Author Topic: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white  (Read 10666 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51



Pete,

the picture pizza im talking about is the top one on reply #50 from thread

Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza

 see how the crust is more white in color than crispy dark?  My 2.5 hour dough I made (hi-gluten flour, high percentage water, using warm water)  was very fluffy crust and rose pretty well but the bottom of the crust was more a whitish color exactly as shown in respone 50 of that thread.  (im using a blodgett 1000 stone deck). 

How do you suggest I get the crust to be more crispy brown?   




Offline Shotgun682

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2008, 08:24:48 PM »


Pete,

the picture pizza im talking about is the top one on reply #50 from thread

Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza

 see how the crust is more white in color than crispy dark?  My 2.5 hour dough I made (hi-gluten flour, high percentage water, using warm water)  was very fluffy crust and rose pretty well but the bottom of the crust was more a whitish color exactly as shown in respone 50 of that thread.  (im using a blodgett 1000 stone deck). 

How do you suggest I get the crust to be more crispy brown?   




A HOTTER OVEN WILL DO THE TRICK

The white looks like Corn meal or Semolina

Since it was not your picture are you using those?

If so less will give you more browning
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 08:29:39 PM by Shotgun682 »

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2008, 08:28:54 PM »
my oven goes up to 650 i dont think there are very many hotter ovens out there that i know of.


Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 08:29:27 PM »
although i cook on a 1 1/2 inch blodgett stone at 550

Offline Shotgun682

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 08:31:59 PM »
although i cook on a 1 1/2 inch blodgett stone at 550

A 1 1/2 inch stone will take at least an hour of pre heating..Are you pre heating at least that long?

The white in the picture is Corn meal or Semolina

Are You using those?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 10:27:57 PM »
Kevin,

Can you tell me the amounts of ingredients you used to make your pizzas, and also the brand of high-gluten flour you are using? Also, what size pizzas are you making or want to make?

As for the pizza bottom shown in Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg64353.html#msg64353, I agree with Shotgun682 that the "white" color is most likely due to cornmeal or semolina, or possibly white flour that was on the bottom of the skin before baking. Sometimes the bottom of a pizza baked in a deck oven will be lighter than the rim of the pizza if the pizza is baked in a spot that was just used to bake another pizza. Rotation of the pizzas in the oven is the usual solution to this problem (see http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730482). If these are not problems you have encountered with your oven, then there may be a problem with your oven if it is creating too much top heat and too little bottom heat. I am not experienced with commercial deck ovens, so you may want to ask the members at the PMQ Think Tank and/or the members at the Pizza Today Bulletin Board for their advice and opinions.

To get a crispy, chewy NY style crust with good coloration, I would use a high-gluten flour, or even a bread flour, with high hydration (the highest you can accomplish and still be able to readily shape, stretch and toss the skins), and yeast and salt, and no oil or sugar. I would use a thickness factor of about 0.085. In my opinion, the final product will be best from a color, flavor and texture standpoint if the dough has been allowed to ferment for a prolonged period. A typical range of deck oven bake temperatures is about 475 degrees F to 525 degrees F. Often the lower end of that range coupled with using a longer bake time will enhance the crispiness and color of the finished crust, but the dough should preferably be a high hydration dough to keep the crust from becoming cracker like. The chewiness is more attributable to the higher protein content of the high-gluten or bread flour. I think it will be somewhat difficult to get the same results with a 2 1/2-hour room-temperature fermented dough.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:19:26 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2008, 11:55:03 PM »
pete,

why is it that you recommend no oil in this case?

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 12:01:14 AM »
im looking to make both 16" larges and 18 or 20" slice pies.

you guys were right its mostly from semolina and or corn meal i used less and it shows more of the brown.

thanks guys

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 08:20:19 AM »
pete,

why is it that you recommend no oil in this case?

Kevin,

The reason I did not suggest oil is that I thought that you might be trying to emulate the classic NY style pizza that was made by the old NYC pizza masters at places like Lombardi's, John's, Grimaldi's, Totonno's, DiFara's, etc. Their pizzas used only flour (originally all-purpose, then bread flour, and then high-gluten flour), water, yeast (fresh yeast, then dry) and salt. To the best of my knowledge, all of the above places still use only flour, water, yeast and salt. Some call their style the "elite" style. The pizzas were/are thin-crusted pizzas and typically baked in coal-fired ovens, although DiFara's uses a gas-fired Baker's Pride deck oven. The NY "street" style pizzas, as exemplified by the many "Ray's" pizza joints throughout NYC, typically have somewhat thicker crusts and include oil in the doughs.

In your case, you might want to test out doughs with and without oil. If you use oil, you might use 3% so that its presence will be very noticeable in the finished crust and allow you to do a better taste test and texture comparison with a pizza made from a dough with essentially the same dough formulation but without oil. A possible dough formulation for you to use is the NAPICS 2007 NY style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4800.msg40779/topicseen.html#msg40779 (thin, with 3% oil). When I use oil in the NY style, I typically use 1%. Even at that low level, I can usually detect it in the finished crust. The oil produces a slightly softer crumb and adds its own flavor (I usually use a light olive oil, like the Classico brand). If you decide to do some test doughs with and without oil, you might want to test out the finished pizzas on your family and friends, or even neutral parties, to see which is preferred in your neck of the woods.

BTW, which brand of high-gluten flour are you using?

Peter
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:18:32 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline mkc

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 34
  • Location: Texas
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 11:27:02 AM »

The white looks like Corn meal or Semolina


Thanks, Shotgun (and Pete) for helping here.  As the person who posted the photos I can confirm that's semolina.  The pizzas were baked on a well-heated 500 degree stone and the crust was definitely not white and fluffy, as Tekari interpreted.

Michelle


Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 05:15:19 PM »
I currently got flour from a buddy of mine who owns a pizza shop its latina foods brand hi-gluten flour. 

Is there a big difference between hi-gluten flours or are they pretty much the same.

Your right I am trying to go with the classic no oil... do you have a good dough recipe?  How hot are their coal ovens? I only have a blodgett model 1000 double deck gas fired oven each deck has double 60,000 btu burners the thermostat goes up to 650 but right now ive been cooking at 550.

Do you have a dough recipe i could try tommorrow for family and friends that doesn't include oil and one that does? I was gonna wakeup early tommorrow morning at 6am and make dough so i can give it time to rise.

what i really want to do is make 3 different pizzas:

1.) a quick emergency dough 2-3 hour room temperature rise

2.) classic ny style water salt yeast sugar only (let it rise for 12 hours in cooler or whatever the recipe calls for)

3.) same type long rise but with oil


if i can make 3 good batches i was gonna pick from there which i will use to open the shop.

if you have 3 good recipies ill start a new thread make all 3 and post pictures and results i would REALLY appreciate it if you could give me 3 suggestions.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 05:40:14 PM »
Kevin,

I assume that the pizzas you would like to make tomorrow will be for test purposes using home equipment. Is that right? I ask because a dough formulation for home use will often be different than one intended for commercial application. For example, I would use a different hydration for a home version than a commercial version. Also, is there a particular size and number of pizzas you want to make tomorrow, for each type recipe you identified?

High-gluten flours do vary from brand to brand, with some having more protein than others.  I am not familiar with the Latina Foods brand of high-gluten flour, but I will assume that it has a protein content similar to All Trumps, which has a protein content of around 14%.

In the recipe that you numbered 2, you included sugar as one of the ingredients. The classic style does not include sugar. Do you want sugar anyway? As previously mentioned, sugar is generally not recommended for a pizza dough that is to be baked in a deck oven.

To the best of my knowledge, coal-fired ovens can get as high as 800-1000 degrees F. However, it is possible to use a deck oven to make the classic NY style pizzas. You will have to try out different formulations to see which does best in your particular ovens at different oven temperatures. It may well be that any recipe I give you won't be entirely satisfactory for your purposes. Ar some point, you may also want to hire a consultant to help you get your business off of the ground.

Once I hear back from you, I will suggest some test dough formulations for you to try.

Peter

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 05:49:00 PM »
I am using a blodgett 1000 oven.  A hobart 80 qt mixer.. all commercial equipment.  Yes i have been told the flour is around 14%


for number 2 i meant yeast flour salt and water no sugar sorry for confusion.


i  usually cook from 500-550 whatever you recommend ill try i can further play around with it but solid recipies will be a foundation and i can then adjust from there... ill cook a bunch maybe at various temps for all 3 recipies

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 06:01:39 PM »
Kevin,

Is there a particular number and sizes of pizzas you want to make, or, alternatively, a dough batch weight, for each of the three recipes?

Peter

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 06:32:28 PM »
Peter,

Pretty flexible... I am not good with the mathmatics of dough making but Id like about six 16" larges in each batch but I can do more or less if the math works out better. I dont mind wasting a little dough if it makes the amount of ingrediants easier to measure.

I think usually a 16" large is about 13-14 oz of dough ive been trying to make the pizza on the thinner side (thinner than most pictures of pizza ive seen in this forum thusfar) i dont understand your thickness measure but i heard you say yours are .1  i probably want to be more at .85 which is what i think most ny style pizza is but i could be wrong i dont even know what .85 is :)


i have measuring cups etc.. and a scale that weights oz but not a digital scale so hopefully its not like 6.7 oz flour but then again i can always eye it and get pretty close.


Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 07:25:43 PM »
my yeast comes in a big solid block and crumbles up.. is that IDY? ADY or compressed?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 07:47:11 PM »
Kevin,

That is fresh yeast, also called cake or wet or compressed yeast. I will use that form in the dough formulations.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 08:31:51 PM »
Kevin,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the ingredients needed to make six 16" pizzas for each of the three dough formulations referenced earlier (plus a fourth optional dough formulation). The thickness factors I used are noted in the dough formulations presented below. For hydration, I used 58%. That is lower than I would use in a home setting for a high-gluten flour (I would normally use about 63%) but for a commercial setting using a commercial mixer the dough should be easier for workers to slap out into skins. If you find that 58% produces a dough that is too dry, you may have to add additional water until the desired final dough consistency is achieved.

For the cold fermented versions, I would use the general dough preparation and management methods described by Tom Lehmann at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52. For the dough formulations not using oil, you should of course skip the step that applies to incorporating the oil into the dough. The cold ferment dough formulations will all require a water temperature calculated to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F. The emergency dough formulation will require a water temperature calculated to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. If you can tell me what the room temperature is where you plan to make the doughs and the brand of mixer (Hobart?) you will be using, maybe I can tell you the general water temperatures to use. It is important that you achieve the proper finished dough temperatures.

All of the cold ferment dough formulations presented below include an amount of yeast (cake yeast) for winter versions of the doughs. For summer applications, where room temperatures are higher, I would reduce the amount of yeast.

Finally, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That is to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the doughs.

In due course, I suggest that you become familiar with the use of the expanded dough calculating tool. That will allow you to make changes to any dough formulation based on your experiences using the dough formulation. I think you will see from the dough formulations presented below how easy it is to use the expanded dough calculating tool. You don't have to be a math whiz to use it.

For the "classic" NY style without oil, here is a test dough formulation for that application:

"Classic" NY Style Dough Formulation Without Oil
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
Cake Yeast (1.2%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (160.95%):
Single Ball:
1833.28 g  |  64.67 oz | 4.04 lbs
1063.3 g  |  37.51 oz | 2.34 lbs
22 g | 0.78 oz | 0.05 lbs |
32.08 g | 1.13 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.75 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
2950.66 g | 104.08 oz | 6.5 lbs | TF = 0.086275
491.78 g | 17.35 oz | 1.08 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.085; the dough batch is for six 16" pizzas; the water temp. is adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80-85 degrees F; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

For the "classic" dough formulation with oil:

"Classic" NY Style Dough Formulation With Oil
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
Cake Yeast (1.2%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Total (163.95%):
Single Ball:
1799.73 g  |  63.48 oz | 3.97 lbs
1043.84 g  |  36.82 oz | 2.3 lbs
21.6 g | 0.76 oz | 0.05 lbs |
31.5 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.64 tsp | 1.88 tbsp
53.99 g | 1.9 oz | 0.12 lbs | 11.89 tsp | 3.96 tbsp
2950.66 g | 104.08 oz | 6.5 lbs | TF = 0.086275
491.78 g | 17.35 oz | 1.08 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.085; the dough batch is for six 16" pizzas; the water temp. is adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80-85 degrees F; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As an alternative to the above dough formulation, you might also consider the NAPICS 2007 dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4800.msg40779.html#msg40779, as modified along the lines of the other dough formulations as follows:

NAPICS 2007 NY Style Dough Formulation With Oil (Optional)
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
Cake Yeast (1.125%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Total (163.875%):
Single Ball:
1687.14 g  |  59.51 oz | 3.72 lbs
978.54 g  |  34.52 oz | 2.16 lbs
18.98 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs |
29.52 g | 1.04 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
50.61 g | 1.79 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.14 tsp | 3.71 tbsp
2764.8 g | 97.52 oz | 6.1 lbs | TF = 0.0808407
460.8 g | 16.25 oz | 1.02 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.079646; the dough batch is for six 16" pizzas; the water temp. is adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80-85 degrees F; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

For the emergency dough version:

"Emergency" NY Style Dough Formulation Without Oil
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
Cake Yeast (2.4%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (162.15%):
Single Ball:
1819.71 g  |  64.19 oz | 4.01 lbs
1055.43 g  |  37.23 oz | 2.33 lbs
43.67 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs |
31.84 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
2950.66 g | 104.08 oz | 6.5 lbs | TF = 0.086275
491.78 g | 17.35 oz | 1.08 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.085; the amount of dough is for six 16" pizzas; the water temp. is adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 90 degrees F; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Except for water temperatures, I think you are pretty much set. Please keep us posted on your results.

Peter







« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 04:23:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 08:46:52 PM »
Kevin,

Tom Lehmann recently offered the members of the PMQ Think Tank a copy of the dough management procedure he recommends for cold fermented dough. I asked for, and received, such a copy. The procedure is a little bit different than the ones he gave for his NY style dough formulation, but it is still quite close overall. I have copied and pasted the latest dough management procedure below. Keep in mind that if you use cake yeast, it can simply be crumbled on top of the flour.

1. Determine water temperature needed to give a finished (mixed) dough temperature of 80 to 85F. With a room temperature of 70 to 75F, this will typically require a water temperature of 65F using a planetary mixer.
2. Add the water to the mixing bowl.
3. Add salt and sugar (if used) to the water. Do not stir in.
4. Add the flour and then add the yeast.
5. Mix for two minutes in low speed, add the oil and mix for one more minute in low speed.
6. Then mix for 8 to 10 minutes at second (medium) speed or first speed for approximately 15 minutes. The idea is to mix the dough just until it takes on a smooth appearance.
7, Check the finished dough temperature (it should be in the 80 to 85F range).
8. Take the dough directly to the bench for scaling and rounding/balling.
9. The dough should be cut and balled within a 20-minute time period.
10. As soon as the dough is formed into balls, place in plastic dough boxes and wipe the top of the dough balls with salad oil.
11. Immediately take the dough boxes to the cooler and cross stack them.
12. Allow the dough boxes to remain cross stacked in the cooler for 2 hours, then down stack and nest the dough boxes.
13. The dough will be ready to use after 16 hours in the cooler.
14. To use the dough, remove about a 3-hour supply of dough from the cooler, leave it in the covered dough boxes and allow it to temper AT room temperature for 60 to 90-minutes, then begin shaping the dough into pizza skins for immediate use.
15. The dough will remain good to use for up to 3 hours after you first begin using it.
16. Any dough remaining in the cooler will keep for up to 3 days.

Peter
 

Offline Tekari

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 51
Re: Question about getting the bottom of crust more crispy brown that white
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2008, 09:19:24 PM »
I am making the pizza in a colder environment.

Right now I have a huge pizza shop that isn't open so I keep the heat on about 60 degrees.  I make the pizza near the oven where it is warmer. I also let the dough rise at "room temperature" right next to or above the pizza oven where it is warmer when i am making "emergency" dough which is the only dough ive ever made.

So lets use 60 degrees cause that is the temperature by the dough mixer.

Another question... how do i test to make sure the dough is 80-85 degrees? some kind of instant temperature taking tool? ill go buy whatever it is so i have it.