Author Topic: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?  (Read 14800 times)

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Offline s00da

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Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« on: December 03, 2008, 03:07:24 PM »
Hi,

It seems I'm having difficulties with Pillsbury bread flour for some reason. My problem with it is that it easily tears during stretching the dough ball before bake time. I am starting to think that it contains low quality gluten because I've been using Gold Medal Bread with great results previously.

My dough is as follows(perfect with GM Bread):

Flour: 620g
Water: 400g (64.5%)
Salt: 17.5g (2.82%)
ADY: 3.125g (0.5%)

Into the fridge for 48 hours.
Out of fridge 2 hours before bake time.
To me that makes 4 pies.

I tried using the same with Pillsbury bread but it tears, I tried adjusting the hydration level but that didn't improve it much.

I wanna know if it's really the flour so I just stop trying or if something can be adjusted to get better results. Hydration too high maybe for this flour?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2008, 04:00:39 PM »
s00da,

I happen to have both Pillsbury Best bread flour and General Mills "Better for Bread" flour on hand, and I was able to compare their labels. Labels aren't always the most accurate sources of information because of rounding factors, but purely on the basis of the labels for the two brands of bread flour, the Pillsbury Best bread flour has a protein content of 12.9% (4 grams for a serving size of 30 grams) and the GM Better for Bread flour has a protein content of 13.3% (4 grams for a serving size of 30 grams). Another difference is that The Pillsbury Best bread flour contains ascorbic acid, more commonly known as Vitamin C. Ascorbic acid is a dough conditioner that strengthens the dough so that it better retains the gases of fermentation. Whether these differences account for your different results is hard to say. It would help to know what kinds of grains are used by the two brands, but that kind of information is not generally provided to retail consumers. King Arthur is one of the few distributors that provides that kind of information, albeit not on the labels of their flours.

In your case, you might try reducing the amount of water to a hydration level of 62%. That is more in line with the absorption rate of bread flour. I would tell you that whether you are using the Pillsbury Best bread flour or the GM Better for Bread flour. I usually use lower salt levels than 2.82% but if you like a saltier crust and that level has worked before, I wouldn't change the level for now but consider doing so later if your next results are unsatisfactory. Salt strengthens the gluten structure but too much can have negative effects. In fact, high salt levels (e.g., around 3.9%) are commonly used to make acrobatic dough.

I assume that you do not re-ball or re-knead or re-work the dough balls before shaping and stretching them into skins. I am guessing that you have not done that with either flour since doing so with either flour would lead to the potential for tears in the dough during the shaping and stretching steps.

I hope you will keep us informed of your progress on this matter.

Peter

Offline JConk007

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2008, 04:58:41 PM »
I Just found out one of my favorite local pizzerias uses the Pillsbury flour and produces a great thin crust! far better than the other 9 within a 2 radius! another is opening soon ?? Is there that much margin in a pie? Gotta be in the hydration as pete says.
John
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Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2008, 05:16:05 PM »
Pete,

Thanks a lot for your advice, I will certainly try to lower the hydration and let you know of the results.

JConk, I have suspected hydration first place but were in denial cuz GM worked perfectly before. The answer to your question is yes, it is lots of difference which makes me also believe that the quality of gluten is also better in GM. For instant, I went up to 66.67% hydration with GM without any problems. The dough was so wet that it was literally a flat disk before I stretched ! Seeing that Pillsbury cannot handle a 64.5% with a dough that held its ball shape until I had to punch it down, tells me it's more than hydration really. Nonetheless, as Pete said that reducing the hydration should resolve much of the problem. I believe this compensates for the bad gluten quality if any.

Another thing I noticed about the difference between the two flours is that the GM browns quickly while Pillsbury gets blisters goings before browning and even at the end it's not that much of a brown pie. I got similar bake results when I mixed AP with GM bread flour once. Browning is also a gluten property I believe, so the baking behavior difference must be saying something here about gluten.

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2008, 09:52:26 AM »
Pete,

In response to your suggestion to lower the hydration level...success! I dropped the hydration from the previous 64.5% to 62.5%, the dough remained fairly wet but was much easier to handle and stretch. I guess I will need to treat both flours differently as GM has a higher absorption rate.

Despite the fact that the texture was similar to the GM bread dough, the taste difference was significant I believe. The Pillsbury produced a softer, whiter crust with less bready flavor unlike the GM that browns much quickly and produces a chewier crust. I think I like Pillbury crust now!

I would also like to say thanks for something else. You made a note on the salt level being a litte on the high level so I looked into it. I reported a 17.5g(2.82%) (fine sea salt) on my initial post while I actually used 3.5 tsp as an "approximation" which takes me up to 19.44g(3.14%). Of course this is after your post on the weight-to-volume approximations  ;D

What would you suggest as an ideal salt percentage? and how do you believe that would change the dough? Should I also adjust ADY levels accordingly due to lowered salt levels?

Since I brought up the weight-to-volume approximations issues, I would like to comment on the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator. I noticed that the following values are used in it:

1g ADY = 0.25 tsp
1g IDY = 0.33 tsp

Which seems somehow questionable to me looking at how fine IDY is. For IDY, I was expecting something less than 0.25 tsp for 1g but surprisingly it's even higher than ADY in this calculator. I checked some internet sources and I've never seen such much difference between the two.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 11:08:41 AM »
s00da,

There really isn't an "ideal" level of salt to use in a dough. Different people have different taste preferences and tolerances to salt. High salt levels are also frequently used to control the rate of fermentation of doughs, as is commonly done, for example, for Neapolitan style doughs fermented at room temperature under different temperature conditions at different times of year. In my case, depending on the type of dough I am making, I usually use around 1.5-1.75% salt. I might use the salt on the lower end of the range if the sauce includes salt and the cheeses and toppings have high salt levels. For a good basic article on the use and purpose of salt in doughs, you might want to take a look at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html. When salt levels are intentionally higher than normal, it is usually a good idea to increase the yeast levels, on the assumption that part of the yeast will be harmed by the high salt levels. It is also sometimes recommended that the yeast levels be increased for high levels of sugar also, usually when the sugar levels get above about 5%. In your case, even with lower salt levels, your usage level of ADY looks OK to me. If you find that the dough rises too fast with lower salt levels, you can always lower the amount of ADY for future dough batches using the same dough formulation.

As for the various dough calculating tools, my notes indicate that the tools use 0.10625 ounce for a teaspoon of IDY and 0.13333 ounce for a teaspoon of ADY. My recollection is that the values were determined from actual weighings of SAF ADY and IDY yeasts, not labels or tables like the one I referenced in my last post. In fact, if you look at the information on yeast packets, you will usually see that one packet (0.25 ounce) of either ADY or IDY is 2 1/4 teaspoons. Yeast producers don't want to confuse retail consumers by drawing a distinction. I could have done the same with the tools but chose to retain the distinction purely for technical accuracy reasons. Even the yeast conversion table I referenced isn't linear across all values.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:33:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2008, 12:05:58 PM »
Pete,

As per the salt % you use and after I looked at the link you provided, I was convinced. I personally thought the dough tasted too salty anyways. I went ahead and used 1.75% as it's easier for me in terms of conversion. I made the dough last night and I must say I was surprised at how much a small salt % variation can make all the difference in the world! I was complaining about Pillsbury not being able to handle high hydration...now I it's drawing in more water that I expected. The previous 62.5% resulted in a dry dough now! The dough itself looks and feels so different from all of my previous ones. It's much more elastic and much easier to shape into a ball.

I looked up the internet and found these two link:
https://www.aibonline.org/researchandtechnical/faqs/bread.html
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18953453

In short, I believe that my previous problem was mainly the high salt % and that I needed to knead the dough more in order to get it fully developed. My Total kneading time was 16 mins and I don't think increasing it would be a good idea. Now that the salt % is less, I think I can again try increasing hydration.

Pete, thanks a lot man :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2008, 02:52:54 PM »
s00da,

With experience and research you will generally get to the point where you know typical baker's percents values for different types of doughs. You also get to spot imbalances in ingredients, as where the salt and/or sugar levels are far too high in relation to the amount of yeast, or where the hydration is way out of whack for the type of flour used. Quite often, but not always, correcting the ingredients or rebalancing the ingredients solves the problem. I can usually detect a "home made" dough recipe just from the baker's percents (which I usually have to calculate from the recipes), or from the relative values of baker's percents.

Thanks for the links. I enjoyed reading the items at those links. One thing to keep in mind about the effect of salt on protein is that the effect may be less pronounced for pizza dough than with bread dough because the recommended method for pizza dough is to slightly underknead it, whereas for bread dough you want to fully develop the gluten, which will take a longer knead time to accomplish. Unless you were using the stir speed, sixteen minutes of kneading for about 2 1/4 pounds of dough seems to me to be too long.

As a sidenote to my last post, I want to add that a main reason for the disparity in amounts (percents) of IDY and ADY to use in a given dough formulation is because IDY has a different particle size and a finer particle size than ADY and it also contains fewer dead cells than ADY (I think it is about 30% less). With ADY, you have to penetrate the live cells and get past the dead cells by using warm water. Some time ago, Tom Lehmann wrote a nice article on the different forms of yeast, at Pizza Today. However, Pizza Today recently re-did its website and I could not find the article. However, I managed to find a copy of it at a bread making website and have presented it below for your light reading pleasure:

From Tom Lehmann on Pizza Today:

First, there is compressed yeast, also known as wet yeast (or sometimes brick yeast due to the fact it is commonly sold in one-pound bricks).

Yeast in this form is alive and potentially ready to begin feeding and producing all of those useful byproducts we discussed last month. It only needs to be warmed to a temperature of 50 F or more to get this yeast activated and feeding. This is the reason why the yeast must be kept refrigerated at all times.

This is also the type of yeast for which the old admonishment-never allow the yeast to come into direct contact with either salt or sugar-was developed.

What happens here is if the yeast is allowed to contact salt or sugar, either of the two substances will draw the moisture out of the yeast, thus damaging it to a point where it may lose its fermentative properties. In some instances, the yeast may actually be killed.

For this reason, fresh yeast is best used when making fresh dough on a regular basis. It is also widely used by those manufacturers who produce frozen dough. The reason for this is that the yeast cells will be in excellent condition, provided the yeast has not been temperature abused.

Having the cells in undamaged condition allows the production of the highest quality frozen dough. By high quality, I am referring to frozen dough with a shelf life of 19 weeks or more.

The next type of yeast we commonly see is instant, active, dry yeast, also known as instant yeast (it's often abbreviated to IDY).

This type of yeast is unique in that it is either dried and vacuum packaged, or packaged with an inert gas flush. This is what gives the instant yeast its excellent, long shelf life of one to two years, depending upon the manufacturer.

Have you ever wondered about the word "instant" associated with this product? Instant refers to the rate at which this type of yeast absorbs water. If you could look at each one of those rods of yeast under a microscope, you would see that each one has the characteristics of a sponge: many openings, holes and voids that allow water to readily come into contact with the yeast, thus allowing it to hydrate.

This feature allows the instant yeast to simply be put into dough, along with all the other ingredients, without pre-hydration. The fact the yeast is dry allows it to be used in dry mixes for pizza dough or in goody bags containing salt and sugar. Remember, the yeast is dry so there will be no affect of the salt and sugar on the yeast. Just be careful that you don't try to pre-hydrate a goody bag containing salt, yeast and sugar before adding it to the flour.

The third type of yeast we see commonly used is active dry yeast, or ADY.

Active dry yeast must be hydrated before it can be added to the flour. In pre-hydrating active dry yeast, it is very important that warm water be used. Most manufacturers will specify a temperature between 100-105 F. The ADY is then sprinkled into the water and stirred thoroughly, using a hand whisk or a spoon to suspend the yeast in the water.

After stirring, it is important to wait about 10 minutes. During this time the yeast will hydrate, become active and begin producing byproducts, which we will see as small bubbles of CO2 (or even froth on the surface of the yeast suspension). At this point you know the yeast is fully active and ready to be added to the mix.

It is good to remember that you now have wet yeast, which again should not be allowed to come into direct contact with salt or sugar, but you can put it into the mixer along with your other ingredients and immediately begin mixing.

While we are on the subject of talking about warm water, have you ever wondered why the water must be warm?

When the yeast is dried, the cell membrane shrinks, much like a grape will shrink when it is dried into a raison. In addition to shrinking, small cracks, or fissures, also form on the surface of the yeast cells. If the dry yeast were put into cold water, the yeast would hydrate very slowly, allowing the fissures to open up during the hydration process and allow for a flushing effect upon the yeast cells. When warm water is used, the yeast cells hydrate much more rapidly and allow the cracks and fissures to seal themselves, thus preventing the flushing effect.

Earlier, I had mentioned that compressed yeast is the most commonly used in frozen dough and I explained that fresh yeast generally has yeast cells that are in better condition than dried yeast cells. This is not meant to say that compressed yeast is any better than dried yeast, but the fact remains that when subjected to the drying process, either ADY or IDY will have some of the yeast cells damaged to the point of inactivation by the drying process.

These dead yeast cells can create a problem in a frozen dough system. Through the release of a material called glutathione, which is very similar to L-cysteine (the active ingredients in PZ-44), these dead cells can create a softening effect on the dough, especially as the dough ages under frozen storage. The combined dough softening and potential loss of yeast activity due to freezing is the main reason most frozen dough manufacturers elect to use compressed yeast over dry forms.

It should be kept in mind that if you are a small producer of frozen dough-or operate a commissary producing frozen dough-in all likelihood you may not see any difference in the performance of your frozen dough whether it is made with IDY or fresh compressed yeast.


Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2008, 08:45:37 PM »
Pete,

Sorry that I keep beating up the subject about the difference between ADY and IDY but when it comes to numbers, my brains can't just let go  :P

As you mentioned, IDY is of smaller particles. Therefor, the spacings between them are smaller so it basically utilizes more volume of the tsp than ADY...just like salt. This brings me back to my initial comment on the calculator-used values. Shouldn't a tsp of IDY be heavier than a tsp of ADY?

I derived the following from the calculator:

1 tsp salt = 5.55g
1g salt = 0.18 tsp
——–
1 tsp ADY = 4g
1g ADY = 0.25 tsp
——–
1 tsp IDY = 3g
1g IDY = 0.33 tsp

I believe that IDY is closer to salt in terms of weight-to-volum conversion.   :-\

Saad

Offline November

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2008, 09:07:59 PM »
Therefor, the spacings between them are smaller so it basically utilizes more volume of the tsp than ADY

The notion of smaller particles filling more space compared to larger particles within a fixed volume is an over-generalization.  The mass-volume relationship has more to do with particle geometry and mechanical properties.  It's even possible to have larger particles consume more space within a fixed volume, even when mechanical properties are not taken into consideration.  You can just consider the case of a single solid crystalline particle (crystal) and to that compare what space the same crystalline substance would occupy if it were made into ever smaller particles.  The bulk density of a single crystal is already at its upper limit.

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« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 09:18:35 PM by November »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2008, 09:17:58 PM »
s00da,

Yeast is a highly technical area that I don't pretend to fully understand. However, I thought that the yeast conversion table I mentioned in an earlier post would have answered your question about the relative weights of the two types of yeast. But when I looked back at my earlier posts, I see that I did not provide the link. It is http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm. As you will note from that table, which I understand is one of the best conversion tables of its kind, one teaspoon of IDY weighs a bit less than one teaspoon of ADY. 

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2008, 05:35:54 AM »
red.novemb, you are absolutely correct about this but I believe that it doesn't apply on ADY and IDY considering their particle shape. ADY is clearly spherical particles and that's a lot of volume waste already.

I believe the key is in the microscopic structure of each. ADY has a shell of dead cells that you need to penetrate by dissolving in warm water which gives you a hint on how condensed the outer layer is. Where as IDY would activate instantly due to - probably - a more porous structure on the microscopic level so at the end this compensates for the difference.

Peter, I checked other sources against the table. They all agree on the same fact regardless of the slight differences...it's really a good table btw as it is already saving me time.

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 09:06:28 AM »
Thanks for the links. I enjoyed reading the items at those links. One thing to keep in mind about the effect of salt on protein is that the effect may be less pronounced for pizza dough than with bread dough because the recommended method for pizza dough is to slightly underknead it, whereas for bread dough you want to fully develop the gluten, which will take a longer knead time to accomplish. Unless you were using the stir speed, sixteen minutes of kneading for about 2 1/4 pounds of dough seems to me to be too long.

Pete, isn't a dough being under or over kneaded is ultimately judged by the characteristics of the ending dough? I actually followed http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm as I quote the part related to mixing below:
--------------------------------------------------
Stages of Dough Development

Dough development during mixing is achieved in four stages. First is the blending stage, where ingredients are blended together into a sticky mass in the bottom of the bowl.

Second, as mixing continues, the dough enters the pick-up stage, where gluten structure begins to form. At this point lumpiness disappears and the dough starts to shape into a ball. (Gluten is formed when two types of flour proteins—namely, glutenin and gliadin—combine with each other in the presence of water.) Pizzerias that mix a stiff dough for sheeting into a thin, crackery crust might stop mixing at this point.

Third, if mixing is continued the dough progresses into the clean-up stage, where it becomes dryer and more elastic. It tends to beat the side of the mixing bowl and, as the name implies, starts to clean off the side of the bowl. The dough begins to lose elasticity and becomes more pliable. Stiff dough reaches the clean-up stage sooner than soft dough. This stage is completed when the dough clears away from the bowl.

Fourth is the development stage. The gluten becomes more extensible and the dough takes on a dry, smooth, satiny sheen. Soft dough is typically mixed to what’s called “full development.” When fully developed a small piece of dough about the size of a golf ball can be gently stretched and pulled into a thin, silky, semi-translucent sheet of uniform thickness. Bakers call this a “cleared” dough. To do this with cutter-mixer dough the dough must be allowed to relax for five minutes after mixing. Typically, the stiffer a pizza dough is, the less develop­ment it receives during mixing (i.e., the shorter the mix time). So a stiff dough comes from the mixer “under-developed.” A small piece cannot be stretched into a smooth, thin sheet and, when that’s tried, it will often tear. If greatly under-developed it will show strands and lumps and break easily.

If mixed beyond the development stage, a soft dough starts to lose its elasticity and becomes softer and more extensible. This is called the letdown stage. If mixing continues, the dough completely disinte­grates and becomes wet and stringy.

In addition to developing gluten, mixing incorpo­rates minute bubbles, or air cells, into the dough. The cells are important to dough fermentation and crust structure, as they provide nitrogen for yeast and also serve as the basic cellular network that later will expand into a well-risen crust with proper fermenta­tion (proofing).
--------------------------------------------------

Where would you stop? to have the dough slightly under-kneaded. I couldn't find how would this affect the ending dough.

Saad

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606221443/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:28:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2008, 10:37:37 AM »
Saad,

What John Correll discusses is with respect to a commercial dough made using a commercial mixer. In my home setting, I use a basic home KitchenAid stand mixer with a flat beater and C-hook. Unlike professional pizza operators with commercial mixers, I usually also sift the flour before using in order to improve its hydration in the context of the KitchenAid stand mixer I am using. Using the Correll stages that you reproduced in your last post, and assuming that I am making a standard dough that is not going to be rolled out using a rolling pin, I typically use the flat beater attachment through stage three. Once the dough clears the sides of the mixer bowl and collects around the flat beater, I remove the dough from the flat beater and switch to the C-hook. That takes me to John Correll's stage four. In my case, I knead the dough with the C-hook until the dough is smooth and supple (the dough may have a somewhat curdled cottage cheese outer surface but that usually disappears during the biochemical aspects of fermentation). Because a home stand mixer is not the most efficient kneading machine, I usually use about 30-60 seconds of final hand kneading and shaping the dough into a round ball. Unlike the recommendations of well known writers in the bread dough/pizza field, such as Peter Reinhart, Jeffrey Steingarten and Alton Brown, I do not use the "window-pane" or "gluten window" test. Rather, I follow the teachings of Tom Lehmann as discussed at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3560.msg30582/topicseen.html#msg30582.

In my case, I often skip the test using the egg-sized piece of dough that Tom Lehmann talks about. In his case, Tom is talking about a dough that has been kneaded in a commercial mixer. I don't think that that test works as well with a dough mixed and kneaded in a simple home stand mixer. I raise this distinction so that one doesn't end up overkneading the dough in a home setting trying to achieve the final dough results discussed by Tom Lehmann.

For an additional perspective on this subject, you may want to take a look at the following post by Evelyne Slomon, who is a member of this forum, a pizza operator, and a well known author on pizza (her book is The Pizza Book), at Reply 455 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773.html#msg28773 .

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2008, 11:04:27 AM »
red.novemb, you are absolutely correct about this but I believe that it doesn't apply on ADY and IDY considering their particle shape. ADY is clearly spherical particles and that's a lot of volume waste already.

Saad, I am well aware of the differences between ADY and IDY, including size, geometry, physiology (e.g. respiration, fermentation, pathways, etc.), and baking applications.  I was only addressing your over-generalization about packing or space-filling efficiencies of varying particles sizes, not about ADY versus IDY.  Peter was already addressing that.  Now, post hoc, you mention particle shape, and I don't understand your position any better because of it.  Do you really think the rod shape of IDY is better at randomly packed space filling than a sphere?

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2008, 11:55:47 AM »
Pete,

It seems that the most emphasized point in general is temperature control and I think I'm doing good there as my dough temperature after mixing is always between 76-78. I always make sure the environment temperature is below 79 before I start working and the water is ice cold. The difference that I have is that I go beyond steer speed on the mixer and I think I have yet to experience slower mixing speeds and see how that changes the end result. I never stopped at the curdled cottage cheese texture but will surely try it and see how things change.

November,

I am really not much of an expert in baking in general and certainly not yeast but I hope that my technical background serves me to learn from your great knowledge, that includes Pete, yourself and the rest of the more experienced in this forum  :)

You are absolutely correct that I have over-generalized. Regarding your question; I believe since the diameter of the IDY rod shape is smaller than that of the ADY sphere, then my answer would be yes. If they were to be the same, then we would need to do some math here :)

I was just trying to attribute the difference in mass within the same volume between ADY and IDY and it must be either one of both:
1- Volume utilization affected by geometrical properties.
2- Microscopic structure of the particles.

If I were to depend on my technical sense and base my answer on those two possible reasons, I would say that IDY is yes, "better at randomly packed space filling than a sphere" but then that is compensated due to its more porous microscopic structure. At the end it's just a guess  :P and I wouldn't go as far as proving it since all I needed was a confirmation that the calculator used correct values.

s00da

Offline November

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2008, 01:13:33 PM »
Regarding your question; I believe since the diameter of the IDY rod shape is smaller than that of the ADY sphere, then my answer would be yes. If they were to be the same, then we would need to do some math here :) [...] If I were to depend on my technical sense and base my answer on those two possible reasons, I would say that IDY is yes, "better at randomly packed space filling than a sphere" but then that is compensated due to its more porous microscopic structure.

What we're talking about is packing or volume fraction, and the preliminary math is simple.  Bellow is the orientationally averaged volume exclusion equation for two spherocylinders to do the math if you want.

V = 4/3*pi*D3 + 2*pi*L*D2 + pi/2*D*L2, where D is the diameter and L is the length.

I can tell you that making the diameter smaller does not make rods more efficient for packing.  A smaller diameter just means a larger aspect ratio.  Rods with larger aspect ratios pack less efficiently.  For instance, an aspect ratio of 6 has a randomly packed volume fraction of around 0.55, whereas a sphere's is 0.64.

The problem though with trying to compare ADY and IDY in this fashion is that some ADY comes in the form of small rods as well.  That's why I addressed the over-generalization, not ADY versus IDY.  You are right about the porosity of IDY, but exclusion volumes are not based on fractal properties of structures, so I assume you are referring to density in this case.  I would say that there are probably other things that affect density you're not taking into consideration with respect to ADY versus IDY.  Such differences can be found in dry matter percentage, protein percentage, and additives.  I'm glad all you needed was confirmation though, because there would be a lot to discuss about the differences between ADY and IDY.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2008, 01:38:16 PM »
Saad,

My basic mixing/kneading regimen for a typical dough, for example, a 21-ounce dough, is about 1-2 minutes at stir speed with the flat beater attachment secured, and about 5-6 minutes at speed 2 with the C-hook. Then I might do about 30-60 seconds of final hand kneading and shaping.

When I usually do volume to weight conversions using my digital scale, as I have done hundreds of times with flour and other ingredients (but mostly with flour), my practice is to do a few dozen such conversions and average the values. I may try that sometime with ADY and IDY, but using only a one-teaspoon measuring spoon, to see what results I get. However, as previously mentioned on the forum, there are so many other variables that are involved with yeast, including brand, age, storage conditions, hygroscopicity, measuring spoon type and design, scale accuracy, inclusion of additives like ascorbic acid, etc. Also, most home users tend not to particularly picky in measuring out yeast. They look at the volume measurement values given by the dough calculating tools and try to come as close to those values as they can, rounding out values if necessary, and using whatever measuring spoons they have at their disposal, possibly without leveling off the measuring spoons. I do that myself a lot of the time, although I do level off the measuring spoons and I also have a set of mini-measuring spoons to measure out very small amounts of yeast. I also have a special scale for measuring out small quantities of ingredients like yeast. Most of our members do not have such a scale.

As far as the ADY/IDY dichotomy is concerned, it would seem logical that the relative amounts of ADY and IDY to be used is established to produce similar performance results in a given (or representative) dough formulation used in the same manner.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2008, 02:23:44 PM »
November, wow man if you consider that simple .. but seriously thanks a lot for clearing things up for me!  I guess the only way to pack more IDY is to get them aligned perpendicularly ;) and as you noted, comparing ADY and IDY in this fashion isn't sufficient. Also what Pete is saying is right, it comes down to how each perform and what suits the user's needs.

Pete, can I safely say that since I'm using wet-kneading technique then it's logical that my kneading time will be more than that of the traditional?

Saad

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pillsbury bread flour, good results anyone?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2008, 02:52:30 PM »
Pete, can I safely say that since I'm using wet-kneading technique then it's logical that my kneading time will be more than that of the traditional?

Saad,

I would say yes on the basis that during the wet-knead stage there should not be much development of the gluten.

Peter


 

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