Author Topic: OIL IN DOUGH  (Read 4725 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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OIL IN DOUGH
« on: January 25, 2008, 10:29:53 PM »
Before I start any research on this topic I thought Iíd throw it out here to see what you guys think (this site being my #1 go to for any thing pizza) on the topic.

Hereís the question:   Does the % of oil in a dough recipe have any affect on the amount rise dough has? (I hope I explained that enough).

Thanks,
Jim
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 09:33:05 AM »
Jim,

That is actually a good question, and I am not sure that I have an answer for it. Most dough recipes call for about 2-5% oil, and with normal amounts of yeast you should see a fairly normal rise in the dough. However, there are deep-dish dough recipes, including many on this forum, that call for as much as 30% oil. Even then, if there is enough yeast in the dough--usually quite a bit more than for other pizza doughs--and as long as the fermentation temperature is high enough, the dough will rise. However, if the amount of yeast is kept constant and the fermentation temperature is kept constant (e.g., for a room temperature rise), I think that with increasing amounts of oil the dough will rise proportionately less.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 09:34:42 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 09:20:20 PM »
Peter,

Hereís the reason I asked this question. Being from the far south side of Chicago I felt obligated to try loowaters HRI dough recipe found at the link below :
 
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html

The dough did not rise one bit. It also seemed completely saturated with oil. It cooked up ok on a pizza stone, but when tried it on a pan I couldnít get the dough to cook before the cheese was ruined. The next day the dough on a slice out of the refrigerator that was cooked on the pan appeared oil soaked. The one cooked on the pizza stone was quite good though. Today I tried to make the same recipe using only half the amount of oil called for and the dough was able to rise and it cooked just fine on a pan.  

The first & second time: (once on a stone and second on a pan)
100% AP Flour
42 Water
24 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

The third time:
100% AP Flour
42 Water (with two tsp added)
12 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

I followed the instructions very closely. My water was 114 deg. everything was scaled out, and the finished dough temp was 83 deg.  Iím just still confused, loowaters pizza looked great, what happen to mine? Tomorrow Iíll have to try again, I might have to wait till next week Iíve been eating way to much pizza.

Thanks,
Jim  
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 10:06:50 PM »
Jim,

It's possible that the source of your problem was the water temperature at 114 degrees F. The recommended way of rehydrating ADY is to use part of the formula water at around 105 degrees F. The amount of the rehydration water should be about four times the weight of the ADY (that's the technically correct minimum amount of water). The rest of the water can be kept cool, either at tap water temperature if tap water is used, or even cooler if the water was kept in the refrigerator. It is possible to add the ADY to water in which the salt has been completely dissolved, but that is not the way I do it. In fact, if you look at the instructions on packets of ADY for rehydrating ADY you will not see any mention of salt being present during the rehydration of the yeast. It's important not to deviate too far from the recommended 105 degrees F water temperature for rehydrating ADY. Tom Lehmann says that for every five degrees F incorrect temperature, there is a loss of about 10% leavening power. I don't know where he got that number but until I discover otherwise, I will take his word for it. According to yeast producers, the most common problem with users using ADY is incorrect rehydration temperature. When I use ADY, I use the temperature probe with my microwave oven to get the correct rehydration temperature and I then doublecheck it with an instant read thermometer (or my infrared thermometer). Now you can see why so many people use IDY instead of ADY.

If you go back to the original HRI thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51985.html#msg51985 (Reply 26), you will see that I used 25% oil without any problem. I was using IDY instead of ADY, and the dough about doubled while in the refrigerator. The amount of IDY I used was an amount to achieve the same leavening power as ADY (I converted the formula amount of ADY to IDY), so I did not use proportionately more IDY in order to induce a doubling of the volume of the dough.

For your next dough batch, you might want to alter the way you rehydrated your ADY. In other words, rehydrate the ADY separately in a small amount of the formula water at about 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes, and then add it to the rest of the water in the bowl with the dissolved salt. If that doesn't solve the problem, then we will have to explore other possible causes. So, you may want to keep detailed notes of what you do and what you observe in case we need to examine more closely what you did.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 10:10:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2008, 11:17:44 PM »
Peter,

I thought by sticking true to the recipe ďBegin by dissolving salt in 110-115* water.  Add ADY and stir it in then let bloom for five minutesĒ that I would get the same results. Remember, when your cooking have fun with the recipe, when your baking, follow it exactly.

Funny thing today when preparing the ingredients for the latest batch I got distracted and when I read the temp. prob. in the water before adding the ady it said 105.8 when I added the yeast.

Another good thing that came out of the latest trial was I made my dad a pizza from trial 3 today (he is very particular about his pizza and never compliments about anything no matter what, heís 65 and very set in his ways) I received a call from him about 9:00 pm CST tonight and I quote ďI cooked up your pizza tonight and it actually tasted like pizzaĒ you canít imagine how huge of a compliment that was. I still have an ear to ear grin. Same sauce, same cheese, same sausage, little different crust. He thought  I changed everything.

Iím going to retry this thing with .07% of the amount of water at 105 deg and see what happens. I canít seem to find IDY anywhere?

Iíve been keeping good notes and after watching pizzatv I too would take Tomís word until other wise advised.

Thanks for the help,

Jim
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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 12:15:11 AM »
Jim,

It occurred to me as I posted my last reply that the water temperature you used may have been lowered to a safe level when the water was first put into the mixer bowl, which, in my kitchen, would be at around 65 degrees F. But, I wanted to rule out water temperature as a problem in case you handled the hydration differently or the water was still too warm (since all of the water was warm to begin with) or in case the salt wasn't completely dissolved in the water when the ADY was added. Ruling out rehydration of the yeast as a potential problem forces us to look elsewhere for a solution if the results are not improved. BTW, when I rehydrate ADY, rather than calculating four times the weight of ADY, I simply use about 1/8 or 1/4 cup of the formula water for the small amount of yeast involved.

If you plan to make a lot of pizzas, you may want to investigate getting a pound-sized bag of IDY. Good sources are the big box stores like Sam's, Costcos and BJ (there are also mail order sources). Good brands are SAF Red and Fleischmann's. IDY is found in the supermarkets but not under that designation. You will find it as bread machine yeast--but at a far higher price on a unit basis than the SAF or Fleischmann's IDY. The yeast producers like to keep IDY as used by professionals a secret from home users.

I'm glad to hear that your father was impressed with your latest effort. I meant to ask you if the pizzas you made bore a resemblance to the HRI pizzas that you have had.

Peter

Offline Jimmy

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 09:58:59 PM »
Peter,

My experiences with HRI pizza (Iíve had quite a few encounters) has been that the dough cross section always looks the same, being:
ē   The top part of the dough that is in contact with the sauce is never fully cooked (always white and very runny)
ē   The middle tends to start to get slightly golden in color
ē   With the bottom being very golden in color yet foldable

Although Loo didnít provide us with a cross section the rest of the pizza looked right on.

Hereís my latest and greatest:
100% AP Flour (KA)
63% Water
12% Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

Keeping everything the same as Looís recipe, except what I noted above the cross section looked and tasted just like the HRI crust, at least to me (sorry no pics).

Later in the week I plan on duplicating this recipe (with pics) and also cooking a HRI pizza I have here at the same time for a side by side comparison.  

On your advise I ordered some IDY today.

Another thank you I owe to you is that you inadvertently through past posts turned me on to pennmac. I was like a kid in a candy store on their website(http://www.pennmac.com/) great find!

Thanks,

Jim
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Offline Bryan S

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 10:34:05 PM »
Jim,

It occurred to me as I posted my last reply that the water temperature you used may have been lowered to a safe level when the water was first put into the mixer bowl, which, in my kitchen, would be at around 65 degrees F. But, I wanted to rule out water temperature as a problem in case you handled the hydration differently or the water was still too warm (since all of the water was warm to begin with) or in case the salt wasn't completely dissolved in the water when the ADY was added.

Peter
Peter, If he nuked the water, say in a 1 cup measuring cup then rehydrated the yeast in that once it fell to 114 degrees, then he might have killed his yeast, 114 is a little too high for the yeast, 120 or above is sure death. I mention this method because it's one i used many times for home brewing. I would always rehydrate in a small amount of water in a 1 cup mearsuring cup to make sure the yeast was viable before pitching into the wort, must, or mead. I'd put a thermo in the water and when it dropped to 105, I'd dump in the yeast. Just throwing this out there.  :)
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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 10:58:29 PM »
Hereís my latest and greatest:
100% AP Flour (KA)
63% Water
12% Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

Jim,

I noticed from the part of your last post that I have quoted above that you used 63% hydration. Is that correct or is it a typo? I know that you reduced the amount of oil but I couldn't establish that it was that low when I analyzed the nutrition information that I found at the HRI website. I could be wrong, but there is no way of knowing for sure sure until I am able to get more information.

Peter

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 11:12:12 PM »
Peter, If he nuked the water, say in a 1 cup measuring cup then rehydrated the yeast in that once it fell to 114 degrees, then he might have killed his yeast, 114 is a little too high for the yeast, 120 or above is sure death.

Bryan,

That is something that could have happened and not been noted. Technically, yeast is killed at around 140-145 degrees F, however, high water temperatures are still not a good idea with ADY, for the reason previously noted. One advantage of using IDY is that it can be added directly to the flour and be buffered by the flour such that you can use water temperatures of 120-130 degrees F without harming the IDY or impairing its performance.

Peter


Offline Bryan S

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 11:56:33 PM »
Bryan,
Technically, yeast is killed at around 140-145 degrees F, however, high water temperatures are still not a good idea with ADY,

Peter
Peter, Maybe bread yeast can handle higher heat than beer or wine yeast? I have read many times that 120 will kill beer or wine yeast. That's what I was referring to in my post. They are totally different yeasts, and can not be interchanged. Well they can, but with less than disireable results.
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Offline November

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2008, 04:14:11 AM »
Peter, Maybe bread yeast can handle higher heat than beer or wine yeast? I have read many times that 120 will kill beer or wine yeast. That's what I was referring to in my post. They are totally different yeasts, and can not be interchanged. Well they can, but with less than disireable results.

While there are different variations of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, all the yeasts (i.e. bread, brewing) you are talking about are still Saccharomyces cerevisiae and have similar temperature induced cell death rates.  What is not being taken into consideration in this particular discussion is the length of time the yeast is held a specific temperature.  The temperature quoted by Peter is essentially the "instant death" temperature.  For instance, the following article's abstract gives the times involved for cell death for two yeast variations when held at 135.5įF and 143.6įF:

http://www.ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/2/69

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2008, 07:16:07 AM »
November,

Thanks for citing the abstract. I knew intuitively that there was something between being alive and being dead but I couldn't find anything when I Googled the subject. When I looked again at the instructioins on my packets of ADY this morning, I saw a recommended rehydration temperature of 100-110 degrees F. Water temperatures can go higher when the ADY is combined with a portion of the flour and other dry ingredients.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 07:18:47 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2008, 11:28:53 AM »
The main point being, "120 or above is [not] sure death."  I've use yeast dissolved in water as high as 131įF when I'm in a hurry, but I dump it in with the other ingredients within just a few minutes.  I would imagine that the ADY isn't going to die within the short amount of time people usually give it to dissolve when held at temperatures between 122įF and 131įF.  In addition, even if the water starts out at 131įF, it's going reach a cooler temperature just as it sits there, which makes it even less likely the yeast will die while dissolving.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: OIL IN DOUGH
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2008, 09:34:17 PM »
Bryan S,

Thatís exactly what I did. The first few times I nuked the water and stuck the temp. probe in it until it fell within the stated range as noted at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html

On the latest attempt I waited for a portion of the water to get between 105-106 and added the yeast.

Peter,

No there was no typo, Iím not saying anyone was wrong, but I just thought it needed more water so, I threw caution to the wind and tried it with very good results. Iíll post some pics later in the week or over the weekend (Iím overrun at work). This pizza thing is getting to be complete obsession. ;D
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