Greek pizza

[Pete-zza]

Marc,

Thanks for the information.

Can you talk a bit about ingredients used to make the doughs, such as the use of milk and/or eggs, whether the flours are bromated or not, and oil quantities and hydration values? Also, can you talk about the types of pans used in terms of materials, coatings, etc.?

I assume that p/u stands for "picked up".

Peter

[moberlew]

The last greek styled pizza place I worked @ was Superior Pizza in Amherst, MA. As far as I know, it is still there. Although I never worked at Christos in Brockton, MA. that too is still there and as good as ever!! I go there for the Jumbo Greek salad w/meat and egg!!! YUM!

[moberlew]

Hi Peter,

It's been a while since I made the dough. It was always made in large quantities. I cant remember the egg count or water, milk, salt and sugar. Very simple recipe. Yes things were measured... to a degree. It got to a point that you would always eye ball the water content as well as milk. It always depended on what the dough was doing/behaving like... Summer was always different than say the Fall or Winter. There is a recipe or two on this thread that come close. I'm sure I would figure it out/know it once I was standing in front of one of those floor mixers again w/a recipe that I felt was close. More importantly though are the following things to note: letting dough sit in mixer covered for said time, kneading dough into balls then cover said dough balls and place into cooler over night. Rolling stretching dough and then PINCHING DOUGH to edge of pan. (PAN HAS NO COATING. They are always black but, not sure if they start out that way. Anyway, plain pizza pie tin w/ 1" lip that is greased/oiled w/towel. PAN IS NEVER WASHED! Wiped clean only and re-greased/oiled.) RATIO OF CHEESE is soooo important too! 2-1 or 2/3 mozz and 1/3 cheddar! Sauce is never cooked! VERY, VERY simple sauce... You do not want it competing with the crust, cheese or toppings.

There are some really good looking cooked crust/dough pics on this thread. Just by the way they look, you can tell they are spot on. The desired finished look for crust should be: a crispy yellow/golden looking crust on the outside w/out looking burnt. A light airy soft white middle w/plenty of small air pockets... Other note: KEEP sauce away from the pinched crust edge! Don't over think this. It is so simple... the ingredients that is. Following the prep steps are so crucial though. Don't over work the dough and let it set when it needs to. Simple sauce w/proper cheese ratio and you are good to go. Oh, a good pizza oven wouldn't hurt either. Good luck!

[Pete-zza]

Marc,

Thank you for the information. In mentioning the dough ingredients, you did not mention oil. Does that mean oil was not used as a dough ingredient in the places you worked? Also, was the flour bromated?

Was there a particular type of oil used in the pan? I found it interesting that a towel was used to oil the pans. That would suggest that not much oil was used, just a light coating.

You also mentioned using a "pizza pie tin". Was that a steel pan or an aluminum one?

Do you remember any of the brand names for the flour and tomatoes?

Peter

[norma427]

The crispy edges of a Greek pizza sure are good.     The regular Lehmann dough was used for this pizza.

Norma

[SnuffGear]

My NEWB thoughts on this style:

I've made 4 of these so far. All have been excellent in one way or the other. First 2 were made using Pete's recipe as on pg 2 of this thread. Next 2 were variations on that recipe.

Home oven on 550 w/stone. Rack/stone was placed in the top 1/3 of the oven. Cook time of 8 1/2 minutes. Pan is a 14" PSTK.

Cheese was a 55-45 blend of Poly O and Vermont Sharp White. Boars Head pepperoni. Sauce was Classico crushed/peeled from Wally world with some sugar, dry oregano, and fresh garlic.

I'm a 'toppings' kind of guy so the first 2 had way too much dough for my liking although they were very tasty. I like a thinner crust.

3rd I used KA Bread Flour instead of the High G. Still too thick/bready for my taste.

On the 4th, I used the dough calculator and cut the thickness/flour, (used KA AP), way down to a total weight of 12.55 oz. This one was almost perfect. Just a little too thin. (pic below. too busy eating to take more) For the next one I'm kicking the total weight up to 13.75 oz.

All in all, these were some mighty fine pizzas! Second day, they seem to be even better!

Thanks to all on this site for all the help you've given to a pizza rookie!

[Ev]

Looks like a great pizza from here.

[writerlilly]

Sounds wonderful. Can't say I can tell the difference between the two, but www.mannyandolgas.com out in DC does Italian/Greek style, too. I kind of like the creative types that people make like garden vegetarian with chicken. Nothing too avante garde, but it looks good enough to eat.

[norma427]

I just wanted to post that I like MFB for greasing the blackbuster steel pans for a Greek style pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

I had purchased some shredded Monterey Jack, Cheddar and Part Skim Mozzarella cheese blend to try on a Buddy’s clone from my cheese distributor.  I didn’t know the cheddar would be yellow, so I am using it on Greek style pizza to use it up.  It melts well and is gooey.

Norma

[nick378311]

This is the recipe for bar style reek pizza

4 cups unbleached bread flour
2/3 cup fine grind yellow cornmeal
2 TBSP sugar
1¼ tsp  salt
2 ¼ tsp instant yeast
5 TBSP corn oil
1 cup water between 90° and 95°F
½ cup milk

i use tuttorosso crushed tomatoes. i drain the can and add basil, oregano, salt, sugar, a pinch of rosemary, onion, garlic, thyme and a little bit of olive oil. Cheese i use is yellow mild cheddar (since i can't find white in FL) mozarella and parmesan. Provolone sounds good for the mix but i've been to lazy to remember to try it when im buying cheeses. oil the pan well, make sure the crust is spread thin on the pan, but not too thin or it will create bubbles. i set the oven to 475 and its usually about 8 minutes or so, i usually take it out when the cheese just starts to brown. a great topping to try is linuica style sausage chopped finely and onion. if anyone tries this let me know how it turns out please, it should hopefully help you out alot, let me know if you have any questions thanks good luck

[cmyden]

Hi everyone (and specifically CDNpielover, a fellow Calgarian trying to replicate the Greek bar style pizza in our city)

It's been a while since I looked at the 'Greek pizza' thread here on pizzamaking.com.

I was taking a look today, and it's nice to see someone else that's trying to replicate the Greek bar style pizza we have here in Calgary.

I'm a Calgarian that's always had the goal of trying to replicate Atlas Pizza.  I think you might have ran across some of my posts on the web in the past, that discussed what I was able to find out about the dough, the cheese, etc.

I think I'll give the method you posted in this thread a shot and see how it turns out, thanks for posting that.

Maybe we can put our heads together and figure it out.  I'll try to post more on here now that I know someone else is out there looking for something similar.

Here are my notes on Atlas that I've collected over the years to help with trying to replicate it...

"Atlas Pizza... deep in the darks of the NE on Memorial Dr + Madigan Dr.... best damn pizza ever, it's your traditional greek style crust.. loaded with topping and an inch of a gooooie 3 cheese blend. The top gets a thin layer of cheese crust to crunch through, followed by a tangy pizza sauce and a nice dough with a crisp bottom. My all time fav."

"The pizza sauce was mild and bit tangy"

"Their sauce has a nice almost honey like taste to it."

"I have eaten there. I am convinced there is cinnamon in the pizza sauce. Sounds like it's a secret - but I would bet.."

"Hands down they make the best crust around. It's a perfect consistency, not too thick not too thin and has a nice crisp edge. Toppings have always been top notch but the secret ingredient is their sauce. A pizza can have everything going for it but if the sauce isn't right then the pizza fails. This sauce has a wonderful sweetness to it (and a secret ingredient) that makes it one of the best sauces I've ever tasted. I've tried in the past to replicate it but have always failed.""

"As somebody who once worked at Atlas i can tell you all about it...well everything but the sauce. The pizza sauce is a family secret so nobody but the owners know how to make it.

As to the cheese...the majority of the pizzas use mozzarella cheese that comes in blocks from Alberta Cheese. It is grated in the restaurant. The feta cheese is Franco's Feta Cheese and the Cheddar Cheese is from Alberta Cheese as well."

"1. First off yes it's 100% mozzarella cheese. The only reason that it may be stringy is the cheese is fairly hard to grate and sometimes when not enough pressure is applied you get that stringy feel.

2. As far as i remember the pans were greased with plain ole canola oil

3. For the sauce, Franco's Crushed Tomatoes canned are used. As for spices i really honestly dont know...it's a well kept secret.

4. Cooking is really easy...a regular commercial oven is used with regular pizza pans. The dough is made up of baking powder, sugar, salt, yeast, oil, flour, and club soda."

This quest to replicate Atlas pizza has definitely made me a better pizza maker.  I have a large slab of cordierite in my oven to help with temperature, and I've bought some good pizza pans, and learned how to make good dough.

I've been able to make some really good pizzas over the years, but still haven't been able to replicate Atlas.  There's something about their cheese that I can't replicate, they get it to this nice golden color, and I almost want to describe it as crispy.  Mine never turns out that way.  It may just be that a commercial pizza oven is required, I'm not sure.  And I don't think my sauce is the same, which probably does make a big difference.  Inglewood Pizza is somewhat similar, and I know they're using a Baker's Pride.

The pic you posted of Atlas Pizza gives an idea of that golden crispiness feature to the cheese:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CyDyLLXomqo/TgOlyQDmF3I/AAAAAAAAALw/jnjPUR0P32Q/s1600/Atlas4.JPG

Anyways, if I ever figure anything else out I'll be sure to post!

[CDNpielover]

I posted some photos of atlas pizza a number of pages back.  its one of the best greek pies in calgary.  youll be able to get very, very close just using pan proofing method discussed in this thread.  Go to Real Canadian Wholesale, in the pizza equipment section, and get a 12" (I think it is) pan with short walls  (1 inch or so?), which IMO is instrumental to making this type of pizza.

I've never really aimed for an atlas clone, but the keys beyond the pan rise are 1) the cheese crust, and 2) the sauce.  I'm not sure what they do to the cheese to get that crust; I almost suspect they are using a heat gun or something like that to finish the cheese after cooking.  As for the sauce, I actually used to order cups of it on the side for dipping cheese bread.  It's a very thick sauce, made either from paste or well- strained crushed tomatoes.  Oregano and cinnamon, and probably not much else.  It's been over a year since I've had it though.  

Another thought with the cheese is that they are sprinkling something on there that is absorbing oil and forming into a crust... Wild guess... but I kind get a similar effect when using that cheap Kraft Parmesan cheese powder on spaghetti sauce (I pour that stuff on lol).  Maybe they are putting on Parmesan cheese powder and then hitting it with a high temp heat gun?  Just a guess.

[CDNpielover]

Hey cmyden,

I'm going to reply to your PM in this thread, so that it's open for others to read.  Next time, you should just post all that in this thread!  Your work is good and detailed, and IMO among the better and more informative posts on this site, and I think the site would benefit from having that posted and open for everyone to read.    but yea, great news, I look forward to hearing about your results!

Bakers Five Roses flour (12% protein) flour should work fine.  I used to use Robin Hood Best for Bread (13.3% protein) that I got at Walmart, but I don't think it should matter too much.  Bread flour should be better than all purpose flour though.

With respect to the sauce, there is a big debate over whether or not pizza sauce should be cooked (since the tomatoes are cooked once in the can, and another time on the pizza).  From what I can tell, most folks here prefer a no-cooked sauce (but anyone correct me if i'm wrong, haha).  One good method that is kind of a compromise is to put herbs/spices (oregano and cinnamon, in your case) in a small container, moisten with water (not enough to have standing water though), and then microwave on 30% for 2 minutes to denature the proteins and help release the goodness.  Then, let this cool and then mix into your tomatoes, and let sit in fridge overnight.  I learned this method from member November, and his red sauce #2 recipe.  Also, you may want to taste your sauce and add salt, sugar, or whatever  else you think it needs to make it taste like Atlas.  (what you should do is go to Atlas, order cheese bread with a side of pizza sauce, then take this sauce home to try and reverse engineer.)

for the dough, you said "mix at low speed for about 2 minutes, then mix at medium speed until all of the flour has been picked up into the dough.  Now add the oil and mix in for 2 minutes at low speed, then mix the dough at medium speed until it develops a smooth, satiny appearance (generally about 8 to 10 minutes using a planetary mixer)."  I've never used a stand mixer before, but this seems like a long knead time to me.  I read some of Tom Lehmann's posts, where he said it's better to under-knead than over-knead, because with the latter you will get something more "bready."  After reading that, I've really tried to cut down my kneading to a minimum really.  I'm working in a food processor now, but really I just try to knead things until I get a good ball to form.  Some of the more experienced folks here can tell you about this better than I however.

Also, the instructions you PMed me were really, really good.  I encourage you to please post that in this thread when you're done, so that others can benefit from all of your excellent work.

[cmyden]

Thanks CDNpielover, I've incorporated your notes, and changed my dough making method to a different one that I've used before involving a food processor instead of a mixer.  A food processor has always worked well for me.

[Equipment]

- 12" cutter pan, with 1 inch straight wall
- Food processor
- American Weigh Signature Series Black AWS-100 Digital Pocket Scale for precise measurements of ingredients
- Oven with a large slab of cordierite on the bottom rack

[Ingredients]

Dough:

- Bakers Five Roses flour from The Italian Store (12.05% protein)
- water
- instant dry yeast
- salt
- olive oil (not extra virgin)
- soybean oil
- sugar

Cheese:

- Franco's Mozzarella from Alberta Cheese Company
- Orange Cheddar
- Provolone

Sauce:

- Can of Franco's Crushed Tomatoes
- Oregano
- Cinnamon

Toppings:

- ham
- pineapple

Other:

- canola oil

[Dough Formulation for 12" pizza]

Flour (100%):            179.26 g  |  6.32 oz | 0.4 lbs
Water (50.8561%):         91.17 g  |  3.22 oz | 0.2 lbs
IDY (0.5%):            0.9 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Salt (1.77188%):         3.18 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Olive Oil (0.4%):         0.72 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.6%):      6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.42 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
Sugar (2.10938%):         3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Total (159.23736%):         285.46

[Dough Preparation, approximately 48 hours before Pizza Day]

- Into the bowl of the food processor, add 179.3 g of flour, 3.2 g of salt, 3.8 g of sugar, and 0.9 g of IDY.

- In a container that's easy to pour with, mix together 91.2 g of water, 0.72 g of olive oil, and 6.45 g of vegetable (soybean).  Heat in microwave until warm.

- Turn on food processor to mix the dry ingredients, and slowly add all of the water & oil mixture,  Stop the food processor once a ball has formed.

- Put dough in fridge for approximately 48 hours.

[Sauce Preparation, the night before Pizza Day]

- Take 1 can of Franco's Crushed Tomatoes and strain it well.

- Put oregano and cinnamon in a small container, moisten with water (not enough to have standing water though), and then microwave on 30% power for 2 minutes to denature the proteins and help release the goodness. 

- Let this cool and then mix into your tomatoes to create the sauce.

- May wish to add salt or sugar to taste.

- Leave the sauce in the fridge overnight.

[On Pizza Day]

- Transfer dough to floured counter and cover with plastic wrap and allow to warm to room temperature for 1 hour.

- Liberally oil the 12" pizza pan with canola oil. 

- Press dough out into the pizza pan.

- Allow dough to rise at room temp in the pan for an hour and 40 minutes.   Start pre-heating the oven at 500F about an hour into
  this dough rising process.

- After the hour and 40 are up, transfer pan with dough to top of preheating oven, for about more 20 minutes of rising.

- Apply sauce all the way to the edge, followed by toppings.

- Apply 50:30:20 blend (mozzarella / orange cheddar / provolone) of cheese, right to the edge.

- Cook for 10 minutes on a stone on the bottom rack in the 500 degree oven. 

- At the 10 minute mark, increase the temperature to 550 for 5 minutes or so to encourage top browning.


[Things To Test]

- Using a high temperature heat gun on the cheese after baking to create a 'cheese crust'.

- Adding parmesan cheese powder to the top after baking and hitting it with a heat gun

[Ev]

I've never hears of using a heat gun to finish a pizza. Do you have any pictures of a finished pizza?

[CDNpielover]

I've never hears of using a heat gun to finish a pizza. Do you have any pictures of a finished pizza?

The heat gun was just a wild guess at how they might get the crust on the cheese.  there is a photo here http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CyDyLLXomqo/TgOlyQDmF3I/AAAAAAAAALw/jnjPUR0P32Q/s1600/Atlas4.JPG  any ideas on how they do that?  it might be hard to see if you've never had it before, but there is a crispy crust of cooked/dried (but not burned) cheese on top of the pizza.  under that is normal melted gooey cheese

[Ev]

That's really strange but in a good way. I have no idea how to do that but I'd sure like to try a slice!

[cmyden]

That's really strange but in a good way. I have no idea how to do that but I'd sure like to try a slice!

I've been trying to figure out this piece of the puzzle for a while, as far as I know it's just a standard pizza oven they're using, and I'm pretty sure I'm using the same cheese as them.

I've ordered a heat gun, and will report back with the results after testing.  Needed one anyways, I've heard they can be useful for other things in the kitchen (creme brulee, crispy chicken, etc).

[CDNpielover]

with the heat gun, i would just be careful to not burn it.  their cheese crust is brown I guess, but it's not very dark.  you almost want to try and fry the cheese, if that's possible somehow