Author Topic: Greek pizza  (Read 128604 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #275 on: August 24, 2011, 09:47:38 AM »
Norma,

I'd like to report that the last pizza you made using the MA#2 recipe (at Reply 243 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg144180.html#msg144180) looks like the one I had in Massachusetts except that you used different toppings and it appears that you baked the pizza longer and got a darker crust and what appears to be a crispier crust. However, as best I can recall, the bottom of your pizza looks the same as the one I had in Massachusetts. Remember, also, that the pizza I had was baked in a conveyor oven, not in a deck oven.

The above said, however, I think your choice of cheeses and toppings made for what appears to be a very tasty pizza that I think one would be hard pressed not to like. When I read the recent Slice/SeriousEats piece on Greek pizzas that you referenced, I can understand that some people might not like that style. However, as we all know, there can be both good and bad manifestations or interpretations of any style of pizza. In the case of the Greek style, it may well be that that style evolved in a more individualistic and diversified way. When I was a kid growing up in Massachusetts, near a strong Greek community, the standing joke was that when a Greek came to the U.S., the first thing he did was to open a restaurant. They did not come out of an existing pizza culture with standard guidelines and, hence, made up things as they went along. Maybe that is how eggs and milk ended up in some Greek style pizza doughs and how cheddar cheese ended up on their pizzas. If one were to survey the different forms of Greeks style doughs, I think that they would find a fairly wide range of variations.

I think that the key to success with the Greek style is to use a good recipe, the right pan in the right size and the right lubricant. With respect to the lubricant, I have read articles about using solid fats to lubricate the pans, such as lard and the like, but I would think that the fats would be absorbed into the crusts as they melt during baking and make for a less crispy bottom crust, which is a characteristic that I personally like. By contrast, with oil as the lubricant, the dressed pizza would "float" on the oil and be "fried" by it and not trap any air between the crust and pan as might happen as a solid fat melts. By any chance, have you ever used a solid fat with the Greek style pizza to lubricate the pan? I also wonder what a liquid form of lard, like the liquid manteca you have experimented with and that I see in the Hispanic markets near me, would work as a pan lubricant, even though it is unlikely that professionals would use such a fat (apart from health/nutrition reasons). I also wonder whether using a solid fat would lead to a waxy mouthfeel in the crust when cooled, and what effect it would have on reheating leftover slices.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #276 on: August 24, 2011, 10:28:20 AM »
Norma,

I'd like to report that the last pizza you made using the MA#2 recipe (at Reply 243 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg144180.html#msg144180) looks like the one I had in Massachusetts except that you used different toppings and it appears that you baked the pizza longer and got a darker crust and what appears to be a crispier crust. However, as best I can recall, the bottom of your pizza looks the same as the one I had in Massachusetts. Remember, also, that the pizza I had was baked in a conveyor oven, not in a deck oven.

The above said, however, I think your choice of cheeses and toppings made for what appears to be a very tasty pizza that I think one would be hard pressed not to like. When I read the recent Slice/SeriousEats piece on Greek pizzas that you referenced, I can understand that some people might not like that style. However, as we all know, there can be both good and bad manifestations or interpretations of any style of pizza. In the case of the Greek style, it may well be that that style evolved in a more individualistic and diversified way. When I was a kid growing up in Massachusetts, near a strong Greek community, the standing joke was that when a Greek came to the U.S., the first thing he did was to open a restaurant. They did not come out of an existing pizza culture with standard guidelines and, hence, made up things as they went along. Maybe that is how eggs and milk ended up in some Greek style pizza doughs and how cheddar cheese ended up on their pizzas. If one were to survey the different forms of Greeks style doughs, I think that they would find a fairly wide range of variations.

I think that the key to success with the Greek style is to use a good recipe, the right pan in the right size and the right lubricant. With respect to the lubricant, I have read articles about using solid fats to lubricate the pans, such as lard and the like, but I would think that the fats would be absorbed into the crusts as they melt during baking and make for a less crispy bottom crust, which is a characteristic that I personally like. By contrast, with oil as the lubricant, the dressed pizza would "float" on the oil and be "fried" by it and not trap any air between the crust and pan as might happen as a solid fat melts. By any chance, have you ever used a solid fat with the Greek style pizza to lubricate the pan? I also wonder what a liquid form of lard, like the liquid manteca you have experimented with and that I see in the Hispanic markets near me, would work as a pan lubricant, even though it is unlikely that professionals would use such a fat (apart from health/nutrition reasons). I also wonder whether using a solid fat would lead to a waxy mouthfeel in the crust when cooled, and what effect it would have on reheating leftover slices.

Peter

Peter,

Good to hear the last Greek pizza I made using your MA#2 formula does look like the pizza you had in Massachusetts.  The crust really wasnít crispy when it was eaten.  The bottom crust was a little crisp, but not a crunch, if I can explain it right.  I can understand a Greek pizza baked in a conveyor oven does bake different than my deck oven. 

After Steve first started trying the Greek style pizzas, I really found them interesting and enjoyable.  I think most of the members on Slice either havenít tried a good Greek pizza, or if they tried to make them at home arenít using the right formula or kind of pan.  In my opinion, if someone tries the formulas on this thread and uses the right kind of pan, I think they would be surprised at how good Greek pizzas can be. 

We also have many Greeks in our area, that do have many restaurants, but I havenít ever seen a Greek pizza in our area. I wonder why the Greeks in our area never started the Greek style pizzas here. 

I havenít ever tried a solid fat when making any Greek pizzas.  I have only tried olive oil and corn oil.  Your idea to try Manteca is a good one!  I still have both types of Manteca at home, in my refrigerator. The darker Manteca and the Goya Manteca.  Which one would you recommend for me to try next week with your MA#2 formula?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #277 on: August 24, 2011, 11:14:26 AM »
Norma,

The Greek style of pizza seems to be more of a New England based pizza. I have never seen it elsewhere in any of the places I have lived since I left Massachusetts, or even in my travels around the country. I suspect that it is hard to introduce a new style of pizza to people who have never had it or heard of it. Since you have been playing around with that style at market, what has been the reaction of your taste testers?

On the matter of the type of lard to use as a lubricating agent, I think it would be interesting to see how the liquid-y "Mexican" style manteca works out, especially to see its effect on crispiness, mouthfeel and reheating qualities.

Peter



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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #278 on: August 24, 2011, 11:45:32 AM »
Norma,

The Greek style of pizza seems to be more of a New England based pizza. I have never seen it elsewhere in any of the places I have lived since I left Massachusetts, or even in my travels around the country. I suspect that it is hard to introduce a new style of pizza to people who have never had it or heard of it. Since you have been playing around with that style at market, what has been the reaction of your taste testers?

On the matter of the type of lard to use as a lubricating agent, I think it would be interesting to see how the liquid-y "Mexican" style manteca works out, especially to see its effect on crispiness, mouthfeel and reheating qualities.

Peter


Peter,

To answer your question about how my taste testers like the Greek style of pizza, they all do really like it.  I have been selling some Greek pizza slices, but nothing like my regular NY slices. I have a few regular stand holders that do buy slices of Greek pizzas I make, and they do really like them.  If I ever get satisfied with my experimenting, I will give some samples to customers to see what kind of reactions they have.  It is hard to change someones style preference, if they never tasted something different, or became used to one type of pizza.  I know before I came to this forum I never would have even thought of trying a Neapolitan pizza.  I was stuck in NY style pizza world.   :-D

I will try the Mexican Manteca next week with your MA#2 formula, to see its effect on crispness, mouthfeel, and reheating qualities.

Norma

Offline nick378311

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #279 on: August 26, 2011, 03:37:46 PM »
I haven't gotten the sauce just right, but I also found pastenes doesn't work too well for this pizza as I previously thought. I now use a sauce called "tortorosse" or some name like that, i'll check later. I don't use peppers in my sauce. For some reason I can't get the sauce just right but i've found a tiny pinch of rosemary can add alot of the unique taste to the sauce.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #280 on: August 27, 2011, 12:40:31 AM »
Tuttorosso
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Offline scott r

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #281 on: August 27, 2011, 01:00:12 AM »
I haven't gotten the sauce just right, but I also found pastenes doesn't work too well for this pizza as I previously thought. I now use a sauce called "tortorosse" or some name like that, i'll check later. I don't use peppers in my sauce. For some reason I can't get the sauce just right but i've found a tiny pinch of rosemary can add alot of the unique taste to the sauce.

Nick, rosemary in the sauce is the "secret" ingredient used my a number of the famous massachusetts bar style greek pizzerias, so you are staying right within the style when you use it. 

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #282 on: August 27, 2011, 08:10:02 PM »
I've also added rosemary to the dough with good results, and just read about adding it to the oil in the pan, which sounds interesting, too.

Offline shboom

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #283 on: August 28, 2011, 05:39:18 AM »
Hey Scott R......Do YOU have a recipe for massachusetts bar style pie you'd like to share??
Any help would be greatly appreciated


Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #284 on: August 31, 2011, 08:27:27 AM »
This was the Greek pizza, made yesterday using Peterís MA#2 formula, with the lower hydration. The pan for this pizza was also greased with the Mexican manteca I had used for two Greek style pizzas at Reply  909  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg151435.html#msg151435
When using the same amount of Mexican manteca I had used to grease the steel pans at my other posts, this Greek style pizza didnít brown the same on the bottom crust, even though the oven temperature was the same.  I find it interesting that this formula didnít give the same bottom crust browning as my other two Greek pizzas.  The bottom crust on this pizza was good, but wasnít the same.  I donít know what caused this bottom crust to brown different, but it could have been the lower hydration or either from the dough ball that was placed in the deli case the day before.  When I arrived at market yesterday morning the plastic container had popped the lid, and a skin had formed on the dough ball.  I flipped the dough ball over in the container, until I made the pizza later in the day.  I did use the bottom of the dough ball for the bottom crust for this pie.

This pizza was dressed with garlic herb infused oil, yellow zucchini, spinach, cheddar, mozzarella and Italian sweet sausage (I bought fresh at market and I had baked for an hour in my deck oven and then sliced). The sweet baked Italian baked sausage was placed under the cheese.  I though the combination of dressings made a tasty Greek pizza.

I also changed the flour this time.  The flour I used was the Occident flour.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 04:24:14 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #285 on: August 31, 2011, 08:32:39 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #286 on: August 31, 2011, 08:34:22 AM »
Norma

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #287 on: August 31, 2011, 08:36:00 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #288 on: August 31, 2011, 01:30:20 PM »
Norma,

It is hard to answer your question about the differences between the bottom crusts of the three pizzas you made because there were too many variables. I think the best test would be to use the same amounts of dough for the two basic dough formulations (the preferment Lehmann dough formulation and the MA#2 dough formulation), using the same flour, etc., and managed the same way, dressed as identically as possible, put in identical pans oiled the same way, and baked the same way, maybe side by side if that is possible with your oven. That should tell you which is the better dough formulation for your purposes.

Peter

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2011, 04:35:05 PM »
Norma,

It is hard to answer your question about the differences between the bottom crusts of the three pizzas you made because there were too many variables. I think the best test would be to use the same amounts of dough for the two basic dough formulations (the preferment Lehmann dough formulation and the MA#2 dough formulation), using the same flour, etc., and managed the same way, dressed as identically as possible, put in identical pans oiled the same way, and baked the same way, maybe side by side if that is possible with your oven. That should tell you which is the better dough formulation for your purposes.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise.  I can try the same flour (KASL) and the same dough weight, dress the pizzas the same, and oil them the same, but I only have one round steel pan, so I will have to bake the pizzas at different times.  I would think the preferment Lehmann dough would have a better flavor though, just from the preferment.  I guess I could be wrong though.

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #290 on: September 01, 2011, 04:54:29 PM »
Norma, you can borrow my two 10" steel pans if you like.

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #291 on: September 01, 2011, 06:23:54 PM »
Norma, you can borrow my two 10" steel pans if you like.

Steve,

Thanks for saying I could borrow your two 10" steel pans for Tuesday.  I can scale down the recipe for Peter's MA# formula, but I don't know how to scale down the preferment Lehmann dough for a 10" pan, unless I take a regular size dough ball and just make it the same weight.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #292 on: September 01, 2011, 08:29:43 PM »
....unless I take a regular size dough ball and just make it the same weight.

Norma,

That's the way to do it.

Peter

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #293 on: September 01, 2011, 10:42:21 PM »
Norma,

That's the way to do it.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that is the way that it can be done.  If Steve sees this post, I will bake both doughs at the same time, if he brings his two 10" pans along.

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #294 on: September 02, 2011, 06:34:26 AM »
Norma, I already put them in the car so I wouldn't forget.

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #295 on: September 02, 2011, 07:41:10 AM »
Norma, I already put them in the car so I wouldn't forget.

Steve,

Thanks a lot!  :)

Norma

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #296 on: September 03, 2011, 02:09:21 PM »
Norma,
 Just to thicken the plot a little, I froze a leftover dough ball from last nights wfo bake. 250g Caputo00. I'll bring it along on Tues.

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #297 on: September 03, 2011, 06:36:33 PM »
Norma,
 Just to thicken the plot a little, I froze a leftover dough ball from last nights wfo bake. 250g Caputo00. I'll bring it along on Tues.

Steve,

That sounds great you are going to bring along your Caputo dough to try for a Greek pizza.   :)

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #298 on: September 03, 2011, 06:54:20 PM »
That's the plan.

Offline norma427

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #299 on: September 26, 2011, 06:03:57 PM »
I am finally back to my experiments with my preferment Lehmann dough and Peterís MA#2  formula to try tomorrow at market.  I did weight the preferment Lehmann dough ball, so it is exactly the same weight as the MA#2 dough ball.  I asked Steve if he would bring his two 10Ē steel pans to market tomorrow, so we can bake both pies at the same time.  Steve said he would bring the two 10Ē steel pans.  I did use KASL in both formulas.

These were pictures of both of the dough balls at market today, being the MA#2 dough ball is first and the preferment Lehmann dough ball is second.

Norma