Author Topic: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture  (Read 2864 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tony Pizzeria

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Arizona
Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« on: July 18, 2008, 02:54:55 PM »
Ok heres my question, lets say I use a Lehmans  pizza recipe but I want to add a culture to it, to give it more flavor, how much should I cut back on the hydration or in fact any other of the ingredients.
CIAO BABY


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 03:41:02 PM »
Pizzeria Tony,

When I originally experimented with the Lehmann NY dough formulation using starters/preferments, I did all of the math and all of the adjustments to the values of quantities of ingredients by hand. Since I was experimenting, I didn't try for absolute precision.

These days, I use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. There are a few key inputs you need to use that tool. The first is how much starter/preferment you want to use. This can be stated in relation to either 1) the weight of the formula flour, 2) the weight of the formula water, or 3) the total dough weight. Different people use different ones of these methods, either out of personal preference or because they already have or can calculate the numbers for the selected method. I typically use a starter/preferment in relation to the weight of flour. A typical percent I use for a preferment application is 15-25%, depending on the strength and readiness of the starter/preferment that I will be using. The second key piece of information that you will need for the tool is the amount of water in the starter/preferment as a percent of the total weight of the starter/preferment. Usually, that number is determined by knowing how much flour and water (by weight) are used to regularly refresh a particular starter culture. As an example, Bill/SFNM refreshes his starter culture in such a way that it is 54% flour and 46% water by weight. Ed Wood, in the Appendix (pages 200, 201) of his book Classic Sourdoughs gives representative flour/water quantities for "liquid" (48/52:flour/water) and "sponge" (65/35:flour/water) cultures. These work reasonably well. I believe the rest of the inputs required by the tool are fairly self-explanatory.

Unfortunately, the tool is not designed to work with strictly volume measurements. However, I have discovered that one doesn't have to be 100% correct with the starter composition. Most doughs will tolerate some variation without incident. You can also make minor adjustment to flour and water in the mixer bowl.

I have used the preferment dough calculating tool many times, under several different scenarios, and have yet to experience a failure that I could attribute to the tool. For more detail on the tool and how it works, you can click on the link "click here" at the page referenced above. If you have any questions about using the tool, maybe I can help answer them.

Peter

Offline Tony Pizzeria

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 05:42:31 PM »
Thanks again Pete I appreciate your expertise.
CIAO BABY

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 06:19:05 PM »
Tony Pizzeria,

I sense some hesitancy on your part. Maybe a simple example will help you navigate the preferment dough calculating tool.

Assume that you want to make a preferment version of the Lehmann NY dough formulation to make a single 12" pizza with a thickness factor of 0.105. Assume also that you want to use your preferment at 20% of the weight of the formula flour, and that your preferment is 45% water by weight. Plugging these numbers into the tool, along with a typical hydration of 62%, 1.75% salt, and 1% oil, the tool produces the following:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (164.75%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Total:

209.46 g  |  7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
129.86 g  |  4.58 oz | 0.29 lbs
3.67 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
345.08 g | 12.17 oz | 0.76 lbs | TF = 0.107625
 
 
23.04 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs
18.85 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs
41.89 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs

 
186.42 g | 6.58 oz | 0.41 lbs
111.01 g | 3.92 oz | 0.24 lbs
3.67 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
41.89 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
345.08 g | 12.17 oz | 0.76 lbs  | TF = 0.107625
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

In the above tabulation, the Total Formula is the basic Lehmann NY dough formulation but no commercial yeast. The yeast will be replaced by the preferment. The Preferment part of the above tabulation shows the flour/water breakdown of the preferment. The Final Dough part of the tabulation shows all of the ingredients that you will use with the preferment to prepare the Final Dough that is to be fermented. Some people like to use some commercial yeast along with their preferment. The tool can be used to add that commercial yeast as part of the Final Dough. The tool will also allow you to use some sugar in the Final Dough if you would like. As you may know, sugar is optional with the basic Lehmann dough formulation.

You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%. That is to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. Normally, for a standard Lehmann dough, with only commercial yeast, I would use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. But, with a wet preferment where things can get rather sticky, I usually use something around 2.5%.

It took me all of 30 seconds to produce the above tabulation. It took me a lot longer to compose this reply.

Peter

Offline Tony Pizzeria

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 83
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 11:37:15 PM »
No hesitancy just asking a question, sorry if you thought that.  Just trying  to make a good pizza.
CIAO BABY

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 11:39:54 AM »
Tony,

It's not a problem. I thought it might be helpful to someone if I gave a simple example and put some meat on the bones of my earlier comments in Reply 1.

Peter

Offline koloa101

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 113
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2009, 01:07:08 PM »
hi Peter,
i am experimenting today with using my first culture from ed wood. question about what i need to put in the preferments % of water field,

i am using a liquid culture that is ~5 ounces(~1C) of flour and 6 ounces(3/4C) of water. i then added 1 cup flour and 1/2 cup water to activate it.

so now the preferment is 2 cups flour to 1.25 cup water. so thats ~10oz flour to 10oz water. now i must divide weight of water by weight of preferment. so thats 10oz/20oz = 2 * 100 = 200?

does that seem right? thanks!

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    260.82 g  |  9.2 oz | 0.57 lbs
Water (65%):    169.53 g  |  5.98 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt (2%):    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (2%):    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total (169%):   440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = 0.101

Preferment:
Flour:    -78.24 g | -2.76 oz | -0.17 lbs
Water:    156.49 g | 5.52 oz | 0.34 lbs
Total:    78.24 g | 2.76 oz | 0.17 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    339.06 g | 11.96 oz | 0.75 lbs
Water:    13.04 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs
Salt:    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Preferment:    78.24 g | 2.76 oz | 0.17 lbs
Oil:    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total:    440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs  | TF = 0.101

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2009, 01:27:33 PM »
koloa101,

If you are using 10 ounces of water and 20 ounces of flour, both by weight, then the number you are after is 10/20 = 0.5. That is 50% (0.5 x 100 = 50%). The number you enter into the tool is 50. Remember, also, that you have to decide how much starter culture or preferment you want to use in relation to either the weight of the formula flour, the weight of the formula water, or the total dough weight. In the earlier example I gave for Pizzeria Tony, it was with respect to the formula flour.

Peter

Offline koloa101

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 113
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 01:50:17 PM »
hi peter, thanks for the speedy reply!

ive read somewhere here but i can not find the post anymore, that some folks have good outcomes with 20-30% of preferment in the dough. does that sound too much?


ahh yes, i see now the correct is 10oz/20oz  = 50. thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 03:19:15 PM »
ive read somewhere here but i can not find the post anymore, that some folks have good outcomes with 20-30% of preferment in the dough. does that sound too much?


koloa101,

Often preferments are used to make bread dough and, in such cases, it would not be unusual to see preferment quantities of 30-40% and more, expressed as a percent of the total formula flour. I have used as much as 25% for pizza dough but usually because of the lethargic nature of my starter culture. My most common usage is 15-20% of the total formula flour, except in those cases where I would be making a classic Neapolitan style dough where the starter culture is used only for leavening purposes. In these cases, the use would be 1-5% of the formula water. That is the Marco method.

Once you start getting to preferment levels in the double digits, you start to get other attributes in the dough including high acid levels and structural effects on the gluten structure.

Peter


Offline jvp123

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 164
  • Location: Los Angeles, California
  • Learning and loving it!
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2014, 09:01:54 PM »
koloa101,

Often preferments are used to make bread dough and, in such cases, it would not be unusual to see preferment quantities of 30-40% and more, expressed as a percent of the total formula flour. I have used as much as 25% for pizza dough but usually because of the lethargic nature of my starter culture. My most common usage is 15-20% of the total formula flour, except in those cases where I would be making a classic Neapolitan style dough where the starter culture is used only for leavening purposes. In these cases, the use would be 1-5% of the formula water. That is the Marco method.

Once you start getting to preferment levels in the double digits, you start to get other attributes in the dough including high acid levels and structural effects on the gluten structure.

Peter

You say 15-20% is your usual amount, but would you use a much lower % of preferment if you were doing, let's say, a 48 hour room temp proof - like 1.5-3% like Craig uses or is that because he makes different types of pizzas?
Jeff

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 618
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 09:40:53 PM »
If you were making a 48 hour dough using preferment, then, YES, you would need to cut back to 1% to 3% and not use 15%- 20%.  Doesn't matter whatever the label of pizza type may be, the fermentation schedule and the amount of preferment need to be synchronized.

Note: I love that this thread, born in the NY Style forum, has come back alive on this fine day.  We may, however, want to move it to the Other forum to keep the breadsticks company.......  >:D  I am not sure if we can handle another thread about preferments in the NY Style forum.   8)

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 10:07:43 PM »

I am not sure if we can handle another thread about preferments in the NY Style forum.   8)


 :-D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline jvp123

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 164
  • Location: Los Angeles, California
  • Learning and loving it!
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 10:19:40 PM »
If you were making a 48 hour dough using preferment, then, YES, you would need to cut back to 1% to 3% and not use 15%- 20%.  Doesn't matter whatever the label of pizza type may be, the fermentation schedule and the amount of preferment need to be synchronized.

Note: I love that this thread, born in the NY Style forum, has come back alive on this fine day.  We may, however, want to move it to the Other forum to keep the breadsticks company.......  >:D  I am not sure if we can handle another thread about preferments in the NY Style forum.   8)

Ha ha

i was just thinking (inwardly as a newbie) that I picked a funny moment to be experimenting with this!  :-D.  I had just created a starter and until I got my Blackstone I wanted to try it out.  I thought I'll just put it into the IDY NY style pizzas I've been making and see how it tastes.  I didn't realize I had to call it something else or what I would even call it.  I just though NY "style" would be enough.  "Style" sort of implying it was "like" something similar to a NY pizza I may have had before.

I have eaten all sorts of NY "style" pies (old, new, street, boutique, whatever) and lived in NYC for many years.  Since I am new to making pizzas (a long time serious cook though) I had no idea what the ingredients or techniques were. I did know a place like Johns on Bleeker used a coal oven and i liked the taste many years ago (now not so much). I didn't know it wasn't NY style (was it "coal" style NY?).  That said, it was different than the pizza Scott is referring to (I think) which is more like the deck oven pies you can get all over town.  Some of those can be really good too.  There was one by NYU that I used to go to over 20 years ago after parties that I loved and it was a straight up NYC IDY deck pie.  Foldable and delicious with tangy sauce, oregano etc.
Anyway, for me its more about a general style that could be any of those things but it's obviously different than NP or Scicilian etc. 
Scott is very clear in saying NY Style CANNOT HAVE SD.  OK I get that.  But I think the definition of NY style could be a bit broader and looser.  Thats just me. There is no official committee that has rules about it that I know of (YET).  I guess I am not a purist as that is a slippery slope with NY style.

Again as a newbie I am steering clear of THAT freight train over there and let you guys who have been around longer than me debate that one.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 10:21:40 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2014, 11:01:23 AM »
Jeff,

What Mitch said is correct. If you decide to go with a much lower amount of natural starter, you should use one of Craig's tools.

In your resurrection of this thread, I suspected that you might incite another riot :-D. In this vein, I was reminded of the old Abbott and Costello bit about the Susquehanna Hat Company. In this YouTube video, as you watch it, just substitute Sourdough NY Style Pizza for each mention of the Susquehanna Hat Company to other people in the video  :-D:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THZV5g1CNZM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THZV5g1CNZM</a>


Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 02:21:56 PM »

In your resurrection of this thread, I suspected that you might incite another riot :-D. In this vein, I was reminded of the old Abbott and Costello bit about the Susquehanna Hat Company. In this YouTube video, as you watch it, just substitute Sourdough NY Style Pizza for each mention of the Susquehanna Hat Company to other people in the video  :-D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THZV5g1CNZM

Peter


Peter,

I think it was wonder you did not incite a riot when you tried a natural starter in the NY style Lehmann dough when you tried it.  I guess my try was one too many.

Maybe Nikola Tesla vs Thomas Edison

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1Mz7kGVf0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1Mz7kGVf0</a>
 

Lol about your video.  :-D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 618
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 04:00:38 PM »
Peter and Norma, the videos are perfect.  This also brought to mind Niagara Falls - slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch..........Niagara Falls!  Every time I hear that word it tears me apart.   :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-A9c6VNeRQ


I am thinking my next NY Style pizza will be a Susquehanna Special.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 05:47:46 PM »
Mitch,

That was perfect. I laughed as hard as that video as the others :-D.

Peter