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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #240 on: June 22, 2011, 12:01:24 PM »
Peter, I'd love to try a new recipe if you can recommend a % for the egg & milk.

Steve,

Let me see what I can do.

I actually went to two different pizzerias that specialize in the Greek style during my trip to Massachusetts. With respect to the one that uses the milk and eggs, I can't say that I could detect their presence in the dough. There was so much cheese on the slices I tried (the owner says he uses more cheese than just about anyone) that the cheese dominated the flavor and texture of the pizza. I did not ask whether the dough was room temperature fermented or cold fermented since I would be able to adjust the yeast quantity for the desired fermentation time. Since eggs and milk add to the cost of production of the dough, I would say that there is perhaps not a lot of eggs in the dough and perhaps just enough milk to get the final hydration to around 50% or so (including the water content of the milk and eggs).

The second Greek style pizzeria I visited uses 3 gallons of water for 50 pounds of flour. That is a hydration of 50%. The owner who makes the dough was not there the day I visited but his wife and the substitute dough maker told me pretty much what they did although there was some confusion about the amount of oil (it appears that there is oil in the dough but little or no oil put in the pans). That pizzeria offers two sizes of pizzas, 10" and 16". The dough ball weights for those sizes are 8 ounces and 15-16 ounces, respectively.

I will see if I can give you both formulations. Is there a particular size pizza you want to make, and is there a particular type of yeast you would like to use, and is there a particular type and duration of fermentation you want to use? The second pizzeria uses a room temperature fermentation and the dough can last throughout the day. If the kitchen is hot, they move the dough balls into the cooler and use them as needed throughout the day. I was told that the bake time, using a conveyor oven, is 7 minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if the first pizza place uses a similar regimen. Both use fresh yeast.

Peter


Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #241 on: June 22, 2011, 12:58:17 PM »
Peter,
 Thanks for offering to develop some new formulas to try. If you'd rather just suggest a % for the egg & milk that I could plug into my current recipe, that would be fine too. Chances are I won't see much difference myself, seeing as how I tend to pack on the toppings. In fact, the last pictures posted here with the Ischia starter didn't taste any different to me than the formula you posted back at post #20, which is my standard go-to recipe. That formula calls for 63% hy. ; quite a bit different than the 50% being suggested now, but hey, I'll try anything once! ;)  For these experiments, I would be willing to lighten up on the toppings to get an idea what the dough is doing.
  The .4% IDY works well for me with a 24hr. cold ferment, though, I have ready access to fresh cake yeast as well.
 I tend to make 10" pies using my "Blackbuster" steel pans. I have always oiled or at least "Pammed" my pans before baking. Sometimes I proof in the pans and sometimes I don't. It doesn't seem to make much difference. Any help you would like to offer will be appreciated very much.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #242 on: June 22, 2011, 03:28:32 PM »
Steve,

I took a stab at coming up with a couple of Greek style dough formulations for you to attempt based on my analysis of the two Greek style pizzas I tried during my recent trip to Massachusetts. For convenience, I will refer to the two formulations as Greek MA#1 (with the eggs and milk) and Greek MA#2. In order to have a record of the information I gathered, I will set forth the large batch size as well as an 8-ounce dough ball weight for a 10" pizza. The thickness factor I used for the 10" pizza is 8/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.101659. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with all of the numbers for the various dough formulations. To keep matters tidy and uncluttered as much as possible, I will post the two formulations for the Greek MA#1 in this post and the formulations for Greek MA#2 in the next post.

Greek MA#1--Large Dough Batch
Pillsbury 4X Flour (100%):
Water (41.725%):
CY (0.875%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Milk (fresh, 2% milkfat) (8%):
Eggs, large (2%):
Total (155.35%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
9463.23 g  |  333.8 oz | 20.86 lbs
198.45 g | 7 oz | 0.44 lbs |
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs | 16.8 tbsp | 1.05 cups
1814.4 g | 64 oz | 4 lbs | 120.96 tbsp | 7.56 cups
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 29.87 tbsp | 1.87 cups
35233.38 g | 1242.8 oz | 77.68 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation; all of the baker's percents other than for flour and water are my estimates

Greek MA#1--Single Dough Ball for 10" Pizza
Pillsbury 4X Flour (100%):
Water (41.725%):
CY (0.875%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Milk (fresh, 2% milkfat) (8%):
Eggs, large (2%):
Total (155.35%):
148.18 g  |  5.23 oz | 0.33 lbs
61.83 g  |  2.18 oz | 0.14 lbs
1.3 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs |
2.59 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
1.48 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
11.85 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
2.96 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
230.2 g | 8.12 oz | 0.51 lbs | TF = 0.1033869
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.101859; dough is for a single 10" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; all of the baker's percents other than for flour and water are my estimates

As you will see from the above, once you downsize from the bulk dough recipe to a single small dough ball, the amounts of milk and egg are quite small. You will also note that the nominal hydration for the recipe is quite low (41.725%), but once you account for the fact that milk is about 89.34% water and that eggs are about 75.8% water, the total effective hydration gets to a bit over 50%. That figure was a guess on my part but it is in line with the hydration used in Greek MA#2 (as noted in the next post). Maybe someday I will get more and better intelligence in order to refine the Greek MA#1 formulation, especially if you have good results with it. In your case, should you decide to use IDY instead of cake yeast, you can either (1) use the expanded dough calculating tool with IDY at 0.292% (one-third of 0.875%) and monitor the fermentation (most likely at room temperature with some refrigeration if needed), or (2) use the expanded dough calculating tool with IDY at 0.40% IDY and use your normal 24-hour cold fermentation. For your information, 1.3 grams of cake yeast is 1.3/17 = slightly less than 1/12th of one of those small 17-gram cake yeast cubes sold in some supermarkets.

I also called Pillsbury Foodservice today to get more information (including spec sheets) on the Pillsbury 4X (sometimes called Pillsbury XXXX) flour. I was told that the Pillsbury 4X flour is a bleached, bromated flour with a protein content of 12.6%. There are actually two versions of that flour, one with enrichment (vitamins, iron, etc.) and one unenriched. Both are malted. For comparison purposes, the King Arthur bread flour has a protein content of 12.7%. As you know, that flour is not bleached or bromated and is enriched and malted. If you do not have access to the Pillsbury 4X flour, a very close alternative from General Mills is the GM Full Strength flour. I compared the specs for the two flours and they are very close. You can see the specs for the Full Strength flour at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FullStrength%20Enr%20Mal%20Bl%20Bro53381.doc. FYI, both the Pillsbury 4X flour and the Full Strength flour are sold by General Mills. The Pillsbury retail flours are sold by the JM Smucker company. As you will see in the next post, the Greek MA#2 dough formulation uses the Full Strength flour.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For the current Full Strength link, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53391000

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #243 on: June 22, 2011, 03:44:50 PM »
Steve,

Here are the formulations for Greek MA#2:

Greek MA#2--Large Dough Batch
GM Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (50.07%):
CY (0.875%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.95238%):
Sugar (0.50%):
Total (154.14738%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11355.88 g  |  400.56 oz | 25.03 lbs
198.45 g | 7 oz | 0.44 lbs |
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.87 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups
216 g | 7.62 oz | 0.48 lbs | 16 tbsp | 1 cups
113.4 g | 4 oz | 0.25 lbs | 9.48 tbsp | 0.59 cups
34960.62 g | 1233.18 oz | 77.07 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation; estimates for baker's percents for salt and sugar are mine

Greek MA#2--Single Dough Ball for 10" Pizza
GM Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (50.07%):
CY (0.875%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.95238%):
Sugar (0.50%):
Total (154.14738%):
149.34 g  |  5.27 oz | 0.33 lbs
74.77 g  |  2.64 oz | 0.16 lbs
1.31 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs |
2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
230.2 g | 8.12 oz | 0.51 lbs | TF = 0.1033869
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.101859; dough is for a single 10" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; estimates for baker's percents for salt and sugar are mine

Many of the same comments that I set forth for Greek MA#1 apply here also.

For your additional information, when I ordered the pizza (10" pepperoni) at the Greek MA#2 pizzeria, I had half of it left over. I weighed it at my friend's apartment and it was 8.5 ounces, which I doubled to 17 ounces. There were 17 pepperoni slices. That is about 30 grams worth, or a bit over an ounce. The cheese was a blend of white cheddar cheese and mozzarella cheese. My guess is that the pizza lost about 7-8% of its unbaked weight during baking. Maybe these numbers will give you an idea as to the amount of sauce and cheese to use, as well as pepperoni slices if you use pepperoni.

Peter

« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 04:49:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #244 on: June 22, 2011, 07:54:44 PM »
Peter,

 Wow, you work fast! Thanks a lot for working out these formula, I'll try them both side by side along with the old recipe and see what's what.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #245 on: June 22, 2011, 08:05:09 PM »
Steve,

Good luck. I look forward to your results. Hopefully we will get to see if low hydration Greek style doughs function well.

I neglected to mention that you may have to tweak the ingredients, especially the flour and water, but I know that you are adept at doing that sort of thing.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #246 on: June 23, 2011, 01:57:59 PM »
Well I don't know about "adept", but I think I can work it out if need be. It probably won't be til sometime next week. I have a wfo thing this weekend to plan for first. Maybe I'll try a batch in Normas' deck oven on Tuesday if she's not got too many of her own experiments to conduct.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #247 on: June 23, 2011, 02:12:35 PM »
Steve,

There's no urgency. I plan to be out of town for a while starting next week and just wanted to get you the formulations while everything was still fresh in my mind.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #248 on: June 23, 2011, 02:49:25 PM »

Maybe I'll try a batch in Normas' deck oven on Tuesday if she's not got too many of her own experiments to conduct.


Steve,

You know I really like Greek pizzas.  If you have time to make a batch or more, bring the dough to market.  I always have room for a Greek pizza.   :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #249 on: June 23, 2011, 02:58:46 PM »
Thanks, Peter.
Thanks, Norma. I'll bring some doughs on Tuesday


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #250 on: June 24, 2011, 07:58:39 PM »
FWIW, I learned today from another General Mills employee that only the GM mills on the East Coast carry the Pillsbury label. The GM Superlative flour was recommended as an alternative for other parts of the country. The specs for the Superlative are the same as for the Full Strength.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #251 on: July 08, 2011, 08:38:20 AM »
On Tuesday, I conducted the following experiment as a comparison between Peters two new formulas above, and my "go to" formula (basically, the one in post #20 of this thread). I used GM Superlative flour and .8% CY in all three. All were baked in Normas' deck oven at market in my 10" "blackbuster" steel pans with a light coating of Pam olive oil spray. I kept the cheese to a minimum and no other toppings, besides sauce, were applied. First up was the "go to" pie. At 63% hy., this one seemed the most fermented of the three, and displayed a distinctive difference to the bottom  of the pie. This was posibly the biggest difference between all the pies. The next pie included both egg and milk. This pie was a little overcooked IMO and hence, a little drier than the rest. To be honest, all three tasted about the same to me. Perhaps Norma will add her own perceptions of these pies.
 I'll likely conduct this experiment again at home in a more controlled environment, without the distractions of the market. I must say though, that I much prefer this style with the full compliment of toppings that I normally use.. ie  much more cheese, including feta, spinach leaves and pepperoni and/or sausage
 These are the pies in order of baking.
 

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #252 on: July 08, 2011, 08:40:04 AM »
Egg & Milk

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #253 on: July 08, 2011, 08:41:31 AM »
Last

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #254 on: July 08, 2011, 08:42:54 AM »
A final shot of all three together, in order from right to left.

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #255 on: July 08, 2011, 09:27:58 AM »
Steve,

I agree with you, that the 3 Greek pizzas you made did almost have the same tastes.  As you posted, the Greek pie made with the milk and egg, really wasn’t different.  I also agree when being at market, it is harder to watch pies to know when they are finished, because there are distractions in waiting on customers and making other pies.  I also thought the egg and milk Greek pizza was a little overbaked and wasn’t as moist as the other two.  All in all, they were great Greek pizzas in my opinion, but I also like the other toppings you normally use.  :) I had taken home 3 slices to reheat but my daughter ate all three before I had a chance to taste them reheated.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #256 on: July 08, 2011, 10:11:41 AM »
Steve,

My recollection is that the Greek style pizzas I had in Massachusetts had a more uniform bottom crust browning but the crumbs of your pizzas and the crust thicknesses look to be spot on.

Did you have any problems forming and handling the dough with the eggs and milk? As the egg/milk recipe I posted recently shows, the amounts of milk and eggs look large when used with 50 pounds of flour. But when scaled down to a single pizza size, their amounts are small. That is perhaps why you couldn't detect a great difference between the three pies. In this respect, you will note from Tom Lehmann's Q&A on eggs at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2004september_october/lehmann.php that he recommends using six large eggs, weighing about 13.5 ounces, for 40-50 pounds of flour. I used 16 ounces of eggs in the recipe I posted. I also seem to recall that one has to add about 5%--or possibly even more--whole eggs to detect their flavor in the finished crust. As Tom's Q&A also notes, the small amount of egg can get lost from a flavor standpoint because of the overpowering effects of other parts of the pizza. I think the cheese would be one such component.

Maybe in future visits to the pizza place that uses eggs and milk I will find out more about the amounts of eggs and milk.

Thanks for running the tests.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #257 on: July 08, 2011, 11:04:44 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for the PMQ link about the use of eggs. I found it informative and useful in how I may look at any further tests with eggs.
 I found all the doughs very easy to handle due mostly, I should think, to the relatively high percentage of yeast and the resultant degree of fermentation. As you may expect, the 63% hy. dough was the most extensible of the three. Further, that dough expanded about twice as much as the others, due in part, I'm sure, to the fact that these dough were stacked three deep in an igloo cooler with ice in the bottom, for about five hours at market, with the 63% dough being farthest from the ice.
 As for the not so even browning on the bottoms, these pizzas are hard to bake sometimes, because when they start to cook, steam builds up under the dough and lifts the pie from the pan, probably because the pie is sauced and cheesed to the side of the pan, creating a seal by which the steam cannot escape. I once had a pie get away from me to the point that it was shaped like a hemisphere in the pan when I finally checked on it! That pie, needless to say, was Not one of my better ones. That aside, of the three pies baked on Tuesday, I much preferred the bottom browning of the 63% dough.
 In the future, I may conduct more experiments using a greater % of both eggs and milk, adjusting the amount of water accordingly, of course.

Offline nick378311

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #258 on: July 11, 2011, 02:38:08 PM »
Ever heard of cape cod cafe? The recipe I use taste almost identical.
Dough recipe:

4 cups unbleached bread flour
2/3 cup fine grind yellow cornmeal
2 tablespoons sugar
1¼ teaspoons table salt, or 2 ½ teaspoons kosher salt
2 ¼ teaspoons instant yeast
5 Tablespoons corn oil
1 cups water between 90° and 95°F
½ cup milk
The milk is an important part. Also, roll the dough VERY thin and when you place it on the pan (deep dish pan 1 to 2 inches) push the sides of the crust up on the pan. Make sure you spread the sauce to about the edge of the pan, and spread the cheese (use a mixture of mostly mozzarella and mild cheddar with parm. mixed in) to the edge, preferably putting some extra on the crust because cheddar cheese is what makes it that black color. Also make sure to oil the pan well. Cook at 450 for 10-15 minutes until it looks done to you. This is the sauce recipe I use

28 oz. can crushed tomatoes (preferably 6 in 1s or pastenes)
1 teaspoon fresh yellow onion, finely chopped
1 clove fresh garlic, minced
1 teaspoon fresh thyme
1/2 teaspoon fresh oregano
1/2 teaspoon salt (or to taste)
pinch of rosemary
1-1 ½ tbsp of olive oil
1/2 teaspoon of sugar

Offline nick378311

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #259 on: July 11, 2011, 02:40:28 PM »
Also, make sure you just use a small amount of dough on each pizza because they should be 10 inches and need to be rolled thin. But being from Mass myself, once I moved I couldn't live with out bar-room style pizza.  I went back to visit about a month ago and went to lynwood and cape cod cafe (first time and 5 years) and realized I HAD to learn the recipe because I couldn't live without it. Trust me, this recipe is almost dead-on.