Author Topic: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction  (Read 2700 times)

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Offline timmus

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Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« on: November 14, 2008, 04:37:34 AM »
I'm a big fan of NY pizza, but I'm a beginner and have done a few generic pizza doughs from scratch with a oven and stone over the years.  This weekend I decided to take my pizzamaking to the next level.

A recap of my setup: Pizza stone, 500F oven, good scale, but no hook.  I have 4.4 lbs of Caputo Tipo '00' from PennMac, 5# of Grande mozzarella, and a lot of organic tomato sauce.  I don't need to eat pizza until Saturday, so I'm more than willing to let the dough have 5, 10, 20 hours to rise.

So I'd like a nudge in the right direction for a good dough recipe that works fantastic in a 500F oven.  I see the Lehman's recipe on here a lot... is that really what I should make first, or are there alternatives?  I'm standoffish about it as I saw some comments that it might be kind of caky... I definitely prefer thin rather than thick crust as I'm big on cheese and sauce.

Also I saw in one of the threads that a good trick is to put the pizza stone really low to heat up, then move it to the center when ready to bake.  Is that a good idea or does all the monkeying around let out too much of the heat?

Finally, my wife and I found that instead of messing with peels we can just prepare pizzas on aluminum foil and lift the whole thing and place it on the stone.  We have a peel but 75% of the time the pizza warps or distorts coming off the peel.  Might the aluminum foil trick give us problems?

Tim


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2008, 08:01:12 AM »
TIM,

NY-style is not my forte, but two things occur to me from your post:

1) Caputo "00" is really optimized for much hotter ovens. I have not had good results using it in 500F ovens. A higher-protein flour is usually recommended.

2) One of the benefits of a stone is the interaction of its surface with the moist dough, especially in the first moments of baking before the crust sets up. This is something you lose with aluminum foil or parchment paper. I think everyone ends up with distorted pies until they develop the right technique.

I'm sure others will jump in with more useful advice.

Bill/SFNM 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2008, 08:56:24 AM »
Tim,

If you are interested in making a NY style dough and pizza, I don't recommend using the 00 flour. That flour is better suited for a Neapolitan style dough and pizza. Instead, I would suggest that you use a good bread flour. My favorite brand is the King Arthur bread flour as is sold in many supermarkets. If you can't find the King Arthur brand, I would use another brand, such as Pillsbury bread flour or Better for Bread flour.

There are many NY style dough recipes on the forum. The Lehmann NY style dough recipe is one of the more popular, but there are many others. Contrary to what you have read, a crust made using the basic Lehmann recipe is not "caky". You would need to use a lot of sugar and oil and a rather thick crust to get a "caky" texture. The Lehmann recipe does not use sugar and only a small amount of oil.

In your case, you might want to try the NY style dough formulation given below. It is as basic as one can get. The dough formulation assumes use of bread flour and a pizza size of 14". I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulation. If you want a different size, or you want to make more than one dough ball, you can use the tool to modify the formulation to suit your personal needs. For purposes of using the tool, I used a thickness factor of 0.09 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. The bowl residue compensation is to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. The dough formulation should produce a dough usable after 20 hours of refrigeration.

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (164.25%):
242.72 g  |  8.56 oz | 0.54 lbs
150.49 g  |  5.31 oz | 0.33 lbs
1.21 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
4.25 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
398.66 g | 14.06 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.09135
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Some people like to use some oil in their NY style doughs. The basic Lehmann NY style dough calls for 1% oil. The oil helps produce a slightly more extensible dough (the oil coats the gluten strands) and a good oven rise. A typical dough formulation using oil is this one:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.25%):
241.25 g  |  8.51 oz | 0.53 lbs
149.57 g  |  5.28 oz | 0.33 lbs
1.21 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
4.22 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.41 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
398.66 g | 14.06 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.09135
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Whichever dough formulation you decide to use, you should weigh the flour and water using your scale. For the rest of the ingredients, you can use the volume measurements.

Since you do not have a hook, I assume that means that you plan to knead the dough by hand. If that is the case, then I suggest that you use the general hand kneading steps such as I recently described at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7339.msg63586.html#msg63586. Once the dough has been prepared, I suggest that you follow the further steps starting with Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. This is a post and thread that I routinely recommend newbies read when making a NY style pizza.

As Bill/SFNM has pointed out, there is an interaction between the pizza dough and pizza stone that allows moisture to be drawn out of the dough to produce a crispier bottom crust. However, you can use the aluminum foil method until you master the use of a peel to load pizzas into the oven. One of our members, Jon (Jackitup), routinely uses the aluminum foil method. In Jon's case, he uses his peel to load the pizza on the aluminum foil into the oven and onto the pizza stone. To see photos of this method, see http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x41/Jackitup1/?=view&current=95f76c71.pbw95f76c71.pbw.

As for positioning the stone in the oven, I know that there are a few members who preheat the stone on the lowest oven rack position and then move the stone to a higher rack position. I personally am leery of using such a method. With my luck, I would either drop the stone (and damage my kitchen floor in the process) or burn myself, or all of the above. A NY style pizza will bake just fine with the stone on the lowest oven rack position. In the "newbie" thread referenced above, you will read about many different ways of baking pizzas using a standard home oven and pizza stone.

That's my nudge. Good luck.

Peter






Offline tdeane

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2008, 12:49:16 PM »
I would definitely agree about the 00 flour. It will never brown at 500 degrees. A good bread flour would be much better. I would start by making a poolish which is 50/50 water and flour with a little bit of yeast. I ususally stick it in the fridge overnight and take it out a couple of hours before I make my dough. 7g water, 7g flour with 1/4tsp of IDY makes a mean poolish. Peters dough formula is pretty close to what I use except with the addition of the poolish I would cut the amount of IDY in half to .25%. I usually use around 9% poolish, so about 21-22g of poolish. This will also make your dough a little wetter than 62% but that's fine. I also use more salt than 1.75%. Anwhere from 2.5-3% gives a more flavorful crust IMO but that's personal taste. The poolish(preferment) makes the biggest difference and adds a lot of flavor to your dough. I use a 370g dough ball for a 14" pizza myself.

Offline timmus

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2008, 01:01:51 PM »
Thanks all, this is great help.  I didn't know about the 00 flour issues, so I'll skip it and use it another day.

Also I will make the poolish, but does it have to be in the fridge overnight?  I have to make the pizzas tomorrow, which means preparing the dough this evening, so I've got only 6 hours to let a poolish do its thing.

Tim

Offline tdeane

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2008, 07:55:20 PM »
No it doesn't have to go in the fridge overnight, that's just how I like to do it. Just leave it on the counter until it's nice and bubbly which will probably take 2-3 hours.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2008, 08:56:28 PM »
Tim,

I, too, am a big believer in using preferments like poolish. It is actually quite simple to convert an existing dough formulation to a preferment format. I saw a recent example of this sort of thing at a recent post by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38304#38304. In his case, he used what he calls a "sponge" preferment, which is similar to a poolish. I have edited the post as follows:

A poolish/biga or sponge are all known as pre-ferments. They are used to develop flavor in the finished product..... A simple way to make a sponge dough pizza crust is to use 60% of the flour in the sponge portion, mix this with all of the yeast and half of the weight of the flour as water. Mix this together for about 5-minutes at low or medium speed. Be sure to adjust the water temperature to give you a mixed sponge temperature of 75 to 80F (this means that you will probably need to use 70F water). Transfer the mixed sponge to a suitably sized container and allow it to ferment for 3 to 5-hours (be consistent with the time), then transfer it back to the mixer and add the remainder of the flour, the salt, sugar (if used), fat and water (ice cold). Mix the dough just until it comes smooth, the temperature should be between 80 and 85F. Then take it directly to the bench for scaling and balling, place into dough boxes, wipe with salad oil, cross stack in the cooler for 2.5-hours, then down stack for the night. On the following day, remove about a 3-hour quantity of dough from the cooler and allow it to temper AT room temperature for roughly 90-minutes, then begin using the dough. The dough will remain good to use for up to 3-hours after you begin opening it up into dough skins. Dough that has been left in the cooler will remain good for up to 3-days.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


I have not tried the above sponge method with a Lehmann NY style dough, and I am not suggesting that you should use it for your pizza dough for tomorrow, but I think you can see how easy it is to convert the recipe over to the sponge method. When I applied Tom's math to the first dough formulation I posted earlier today, the hydration of the sponge would be 83.3%. At that level of hydration and with all the formula yeast in the sponge and a 3-5 hour preferment period, I think I would add some sugar to the dough formulation as part of the final mix. High-hydration, high-yeast sponges can be hard on sugar consumption (the sugar extracted from the starch by enzyme performance), so unless some sugar is added to the dough as part of the final mix, you may find that the crust color is too light. 

Peter



« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 08:47:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline BurntEdges

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 10:52:15 AM »
Peter,

Tom's directions indicate "A simple way to make a sponge dough pizza crust is to use 60% of the flour in the sponge portion, mix this with all of the yeast and half of the weight of the flour as water."

I'm unclear about calculating the amount of water to use for the sponge.  What confuses me is "the weight of the flour."   Is he referring to the weight of the flour for the entire dough recipe, or just the weight of the flour used for the sponge.   For example, if the dough recipe called for 100 grams of flour, we would use 60 grams of flour for the sponge.  Now the water for the sponge, should it be 30 grams or 50 grams?  Thanks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 11:10:26 AM »
For example, if the dough recipe called for 100 grams of flour, we would use 60 grams of flour for the sponge.  Now the water for the sponge, should it be 30 grams or 50 grams? 

BurntEdges,

The explanation could have been written a bit more clearly to avoid the type of confusion you experienced, but the answer to your question is 50 grams of water.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 12:57:22 PM »
BurntEdges,

I forgot to mention in my last post that I actually used the Lehmann sponge method, with JerryMac's NY style dough recipe, as discussed and shown at Reply 28 (and related Reply 29) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814.

Peter


Offline BurntEdges

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 02:48:48 PM »
Hi Peter,

Ya' know, as the saying goes, "It's a small world", even in this voluminous forum.  I had contacted you in the early part of last month concerning the very topic/thread you just cited.  I had been looking to convert the Jerry-Mac recipe into a 24 hour cold fermentation dough.  You were quite helpful with your reply & I made that 24 hour version.  However, quite to my surprise, the finished pizza lacked the oven spring and crispiness I was hoping for.  Everyone who had made the original version of that dough was delighted with it, so I either screwed something up or the conversion was not effective.  It did take nearly 6 hours for the poolish to collapse & maybe that was too long.  I have not worked with it further to identify or correct my problem.

However, I want you to know that I have been having great success with several different dough recipes using your "New KitchenAid Dough Making Method" - October 22, 2006-.  (I can't post the links to the topic because I'm a new member).   I have been using a recipe posted by member FVG on January 19, 2008 titled "Caputo 00 Flour in a 500 Degree Oven".  I use your Kitchenaid mixing method to make the dough and have been quite happy with it.  I let it cold ferment for 5 days.  Not being able to leave well enough alone, I've made some changes to this recipe and some of my crusts are coming out too dark (if there is such a thing) in a 525F oven!  When I get it dialed in to my satisfaction, I will post photos and a detailed reply to that thread.  I am somewhat surprised that the above mentioned Caputo thread has not had more activity.  The consensus seems to be that as great as Caputo flour is, it doesn't brown well in lower temperature ovens.  This recipe seems to solve that problem!

Thanks again Peter for the follow-up post.  Par for the course, you are quite thorough.   


 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough - please give me a nudge in the right direction
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 03:35:35 PM »
BurntEdges,

This is the link to the Caputo thread that you referenced: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6120.0.html. Once you get to five posts, you should be able to embed active links into your posts. You are correct, there was little traction with that thread. The "New KitchenAid Dough Making Method" thread is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. Interestingly, I have not yet tried that method with a 00 flour, although it has been on my "to do" list for quite some time. It's good to know, however, that it works with a 00 dough formulation. I have wondered in particular whether it is possible to make, say, a 10+ day cold fermented 00 dough with that method, and what the final pizza would look and taste like. I may have to move the experiment higher up in my "to do" list.

What is behind the improved crust coloration of the crust prepared in accordance with the dough formulation in the above Caputo thread is the use of dried milk powder, vital wheat gluten, and a small amount of bread flour. Both member November and I have mentioned in the past the possible combination of vital wheat gluten and 00 flour, and I did try using dry milk powder, and dried dairy whey as well, because of their lactose content that contributes to crust coloration, but I found that those ingredients sometimes altered the feel and texture of the dough. The textural difference also was present with a 00/bread flour blend but not quite as pronounced. For purists, using the 00 flour with other ingredients might be viewed as heresy, but for those with standard home ovens, it may represent a good way to get some of the benefits of using 00 flour.

Peter


 

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