Author Topic: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture  (Read 2644 times)

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Offline Tony Pizzeria

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Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« on: July 18, 2008, 02:54:55 PM »
Ok heres my question, lets say I use a Lehmans  pizza recipe but I want to add a culture to it, to give it more flavor, how much should I cut back on the hydration or in fact any other of the ingredients.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 02:58:05 PM by Tony Pizzeria »
CIAO BABY


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 03:41:02 PM »
Pizzeria Tony,

When I originally experimented with the Lehmann NY dough formulation using starters/preferments, I did all of the math and all of the adjustments to the values of quantities of ingredients by hand. Since I was experimenting, I didn't try for absolute precision.

These days, I use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. There are a few key inputs you need to use that tool. The first is how much starter/preferment you want to use. This can be stated in relation to either 1) the weight of the formula flour, 2) the weight of the formula water, or 3) the total dough weight. Different people use different ones of these methods, either out of personal preference or because they already have or can calculate the numbers for the selected method. I typically use a starter/preferment in relation to the weight of flour. A typical percent I use for a preferment application is 15-25%, depending on the strength and readiness of the starter/preferment that I will be using. The second key piece of information that you will need for the tool is the amount of water in the starter/preferment as a percent of the total weight of the starter/preferment. Usually, that number is determined by knowing how much flour and water (by weight) are used to regularly refresh a particular starter culture. As an example, Bill/SFNM refreshes his starter culture in such a way that it is 54% flour and 46% water by weight. Ed Wood, in the Appendix (pages 200, 201) of his book Classic Sourdoughs gives representative flour/water quantities for "liquid" (48/52:flour/water) and "sponge" (65/35:flour/water) cultures. These work reasonably well. I believe the rest of the inputs required by the tool are fairly self-explanatory.

Unfortunately, the tool is not designed to work with strictly volume measurements. However, I have discovered that one doesn't have to be 100% correct with the starter composition. Most doughs will tolerate some variation without incident. You can also make minor adjustment to flour and water in the mixer bowl.

I have used the preferment dough calculating tool many times, under several different scenarios, and have yet to experience a failure that I could attribute to the tool. For more detail on the tool and how it works, you can click on the link "click here" at the page referenced above. If you have any questions about using the tool, maybe I can help answer them.

Peter

Offline Tony Pizzeria

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 05:42:31 PM »
Thanks again Pete I appreciate your expertise.
CIAO BABY

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 06:19:05 PM »
Tony Pizzeria,

I sense some hesitancy on your part. Maybe a simple example will help you navigate the preferment dough calculating tool.

Assume that you want to make a preferment version of the Lehmann NY dough formulation to make a single 12" pizza with a thickness factor of 0.105. Assume also that you want to use your preferment at 20% of the weight of the formula flour, and that your preferment is 45% water by weight. Plugging these numbers into the tool, along with a typical hydration of 62%, 1.75% salt, and 1% oil, the tool produces the following:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (164.75%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Total:

209.46 g  |  7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
129.86 g  |  4.58 oz | 0.29 lbs
3.67 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
345.08 g | 12.17 oz | 0.76 lbs | TF = 0.107625
 
 
23.04 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs
18.85 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs
41.89 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs

 
186.42 g | 6.58 oz | 0.41 lbs
111.01 g | 3.92 oz | 0.24 lbs
3.67 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
41.89 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
345.08 g | 12.17 oz | 0.76 lbs  | TF = 0.107625
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

In the above tabulation, the Total Formula is the basic Lehmann NY dough formulation but no commercial yeast. The yeast will be replaced by the preferment. The Preferment part of the above tabulation shows the flour/water breakdown of the preferment. The Final Dough part of the tabulation shows all of the ingredients that you will use with the preferment to prepare the Final Dough that is to be fermented. Some people like to use some commercial yeast along with their preferment. The tool can be used to add that commercial yeast as part of the Final Dough. The tool will also allow you to use some sugar in the Final Dough if you would like. As you may know, sugar is optional with the basic Lehmann dough formulation.

You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%. That is to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. Normally, for a standard Lehmann dough, with only commercial yeast, I would use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. But, with a wet preferment where things can get rather sticky, I usually use something around 2.5%.

It took me all of 30 seconds to produce the above tabulation. It took me a lot longer to compose this reply.

Peter

Offline Tony Pizzeria

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 11:37:15 PM »
No hesitancy just asking a question, sorry if you thought that.  Just trying  to make a good pizza.
CIAO BABY

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 11:39:54 AM »
Tony,

It's not a problem. I thought it might be helpful to someone if I gave a simple example and put some meat on the bones of my earlier comments in Reply 1.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2009, 01:07:08 PM »
hi Peter,
i am experimenting today with using my first culture from ed wood. question about what i need to put in the preferments % of water field,

i am using a liquid culture that is ~5 ounces(~1C) of flour and 6 ounces(3/4C) of water. i then added 1 cup flour and 1/2 cup water to activate it.

so now the preferment is 2 cups flour to 1.25 cup water. so thats ~10oz flour to 10oz water. now i must divide weight of water by weight of preferment. so thats 10oz/20oz = 2 * 100 = 200?

does that seem right? thanks!

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    260.82 g  |  9.2 oz | 0.57 lbs
Water (65%):    169.53 g  |  5.98 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt (2%):    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (2%):    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total (169%):   440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = 0.101

Preferment:
Flour:    -78.24 g | -2.76 oz | -0.17 lbs
Water:    156.49 g | 5.52 oz | 0.34 lbs
Total:    78.24 g | 2.76 oz | 0.17 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    339.06 g | 11.96 oz | 0.75 lbs
Water:    13.04 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs
Salt:    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Preferment:    78.24 g | 2.76 oz | 0.17 lbs
Oil:    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total:    440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs  | TF = 0.101

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2009, 01:27:33 PM »
koloa101,

If you are using 10 ounces of water and 20 ounces of flour, both by weight, then the number you are after is 10/20 = 0.5. That is 50% (0.5 x 100 = 50%). The number you enter into the tool is 50. Remember, also, that you have to decide how much starter culture or preferment you want to use in relation to either the weight of the formula flour, the weight of the formula water, or the total dough weight. In the earlier example I gave for Pizzeria Tony, it was with respect to the formula flour.

Peter

Offline koloa101

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 01:50:17 PM »
hi peter, thanks for the speedy reply!

ive read somewhere here but i can not find the post anymore, that some folks have good outcomes with 20-30% of preferment in the dough. does that sound too much?


ahh yes, i see now the correct is 10oz/20oz  = 50. thanks!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehamnn's NY Dough with a culture
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 03:19:15 PM »
ive read somewhere here but i can not find the post anymore, that some folks have good outcomes with 20-30% of preferment in the dough. does that sound too much?


koloa101,

Often preferments are used to make bread dough and, in such cases, it would not be unusual to see preferment quantities of 30-40% and more, expressed as a percent of the total formula flour. I have used as much as 25% for pizza dough but usually because of the lethargic nature of my starter culture. My most common usage is 15-20% of the total formula flour, except in those cases where I would be making a classic Neapolitan style dough where the starter culture is used only for leavening purposes. In these cases, the use would be 1-5% of the formula water. That is the Marco method.

Once you start getting to preferment levels in the double digits, you start to get other attributes in the dough including high acid levels and structural effects on the gluten structure.

Peter