Author Topic: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls  (Read 1892 times)

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Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 06:04:26 PM »
John,

Since my prior analysis was to a large degree predicated on a modified scenario, I will perhaps press the Reset button and go back to square one with the new set of ingredients.

Also, I erroneously said baking powder in my last post. I meant the brand of baking soda. Sorry about that.

When you have a chance, can you weigh a level teaspoon of the glucono delta-lactone so that we can convert from weight to volume?

Peter

Baking soda would be Arm & Hammer.  One level teaspoon of GdL weighs 5 grams.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 08:03:48 PM »
John,

Thank you for the information on the Arm & Hammer and the GdL products. I should have something for you in a day or so. However, for convenience of future reference, I will be relying on the Arm & Hammer Nutrition Facts for the baking soda as given at http://www.shopwell.com/arm-hammer-baking-soda-pure/other-baking-ingredients/p/3320001130.

As for the GdL, I have been researching how much of it should be used in relation to the baking soda. There are a lot of technical articles out there that discuss GdL but precious few that say how much should be used in relation to the baking soda. However, I did find an article at http://www.mybreadmix.co.nz/modules/cpshop/breadshop.php?op=prod&sid=65, presumably out of New Zealand, that suggests a ratio of 2.2:1 of GdL to baking soda. If we interpret the Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough as given at http://www.pillsbury.com/products/pizza-crust/classic-pizza-crust to say that there is more GdL than baking soda, by placing the GdL ahead of the baking soda, then the ratio given in the mybreadmix article may be a useful starting point for your next clone.

Preliminarily, my calculations up to this point suggest that the flour that Pillsbury is using, presumably a General Mills flour, is not the same as the Pillsbury bread flour that you will be using, which is a malted flour that is beneficial when yeast is used by not necessary for a chemical leavening system. I mention the difference in the two flours because my calculations of Dietary Fiber suggest a higher value of Dietary Fiber for the Pillsbury bread flour than reported in the Pillsbury Classic dough Nutrition Facts. For now, I am assuming that the Pillsbury bread flour that you will be using has a protein content of around 11% and will be boosted by the VWG to around 11.5%.

My Sodium numbers, which are based mainly on the sodium content of the baking soda and the xanthan gum, and to a minor degree on the sodium in the flour, also are higher than the Nutrition Facts say for the Pillsbury Classic dough. However, this is not worrisome at this point. In this vein, it should be noted that the FDA allows a 20% swing in the values of nutrients listed in Nutrition Facts. In fact, knowing this, it is common for food processors to underreport on the "bad" nutrients, like sodium and cholesterol, and to overreport on the "good" nutrients, like dietary fiber and protein. They also know that the FDA won't do anything about anything they report so long as people are not being harmed to the point where the FDA would order recalls of products or take other disciplinary action. My numbers fall within the 20% rule. My Total Carbs and Protein numbers are in line with the Nutrition Facts for the Pillsbury Classic Pizza dough.

Peter

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2014, 04:30:43 PM »
John,

I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulation set forth below.

By way of background and explanation of what I did, you will note that I took the salt and the xanthan gum (the Bob's Red Mill brand) to the 2% maximum and the Leavening (the GdL and the Arm & Hammer baking soda combined) to 1.9%, or just shy of the 2% maximum. I used a ratio of about 2.2:1 for the GdL and the baking soda. The amount of sugar was established to be roughly equivalent from a sweetness standpoint to a combination of table sugar and dextrose. For the shortening, I used Crisco vegetable shortening as a proxy for the commercial/industrial shortening that Pillsbury uses, mainly because the Crisco product has the right Total Fat and Sat Fat profile.

In order to determine how much of the Hodgson Mill VWG to add to the Pillsbury bleached all-purpose flour to raise the protein content of the Pillsbury flour (assumed to be 11%) to 11.5%, I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. The amount of VWG came to about 0.90%, so it is below the 2% threshhold.

You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That was done to increase the total dough weight by 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. When the dough has been made, you should reduce its weight to 390 grams by trimming off (on the scale) anything in excess of 390 grams. In order to come up with the final formatting of the dough formulation, I modified the output of the expanded dough calculating tool to reflect what I did (including using one of the unused entry boxes as a proxy for the xanthan gum). This is what I ended up with:

Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (55%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.8%):
Bob's Red Mill Xanthan Gum (2%):
Crisco Vegetable Shortening (5.4%):
Arm & Hammer Baking Soda (0.6%):
Glucono-delta Lactone (GdL) (1.3%):
Total (175.1%):
226.07 g  |  7.97 oz | 0.5 lbs
124.34 g  |  4.39 oz | 0.27 lbs
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.89 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.99 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp
12.21 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp
2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp
395.85 g | 13.96 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour/VWG Blend comprises 224.1 grams (7.90 ounces) of Pillsbury bleached all-purpose flour and 2 grams (0.68 teaspoon) of Hodgson Mill VWG
Note: The final dough weight (trimmed) should be 390 grams; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As an aside, if you are wondering whether the ingredients listed as being 2% or less have to be listed by order of predominance, the answer is no:

The US Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR 101.4) states that ingredients must be listed in descending order of predominance based on weight. The following exception is made in 21 CFR 101.4(2):

The descending order of predominance requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section do not apply to ingredients present in amounts of 2 percent or less by weight when a listing of these ingredients is placed at the end of the ingredient statement following an appropriate quantifying statement, e.g., "Contains __ percent or less of _" or "Less than _ percent of __." The blank percentage within the quantifying statement shall be filled in with a threshold level of 2 percent, or, if desired, 1.5 percent, 1.0 percent, or 0.5 percent, as appropriate. No ingredient to which the quantifying phrase applies may be present in an amount greater than the stated threshold.

Thus, each ingredient is 2% or less of the total weight. They are also exempt from the order by weight requirement. The manufacturer is free to order the subset of < 2% ingredients however they please.

Source: 21 CFR 101.4

Peter



« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 06:24:38 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2014, 06:02:43 PM »
Awesome...I really appreciate the work you put into this.  I'll try it and post back...probably this weekend.

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 06:31:34 PM »
John,

Projects like this teach me a lot of things I never knew before. A good example is the GdL and the xanthan gum and how they work and can be used in the context of a pizza dough. For me, the exercise is fun and interesting, not work.

I look forward to your results. It often happens that some tweaking of ingredients is necessary, although there are limitations on the amounts of the ingredients that can be used. An example of this is the hydration since there is no way to know what its value is from looking at ingredients lists and Nutrition Facts. One way to deal with this is to do a hydration bake test. But this can await your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 06:36:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 06:36:21 PM »
Pepperoni rolls came out very good.  They were different than the pillsbury dough...but good.  Flavor was similar, but one major difference was the amount of puff in the Pillsbury is greater...perhaps I'll add some baking powder to the recipe.  I also think I can detect the difference between the olive oil, and the shortening...and prefer the shortening in this type.  So, next try will be with some baking powder and shortening.  Seemed to me like we were pretty close with our estimates of total dough ball, and hydration.  Here are the pics from last weekends attempt:

Maybe you need to let the dough proof (rise like bread) after making your rolls.  That give you better oven spring.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Killmeyer000

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Re: Can U Help Me Copy Pillsbury Pizza Dough For Pepperoni Rolls
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 02:06:34 PM »
Sorry...I got busy at work, and didn't have time to respond with the results.

But, I did try this one:

Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (55%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.8%):
Bob's Red Mill Xanthan Gum (2%):
Crisco Vegetable Shortening (5.4%):
Arm & Hammer Baking Soda (0.6%):
Glucono-delta Lactone (GdL) (1.3%):
Total (175.1%):
 226.07 g  |  7.97 oz | 0.5 lbs
124.34 g  |  4.39 oz | 0.27 lbs
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.89 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.99 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp
12.21 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.4 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp
2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp
395.85 g | 13.96 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A

It was a pretty big failure for me.  I probably did something wrong. 

First thing I noticed was that the dough was extremely dry...like biscuit dough.  I'm not used to working with crisco...and I am used to working with olive oil which might give a more wet feel.

I first tried to put this dough in my Bosch mixer...but, it was so dry, that it just slid around in the mixer and didn't get pulled like it should.

I thought I might work the dough by hand...but decided to add some water to raise the hydration.  I mathmatically figured the amound to get to 65% hydration.  This made the dough sticky enough to get pulled in the mixer.

After mixing for 6 minutes, I placed the dough in the fridge for a few days...and then let it proof at room temperature for a few hours.  The dough never raised at all.  I thought maybe it would rise in the oven...but that didn't happen either.  The baked dough mostly resembled a cracker.

I recently made the pepperoni rolls with pillsbury dough again...and realized that the first try we made using yeast was pretty close for me.  I also noticed that the pillsbury dough is pretty wet...maybe wetter than the 55% we guessed on earlier.  I think I'd like to try a version that uses yeast like this:

KABF (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (8.7%):
Olive Oil (5.3%):
Total (171.25%):
 227.74 g  |  8.03 oz | 0.5 lbs
125.26 g  |  4.42 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.57 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
4.55 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
19.81 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.97 tsp | 1.66 tbsp
12.07 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
390 g | 13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs | TF = N/A

But is closer to 65% hydration...and has some added baking powder...and possibly a little xanthan gum for the heck of it.