Author Topic: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies  (Read 7828 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« on: September 14, 2008, 02:52:40 PM »
I made a couple of very tasty pies last night. They reminded me of a combination of Joe's at Bleecker & Carmine  and DiFara. This was my first time using the Ischia starter and I have to say, I like it very much. Both pies have fresh homemade sausage with lots of fennel and oven roasted shallots. I finished both pies with fresh basil and a 50/50 blend of parmigiano reggiano and pecorino romano.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 05:11:29 PM by tdeane »


Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2008, 02:56:12 PM »
The 2nd pie.

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2008, 06:48:30 PM »
    OK, now for the details. I used Canadian bread flour which is very high in protein. I believe it's over 13%. The overall hydration of the dough was 62% and I used a 310g ball for a 12" pie. I used the Ischia starter as a poolish. I made the dough on Thursday evening, put it in the fridge and used it on Saturday. I took it out of the fridge a couple of hours before I made the pies. Crust was very crispy but was still tender and had a nice pull. The slices were very foldable. I can give the exact recipe if anyone wants.
    The sauce was made with 2 cans of Canadian grown, organic, peeled plum tomatoes. I drained them and squeezed the juice and seeds and juice into the bowl with the reserved juice from the can. I strained the juice and set aside. I pulsed the meat of the tomato in a food processor, put it in a bowl and added some of the juice until I got the consistency I wanted. I added kosher salt, parmigiano reggiano, fresh basil, just a little oregano and a little sugar(the tomatoes weren't quite sweet enough). Of course I don't cook the sauce.
    I found a nice brand of whole milk, low moisture aged mozzarella called Silani that I used . I really liked the way it melted and it had a great flavor. Usually I use some fior di latte as well but I didn't on these 2 pies. I made the sausage a day ahead and let it sit in the fridge so the flavors could come together. Lean ground pork with, fennel seed, paprika, red chili flakes, kosher salt, minced garlic and a little thyme. I use a lot more fennel than most people do because I love it. I put it on the pizza raw and kind of squeeze it into mini patties as I'm putting it on the pizza. For the shallots, I just peeled them, tossed them in some olive oil and put them on a baking pan. Into the oven at 375 degrees until they start to turn brown. Let them cool and then slice them.  I give the pie a generous drizzle of good olive oil before baking. When they come out of the oven I scissor some fresh basil on the pizza and sprinkle with a nice handful of parmigiano reggiano or pecorino romano. This time I tried a 50/50 blend of the two. It was nice and I might stick with that.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21165
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2008, 07:01:56 PM »
I can give the exact recipe if anyone wants.

tdeane,

I would like to see the dough recipe. Also, what brand of flour did you use, and how did you bake the pizzas, including oven temperature and times?

Thanks.

Peter

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2008, 08:16:03 PM »
tdeane,

I would like to see the dough recipe. Also, what brand of flour did you use, and how did you bake the pizzas, including oven temperature and times?

Thanks.

Peter

  Sure Peter. I used Robin Hood bread flour which is higher in protein than just about any other bread flour you can get. In the future I plan to use a blend of that and some Caputo 00. I have some on oreder as well as some General Mills high gluten flour just to experiment with. I baked the pizzas on a rectangular, ceramic stone in my regular oven which has a top temp of 500. I preheated it for about an hour or so. That is my biggest problem right now, the oven. I have the money now to buy a countertop deck oven and am considering the Nemco 6205. It reaches 700 degrees and is supposed to be good at maintaining that temp even with high volume.
   Flour- 740g
   Water-445g
   Kosher Salt-23.19g
   IDY-1.93g
   preferment(poolish)-70g

  I mixed the water, 75% of the flour and starter(poolish) in my kithen aid mixer bowl with a spoon for a minute or two. I let rest for 20-25 minutes covered with a tea towel. Then I added the IDY, the salt and begin mixing with the dough hook on low for about 4 or 5 minutes. At that point I began adding the rest of the flour and increased the speed by one on my mixer. I mixed for about 12-15 minutes total. I let it rest for another 15-20 minutes before pouring on to my floured cutting board where I cut it into 310g balls. I put the dough balls into very, very lightly oiled glad containers and then into the fridge. That recipe was for four dough balls.
  I don't really know the bake time. I am more of a "feel" guy. I usually rotate the pie once during baking and just go by feel as to when it's done. Did I forget anything?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 08:17:37 PM by tdeane »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21165
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2008, 08:58:36 PM »
tdeane,

Thanks for the additional information. But for the oven temperatures/bake times, it looks like you are following the Jeff Varasano "method" or something quite similar.

Is the Robin Hood bread flour you are using the one shown here: http://www.robinhood.ca/product.details.asp?pid=21&prodcid=9 ? Have you tried the Five Roses flour? It is considered an all-purpose flour but has a protein content of 13% (according to a customer service rep I spoke with at Smucker's, the corporate owner of Robin Hood and Five Roses).

Originally, I thought that perhaps the 375-degree temperature was Celsius rather than Fahrenheit. Is there a reason why you didn't bake the pizzas at 500 degrees F?

I assume that the overall hydration of 62% that you mentioned includes the effects of the hydration of the poolish. Is that correct? Also, technically, a "poolish" is elaborated by equal weights of flour and water. Is your "poolish" of 70 grams made up of 35 grams of water and 35 grams of flour, or is it some other ratio?

Peter

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2008, 09:09:44 PM »
I baked at 500 not 375. The 375 was for the roasted shallots.  The overall hydration is taking into consideration the poolish, of course. That is the flour I used. Both Robin Hood and Five Roses AP flour have the same protein. The Robin Hood best for bread flour has even more.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 09:11:16 PM by tdeane »

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2008, 09:18:55 PM »
Also, my method is very similiar to Jeff Varasano's method but is something I have been doing even before I came across his website. I learned a lot from a baker I worked with in a restaurant once and from a few other bread websites. Jeff Varasano's site has definitely helped as well. I learned how to make baguettes from a French baker but Jeff's site defintely helped apply that knowledge to pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21165
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2008, 09:45:06 PM »
tdeane,

For fun, I ran your numbers through the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. For purposes of using that tool, I assumed a true poolish at a rate of 9.03225% (70/775) of the formula flour. I also assumed that your Kosher salt is the Morton's brand. It later occurred to me that in Canada you might be using the Windsor brand, which might slightly change the numbers in the dough formulation given below.

If my math is correct, I got the following:

Total Formula:
Robin Hood Bread Flour (100%):
Water (61.9355%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.99225%):
IDY (0.24903%):
Total (165.17678%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

775 g  |  27.34 oz | 1.71 lbs
480 g  |  16.93 oz | 1.06 lbs
23.19 g | 0.82 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.83 tsp | 1.61 tbsp
1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
1280.12 g | 45.15 oz | 2.82 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs
70 g | 2.47 oz | 0.15 lbs

 
740 g | 26.1 oz | 1.63 lbs
445 g | 15.7 oz | 0.98 lbs
23.19 g | 0.82 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.83 tsp | 1.61 tbsp
1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
70 g | 2.47 oz | 0.15 lbs
1280.12 g | 45.15 oz | 2.82 lbs  | TF = N/A

I also calculated a thickness factor for your dough skin (310 grams for a 12" pizza) of 0.09668.

Peter

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2008, 09:50:23 PM »
I use Diamond Crystal kosher salt and I would say that the pizzas were a little thinner than that.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21165
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2008, 09:57:14 PM »
tdeane,

This is the Diamond Crystal version:

Total Formula:
Robin Hood Bread Flour (100%):
Water (61.9355%):
Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt (2.99225%):
IDY (0.24903%):
Total (165.17678%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

775 g  |  27.34 oz | 1.71 lbs
480 g  |  16.93 oz | 1.06 lbs
23.19 g | 0.82 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.82 tsp | 2.27 tbsp
1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
1280.12 g | 45.15 oz | 2.82 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs
70 g | 2.47 oz | 0.15 lbs

 
740 g | 26.1 oz | 1.63 lbs
445 g | 15.7 oz | 0.98 lbs
23.19 g | 0.82 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.82 tsp | 2.27 tbsp
1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
70 g | 2.47 oz | 0.15 lbs
1280.12 g | 45.15 oz | 2.82 lbs  | TF = N/A

When I use the preferment dough calculating tool, I usually use a bowl residue compensation of around 1.5-2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. I did not use that compensation for your dough formulation.

Peter

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2008, 10:13:17 PM »
I don't usually compensate for residue but I probably should. I sometimes end up with dough balls that are slightly under but like I said, I am a feel guy. Try that recipe Peter, I'd be interested in your opinion.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21165
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2008, 10:29:49 PM »
tdeane,

When I have my dormant Ischia culture out and refreshed sometime, I will try your dough formulation. I would perhaps make a 14" pizza since that is the largest my pizza stone can accommodate. To make anything bigger than that, I would have to use a combination of a pizza screen (e.g., 16" or 18") and my pizza stone.

For a single 14" pizza, using the Morton's brand of Kosher salt (I can't find the Diamond Crystal brand around where I live) and a bowl residue compensation of 2%, the dough formulation would look like this:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (61.9355%):
Salt (2.99225%):
IDY (0.24903%):
Total (165.17678%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

260.56 g  |  9.19 oz | 0.57 lbs
161.38 g  |  5.69 oz | 0.36 lbs
7.8 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.62 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
430.38 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = 0.0986177
 
 
11.77 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs
11.77 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs
23.53 g | 0.83 oz | 0.05 lbs

 
248.79 g | 8.78 oz | 0.55 lbs
149.61 g | 5.28 oz | 0.33 lbs
7.8 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.62 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
23.53 g | 0.83 oz | 0.05 lbs
430.38 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs  | TF = 0.0986177
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.0966844; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Maybe in the meantime others can try out your dough formulation.

Peter





Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2008, 11:10:25 PM »
Peter & Tdeane,

It sounds like a very good recipe!

The only problem I see is that I'd be baking it in the LBE. If any of you could adjust it to a high-temp environment, I'd be happy to give it a shot.

Aren't NYC pies supposed to be baked under high-temp conditions in the first place, such as in a coal-fired oven, for example?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2008, 11:28:43 PM »
Most NY pies are baked at about 650 degrees but the coal oven places bake around 800. No adjustments are needed to bake at a higher temp. I am aiming for about a 700 degree bake but over 800 I would increase the hydration to around 65%. That's just me but I am a little less scientific than a lot of people on this site.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 11:30:54 PM by tdeane »

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 11:37:49 PM »
TD,

I'm by no means a chemist, but I do know that dough formulas/recipes designed for a home oven react or perform differently when use in a high-temp environment.  ???  I'll use your suggestion and will increase the hydration to somewhere around 65%.

If no other adjustments are needed, then I'll bake it as posted at around 800 F. Can't wait to make an authentic NY style pizza!  :chef:
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3263
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 11:40:02 PM »
TDeane,

I forgot to ask, what kind of cheese do you recommend?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 07:44:34 AM »
The higher hydration will help keep the dough from burning at the higher temperature. If I were using a deck oven at 650-700 I wouldn't change anything but over 800 I would. An authentic  NY walk in slice type pie would be cooked at 650-700 and the coal oven type would be over 800 and of course, in a coal oven. The cheese I used was a whole milk low moisture aged mozzarella. If I were in the US I would use the Grande brand.

Offline tdeane

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 486
  • Age: 42
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
    • Pizzeria Barbarella
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 09:07:55 PM »
Well it looks like I might be buying a pizzeria in my home town in British Columbia. It's about 45 minute drive from downtown Vancouver. All the pizza there is rubbery "2 for 1" pizza with bologna like cold cuts on it.  I hope they are ready for good NY style pizza. The place has a Garland triple deck gas oven which should work fine. My plan is to use really good, authentic ingredients like Ezzo pepperoni, Grande whole milk mozzarella, Parmigiano Reggiano and I'm going to start growing my own basil and oregano. I am pretty excited about it and I really hope it works out.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21165
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A couple of tasty DiFara like pies
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 09:41:01 PM »
tdeane,

That sounds exciting, and I wish you the best should you consummate the transaction.

Have you decided on a dough formulation yet?

Peter