Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina  (Read 180012 times)

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #650 on: March 03, 2012, 12:42:11 PM »
Hey Paul 3, you are very polite and respectful, but you can forget the sir on this website.  Yes, I do take a portion of the water from the dough calculation and put it into a shot glass, warm the water slightly in the microwave to approx. 100 to 110 degree F (I use a thermometer to "roughly" verify that -- too hot may kill the yeast -- but it cools off fast), then to the shot glass portion I add the fractional estimate of the ADY (usually in fractions of a teaspoon and don't worry about being exactly accurate) into the warmed water, mix it up with the rod base of the thermometer, and set my timer for 10 minutes.  The yeast in the shot glass must then show that it has fermented and foamed up.  Otherwise, throw it away and get some more yeast packages (rarely that happens, but sometimes . . . ).

I used to add a pinch of sugar, but haven't done so in recent times.  Some think it helps, but I hadn't found it to do much, but wouldn't discourage it.  And if you are going to use "same day" dough, just skip the refrigerator entirely and leave it on a warm part of the counter and let the dough rise once or twice (and only if time, a third time), but it's somewhat relative. As you know, many of us have made some great deep dish pizzas in the "same day" dough mode.

One tip back on the water, use either slightly more than the recipe calls for (like4.2 oz rather then 4 oz) or if using a measured glass with the ounces indicated, wet it first and pour it out because some of the water (or oil) remains behind and doesn't really get into the dough mixture much.

Good luck and I hope things turn out well.

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #651 on: March 04, 2012, 11:21:48 AM »
Below to show what I meant about the shot glass use.   ;D   After using it for the ADY, I . . . ah . . . wash it out in hot soapy water and a further rinse. Then I often am inclined to add maybe a little scotch afterwards to best clean the . . . eh  . . . glass (hic!).  The scotch somehow magically disappears.   :'(

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Offline Rich

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #652 on: March 26, 2012, 02:06:49 AM »
I apologize for not remembering my source on this but I am pretty sure that Malnati's and other deep dish joints use Tin Plated Steel pans.  I'm going to Burt's next week for my birthday, so I can ask the man himself what he uses (if I get the chance!).  He has up to 18 or 20" deep dish pans.  But you shouldn't go larger than 12" on a deep dish if you want the crust to stay in optimal shape due to moisture.

Since I have a Malnati's 2 minutes from my house, Pequod's, Burt's, Pizano's, and a Gino's East 15-20 minutes away, I must confess that I don't bother making deep dish at home.  All your pictures look great, and I get excited to try your recipes, but why bother, when I have the real thing?  I assume most of you live elsewhere, which is why you have no other choice.  But I have no idea because so many of you don't list where you live.  


« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 02:18:40 AM by Rich »

Offline Rich

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #653 on: March 26, 2012, 02:11:10 AM »
This is just to further illustrate what I mean about the pizza being "full" of ingredients above.  The picture below is from Malnati's website.  Note especially how tall the edge or rim is over the contents of the ingredients in the middle of the pizza.  I think Skunker's example was overly "full" of whatever contents there were, . . . or the edge of the crust wasn't pushed up high enough . . . or the pan was not a very high one.  Suggest a traditional 2" deep pan.  Just a thought as we're all looking for getting the best out of our pizzamaking, right?

                                                                                        --BTB      ;D
Add -- the pizza crusts served at Malnati's great restaurants are usually always darker or browner than those illustrated on their websites and marketing literature.  I guess the lighter crust color is presumed to be better for marketing purposes, but I assure you that a little browner coloring is most highly desired.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this BTB.  I have gone through stretches where I've eaten Malnati's every week for months and the crust is never that dark.  It's almost always light in color like the pictures on their site.  You know I ain't making this up because my Deep Dish Dough Malnati's loyalty card looks really beat up! ;)  Sure there can be times when it's darker, but not that much.  It's usually on the light side.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #654 on: March 29, 2012, 08:06:03 AM »
Giving this another go later today around lunchtime.  I've been craving some Lous.  Dough has been in the fridge for about 18 hours and i got my hands on some Lou's tomatoes and can't wait to give them a try.  I'll be sure to post some pics.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 08:10:28 AM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #655 on: March 29, 2012, 12:31:36 PM »
Here are the pics as promised.  My previous attempt was with the 20% Semolina and it was cooked directly on a preheated stone at 450 for 23mins.  For my next attempt I went with a 9 inch with 25% semolina, w/melted butter.  Put in fridge for 24hours straight from the mixing bowl.  I cooked it directly on the 2nd rack from the bottom at 435F for 32mins (did not use convection).  It was outstanding.

However I had a few issues though with the crust and wanted to see if BTB could chime in.  My finished crust had a crumbly (or overly flaky?)/sandy feel to it.  Is this because of the high Semolina content?  Don't get me wrong it tasted excellent, it just seemed very fragile and was falling apart in certain places.

The top rim of the crust also sank down a little while baking so I will need to bring it up about another 1/4 inch for next time.  

For cheese I used 75% Mozz (50/50 whole/part skim milk) and 25% prov.  About 8oz in all (will go with 12oz next time)  Parm on top.

The Lou Malnatis tomatoes were out of this world good.  If I had known they were like the real deal i would have bought them months ago.  I got 3 cans for only $5 too because of the expiration dates.  I was a bit too heavy on the sauce and will go with only 10oz next time.  

I can honestly say if I were blindfolded I would have a VERY HARD time differentiating which was the real Lous. It was that damn good!




« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:00:37 PM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #656 on: March 29, 2012, 12:52:34 PM »
And more to keep your mouth watering...
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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #657 on: March 30, 2012, 11:16:22 AM »
Pythonic, the pictures of your pizza looked absolutely delicious and I would have loved to dive into a piece of two of it.  A little "flaky" is often thought of as highly desirable, but too crumbly probably would not.  I've never made one that was crumbly as you described and as one or two photos seem to show.  And it should not tend to fall apart a little as you described.  In any event, your pizza stilled looked great.  I love that texture in a way.

Let me think out loud a bit regarding the crumble question.  It could be because it is too dry with either not enough water or oil.  It could be because of too high a protein flour (which would absorb the hydration more and make it drier).  It possibly could be that it was not mixed enough and too much flour remained unincorporated (even tho the "mixing" time should be short, like just 30 or 60 seconds).  Hope it wasn't too much bench flour.  Melted butter?  Probably not, as it adds some water to the mixture.  I'm finding using very softened butter added at the last point with just slightly incorporating the butter really does a nice job, but melted is fine, too.  (I know Malnati's uses melted, but in the home oven environment we have to do things a little differently).

My target for semolina is 20% but so many have reported back to me that they love a level of from 25 to 50%.  If your brand or bag of semolina is too coarse you may want to try putting some through the food processor a bit to make it a little more finer, but usually most brands are good as is.  And I trust you let the dough get up to room temperature after taking it out of the refrigerator.

The top rim of the crust usually does shrink down a bit during its bake, so I most often try to make the crust edge crimped as high as I can in the pan (even to the top).  And even increase the recipe a little -- sometimes adding a 5 or 6% bowl residue factor so I have enough dough to tightly "press, crimp and pinch" the dough up the sides of the pan.  BTW, your pictures showed that you did an outstanding job on crimping the edge of the pizza against the sides of the pan.  That's the way true Chicago Style Deep Dish Pizza is meant to be.  And it does taste much better that way.

The cheeses that you used sounded very good.  I would guess around 10 or 11 ounces for a 9" pizza is about right, but others like more or less.  And of the several groups of taste testers that I have, about half love a lot of crushed tomatoes and the other half would prefer a lesser amount, so it depends so much on preference.  Of the incredibly large number of times that I've eaten at Malnati's home restaurant there in Lincolnwood, they always have a large amount of their great crushed tomatoes on top of their delicious pizzas.  Some of their other restaurants, however, do things a little differently.  I still have several cans of those great Malnati's tomatoes and consider them, too, to be among the best in the business.

Again, I am just super impressed with your pictures and can't help but believe it tasted every bit as good as it looks. Thanks for sharing your experience and pizza success with us.

                                                                                     --BTB       :chef:

Edit - Just had an after thought.  Are you proportionately calculating separately with the pizza calculation tool the amount of AP flour and the semolina flour?  You should not use the semolina ingredient space in the deep-dish pizza dough calculator, but instead just calculate the proportions of the flour ingredient.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 03:11:59 PM by BTB »

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #658 on: March 30, 2012, 01:18:28 PM »
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this BTB.  I have gone through stretches where I've eaten Malnati's every week for months and the crust is never that dark.  It's almost always light in color like the pictures on their site. It's usually on the light side.
I respectfully disagree with you too, Rich, but since our starting points are different, it's of no importance anyway.  I used to lunch and dine at the home of Lou Malnati's original restaurant in Lincolnwood while he was still living.  I made special effort to get to his restaurant as I was a great lover of Due's pizzas at which he was a major contributor and just had to follow his great "brand" to his first restaurant.  I worked just a few miles from the original Lincolnwood Malnati's "starship" pizzeria and ate lunch and dinner there at least 3 to 4 times a month for 30 years or more.  It would be a rare time, indeed, for me and my co-pizza lovers to receive a light, golden colored crusted pizza, not that such would be bad, but . . . just unusual in "my experience."  It seems common place to you as you expressed, I know.  
 
I shared my experience earlier at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8921.msg77312.html#msg77312.  Can you share your photos with us?  And I was often a customer at the Elk Grove Village, Buffalo Grove, Wells St. and close-in Lincoln Avenue Malnati's restaurants for many years, too.  Somewhere on this site are many pictures of the great pizzas that I enjoyed at those restaurants.  And rarely were they the light colored crusts that you experienced and that you believe were common place there. Not so in my experience is all I'm saying.

Like the "leopard" black spots on many of the great Neoplitan pizzas, the partially dark or black spots are often the most desirable of the pieces of pizza.  In a way, that's how many of us Malnati's and Chicago Style deep dish pizza enthusiasts feel about it.  But either way, we all love it, right?

Last time at the Buffalo Grove location, here is one photo taken with a flash showing a not so light a crust color. (A Malnati's fan will definitely recognize the plate, right?)

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« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 01:26:50 PM by BTB »


Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #659 on: March 30, 2012, 02:03:32 PM »
BTB,

My previous attempt on post #471 yielded a more "stable" crust but the flavor on this attempt far outweighted the last.  Im thinking it was under kneaded (even with the short knead times) and that caused the crumbling.  I made another batch today and it was kneaded properly this time.  I also went with the 2hr oven rise then into the fridge.

Regarding bake temp and bake times can you please fill us in on why you decreased your temp and went with a longer bake?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 02:37:51 PM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #660 on: April 01, 2012, 11:38:22 PM »
Much better results this time.  I must have under kneaded it last time because this time the crust was perfecto :)
Had a friend over who prefers "sh*t on a shingle" vs deep dish and he raved over this one.

Nathan
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #661 on: April 01, 2012, 11:39:00 PM »
more
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #662 on: April 09, 2012, 11:56:26 AM »
Nathan,

That there's a thing of beauty....very inspiring. I'd like to give this a go.Can you please tell me which final dough recipe you went with...thanks.

Bob
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #663 on: April 09, 2012, 02:44:07 PM »
Bob,

Here is the recipe I used below.  Sorry for not having the exact percentages but I just scribbled it down real fast.

Total flour - 143.01g (107g all purpose and 36g semolina flour)
Water - 63.54g
ADY - 1/4 tsp
Salt - 1/4 tsp
Sugar - 1/2 tsp
Corn oil - 17.16g
Olive oil - 8.58g
Butter (softened) - 8.58g


Nate


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Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #664 on: April 12, 2012, 06:26:10 PM »
So with the pie on the very first page, the olive oil AND corn oil are added to the dough in those percents, and the pan is slightly oiled with corn or olive oil to prevent sticking? I didn't catch that in any posts. Thanks!
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #665 on: April 13, 2012, 12:10:26 AM »
RCB:  yes, that is all correct.

Btw, you may want to take a look at VCB's recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16859.0.html), since he gives the full procedure in a PDF.  Even if you don't use his exact formulation, it will show you the "dao of deep dish", as it were.

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #666 on: April 13, 2012, 01:47:46 AM »
Thanks so much! I mixed up the dough with the 15% semolina post on the very first page, and man did my dough turn out oily for sure. I am a bit worried, it looks striated with oil even after a good amount of kneading, I'd say 2 minutes after the 25 minute rest. I am going to go look at that post now and see if his looks similar. Thanks a lot for the tip on that post again, much appreciation as always. Nice to have a good bunch of people to talk to. -Cory
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Offline dwillingm

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #667 on: July 16, 2012, 03:09:26 PM »
Next I added some drained 6 in 1 sauce to which I added Penzeys pizza spices, minced garlic, white pepper, sea salt, ginger, a good dash of honey (key ingredient) and a few pieces of small diced plum tomatoes.  I usually don't like a chunky pizza sauce at all, but strangely have come to love it in Chicago Style pizzas.  I then put on a healthy amount of grated parmesan cheese from my specialty Italian deli.  On top of that, I also added several pieces of sausage that I had left over from the links.  I baked the pizza on my pizza stone on the bottom oven rack, which I previously heated up for an hour at 475 degrees F.  I reduced the heat to around 450, turned the pizza 180 degrees after 15 minutes, put the oven's convection (fan) feature on for the last 10 minutes, and then took the pizza out after cooking for around 22 minutes.  I was going to cook it for 25 minutes, but the little pieces of sausage on top were starting to burn a bit.  See Pics below.


Hi,

For a 14" pizza, can you recommend the amounts to use for the following ingredients?

drained 6 in 1 sauce
Penzeys pizza spices
minced garlic
white pepper
sea salt
ginger (fresh?)
a good dash of honey (key ingredient)

Thanks!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #668 on: July 16, 2012, 04:03:36 PM »
For a 14in. I would probably use around 3 cups of sauce...jus make sure you have a nice even layer about 1/4 to 1/2 in. thick.
I don't want to get in trouble with you so the additions are gonna have to be your call....I'm sure most would agree. It's YOUR pizza and YOUR tastes....but if you must have a jumping off point than the best I can tell you is to dress the empty pan with your additions, sprinkle them arond in the pan as if you were topping a baked potato....then transfere that into a bowl, mix with sauce. I just salt an pepper the sauce after I've put it on the pizza.   ;)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 10:16:04 AM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Milsco

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #669 on: July 18, 2012, 08:49:04 AM »
Hey Team,

Huge thanks to the boys who have contributed and guided the group on this topic.  I had been working with Mom's old recipe which was just so far away that I don't think we'd make it to this level in 100 years of tweaking!  I'll be passing along my thanks to BTB, Loo, Pete, VCB, and the rest of you in the form of a donation to the site.

I used BTB's 6/12/6 oil formula along with his 75/18/7 flour.  Dough came together wonderfully.  Only issue was not giving the cup a coat of oil/water before taring, that's the only reason I can think of to come up 19 grams short.  90 minute proof then into the fridge overnight.

The only pan I had was a 16" pure shiny aluminum, so I gave it two rounds of seasoning.  Not sure how I pulled off the second one as the first set off the smoke alarm, woke the baby, and had the wife complaining of oil smell for the next two days.  Anyways, it's probably 1/10th of the way to the full black outside we all find at Lou's.

I used a full 28 oz crushed San Marzano + 14 oz diced Muir Glen, but kept the additives to pinches (salt, white pepper, onion powder and minced garlic) and Tbsps (honey and light brown sugar).  Think this came up flat so I may dial up seeing how BTB advises small amounts for his 9" and I am working with 16".

Laid the cheese in a "shingle pattern" to divert water away from the center, pressed in the sausage on one half, and spread the sauce.  The other side got fresh basil and paper towel pressed tomato slices.  A few sprinkles and off to the oven.

Had the oven at 500, dropped to 450 at entry.  All was going smooth until I noticed the edges of the crust browning at 15 minutes!  I threw a sheet of foil over top and dropped to 425 for the remaining time, and the sides made it pretty well, actually.  Sadly, the bottom was more crisp than I would have liked.

All in all, the "crowd" went wild and I really liked my first try.  I'd still say I am a good distance from the ultimate goal, but was thrilled with how easy this was and how close it came!

Would love to get feedback on the images of my process here (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dxg7fpixhe6ckiw/m41jnqkna9), and a few specific questions:
1. Is getting the crust cooked right a matter of pulling the pizza frequently and checking the bottom?  Or is it just trial and error?  If trial and error, should I play with time or temp?
2. Would it make sense that my sauce seemed a bit plain given that I used 9" advice on a 16"?
3. Anyone else getting the crust sides browning up really early?
4. What is the best way to store all the flours and yeast?  I had bought yeast packets but am thinking if I just need 1 tsp maybe I should be buying a jar and fridging it?  How long do these things last?

Thanks again for your help and thanks in advance of your advice!


Offline Bobino414

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #670 on: July 20, 2012, 01:32:33 PM »

I did a Chicago deep dish last night for a friend from India who never saw or heard of this style of pie.

I cobbled together a dough using the work of Ed (VCB), Loo, Nate (pythonic), and BTB.  This was the best deep dish crust I have made to date.  It had the pastry like qualities I remember from the early days at Unos.  The usual suspects were in the dough but it was the mixing that made a difference.  I discovered early on that the Bosch mixer could not properly mix the high oil/fat content of the dough.  For years I used the KA for this dough but the mix was long and the results only  so so.  This time I used a food processor with the plastic mixing blade and only pulsed 20 times.  This resulted in a bowlful of pea sized globs.  I brought it all together by hand-about 10 seconds.  This rested for about 1 hour and into the fridge overnight. The one hour rest probably isn’t needed.

Next day I let it rest for about 1 hour at room temp.  I wasn’t convinced I should do this as the small pieces of butter might melt reducing the flakiness.  Dough was rolled out and placed in a dark springform pan.  Docked. Parbaked for 4 minutes at 475. 

Each 9 inch pie was topped with 12 oz of mozz; the bottom layer was slices of homemade mozz made from Belgioioso curd.  (Note to self-only buy Polly-O curd).  The top layer of cheese was Grande whole milk.

The cheese was covered with very well drained and squeezed Nina brand tomatoes “packed somewhere near the San Marzano region in Italy.”  These are sold by Costco, cheap, but the tomatoes only fill half the can.  Tomatoes were spiced with marjoram, salt, red pepper flakes, olive oil  and basil.  One 28 oz can per pie.

Baked for 20 minutes.

Bottom line-just changing the mix method made a good pie into a really good pie.

Bob


Offline kellmax

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #671 on: July 28, 2012, 09:39:34 AM »
Okay so I made two dough balls for a 12" pie, let them rise once on warm oven, punched down, covered with plastic wrap/bagged and put into the fridge-- and they have been cold fermenting in the fridge since Friday morning around 10am. My question is this-- I plan on making them tomorrow late afternoon and I am wondering if they are still good? I read conflicting posts that 48 hr cold proof/fermenting is best, then some say it is too long. Just wondering what your opinions are!
Any help?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #672 on: July 28, 2012, 09:50:30 AM »
Usually dd doughs are used within 24 hours but I don't think you should have any problems kell. How is it behaving...doesn't sound like you used too much yeast an it's blowing up all over the place or you'd have said so....you'll  be fine, enjoy!
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Offline vcb

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #673 on: July 28, 2012, 10:37:32 AM »
You should be fine using your dough after 2 days in the fridge. I've made good deep dish with dough that had been in the fridge for 3 days. I wouldn't go too many days though or you might end up with beer in a ziploc. :-)

Your dough may be more flavorful and the texture of your crust may be less flaky and more crumbly than a short same-day risen dough.

I currently make my pizza dough an hour or 2 before I plan to use it and don't bother with the overnight refrigeration any more. It may just be my tastebuds, but a less fermented dough with a short rising time tastes more authentic to me.

Let us know how your dough works out for you. :-)
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Offline kellmax

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #674 on: July 28, 2012, 03:06:22 PM »
Thank you!
The dough doesn't look too bubbly at all...it's slightly puffy...smells great,too. As long as it stays like this tomorrow I should be good.
MMM Can't wait!