Author Topic: 1st hand made dough  (Read 2965 times)

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Offline bbqnpizza

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1st hand made dough
« on: November 03, 2008, 01:36:20 PM »
While this isn't my first post at PMF, yesterday was my first attempt at making pizza dough.  Previously I used store bought Trader Joes, or Win Co dough.  Each dough produced different results, and Sat. TJs dough was just not as good as normal, so I decided it was time to learn how to make my own dough.

So off to the store for flour,  my closest grocery store is Raley's, and unfortunately there was no high gluten flour to buy.  Although they had two KA flours they were 3% protein if I can recall correctly.  So I bought Stone-Buhr Unbleached White Flour for bread making, according to their website the flour has at least 12% protein.  Also grabbed a 3 pack of Fleischman's "rapid rise" highly active yeast.

Since this was my first time I wasn't sure if I just dump the yeast in with the other dry products, or put the yeast in 100deg water and allow the yeast to become active.  So I chose to do the warm water thing.

I also dissolved the kosher salt in the remainder of water and waited to the temp was about 110deg before adding to dry ingredients.

Again since I'm a novice I decided to use the sponge method of mixing in the dry ingredients, specifically mixing about 1/4-1/3 flour into the yeast water and let rest till it forms a bit of bubbly very liquid sponge.  After I got my initial goo sponge, I just went ahead and dumped the remaining flour and water in and started hand mixing.

Using the Dough Calc here at PMF for 2 14" pizzas.

Flour 19.51oz, 1.22lbs
Water 11.71oz / .73lbs
ADY .1oz / .73tsp
Salt .16oz /.92tsp
oil .23oz / 1.48 tsp
1ball 15.86oz / .99lbs

The desired result was a dough that would rise about 1.5-2" on outer crust edge, have those nice air pockets and just taste good.

I don't have a scale, and my measurements were not precise, however I did try to stick with formula and get close on each measurement.

After mixing and kneading the dough, I divided the dough and formed two dough balls and placed in lightly oiled ziplock (not sealed) and directly into the fridge overnight.  Should I have let the dough sit out and proof a bit before putting in the fridge?

The next day I allowed to proof or set for 2 to 3 hours in a warm area.  Since it was raining slightly no bbqnpizza instead the stone went into the oven and was between 500-550 deg.

Handling the dough to shape a pizza, the dough was great.  I had expected the dough to be a bit dry, it wasn't it was somewhat light and airy.  Shaping the pizza was the easiest I had ever experienced the dough didn't retract as much as either the TJs or Winco dough.   Most of the shaping was done on the peel (I don't have a peel really its a piece of walnut panel board, works great as a peel.).  Normally with the store dough, especially TJs dough I have to pick the dough up and stretch with the back of my hands because the dough won't shape laying down using the heal of my hands.  Also my dough didn't thin out in the middle as thin as the store dough, which was a result of picking the dough up and stretch with back of hands, the weight of the dough not on the hand would pull down and the center would be very thin if I wasn't careful.

I do most of my pizza cooking on my weber kettle with the stone temp at least 600+ and I get fairly consistent result.  However the kitchen oven procedures are not as dialed in so I get mixed results. On this cook, stone temp was 500 deg I hope, I gave the pizza one 90 deg turn after about 5 minutes of cooking.  The first thing I notice when cooking the outer crust was not rising like the store dough.
My typical oven procedure, is stone on the bottom rack, cook 5-6 min turn 90 deg, continue cooking until bottom is somewhat crisp about 3-4 min.  Move pizza to top rack under broiler and finish toppings about 1-1.5 minutes.

The final product, didn't hit my desired profile.  The rim crust was crisp and had crunch, but was not thick or poofed up as I wanted.  The outer rim inside was a bit dense.
The taste was decent but can be improved.

The big thing is I found making dough isn't hard. 

The picture shows a pie that was under broiler a tad too long.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:43:10 PM by bbqnpizza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2008, 02:34:50 PM »
bbqnpizza,

I have some thoughts on what you did but it would be helpful to have some additional information. Specifically:

1. How long did you let the "sponge" sit before adding the rest of the ingredients?

2. How long did you knead the dough?

3. Since you do not have a scale, how did you measure out the flour and water?

4. Do you know if the store bought doughs you have been using are frozen or defrosted and, in either case, can you list the ingredients given on the labels?

For your information, the Fleischmann's Rapid-Rise yeast is an instant dry yeast (IDY), not an active dry yeast (ADY) as called for in your dough recipe. However, the results shouldn't have changed materially even if you used the Fleischmann's yeast instead of IDY. There was no need to rehydrate the Fleischmann's yeast. You can add it directly to the flour.

The King Arthur flours have more than 3% protein. I suspect you meant 3 grams of protein for a 30-gram serving. The King Arthur all-purpose flour has a protein content of 11.7%, and the King Arthur bread flour has a protein content of 12.7%. Those are more correct numbers than calculating them from the information on the flour bags because of rounding factors used on the labels. You will not find high-gluten flour in supermarkets like Raley's. It is not a supermarket retail flour.

As far as proofing the dough before refrigerating is concerned, that is appropriate for a dough that is to be used the next day so long as the proof time is not long, for example, more than an hour or so. If the plan is to keep the dough in the refrigerator for more than a day before using, I would not proof the dough before refrigerating.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 02:17:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline bbqnpizza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2008, 06:57:38 PM »
bbqnpizza,
1. How long did you let the "sponge" sit before adding the rest of the ingredients?

2. How long did you knead the dough?

3. Since you do not have a scale, how did you measure out the flour and water?

4. Do you know if the store bought doughs you have been using are frozen or defrosted and, in either case, can you list the ingredients given on the labels?

King Arthur bread flour has a protein content of 12.7%.

As far as proofing the dough before refrigerating is concerned, that is appropriate for a dough that is to be used the next day so long as the proof time is not long, for example, more than an hour or so.

 If the plan is to keep the dough in the refrigerator for more than a day before using, I would not proof the dough before refrigerating.
Peter

1. The sponge approx.  15 - 20 minutes, I got impatient.
2. I kneaded the dough by feel, but about 8 minutes however not real vigorous, but I believe sufficient due to the texture later.
3. Measuring cup, flour not packed but shaken, I didn't level off, eye ball.  I know bakers want precision, and I realize the dough calculator is precise, so small differences can have an effect on the out come.
4.  Store bought are package dough in cold case not frozen. This is fresh dough, but can be several days old.  Sorry I don't have any labels.

I should have caught the KA flour protein thing since I looked at their web site prior to going to the store.  But in 30 years of marriage I think I have only bought 2 bags of flour, so I wasn't sure what to expect on the shelf.

Ok thats good to know about the proofing, thanks so much for taking the time to read and reply.

Judging from previous store bought dough, I am guessing here.  Most of the store bought I used during the summer avg. indoor temp 80 deg, very low humidity.  Sunday avg indoor temp was 70 and it rained on and off, so higher humidity.  The store dough when set on counter for 2-3 hours would rise 30 to 40%.  I used store dough on Saturday and it didn't rise as much nor did it rise as much after cooking. 
The first homemade dough I allowed to set on the counter covered for about 3 hours, and estimate the rise was only about 15-20%.
The 2nd homemade dough I cooked several hours later, the oven was warm I guess because the stone was still in there, so I put the dough covered on a rack above the stone.  I cooked this dough about 1 hour later, it has risen about 40%, the texture was great when shaping the pizza.  However the amount the crust rim rose was again only 3/4 to 1 ", or same as the dough cooked earlier.

I am thinking to try raising the amount of yeast slightly would get a better rise when cooking.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2008, 08:37:15 PM »
bbqnpizza,

To better analyze your recipe, I used the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html to convert your recipe to the following format:

Flour (100%):
Water (60.0205%):
ADY (0.51255%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (0.82009%):
Oil (1.17888%):
Total (162.53202%):
553.11 g  |  19.51 oz | 1.22 lbs
331.98 g  |  11.71 oz | 0.73 lbs
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
4.54 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
6.52 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
898.98 g | 31.71 oz | 1.98 lbs | TF = N/A

In lieu of using the above dough formulation, I suggest that you use the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.51255%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (0.82009%):
Oil (1.17888%):
Total (164.51152%):
557.38 g  |  19.66 oz | 1.23 lbs
345.58 g  |  12.19 oz | 0.76 lbs
2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
4.57 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
6.57 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
916.96 g | 32.34 oz | 2.02 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 2%

You will note several changes in the above formulation. First, I increased the hydration to 62% to be more in line with the type of flour (Stone-Buhr) that you are using. That should help produce a more open and airy crust and crumb and also make it easier to hand knead the dough (it should be softer). Second, I subtituted IDY for ADY, since what you have on hand is an instant dry yeast, but left the baker's percent alone. That increases the amount of yeast but should help produce a dough that rises faster. Third, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. I selected 2% because those dough losses tend to be higher for hand kneaded doughs than for machine kneaded doughs. With hand kneaded doughs, the dough can stick to just about everything.

Now, as to the enumerated items:

1) The "sponge" you used is not technically a sponge but I don't think that that was the source of your problem in any event. Nonetheless, I would be inclined to skip this step the next time, even if only to rule it out.

2) You made a dough batch weighing almost two pounds. For that amount of dough, 8 minutes of non-vigorous hand kneading may not have been enough. You don't want to overknead the dough but you want to develop the gluten structure to the point where it can efficiently retain the gases of fermentation and help contribute to a good oven spring when the pizza is put in the oven onto the pizza stone. It has been a while since I last hand kneaded almost two pounds of dough, but I would estimate that you may need about 12-15 minutes of hand kneading. If you'd like, you can even let the dough rest for a minute or two from time to time during the kneading process. That will improve hydration of the flour and make the dough relax and easier to knead.

3) It is possible that your method of measuring out the flour and water may have altered the hydration of the dough, and that may have been a contributing factor to the results you achieved. There is a handy tool at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ (on the left hand side) that can be used to convert weights of certain flours to volume measurements, and likewise for weights of water, but unfortunately the Stone-Buhr data is not in the database for the tool. However, should you decide to use the new dough formulation given above, I suggest using the volume data for the King Arthur bread flour as a proxy. Doing that, the volume quantities for the Stone-Buhr flour and water are as follows:

    Flour: 4 1/3 c.
    Water: 1 1/3 c. + 2 T.

It is important that the flour and water be measured out in a specific way. In this case, for the flour, you want to use the Textbook method of measuring out the flour as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397. In measuring out the water, you should view the level of water in your measuring cup at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface. Even with all of these precautionary measures, you may have to tweak the flour and water to get the desired condition of the finished dough. That is mainly because you are using a different flour than the King Arthur bread flour used as a proxy for your flour.

4. I asked about the store bought doughs because many such doughs are made frozen and allowed to defrost in the supermarket refrigerator case. If frozen, they normally include a high amount of yeast because freezing kills some of the yeast. A high amount of yeast might also be used to prolong the useful life of the dough if it is to be held in the refrigerator case for a few days. It's possible that the dough balls you have been buying have a fair amount of yeast left in them to contribute to a decent rise and oven spring. You can usually tell if a store bought dough has been frozen by looking at the label on the packaging (which is why I asked you about the ingredients). The yeast will usually be listed after the flour and water and before the salt and any other ingredients. If the dough is a fresh dough, the yeast will usually appear down toward the bottom of the ingredients list. It might even be the last ingredient listed.

In addition to the above comments, if you want to get a large rim, you should try to shape the dough skin to create that rim. This usually takes a certain amount of experience and practice, but it should come with time.

I believe I covered all of the points, but if I forgot anything or if you have any further questions, feel free to ask followup questions.

Peter



« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:58:32 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline bbqnpizza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2008, 03:56:09 AM »
Once again Pete-zza, your amazing with your in dept knowledgeable responses.

I will give the new quantities a try.

Offline bbqnpizza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 05:30:27 AM »
Since I started this thread I have made several dough balls, slightly changing either Pete-zza variation or my original.
Each attempt produced mixed results, all enjoyable but just not the right mix of flavors or texture.  The problem with both Pete-zza variation and mine was not enough water, the Stone-Buhr Unbleached White Flour absorbs a lot of water, if I followed the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator the result was a dry mix that was extremely hard to mix by hand. 

Tonight we had the best electric oven pizza yet.

Dough:
Flour (100%):    1.12lbs : 4 cups (3 cups Bhur's 1 Cup GM organic all-purpose used bread flour as source)
Water ():     1 cup, 1/3 cup, (about 1/4 cup extra)
IDY ():    1.0 tsp
Salt ():    0.90 tbsp
Oil ():    1.0 tbsp 

Flour was put in measure cup with tbsp and leveled off with knife.
Water was at 100-105 F.

My procedures for the dough were:
-Measure and put flour in mixing bowl, add Salt.
-Make empty circle in middle of flour.
-Pour 2/3 warm water in empty circle and add yeast.
-Start slowly mixing yeast with water, flour falls in and starts to create a watery paste.
-Check for bubbles to make sure yeast is activating.
-Slowly continue stir yeast and water mixture, more flour falls in.
-Add remaining water when paste like yeast mixture starts getting dry.
-Mix in this water with flour.
-At this point I switch from my finger doing the mixing to using rubber spatula, mixing all the flour in with yeast paste mixture.
In the past I would dump the unkneaded dough onto a floured surface and start kneading.
This time I used the spatula to turn and knead the dough in the mixing bowl.  This really worked well, the bowl surface with the wet dough stuck lightly.  This provided tension and I would fold the dough with the spatula (the side into the center).  I would slowly rotate the sticky dough around the bowl with the spatula folding as I went.  The more I turned the dough developed.

The end result was a moist sticky dough ball that had a texture similar to Trader Joes.  I could tell this was the best dough ball I had made yet.  I divided the ball into two equal balls, and allowed to sit 30 min, then placed in containers lightly coated with olive oil, next the dough went into the fridge.

Next day the dough had risen in the fridge.

I decided to cook up one late as a snack.

Sauce
1 can 6 in 1 Escalon crushed tomatoes
double pinch of dry oregano
1 pinch of dry basil
1 pinch of cracked red pepper
1 pinch of granulated garlic
1/2 tsp of kosher salt
5 or 6 cranks on pepper mill.
1 tsp of olive oil

I put all the dry ingredients into high speed mini blender, and blended until rough powder then added to tomatoes.  No cooking.

Toppings
Sauce
Fresh Mozzarella
A little Pepper Jack Cheese
Fresh Mushrooms sliced
Fresh sliced pepperoni

Cook time 11 min.
Cook Temp 500-550 F

The crust was close to what I wanted.  The rim was about 1.5 inch, was crisp on outside fresh bread taste, nice air pockets.  Bottom was crisp but not over cooked.
My two sons helped me eat the pie, and proclaimed this pizza was closest to restaurant quality yet.

The other dough ball plus a couple more will get a tryout in the weber kettle later this week.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 08:47:58 AM »
bbqnpizza,

If hydration is the problem, then you should be able to resolve that problem over time by making adjustments to the amounts of flour and water. However, without a scale, you will not know what hydration you are actually getting and you may not get consistent and reproducible dough balls as a result. Over time you may get the desired finished dough consistency, or some semblance of it, but it will take making a lot of dough balls.

It seems to me that your dough preparation method is somewhat unorthodox. I'd like to suggest the following method for preparing and hand kneading your dough:

1. If you have a sieve or hand crank sifter, sift the formula flour into a first bowl and add and stir in the IDY. (See Note 2 below if using ADY instead of IDY.) The IDY can also be sifted along with the flour if the openings of the sieve or sifter are large enough. Sifting the flour will improve the hydration of the flour by incorporating more water into the dough. Unlike ADY, it is not necessary to rehydrate the IDY in warm water. 

2. Put all of the formula water into a second bowl, add the salt, and stir until dissolved, about 30 seconds. When using IDY, it is not necessary to warm up the water (e.g., to around 105 degrees F). Using warm water will only increase the finished dough temperature and accelerate the fermentation of the dough and shorten its window of usability. The water can be cool or even cold right out of the refrigerator. Ideally, for a home refrigerator application, you want the finished dough temperature to be between 75-80 degrees F. Using cool/cold water should allow you to achieve a finished dough temperature in that range. A thermometer (e.g., an analog or digital instant read thermometer) will be required to measure the finished dough temperature.

3. Add the oil to the bowl with the water/salt mixture. Alternatively, the oil can be added after step 4 below and incorporated into the dough. (Some people feel that the oil interferes with the hydration of the flour if added to the water. On the other hand, adding the oil to the water disperses it more uniformly throughout the dough as it is kneaded into the dough.)

4. Gradually add the flour/yeast mixture to the water/salt mixture a few tablespoons at a time and, using a sturdy spoon, combine the ingredients until you can no longer stir more of the flour/yeast mixture into the dough mass with ease. If desired, a wire whisk can be used at the beginning to improve the hydration of the flour even more, and switch to the spoon when the whisk bogs down. If the oil was not added in step 3 above, add to the oil to the dough in the mixing bowl and knead into the dough.

5. Using a spatula or a flexible plastic bench knife, scrape the rough dough mass out of the mixing bowl onto a work surface that has been lightly dusted with a bit of the remaining flour/yeast mixture.

6. Sprinkle the remaining flour/yeast mixture a little bit at a time onto the dough mass and knead into the dough mass after each addition. To facilitate this process, use wet hands or hands dusted with a bit of the flour. It is also possible to use a bench knife, or even two of them for a large dough batch, to turn the dough mass as the remaining flour is added to the dough. For some guidance on how to use a bench knife to help knead the dough, see this video: http://www.monkeysee.com/play/997-pizza-how-to-make-dough-by-hand-part-two. If the dough is hard to knead for any reason, let the dough rest from time to time during the kneading process. This will allow the flour to better hydrate and will allow the gluten structure to relax and become less elastic, making it easier to knead the dough. 

7. Continue kneading until the dough is smooth and malleable yet a bit tacky. Resist the temptation to add more flour. As the hand kneading continues, the wetness of the dough should gradually diminish and disappear. If the dough really sticks to your fingers and to the work surface (the dough will usually pull away in strands as it is pulled away from the work surface), add additional flour, a quarter teaspoon or half teaspoon at a time, and knead into the dough with each such addition. If the dough is too dry, add more water, about a half teaspoon at a time, and knead to incorporate. If more flour and/or water are used in this manner, note the total amounts of each added. This might help you modify your dough formulation for future dough batches, especially if you use a scale to weigh the flour and water.

8. Another dough kneading method I often use, usually for fairly high-hydration doughs coming out of my stand mixer, but which can also be used as part of a hand kneading regimen, is the one shown in Images 4a-4c at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm.

Note 1: It is also possible to add the salt to the flour rather than to the water in the mixing bowl. The same also applies to sugar (if called for in the dough formulation). However, I prefer to add both salt and sugar to the water, which helps them dissolve faster and better. If honey is used in lieu of sugar, it can be added to the water in the mixing bowl or to the dough in the bowl as it is being mixed and kneaded. The honey can be warmed up slightly to make it flow better but that step is optional.

Note 2: If ADY is used instead of IDY, it should be rehydrated in a small amount of the formula water at about 105 degrees F for about 10-15 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the formula water or to the rest of the ingredients in the mixing bowl. If fresh (cake) yeast is used, it can either be rehydrated in tepid water (a portion of the formula water) at around 80-90 degrees F, or simply be crumbled into the mixing bowl.

Note 3: If weights of ingredients are used and one of the dough calculating tools is used, it is recommended that a bowl residue compensation of 1.5-2% be used in the tool to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

If you have an electric hand mixer, another kneading regimen that combines use of the electric hand mixer and hand kneading is described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489. You will note many of the steps suggested above are also incorporated in the procedures described in that post.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 08:45:50 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline bbqnpizza

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 02:57:23 PM »
Thats some great detailed info.  I will give it a try, and practice to get better.

Offline kkmarie

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Re: 1st hand made dough
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2009, 02:13:53 PM »
Hi bbqnpizza,

 I wanted to tell you that I used your recipe for my first hand made pizza. I did add one tablespoon more of water and one tablespoon of honey. It was wonderful! My husband thought it was better than any of the pizza places around here. Actually, so did I.

I used ADY rather than IDY because that is what I had on hand. I added it to the warm water and let it dissolve for about 10 mins. Then I added the salt, honey and about 2/3 of the flour. I mixed it by hand and then let it sit for 20 mins. After 20 mins I added the rest of the flour and the oil. I kneaded the dough by hand for about 15 minutes. It was during that time that I added the other tablespoon of water. I divided the dough in 2  and rolled it into a tight ball. I placed it in a gladware container that I had coated lightly with olive oil and let it sit for 1 hour. I put it in the fridge overnight and used the first dough ball about 12 hours later. I set it out on the counter about 45 minutes before I was ready to use it.

To me, it tasted great. If anything I would add just a tad more water. I can already see why it would be better to weigh all of the ingredients so you get exact numbers.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for giving me a start on creating my own dough.

Kristen