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[Chet]

 My wife just told me we need a new oven, wonder if any pizza pros here can make any suggestions on an Electric range for our kitchen, I guess I will be looking for something with a good history and what ones are good choices for making pizza, do any of these new electric ranges get above 500 deg.

    thanks
       Chet

[sourdough girl]

Hey, Chet

I have a GE Profile that I have had for just over a year.  I really like this range and one of the nice features is that the oven's top temp is 550^o F... but, because of the convection feature, it can be electronically tricked to add 35^o to that temp.  I bought my IR gun this summer, so have not yet cranked the oven up to that temp to see what I'm actually baking at with an hour preheat of the stones.  I'd be willing to bet that it will top the 585^o that it's set for!  I really like this oven and all its features... it even has a proof setting for doughs!

Click here to see the model I have.

Hope that helps,
~sd

[Pizza_Not_War]

but, because of the convection feature, it can be electronically tricked to add 35^o to that temp. 

SD,

I think that most of the newer electronic thermostat controlled ovens can do the + or - 35^o regardless of convection or not. Mine does it without convection and I can coax 590^o or so without tinkering.

I wish someone would come up with a simple device to override the thermostat by remote control.

PNW

[Jackitup]

I also have the GE Profile oven and love it. this one, http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SPECPAGE&SKU=PGB916SEMSS&SITEID=GEA. One thing is, I can't give up on is gas. If you wanted to go that route it isn't hard to run some flexible copper tubing yourelf and if you're not comfortable with hooking both ends up you can have 'the man' do that part. If you are as stuck on electric as I am on gas then it's still a damned good range. No complaints from me.
Jon

[sourdough girl]

PNW,
Good to know... my owner's manual makes it sound like it's a convection-only feature.

Jon,
I would have preferred gas as well, but it was not even plumbed into our neighborhood when I got my unit.  We have recently upgraded to a gas water heater and furnace, but since my oven was new....  The GOOD thing about the electric unit is the smooth cooktop which, when I'm not cooking, allows me a little more "counter space" in my smallish kitchen.

~sd

[ctimmer]

We have a new electric convection oven. I have baked many pies with excellent results using the regular and convection features. Temperatures in electric ovens tend to be much more stable than gas ovens.

A recent discussion on regular/convection pizza baking can be found at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7057.0.html

Curt

[gregs]

Hey, Chet

I have a GE Profile that I have had for just over a year.  I really like this range and one of the nice features is that the oven's top temp is 550^o F... but, because of the convection feature, it can be electronically tricked to add 35^o to that temp.  I bought my IR gun this summer, so have not yet cranked the oven up to that temp to see what I'm actually baking at with an hour preheat of the stones.  I'd be willing to bet that it will top the 585^o that it's set for!  I really like this oven and all its features... it even has a proof setting for doughs!

Click here to see the model I have.

Hope that helps,
~sd

I can't figure how your adding. Turbo needs less heat. I don't know why the term convection has been used by modern companies. The correct term for a fan driven oven is TURBO. All ovens have natural convection currents. No need to have a fan to create convection currents. There is a difference in some Turbo ovens where the radiant heat is eliminated and the heater coils are in a separate chamber where the fan blows over them. This creates a very different system. Its slower by essentially eliminating a radiant function. Personally I like speed. My combo microwave/turbo has the coils behind a plate, probably because coils would interfere with microwave function. When Turbo ovens started to come out in the early 80's, they were indeed called turbo ovens or combo microwave/turbo.

[November]

Turbo needs less heat.

But pizzas don't.  Pizzas can appreciate more heat.

I don't know why the term convection has been used by modern companies. The correct term for a fan driven oven is TURBO. All ovens have natural convection currents. No need to have a fan to create convection currents.

The term is used because it accurately describes the main differentiating feature from most conventional ovens.  "Turbo" is no more correct than convection.  It's simply an industry-specific pseudonym/synonym for convection.  How do you figure all ovens have natural convection currents?  The only source for a convection in most conventional ovens is the food itself when water vapor and gasses escape.  And I'm sure you're not so naive to think food can cook itself.

- red.november

[gregs]

But pizzas don't.  Pizzas can appreciate more heat.

The term is used because it accurately describes the main differentiating feature from most conventional ovens.  "Turbo" is no more correct than convection.  It's simply an industry-specific pseudonym/synonym for convection.  How do you figure all ovens have natural convection currents?  The only source for a convection in most conventional ovens is the food itself when water vapor and gasses escape.  And I'm sure you're not so naive to think food can cook itself.

- red.november

Heat goes up, this creates convection flow. As it cools it goes down. This is very simple. Turbo is a lot more specific. Fans are turbos. As I said, "turbo" was the name used when this all started, and some dumb salesman started using "convection". Now the public is confused.

They could have said 'high speed convection" and I would approve of that, or "fan induced convection". A "turbo" is a lot simpler and correct.

[November]

Heat goes up, this creates convection flow. As it cools it goes down. This is very simple.

The only thing that's confusing is your detraction from what convection actually is.  In the case of a typical electric conventional oven, heat is supplied as radiation.  Radiation propagates in all directions.  Radiation causes fluids to increase their stored energy thereby lowering the fluid's relative density as they take up more space with less mass.  Denser fluids fall as less dense fluids rise.  Just exactly what fluids (gas and liquids) were you expecting to create convection flow if they don't come from the food?  The air already in the oven is not convectional as it is the same temperature, so no fluids are rising or falling.

- red.november

[candyman]

I have to agree that the GE Profile is a great oven, especially the new double oven model with Pizza Mode (Pizza Mode keeps both top and bottom elements on during baking).  Here's what it looks like.

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SPECPAGE&SKU=PB975SMSS&SITEID=GEA

Click the picture of the oven and it will open up a picture gallery that better shows you the upper oven (baking pizza).

Joe

[gregs]

The only thing that's confusing is your detraction from what convection actually is.  In the case of a typical electric conventional oven, heat is supplied as radiation.  Radiation propagates in all directions.  Radiation causes fluids to increase their stored energy thereby lowering the fluid's relative density as they take up more space with less mass.  Denser fluids fall as less dense fluids rise.  Just exactly what fluids (gas and liquids) were you expecting to create convection flow if they don't come from the food?  The air already in the oven is not convectional as it is the same temperature, so no fluids are rising or falling.

- red.november

Typical ovens have heater elements at the bottom. Radiation without creating currents impossible. The overall oven scheme will vary widely from oven to oven. I measure small ovens and incubators regularly. The temp differential from top to bottom is wide. "Temperature differentials create air flow". They put heater elements at the bottom purposely. Heat goes up and rotates. I guess the food is going to also be cooler, either from warming up or evaporation. The whole point of a Turbo oven, is to overcome the layer stagnant cool air between the oven air and the food. Using the typical pizza oven, the old fashion type, does not have any heaters inside the compartment, and has a small vertical footprint, limiting convection currents to a minimum. As far as what oven makes the best pizza, not sure, but most of the good pizzas I have eaten come from the old fashion type pizza oven with less radiant energy, and of course no turbo fans. Not the best for speed.

[JConk007]

Chet ,
I am no pro However I love my dual fuel oven from WOLF.Although pricey The Wolf Oven offers a bake stone (brick) option built right in. There is an element you plug in to the back of the oven on the floor of the oven, and stone goes directly over that on a special rack, its  nice thick full size stone too. A big part of why I dropped the Dough for this oven. Bakes in a convection/ turbo type mode, and makes a beautiful pizza. Actual setting on of for Bake stone. Since joining on here and reading 100s of posts, I now use  my original large square brick on top also. Note, Nothing like the woodfired  brick oven, can you find some room for that ? If you stick around here you may be builing one sooner than you think!
Good luck!

[November]

Typical ovens have heater elements at the bottom. Radiation without creating currents impossible. The overall oven scheme will vary widely from oven to oven. I measure small ovens and incubators regularly. The temp differential from top to bottom is wide. "Temperature differentials create air flow". They put heater elements at the bottom purposely. Heat goes up and rotates. I guess the food is going to also be cooler, either from warming up or evaporation. The whole point of a Turbo oven, is to overcome the layer stagnant cool air between the oven air and the food. Using the typical pizza oven, the old fashion type, does not have any heaters inside the compartment, and has a small vertical footprint, limiting convection currents to a minimum. As far as what oven makes the best pizza, not sure, but most of the good pizzas I have eaten come from the old fashion type pizza oven with less radiant energy, and of course no turbo fans. Not the best for speed.

I strongly urge you to learn more about radiation and convective heat transfer before debating this any further.  Typical ovens have heating elements at the top and bottom.  The temperature difference between the top and bottom of the oven is negligible if the elements are calibrated to operate the same.  However, that doesn't matter once you place something in the way.  In many ovens, pizzas are baked on a stone.  This scenario completely eliminates any reason to discuss convection currents bellow the food.  Alternately, if the pizza is being baked on a metal pan or screen, the heat conducted from the rack and radiated from the bottom element together will far surpass conductive heat transfer from air molecules (the end result in convective heat transfer).  So if the pan already possesses more thermal energy than the air surrounding it can deliver, where's the convective heat transfer?

As to the convection currents that are supposed to exist, without the influence of food, even if they never reach the food when food is present, you still haven't explained where they come from if the air temperature is the same throughout the oven.  I challenge anyone interested to find the air currents in a preheated conventional oven.  Fashion a small, flat hook out of aluminum foil so that it can flap freely hanging from a rack wire in your oven.  The greater surface area to weight ratio, the better.  Hang the foil hook anywhere in the oven you would place food.  Preheat the oven to any temperature.  Observe the nothingness that is the movement of the foil.  Once you're bored with that and you actually want to see the foil move, open the oven door and keep it open.  The cooler air will move in to replace the warm air that rises away from the bottom element and will most definitely cause the foil to move.  This is natural convection, and it's not going to happen any other way.

You yourself said, "The whole point of a Turbo oven, is to overcome the layer stagnant cool air between the oven air and the food." which is an interesting thing for you to say since it bears testament that natural convection currents in a conventional oven are not materially relevant.  If this imaginary convective heat transfer were to take place, the boundary layer would be a non-issue.  With that one statement of yours, you've essentially argued in support of calling a convection oven a convection oven.  Without forced convection there is no convective heat transfer; hence no convection cooking ever takes place.

- red.november

[gregs]

I strongly urge you to learn more about radiation and convective heat transfer before debating this any further.  Typical ovens have heating elements at the top and bottom.  The temperature difference between the top and bottom of the oven is negligible if the elements are calibrated to operate the same.  However, that doesn't matter once you place something in the way.  In many ovens, pizzas are baked on a stone.  This scenario completely eliminates any reason to discuss convection currents bellow the food.  Alternately, if the pizza is being baked on a metal pan or screen, the heat conducted from the rack and radiated from the bottom element together will far surpass conductive heat transfer from air molecules (the end result in convective heat transfer).  So if the pan already possesses more thermal energy than the air surrounding it can deliver, where's the convective heat transfer?

Yes, with a conventional pizza oven the thing sits on the bottom with no rack and little convection flow.


As to the convection currents that are supposed to exist, without the influence of food, even if they never reach the food when food is present, you still haven't explained where they come from if the air temperature is the same throughout the oven.  I challenge anyone interested to find the air currents in a preheated conventional oven.  Fashion a small, flat hook out of aluminum foil so that it can flap freely hanging from a rack wire in your oven.  The greater surface area to weight ratio, the better.  Hang the foil hook anywhere in the oven you would place food.  Preheat the oven to any temperature.  Observe the nothingness that is the movement of the foil.  Once you're bored with that and you actually want to see the foil move, open the oven door and keep it open.  The cooler air will move in to replace the warm air that rises away from the bottom element and will most definitely cause the foil to move.  This is natural convection, and it's not going to happen any other way.

As the heater coils turn off and on, you will find the maximum heat exchange and thats when the currents will exit the most.

You yourself said, "The whole point of a Turbo oven, is to overcome the layer stagnant cool air between the oven air and the food." which is an interesting thing for you to say since it bears testament that natural convection currents in a conventional oven are not materially relevant.  If this imaginary convective heat transfer were to take place, the boundary layer would be a non-issue.  With that one statement of yours, you've essentially argued in support of calling a convection oven a convection oven.  Without forced convection there is no convective heat transfer; hence no convection cooking ever takes place.

- red.november

I tried to explain to you temperatures are not always the same. The ONLY way to keep temperatures the same is with high velocity flow. I also work with water circulators, and the ONLY was to keep a constant water temp in a bath is with high velocity flow. When these Turbo ovens came out in the late 70's the correct term used was TURBO OVEN, period. I find it hard to change after hearing the correct term. I agree the different oven types will provide vastly different operating conditions and heat differentials. Heaters are usually only in the BOTTOM. Water jacketed incubators and old style pizza ovens have a near perfect temperature inside and thus little convection current, but there is always some.

Now here is the question, since the TURBO OVEN naming has been corrected.

I have heard or seen at least three turbo ovens that have a pizza button. The Turbo fan is OFF when this is selected. So when off, the heater elements will heat to their maximum and create the most IR radiation to the food. I don't know if this is the best setting because I don't have the experience to say which cooks the best, but as I said, some of the best pizzas are not TURBO, and NOT radiation. The old style pizza ovens have very little IR radiation to brown, its the same all around since all the heating goes on behind, below, and to the sides, and the top of the conventional pizza oven.

I finally figured out here how my little Toastmaster Turbo oven uses it settings. Regular runs the fan on high and has a mid temperature setting. When you select brown or crisp, the fan slows down to about half, and the temperature setting increases slightly. This allows the heater elements to play a greater role from radiation to brown and crisp the food. The little Toastmaster Turbo is too small for pizza, but for a non-commercial oven, I can cook perfect hot dogs in 7 minutes from cold start. Something no other oven can do. The dogs will be nice and brown and split.

[gregs]

I just wanted to add, in a large home kitchen turbo oven, why would the manufacture elect to turn off the fan or turbo function in pizza mode? It does not seem like any elements are close enough to the pizza to create enough energy from the red radiating elements to have any effect as does in a small oven. Perhaps it more desirable to cook the pizza slower?

Regarding having no convection or eddy cuurents around the oven. When the food is first inserted into the oven, the food is cold and you have the most convection action around the food at that point, and the most heat transfer to the food. The more the food heats up to oven temperature the currents will subside unless extra current is applied from a fan.