrier for the HRI skin, I suggest a dark anodized perforated disk since that is what HRI uses in its conveyors in its pizzerias. The disk size isn’t particularly material although I suspect that using a disk of the same size as the end pizza is the best thermodynamic match for HRI's conveyors and bake temperatures and times. In lieu of a disk, it is also possible to use a dark anodized perforated cutter pan. HRI says that the perforations "allow moisture and heat to penetrate the crust".

In its pizzerias, HRI subjects the skins to some heat, through the action of the hot dough press. That heat forms an exoskeleton but it does not cook or bake the skins. In fact, the skins can proof after coming out of the hot dough press. HRI uses a 15-20 minute proof in its pizzerias. The skins can then be dressed and baked on their carriers. In a home setting, absent a dough press, I suggest that the skin be placed on a middle oven rack position and pre-baked, much as is done with the frozen HRI pizzas. I would pre-bake the docked skin on its carrier at about 400 degrees F until the skin sets and becomes very lightly browned. This time might be several minutes but that time can vary depending on the type of oven and its performance characteristics. For example, in my experiments, I used a dough that had warmed up at room temperature before forming the skin and a pre-bake time of about three minutes at a temperature of around 490 degrees F. That was for a basic pepperoni pizza baked in my standard home electric oven, using the middle oven rack position. For a pepperoni and sausage pizza, or for a pizza with a lot of toppings in general, I would suggest a somewhat longer pre-bake time to minimize the occurrence of a gum line. Using a pre-bake temperature of 400 degrees F as suggested above will extend the pre-bake time by maybe another minute or two. That is an estimate because I have not yet tried a 400 degrees F pre-bake temperature.

Once the skin has been pre-baked, it can be dressed for the final bake.

As for the types of HRI pizzas, here are my recommendations for ingredients and toppings, including quantities.

For a 12” cheese pizza:

Mozzarella cheese: 10 ounces, diced (preferably a low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese with 6 grams of Total Fat and 3.5 grams of Sat Fat per ounce)
Pizza sauce: 4 ounces, by weight (more sauce can be used if desired and can be embellished with herbs and spices as desired)

For a 12” pepperoni pizza:

The quantities are the same as for a 12” cheese pizza but with 14 slices of pepperoni added to the pizza in a 3-4-4-3 pattern. Typically, 14 slices of pepperoni weigh just under an ounce although that will vary a bit from one brand to another. (Note: The 14 pepperoni slices is what is used for HRI's 12" frozen pepperoni pizzas. I do not know how many slices HRI uses in its pizzerias for its 12" freshly baked pepperoni pizzas.)

For a 12” sausage pizza:

Mozzarella cheese: 7 ounces, diced (the same type as mentioned above)
Fresh raw sausage: 7 ounces
Pizza sauce: 4 ounces, by weight (with the same qualifications noted above)

For a 12” sausage and pepperoni pizza:

The quantities are the same as for a 12” sausage pizza but with 14 slices of pepperoni, applied as noted above.

For some other toppings possibilities, see the HRI menu at its Chicago location: http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf. Other toppings possibilities as are used by HRI for its frozen Classic pizzas can be seen at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza but attention has to be paid to the total weights of the pizzas. Also, for its frozen Margherita and Sausage/Margherita pizzas, I believe that HRI may be using one of the tomato strip products from Stanislaus, with finely minced fresh basil leaves mixed in. In its pizzerias, there is a Tomato Basil specialty pizza with fresh basil and plum tomatoes but it is not called a Margherita pizza.

After a given pizza has been dressed as desired, the final bake can proceed. I suggest using a bake temperature of around 450 degrees F. According to what Norma was told by HRI, this is the bake temperature that HRI uses in its conveyor ovens in its pizzerias (although an article I read said 425 degrees F). The bake time is believed to be about 12-14 minutes. In a standard home oven, the bake temperature and time might need adjustment. I suggest using the finished crust color and the condition and color of the cheese to determine when to pull the pizza from the oven. I would be looking for a tan crust color such as I have seen in photos of HRI pizzas. Since a typical home oven does not bake like a conveyor oven, it may be necessary to raise the pizza in the oven toward the end of the bake to a higher oven rack position to get adequate top heat.

Although cited before, for a helpful video that shows the HRI pizzeria operations, see
Home Run Inn Pizza
.

See, also, 3:04+ in the video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=2KrnK-TORnE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=2KrnK-TORnE</a>
.

At this point, I do not wish to burden anyone by asking them for all kinds of weights and other measurements as they attempt to make an HRI clone. My printouts are almost always covered with notes on both sides of the page. I do this to help me remember everything I did, and especially if I got such good results that I want to repeat the exercise to see if I get the same results again. I also use the data to perform all kinds of calculations that help me to zero in on final solutions. For me, the data is mandatory.

Peter

EDIT (4/2/13): For an update to this post, see Reply 578 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg246267.html#msg246267.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 12:06:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #567 on: March 30, 2013, 08:18:20 AM »
Peter,

I was looking through this thread again and trying to recall what I tried with my HRI dough and pizza attempts.  I know I didn’t try your recent formulation and methods you posted for Bob, but when watching the video you referenced at Reply 223 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313.html#msg241313 at about between 0:31-0:37 seconds into that video it looks to me that my skins weren’t as thick as when that man had the skins on the dark anodized disk and was forming the fluted skin and a few seconds later right before the toppings are applied.  I think the second man fluting the rim was a different man, but don’t know.  Also at about 1.03-1:05 minutes into the same video the skins look thicker than my attempts.  Other then changing the formulations that I have been trying to what you just posted, is there any other reason that the skins look thicker than I have been trying?  Do you think I rolled out wrong?  I do think I fluted my rims too high and also didn‘t flute correctly.

I guess the most critical factors are getting the right TF, fluting the edges correctly, executing the methods right, applying the toppings in the right numbers and baking right.  Of course, then there is also mixing the formulation correctly.  Reading your post it sounds fairly easy, but know it won’t be if I decide to give an HRI dough and pizza another attempt.

Thanks for posting a formulation and everything else you posted.

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #568 on: March 30, 2013, 10:47:51 AM »
I was looking through this thread again and trying to recall what I tried with my HRI dough and pizza attempts.  I know I didn’t try your recent formulation and methods you posted for Bob, but when watching the video you referenced at Reply 223 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313.html#msg241313 at about between 0:31-0:37 seconds into that video it looks to me that my skins weren’t as thick as when that man had the skins on the dark anodized disk and was forming the fluted skin and a few seconds later right before the toppings are applied.  I think the second man fluting the rim was a different man, but don’t know.  Also at about 1.03-1:05 minutes into the same video the skins look thicker than my attempts.  Other then changing the formulations that I have been trying to what you just posted, is there any other reason that the skins look thicker than I have been trying?  Do you think I rolled out wrong?  I do think I fluted my rims too high and also didn‘t flute correctly.

I guess the most critical factors are getting the right TF, fluting the edges correctly, executing the methods right, applying the toppings in the right numbers and baking right.  Of course, then there is also mixing the formulation correctly.  Reading your post it sounds fairly easy, but know it won’t be if I decide to give an HRI dough and pizza another attempt.

Thanks for posting a formulation and everything else you posted.

Norma,

You raise a very good point about the thickness of the HRI skins. According to the article that is reproduced in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395, an HRI pizza skin should have a thickness of about 1/4-inch and a flute height of 3/8-inch. When I started experimenting with the HRI clone doughs, my initial instincts were to form the skin to around 13" for a 12" pizza, and to use the extra inch to form the rim. What I expected to happen is that the skin would shrink during baking and yield a final diameter of 11 1/2 inches. That is the diameter of the frozen HRI pizzas that I measured before I baked them. The final diameter of those pizzas after baking was still about 11 1/2 inches. What I discovered is that in my home oven, I did not get much, if any, shrinkage during baking. It was as though the diameter was set permanently during formation of the skin. So, until I learn otherwise, I would form the skin such that, after fluting, the diameter is maybe a bit more than 11 1/2 inches. As for the rim height, it seems to me from photos I have seen that the rim heights are more than 3/8". I'm sure that the height varies from one pizza to another and from one pizza maker to another.

You and I were working on posts at about the same time this morning, but if you go back to Reply 566, you will see that I tweaked that post in several places to be more specific as to certain details and to reference the video you mentioned, and another as well, in order to show some of the details of the making of pizzas in HRI's pizzerias. I also tightened up on the language relating to the final skin size. Further to this point, I have been operating on the assumption, based on my research and experiments, including the weights of crusts for the HRI frozen pizzas that I dissected, that the dough ball weight for a 12" HRI pizza is 15 ounces. If it were more, then the crust would be thicker. However, I would have to see evidence of that.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #569 on: March 30, 2013, 11:20:52 AM »
On that second video at 1:50 it shows Nick stretching a dough skin. My same day doughs with the larger amounts of oil(24%)would have never been able to be stretched like in the video. I'm anxious to see how this new batch of dough performs.

Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #570 on: March 30, 2013, 11:44:26 AM »
On that second video at 1:50 it shows Nick stretching a dough skin. My same day doughs with the larger amounts of oil(24%)would have never been able to be stretched like in the video. I'm anxious to see how this new batch of dough performs.

Bob



Bob,

Although my formulation was off from Peter’s recent formulation in Reply 499 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244299.html#msg244299 you can see I said I thought I could have stretched the skin after it was rolled a little like a regular pizza dough, but I didn’t try that.

Best of luck!  ;D

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #571 on: March 30, 2013, 12:10:44 PM »
Norma,

You raise a very good point about the thickness of the HRI skins. According to the article that is reproduced in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395, an HRI pizza skin should have a thickness of about 1/4-inch and a flute height of 3/8-inch. When I started experimenting with the HRI clone doughs, my initial instincts were to form the skin to around 13" for a 12" pizza, and to use the extra inch to form the rim. What I expected to happen is that the skin would shrink during baking and yield a final diameter of 11 1/2 inches. That is the diameter of the frozen HRI pizzas that I measured before I baked them. The final diameter of those pizzas after baking was still about 11 1/2 inches. What I discovered is that in my home oven, I did not get much, if any, shrinkage during baking. It was as though the diameter was set permanently during formation of the skin. So, until I learn otherwise, I would form the skin such that, after fluting, the diameter is maybe a bit more than 11 1/2 inches. As for the rim height, it seems to me from photos I have seen that the rim heights are more than 3/8". I'm sure that the height varies from one pizza to another and from one pizza maker to another.

You and I were working on posts at about the same time this morning, but if you go back to Reply 566, you will see that I tweaked that post in several places to be more specific as to certain details and to reference the video you mentioned, and another as well, in order to show some of the details of the making of pizzas in HRI's pizzerias. I also tightened up on the language relating to the final skin size. Further to this point, I have been operating on the assumption, based on my research and experiments, including the weights of crusts for the HRI frozen pizzas that I dissected, that the dough ball weight for a 12" HRI pizza is 15 ounces. If it were more, then the crust would be thicker. However, I would have to see evidence of that.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for referencing Reply 188 again.  I see now that an HRI skin should have a thickness of about ¼-inch and a flute height of 3/8-inch.  I would have thought the skin would have shrank more during the bake too.  Thanks for posting that to form the skin to 11 ½ inches after fluting.   

I went back to Reply 566 at your suggestion and saw what you posted.  That is a lot for my brain to remember.   

I think what gets me confused too about the TF is looking at the photos on Slice at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued that you referenced before in this thread.  Some of those bottom crusts look thicker and some look really thin to my eyes.

I don’t think this is much interest to anyone, but this is how Home Run Inn frozen pizzas are wrapped.  This article goes back to 2006.

http://www.packagingdigest.com/article/341733-Shrink_film_scores_a_home_run_for_pizza.php

From the waybackmachine it tells about the cartoning method that has changed the way HRI packages pizzas.  The cartoning system originated in the pharmaceutical industry.  .

http://web.archive.org/web/20101121092831/http://baking-management.com/equipment/bm_imp_16959/

The above article I think tells more about what was done and what might be done in frozen pizza technology.

A part of the above article from the waybackmachine from 2010:

"Carlson agrees the market goal is a fresher pizza. He says the industry is already moving in this direction with assembly lines that are  less harsh on dough. Dough pressing occurs in less time, and thus does not kill the yeast, creating a fresher product. He also sees the trend continuing toward less trans fats, and more precooked and natural ingredients, such as raw sausage, which requires more advanced equipment".

There are also frozen pizza statistics and trends from AIB for different years and Home Run Inn is mentioned, but I didn’t try to go though all the links to see if anything specific is related to Home Run Inn.

https://www.aibonline.org/resources/statistics/pizza.html

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #572 on: March 30, 2013, 12:14:30 PM »
Bob,

Although my formulation was off from Peter’s recent formulation in Reply 499 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244299.html#msg244299 you can see I said I thought I could have stretched the skin after it was rolled a little like a regular pizza dough, but I didn’t try that.

Best of luck!  ;D

Norma
Thank you Norma, same to you!  :chef:
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #573 on: March 30, 2013, 12:17:18 PM »
Thank you Norma, same to you!  :chef:

Bob,

Thank you too Bob!  ;)  I have a lot to study before I made another attempt.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #574 on: March 30, 2013, 02:07:20 PM »
On that second video at 1:50 it shows Nick stretching a dough skin. My same day doughs with the larger amounts of oil(24%)would have never been able to be stretched like in the video. I'm anxious to see how this new batch of dough performs.
Bob,

If you take a look to the right of Nick (or whoever is in the video), at 1:54, you will see a roller. I don't know whether that roller was a single pass or double pass roller (which is the most common type of roller today), but, either way, the roller performs several functions. It forms a skin of uniform thickness, it crushes the cell structure and degasses the skin, and it toughens the gluten. All of these measures should produce a skin that is pretty tough and capable of stretching without harming it. However, that said, I also await your results.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #575 on: March 30, 2013, 02:34:29 PM »
I think what gets me confused too about the TF is looking at the photos on Slice at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued that you referenced before in this thread.  Some of those bottom crusts look thicker and some look really thin to my eyes.

Norma,

I suppose there are several possible explanations for variations in crust thickness. It might just be normal variations in preparation that are to be expected in a pizzeria, with different workers, and especially at peak times. It might be poor skills. For example, I always laugh when I see the person trying to form a skin starting at 0.36 in this video:

Home Run Inn Pizza


Another possibility is that there are normal variations in dough ball weights. That can happen whether the dough balls are scaled by workers with scales or by machines. Finally, it is possible that the thicker crusts you mention are due to the fact that in its pizzerias, the skins coming out of the hot presses are given a 15-20 minute proof before dressing and finishing. That might be just the right amount of time to allow the skins to recover from the pressing operation and to gain height. This last step is one that is used only in HRI's pizzerias. It is not used in the HRI frozen pizza operations although there may be some short delay going from the hot dough presses to the pre-bake ovens.

Peter


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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #576 on: March 30, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »
I always laugh when I see the person trying to form a skin starting at 0.36 in this video:



Peter
Haha!  I believe that is the owner of HRI Pizza!   :-D

btw, I worked the sheeter at my first pizzeria job when I was 13yrs. old.  ;D
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #577 on: March 30, 2013, 04:45:06 PM »
Norma,

I suppose there are several possible explanations for variations in crust thickness. It might just be normal variations in preparation that are to be expected in a pizzeria, with different workers, and especially at peak times. It might be poor skills. For example, I always laugh when I see the person trying to form a skin starting at 0.36 in this video:

Home Run Inn Pizza

Another possibility is that there are normal variations in dough ball weights. That can happen whether the dough balls are scaled by workers with scales or by machines. Finally, it is possible that the thicker crusts you mention are due to the fact that in its pizzerias, the skins coming out of the hot presses are given a 15-20 minute proof before dressing and finishing. That might be just the right amount of time to allow the skins to recover from the pressing operation and to gain height. This last step is one that is used only in HRI's pizzerias. It is not used in the HRI frozen pizza operations although there may be some short delay going from the hot dough presses to the pre-bake ovens.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for your explanations about why there might be variations in the crust thickness, dough ball weights, or even because the skin is coming out of those hot presses and are given a 15-20 minute proof before dressing and finishing.  I don’t know who that person was in the blue shirt trying to form the skin at 0:36, but he must be related to HRI owners, or run one of their pizzerias, because he says we have this and we have that different times.  It looks to me that he is in that video different places.  I can see what you mean about him trying to form the skin though. 

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #578 on: April 02, 2013, 12:05:04 PM »
After posting Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715, I decided to go back to the chronological listing of items in Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309. In particular, I wanted to revisit the two articles that describe how HRI made pizzas in its pizzerias in the 2004-2005 time frame and also several years later, at around 2011.

The first article is the one reproduced in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590, and the second article is the one excerpted in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395. There is always a possibility that the articles were not entirely correct or accurate or complete but I think it is possible to take away from those articles that the dough balls at the time that they go into the hot dough press are cold, right out of the refrigerators/coolers, and that the proofing of the dough balls, for about 15-20 minutes, takes place after the dough skins have been placed on their carriers (dark anodized perforated disks). One of the reasons why I reread the two articles is because I noted from the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued that the photo of the HRI bottom crust shows only a couple of dimples due to the perforations in the disk. This might suggest that if a dough ball is allowed to warm up at room temperature, and is then rolled out form a skin and is docked, either before or after placement on the disk, and then left to proof again, there may be a lot of dimples on the bottom of the finished crust as the softened dough fills in some of the perforations in the disk. Apparently the hot dough press that HRI uses in its pizzerias applies just the right amount of heat to the dough skin as to create an exoskeleton and minimize penetration of the perforations in the disk even after the skin continues to proof thereafter.

If the above analysis is correct, using a cold dough should allow the rims to be formed even more easily and for the flutes to remain more erect longer. That could also mean that the hydration can be higher than what I suggested in Reply 566. My analysis, albeit based on HRI Nutrition Facts that I believe to contain errors, has been that the hydration is higher than 50%. In due course, I will perhaps test out the above thesis. I mention all of this here in case a member wants to read the two articles referenced above and to decide whether to independently test the thesis in the course of attempting an HRI clone along the lines discussed in Reply 566.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #579 on: April 02, 2013, 01:50:03 PM »
Peter,
A change in plans forced me to use the dough from your Reply #566 after only 28 hours in the refrigerator. The rim pretty much collapsed during the pre-bake. The pizza, however tasted pretty good. This test was outside your parameters but if a more complete report and a couple of poor pix (my wife was out and took the iPhone) will help you in any way, I'd be happy to do so.

Jay