Author Topic: Re: PizzaManic's/Cinnamos Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)  (Read 10587 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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Hi Pete
I hope you are good.

I have just spent the last few days reading carefully tru all four pages of the Pete-zza Papa John's clone thread and even summarizing points to make notes of my own to assist me in duplicating this recipe. I think you have covered each and every aspect as usual (Great Work By The Way) but if you can elaborate on the following facts it would be great.

1) I had a look at those You Tube Vidz. I notice that the surface on which the guys stretch out those pizza's have a lot of flour on it. What is that flour and would I need to use so much when I am making my own at home?

2) That brings me to the next point and that is stretching/tossing the pizza. Those guys are pros and I am sure you are too. I just don't think I would make it to toss it but stretching it doesn't seem so difficult. Would I need to toss and what additional tips can you offer me when I go ahead and stretch the pizza so as to not ruin it or tear it. By the way what happens if it tears, what would i need to do?

3) You mentioned something about the dustinator. Could you elaborate further on what it is and how I would go about using it?

4) I did notice in those videos when those guys are stretching, these is some tool that they pickup and run it over the pizza but it is done very quickly and not for very long. What is that?

Really looking forward to hearing from you and I hope you've enjoyed your Thanks Giving.

Regards
Cinnamos
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 12:06:39 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 08:24:10 AM »
Cinnamos,

Thank you.

In answer to your questions, using your paragraph numbers:

1) and 3) What you see on the work surfaces in the You Tube videos is a blend of flours used by Papa John's in its stores called "Dustinator". I described that blend initially at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, and directly or indirectly in every other post in the same thread in which I set forth and described a dough recipe. The Dustinator blend is simply a blend of semolina, white flour and soybean oil. When I make my Dustinator clone blend, I simply toss some semolina and white flour on my work surface along with a few drops of soybean oil, and work the soybean oil into the mix using my fingers. What you see on my cutting board (work surface) in Reply 2 referenced above is my version of the Dustinator blend. You really don't need a lot of the blend, just enough to thoroughly coat both sides of the skin as the dough ball is opened up just prior to docking, as shown in the You Tube videos. The semolina in the blend gives a bit more flavor to the finished crust, much like cornmeal does but not as gritty.

2) I found that with all of the oil in the doughs, taken together with the water and the warm-up time before using, the doughs were quite extensible. So extensible, in fact, that it would have been difficult to toss the skins after opening them up as shown in the You Tube videos. I simply stretched the skins out to size (14") by hand and placed them on the pizza screen. I did not experience any tears or holes in the skins but if they did occur I would simply pinch the tears or holes shut with my fingers. This is easy to do, and is desirable so that the sauce and melted cheeses don't leak through the holes and cause the pizza to stick to the screen. In the PJ stores, the doughs are supposed to be used fairly cold, around 55 degrees F. But, workers being workers, you can expect that that requirement will not always be observed. I have seen workers work with stone cold dough balls right out of the cooler and with doughs that have sat around for a few hours and were quite gassy (puffy). My PJ clone dough balls were used at temperatures close to my room temperature, which is allways above 55 degrees F. In a future effort, I plan to test use of a dough ball at around 55 degrees F. What I want to see is whether the colder dough will allow me to open up and toss the skin as shown in the videos.

4) The tool that you see in the You Tube videos that the workers run across a partially opened skin is called a dough docker. That tool penetrates the partially opened skin across its entire surface on both sides (but doesn't completely pierce the skin--it's more like a nonpiercing stapling effect) and is mainly used to reduce the likelihood of large bubbles forming in the finished crust during baking. That is a problem that is more likely to occur if the dough skin is cold. To the best of my knowledge, the use of the dough docker by PJ workers is obligatory. I found that I did not really need to use a dough docker but I did test out the use of the docker on several occasions, mainly to be true to the methods used by PJ that I was trying to replicate in my home setting. A photo of my dough docker, which has metal pins, is shown in the second photo in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43961.html#msg43961. My recollection is that the dough dockers used in the PJ stores are made of plastic, with plastic pins. If one does not have a dough docker, the skin can be "docked" using an ordinary kitchen fork, although care should be taken as not to completely pierce the skin. I don't know if dough dockers are commonly available in South Africa, but I think that they are a worthwhile addition to ones pizza tool box. As you can see from http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/doughdockers.html?gclid=CLWwvL7QuJcCFQxKGgod31GfSw, a simple plastic dough docker, which should be entirely suitable for low-volume home use, is quite inexpensive.

I hope that you will let us know how you make out with your PJ clone pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:38:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 10:08:45 AM »
Hi Pete
Thanks for the reply

I never knew about a dough docker. I did see you mention in many of your posts about docking the dough and used to always wonder what it is, but never got down to finding out. In actual fact when i saw the term docking, I always thought it was referring to placing the dough untouched on a counter for a while before use. Thanks for clarifying that fact.

I know im being a bit lazy in this regard, but do u have exact measurements of how much Semolina, Flour and Oil needs to be mixed together to create the dustinator for use on 1 14" Pizza.

I will surely tell you how this pizza comes out and you will be getting a whole different opinion compared to others that have tasted the original Pappa Johns. In my case I haven't so my feedback would come from a totally different angle.

Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 10:56:03 AM »
I know im being a bit lazy in this regard, but do u have exact measurements of how much Semolina, Flour and Oil needs to be mixed together to create the dustinator for use on 1 14" Pizza.


Cinnamos,

In information I received from Papa John's on its various pizzas, the Dustinator is described simply as including Semolina, wheat flour, soybean oil. That means that there is more semolina than wheat flour (white flour), by weight, and that there is more wheat flour than soybean oil, by weight. There is no revelation on actual weights of each. When I make my Dustinator clone, I just eyeball the amounts to use, but I try to keep the color more on the side of the semolina than the white flour, as the PJ information specifies. I would say that about a half fistful of the semolina and a little bit less for the white flour is just about right to coat the dough ball/skin for a 14" pizza. Even then, I usually end up with leftover blend that I simply discard. In a typical PJ store, the Dustinator blend is all over the work surfaces. It gets in workers' clothes, in their pockets, underneath their fingernails, etc. They then drag the stuff into their cars and homes after leaving work.

I hadn't thought to mention it before, but dusting agents in general can be a problem in places like Papa John's where the workers handle a lot of pizza dough. Some of the workers have allergies to corn meal, semolina, flour (or other ingredients in dough), causing respiratory problems or hand rashes. Also, in some cases, dusting agents like flour apparently can wreak havoc with air-conditioning systems. It is quite possible that the Dustinator blend includes oil to reduce the "clouds" of flour dust in the air.

Peter

Edit (5/12/11): For an update on the composition of the Dustinator blend, see Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13725.msg138789.html#msg138789.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 08:33:21 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 11:10:55 AM »
Some of the workers have allergies to corn meal, semolina, flour (or other ingredients in dough), causing respiratory problems or hand rashes.

I don't know what Papa John's human resources' hiring policy is when it concerns prospective employees with food allergies, but it's hard for me to imagine a person with known food allergies getting a job at a food service provider, especially when the specific allergens are the primary food product.  A severe lack of sound judgement would have to be exercised by both the job applicant and human resources for that to happen.  A normal business wouldn't want the health liability, and a normal job applicant wouldn't want to have to be hospitalized while only earning minimum wage.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 11:45:52 AM »
November,

Before the PMQ Think Tank got rid of its old forum, which is no longer archived, I used to read about allergic and other reactions of workers to flour and other dusting agents quite frequently, especially rashes. I don't recall offhand whether the subjects were independent operators or workers at the big chains, but I do recall the forum members, including Tom Lehmann, offering up possible solutions to the rash complaints, including using lotions, frequent hand washing, using gloves, thorough cleanings, etc. I did a quick check today to see if I could find any posts on the subject on the current PMQTT forum, and at the Pizza Today Bulletin Board as well, but could not find anything. There were quite a few posts on the subject on the old PMQTT forum. I think that a lot of the time the people who got rashes didn't know that they had a sensitivity to flour and other ingredients until they got the rashes.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:47:50 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 05:56:32 PM »
Peter,

I can understand an employee finding out they're allergic to something at the workplace after they've been hired, but then that would apply to any workplace, not just pizza joints.  I'm sure there are people who find out they're allergic to copier toner after already being hired in office equipment maintenance.  That's why I spoke in the context of "known food allergies."  I'm sure many food related businesses have the forethought to add the question, "Do you have any allergies?" to their job application.  This would preclude allergens from being the "problem" in the work environment as you framed it.  The "problem" would be with the person not knowing they have an allergy.  It's just a matter of perspective.  I wouldn't call wood at a furniture manufacture a problem either, no matter who was allergic to it.  It's just a reality.

Of course one could say that the allergen is a problem from the perspective of the employee, but then that would be redundant.  :)

- red.november

EDIT: If the business was particularly amiable and wanted to help employees with allergies, I suppose the business could formalize a problem statement that leads to finding ways to help workers deal with their allergies.  I'm just not a big fan of "victim" mentality in the workplace which statements like "I'm allergic to something I work with, so I deserve special attention" conjure up.  It's a free society here in America and an open economy.  I believe people should work where they are comfortable and qualified.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 06:25:15 PM by November »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 05:01:57 PM »
Hi Pete

I meant to ask you this before but it completely slipped my mind.
You mentioned that the dough was placed in a glass pyrex and you drilled a hole into the centre of the lid. I do have a pyrex but my lid is a glass lid, not a plastic lid which I presume you used. I was thinking of using cling wrap. Im not too sure what you guys call cling wrap, but its basically a plastic film. A picture of what I am talking about can be found at. I will make a hole in the centre of the film. Just wanted to check if thats ok or maybe you might some other suggestion.

I know the next question is really petty but I would like to replicate what you have done to the very last detail. What size was the hole you drilled into the lid?

Regarding the Dustinator, I dont have Soy Bean oil at hand but I do have Sunseed oil. Im sure it should work the same. Please advise.

Lastly, you stated that when the dough is removed from the refrigerator, it should be allowed to warm up at room temp. You stated a temp of 80 Degrees F. Must the dough be that Temp or should the room be that temp and if so then what temp should the dough be before it is ready to be Streched out.

I just hope I can contain myself for 5 days once the dough is prepared as I am a very impatient guy but I on the other hand would like to follow each and every step to the T to achieve the best flavour possible.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 05:28:23 PM »
Cinnamos,

If you plan to make a 5-day dough, I don't think that you need worry about the hole in the lid since the gas pressure isn't likely to affect the lid, like popping it off. However, since you asked, the hole in my lid is about 1/8". You can also use plastic wrap and make a small opening in the middle if you'd like, or you can simply use a plastic shower cap with an elasticized band (many hotels in the U.S. give them free to their guests). I use a glass Pyrex bowl because it is transparent (which allows me to visually monitor the progress of the dough), as well as being a good material for dough storage purposes. But you can also use a plastic container or even a metal container.

As for the soybean oil, most soybean oil sold in the U.S. is sold as "vegetable oil", not "soybean" oil. You might check the label on vegetable oils sold where you live in South Africa to see if the oil is soybean oil. If you can't find soybean oil for any reason, you can use sunflower seed oil, canola oil (aka rapeseed oil), or any other cooking oil for that matter. You only need a few dribbles.

When you remove the dough from the refrigerator, you ideally want it to warm up before using, but not necessarily to room temperature since that can be too high, as when it reached around 80 degrees F in my kitchen in the summer. So, you want your dough to warm up AT room temperature, not TO room temperature. The warm-up time will depend on the temperature in your kitchen, and will be shorter in summer and longer in winter. Technically, the dough can be shaped and stretched to size at around 55 degrees F, and I believe that it is that temperature that workers at Papa John's are supposed to use. I haven't used that temperature myself but plan to try it in a future effort.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2008, 04:08:13 PM »
Hi Pete
I have finaly got down to making the dough.
Below are my results so far

Firstly I measured the following ingredients using a scale

Flour
Water
Salt

The rest were measured using my new set of mini spoon measures

My Hand Mixer broke so I borrowed KA Stand Mixer from a friend but they had no dough hook attachments for it. Only a whisk attachment and beater.

Here is the method I used as prescribed by Pete.
1) I added water straight from the tap to the mixer bowl

2) I Added salt and sugar as instructed.

3) Switched mixer on low speed for about a minute to fully disolve salt and sugar. After this step just my accident I decided to check if the salt and sugar were really dissolved and to my surprise it wasn't. It was still thick sitting at the bottom of the water. I used a spoon and stirred together the mixture for about 30 secs till fully dissolved.

4) Then water,salt,sugar mixture sat for few about a minute while i measured out the oil and added it to mixer bowl. I dipped the spoon I used to measure out the oil in, into the water mixure just to make sure all the oil got off and stired the now water,sugar,salt,oil mixture around for about 15 seconds.

5) I then added in about 10-12 Tbsp flour and switched on the machine using the beater attachmend.

6) I gradually added a Tbsp at a time till all the flour was in the mixer boil and had the machine on medium speed for about 3 minutes. At this stage and probably due to the attachment I was using, the dough had all collected around the attachment. I swithced the machine of, removed the dough from the attachment and placed it back in the mixer bowl. Then i switched the machine on again hoping it would knead but again it was all around the attachment. So I had to resort to the one think I wanted to avoid and thats Hand Kneading.

7) In the beginning the dough was very sticky. I hand kneaded for about a minute and at this stage added in the IDY. I then continued hand Kneading for approx 4 minutes. The dough was very sticky, getting caught to my fingures all the time. But after about 2 minutes of the 4 minutes it was easy to handle. At 3 minutes it was sticky but not sticky enough to stick to my fingures so I continued for another minutes and it was done. The dough was very smooth, sticky in the sense that it would stick to your fingers but when you pulled your fingers away from the dough, pieces of the dough would not come with it.

8) I placed it back into the mixer bowl I was using to knead it in while I prepared a Plastic Container which I decided to use. I sprayed it with cooking spray which I beleive you guys call PAM and placed the dough ball inside of it.
***One note is that when i removed it from the mixer bowl in which it was sitting it was as if it got stuck but did not get stuck so it seems the dough was a little on the sticky side but not sticky enough to break apart or attach itself to whatever  surface it touched. Is this anything to be concerned about?

9) I then took cling wrap to cover the container. It was a little difficult as the wrap was slightly smaller than the contained so I had to use multiple pieces. So after the final hand kneading the dough was outside the fridge for approx 10 minutes. I am sure this will not cause any problems but if you feel it would please advise. I did use the trick of placing poppy seeds about 1" apart in the middle of the dough and this would allow me to monitor the rise.
Anyways I just have to now contain myself for 5 days from opening the fridge a gizzillion times to check on it.

Looking forward to hearing your comments.
Now I am on my way to wash my hands. I still have some dough stuck to it. I was really impatient and felt I should reply now as the method I have used it still fresh in my head.

Regards
Cinnamo's


Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2008, 04:12:23 PM »
Hi Again
Im sure u are wondering why I sent both these messages one after the other, but The first message was just typed out and not sent. I saved it on my pc to send later. As I mentioned previously, I would not be able to contain myself from opening the fridge to check on the dough but good thing I did as it is now 5 hours after I placed my dough in the fridge, I noticed that the dough has rose a considerable amount. Cant understand why and how as I would have expected it to only start rising in a few days time. I cant really tell by how much the dough has rose but its quite a considerable amount as it is quite noticable. I did notice that the 2 poppy seeds I placed in the middle of the dough has now moved towards one end of the dough. If I were to give a rough estimate of how much the dough has already rose, I would say, just by looking at it, about double its original size.

One point I wanted to clarify is the way I measure out the IDY. I used a 1/8 of teaspoon as u suggested. I added the first spoon and then u said u measure out half of that and add it in. That should makeup the required yeast amount. I did as told but felt the second spoon was not exactly half but a little less so I took a pinch with my fingers and added it to the dough. I definately did not take much, just a tiny bit to makeup for what I thought would have been less. Do you think I mabe added too much yeast?
Should I be concerned in any way?

I also cant really inspect the dough physically as the cling film that I have used to cover the container is wrapped around about 3 times and it would be a mission to re-cover the container but if I should need to inspect it then I would have no choice but to remove it.

In your last post u mentioned that the hole u drilled in ur container lid was about 1/8 Inch.  Thats quite small to my understanding so I took a fork and used only one spoke of the fork and poked 1 hole tru the center of the cling film. Is this Ok?

Looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2008, 04:36:20 PM »
Cinnamos,

I am not sure which dough recipe you are using. If it is the five-day PJ clone version that I wrote up in Reply 2 at the PJ clone thread, you will note that the water temperature I used was 55 degrees C, not tap water at tap water temperature. At this time of year where I live, tap water is at about 68 degrees F. Using a higher water temperature will definitely cause the dough to rise faster. It will also rise faster if you used too much yeast, whether by accident or otherwise, or if the temperature inside your refrigerator is above about 40 degrees F. The delays incurred during preparation of the dough will also accelerate the fermentation process. If your flour is a weak flour and overly hydrated as a result, that will also speed up the fermentation process. One of the keys to success when you are trying to make a long, cold fermented dough is to use cool or even cold water, use a small amount of yeast, make the dough fast, and get it into the refrigerator as soon as possible.

As far as the dough expansion is concerned, can you tell me the spacing between the poppy seeds? The answer to that question should give me a better idea as to what you can expect going forward.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:41:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2008, 02:42:14 AM »
Hi Pete

I am using the 5 Day Dough Fermentation Recipe.

With regards to the water temp, I think I know what happened there. I measured Out the flour into a seperate bowl and the water into another seperate bowl. Both these with sitting in my kitchen at room temp. I then got busy with something else for the next 20 minutes. When i got back, thats when I added the water to my mixing bowl and continued the rest of the process. I dont have a thermometer to measure the water temp but I am sure it was way over 55 Degrees as it Summer Here in SA. So thats probably one of my problems.

I am sure my fridge temp is way lower than 40 degrees.
I think I definately need to invest in a thermometer.

I used bread flour with a protein level of 12% so I dont think my flour is too weak.

The poppy seeds, after 15 hours in the fridge, is 1.33858 Inches apart (3.4 Cm apart).

From the look of things, this dough aint gonna pull tru to 5 days so maybe I would have to use it in the next day or so or maybe the next few hours.

Please advise me on what to do to resolve this problem. Really disheartened as I was looking forward to following this recipe exactly as u performed it but looks like these small factors are really affecting the final outcome of the pizza. Anyways what better way to learn than by trial and error. Next time I will be sure to correct those factors than I have done incorrectly in this experiment.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2008, 07:35:55 AM »
Cinnamos,

Temperature control is very important to Papa John's in making the doughs for their stores. As of the end of September, 2008, Papa John's had 3317 stores around the world. The only way that they can achieve a high level of quality control at the store level is to make the doughs under tightly controlled conditions, including using temperature and humidity controlled rooms where they make the dough, and monitoring every step and process along the way, from their commissaries where the dough is made to the stores where dough balls are delivered in refrigerated trucks twice a week. Of course, they have the latest and best equipment at their disposal. In a home setting, we can only try to emulate the PJ processes as best we can if we hope to produce a similar end product. This is hard to do without making a modest investment in equipment, including a good digital scale, a reliable mixer to prepare the dough fairly quickly, a refrigerator that will cool the dough balls to around 35-40 degrees F, and a decent thermometer (preferably a digital instant-read model) to use for temperature monitoring and control. If you were making a PJ clone dough for same day use or for one or two day use, you could get away with kneading the dough by hand, as I did, for example, for the Reinhart American style dough described earlier in the PJ clone thread at Reply 71 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672, and you could use just about any water temperature that won't harm the yeast (which means not shocking it with ice cold water or killing or maiming it with hot water). But, for a five- to-eight day cold fermented dough, you need much tighter control over the processes. As I demonstrated in Reply 2 of the PJ clone thread, this is eminently doable. But you have to be organized and on top of everything.

In your case, if the spacing of the poppy seeds was 3.4 cm (1.3286 in.), this means that your dough expanded by almost 235 percent (1.3286 cubed on a simple hand calculator equals 2.35). This assumes that the poppy seeds were placed as close to the center of the original dough ball as possible. If your dough was not thoroughly kneaded (homogeneous), that might have also produced a somewhat erroneous measurement. However, if I had to guess, I would say that the main cause for the overexpansion over the 15-hour period in the refrigerator was an excessively high finished dough temperature. In my home, when I calculate the water temperature needed to achieve a particular finished dough temperature (usually around 75-80 degrees F), I take into account the room temperature, the flour temperature (which is usually the same as the room temperature because I keep the flour at room temperature), and the frictional heat produced by my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. While not a perfect calculation, I use the expression WT = (3 x desired finished dough temperature) - RT - FT - FF to calculate the desired water temperature (WT is the calculated water temperature, RT is the room temperature, FT is the flour temperature, and FF is the friction factor of my mixer, with a value of about 10-12). For that calculation to work, there can be no autolyse or similar rest periods or a lot of delays or lollygagging during preparation of the dough. This is a case where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If you decide to try to make a five-day PJ clone dough again, you may have to use cold water right out of the refrigerator. This will be very important if you do not use a stand mixer. If you use hand kneading at any stage, you may even have to use ice cold water. And you will have to work fast. If you can tell me how you plan to proceed as your dough preparation method next time and the room temperature when you make the next dough batch, maybe I can give you a rough idea as to the water temperature to use. As for your present dough, my best advice is to use it either today or tomorrow. If you followed the recipe correctly, I think you should still get reasonably good results, as I did when I made PJ clone doughs with only a day or two of fermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:43:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2008, 03:40:03 AM »
Hey Pete

I have to say that in these past 2 days I have attained a tremendous amount of knowledge regarding this recipe as well as Pizza Making in general.
You know, just as a matter of interest, I am the type that when I do something I like to do it to the T and as the book says, and in this regard as u say. I get very angry with friends and family when they follow recipes but choose to omit certain steps as they feel it is futile and should not cause a problem and with this experiment, you have just proven that every step is so important that even a simple thing like the water temp is so important. General we know that hot water kills yeast so that's where we are very careful but today I learned that not only can hot water cause harm but water straight from a tap can also cause a lot of harm.

Never the less I always feel that an error is one step closer to perfection, that's obviously if one chooses to correct the error.

Regarding my dough that's still in the fridge (Yes!! I haven't eaten it yet), I have decided to pull it for a 3 day fermentation. I hope to make it tru. Right now after approx 40 Hours, the dough looks like it has tripled its size. I have it in a fairly large container so it is expanding sideways instead of upward. Just a few question when I am ready to roll it out.

1) Do I need to punch the dough down first before I hand Stretch and if so Advise on how I go about punching it down.
2) Its fairly hot here in SA right now maybe about 28-30 Degrees Celcius outside, so how long do u propose I leave the dough at room temp before starting to work with it.



Regarding a thermometer, I have found one here
http://cgi.ebay.com/Kitchen-Digital-Food-Thermometer-Cooking-sensor-Probe_W0QQitemZ370127628314QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item370127628314&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A15|39%3A1|240%3A1318

I know many would advise not to purchase from them as they are Chinese make and don't last but even if it lasts me a year, I don't mind as once I see the necessity of it, I will then invest in something a bit more expensive, but for now this would work.
I need more info about this thermometer but thought I would ask you what Needs to be asked to the seller about this thermometer.
I notice that it can be used in milk so I assume water would be fine.
I also notice that u can set a temp by hand. I am assuming that using that function would allow the therm to notify you it reaches that temp.


Lastly, advise me on the best way to find out what is my room temperature. I am sure once I purchase the therm, there should be a way to do so. Also, I am a bit concerned right now about the temp of my fridge. After you brought it up on ur previous post, I checked a few items in the fridge, and it was not as cold as I would want it to be so I was wondering if there would also be a way for me to measure my fridge temp.

I was thinking of maybe leaving water straight out from the tap in my kitchen for a good few hours and then measure the temp of that water. That would give me an idea of what the room temp it. I was think of doing the same with the fridge, taking water straight out from it and measure. Do you think this trick would work and how accurate would it be. I'm sure you probably will recommend something a bit better.

Lastly I was thinking of what you said in your last post about being prepared and u are 100% right. I was very unprepared. I stalled too many times during the whole process. So the next time I attempt this, I would like to do it the following way.

1) I will measure out my flour into a bowl and leave to stand for a while at room temp while I measure out the rest of the ingredients. By the way my flour is left in the kitchen so it would already be at that temp
2) Measure out the water in a cup and put it in the fridge.
3) Measure out the oil and leave at kitchen temp. Does this need to be at any specific temp.
4) Next is measure out the rest of the ingredients, Yeast, Salt and sugar.
5) Now that I have everything in they required amounts, Its easier to mix everything together at a faster rate than before.

6) Test the temp of the water and once it reaches the desired temp (Need to learn how to use that calculation to see what temp the water needs to be at) I will add it to the mixer bowl.
7) Then I will quickly add salt and sugar and stir with a spoon till fully dissolved. I tried using the KA beater attachment the last time but it didn't dissolve well, so a spoon will work better and faster infact.
8) Then ill add the oil and stir again with the same spoon I used for the oil, for about 20 sec.
9) Add in the flour bit by bit while the mixer is on.
10) Once the dough pulls away from the sides and attaches itself to the beater attachment, I will switch off, remove dough from beater attachment and put on Dough Hook Attachment.
11) I will then switch on for about 2 minutes, and then stop again, add yeast to the wet sticky dough mass.
12) Then switch on again for about 5-6 minutes.
13) After the kneading with the KA Stand Mixer is completed, I will then check the temp at this stage. It should be as per you instruction , between 75-80 degrees F.
14) I will then hand shape the ball for about a minute. I know this is a silly request but could you describe a little further how to hand shape as I don't want to mistakely hand knead it. Also at this stage what should the dough look and feel like
15) Place in my container and refrigerate for 5 days.


I think I more or less covered the entire method.
If I have missed out anything or described any step incorrectly, please correct me

Really looking forward to hearing from you and will post back on Wednesday with results on my current dough that is in the fridge.

Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 11:22:14 AM »
Cinnamos,

On the matter of thermometers, you may want to read the following article to get an idea of the kinds of considerations that come into play when selecting a thermometer: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7524.msg64691.html#new. The types of thermometers discussed in that article are suitable for measuring liquid, flour and dough temperatures. I don't think that you have to spend a lot of money on fancy instruments. As for room and refrigerator temperatures, I use an infrared thermometer, mainly because I have one. However, there are inexpensive room and refrigerator thermometers that can be used for measuring those temperatures. I would just buy a couple of such thermometers and not bother with the alternative methods you proposed. For room temperature, I often just look at the temperature of my room thermostat near my kitchen for a quick read and don't bother using my infrared thermometer. There is no need to measure the temperature of the oil that you use in the dough, whether the oil is stored in the refrigerator, as some people do in warm climates, or, more commonly, in a pantry. There is too little oil used to have a material effect on finished dough temperatures.

One of the things to keep in mind about refrigerator temperatures is that it is hard to control such temperatures and you have to pretty much accept whatever they are from moment to moment. Professionals use commercial coolers that, in many cases, are used only to store dough balls. And workers do not go in and out of the coolers, as we might do with a home refrigerator. Also, in a home refrigerator situation, we add and subtract items all of the time, the effect of which is to increase or decrease the temperature of the refrigerator. My practice is to put stored dough balls toward the back of the refrigerator where it is the coolest and away from the door. Some members use a second, or spare refrigerator in the basement or garage or wherever to store dough balls (along with their beer usually). That is as close as you will come in a home setting to a commercial cooler arrangement. One of the few ways to compensate for a refrigerator temperature that is warmer than desired is to use colder water in making the dough.

As for the dough you now have in the refrigerator, unless it is wet, slack and very gassy (puffy) when you are ready to use it, I would not punch it down or re-knead it. I would let the dough sit at room temperature for about 45 minutes, press it down gently, and shape and stretch to the desired final size (14"). If  you use a thermometer to measure the dough temperature, you could use the dough at a temperature of around 55 degrees F, as I previously mentioned. Of course, either way, you will use your Dustinator clone flour blend as you work with the dough to open it up. If it is clear that the dough is wet, slack and very gassy when time comes to use it, it is possible to punch it down (with your fists or palms) and re-knead it back into the shape of a ball (this will strengthen the gluten structure), but you will then have to let the dough rest for up to a few hours to allow the gluten structure to relax again and allow you to work again with the dough.

The steps you recited in the numbered paragraphs look to be workable. In step 14, it is OK to knead the dough. You should then just shape it into a round ball, oil it, and put on the poppy seeds should you decide to use that method. If you do use the poppy seed method, place the poppy seeds as close to the center of the dough ball as possible. The dough itself should be fairly soft, smooth and malleable (because of all the oil) and maybe a bit tacky. But don't despair or panic if the dough isn't exactly that way. If you followed the rest of the steps correctly, the dough should be fine.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2008, 02:40:27 AM »
Hi Pete
I used that dough yesterday to make my pizza.
I'm so dissapointed at my results that I just don't feel like talking about it.
Never the less its a first try and I've learned a lot for the first time. Next time, it should be better.

Here is how it went.

1) I took the dough out the fridge after 74 hours.
2) When I felt the dough on the top it was quite firm, soft and not sticky, puffy or wet.
3) So now came the first disaster of the evening. Trying to get the dough out the container that I had it in. The bottom of the dough was completely stuck to the container. I tried using several flat utensils to try and lift it off the container but it just wouldn't work. So I had to resort to some violence with the dough. I practically pulled the dough away from the container, leaving some dough behind. So i guess this is what you meant by Gassy, Wet and sticky.
4) So i thought to myself that I have no choice but to knead it again so I started. That was the second disaster for the evening. It just wouldn't knead properly. It kept getting stuck to my fingers. So i threw a little flour over it and kneaded it again. Still didn't help. So I threw more and more. Eventually I may have thrown about half a cup flour if I am not mistaken. Finally got the dough to be less sticky but it didn't look good. Never the less I left it to stand for a while.
5) I then heated my stone and started preparing all my toppings while the dough lay at room temp for about 45 minutes.
6) Third disaster for the evening. The stretching part. It stretched first but when it reached to its desired size, the center of the pizza was extremely thin. Almost like it was going to tear a whole through it. So I did what many would warn me never to do and that's tied the dough up again and stretched again. Again the center was very thin but at this stage my frustration levels were so high I just didn't care any more so I just threw it on a hot stone which was another disaster. I couldn't work with it but I had to. I quickly topped it and pushed it in the oven.
7) And again not too much surprise, yet another disaster. I left it for about 13 minutes on 240 Degrees Celsius. When I checked at 10 minutes, the bottom was just starting to turn brown. So i left it for another 3 minutes. I checked the bottom again and it looked right to me. I quickly took it out and served it for supper.
8) That was one of my worst pizza making experiences ever. Well that's not going to deter me away from creating this pizza again.

The pizza was done mostly in the center but the rim and those areas closer to the rim had this very distinct doughy taste. You could actually see some parts of the pizza was raw. I pinched out some of those parts to see if it was done properly and the dough there was still slightly wet and sticky.
As for the crust, it was extremely hard. Certain parts were crispy but more on the hard crispy side.

Just a few question on my next attempt.

1) Would I experience the problem of the dough getting stuck to my container if I follow ur instructions to the T? This is obviously taking into account the dough rising perfectly and to double its size by the fifth day and not like how it rose to three times its size in the last attempt

2) The stretching part of the pizza was not as easy as I thought it would be. These guys in the You Tube vidz make it look like child's play. What could I have done wrong that would have caused the pizza to be thin in the center and thicker towards the rim? What other advice can you offer when it comes to stretching out the pizza

3) On my next attempt I would like to make the pizza a little smaller. Maybe half the size that it is already at. Could you scale the recipe down for me so I could make a 7" instead of 14" and also would you advise it?

4) Just as a matter of interest, how exactly would you describe an original pappa johns pizza as it gives me a more or less idea of what it should taste like so I know whether I am getting there of still a mile away from the original and even ur clone.

Looking forward to hearing from you .
Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2008, 11:14:42 AM »
Cinnamos,

I am sorry to hear of your unpleasant experience trying to make a PJ clone pizza. I have always considered the PJ clone doughs to be among the easiest doughs to make, so I am at somewhat a loss to diagnose what might have gone wrong in your case. Possibly it is flour related or maybe your dough was overfermented when you started to work with it to make a pizza. For now, I am assuming that the dough was properly kneaded to the desired condition.

You are correct that it is not a good idea to re-knead, re-ball or re-work a dough ball on the bench in preparation for shaping and stretching into a skin. That is generally a bad idea even when the dough is not overfermented and doubly so if overfermented. It also not a good idea to add too much flour to the dough at this stage because the flour is raw (and has not gone through the fermentation process) and will not mix particularly well with the rest of the dough (and it will bake up poorly). Sometimes it is possible to just let the dough relax so that the gluten relaxes enough to allow the dough to be handled again, but this doesn't always work, and it is often futile with an overfermented dough, and when it does work it can take several hours. With an overfermented dough, there is a much higher probability of tears and rips forming in the dough. The thin spots are usually more a sign of inexperience in shaping and stretching the skin. In your case, you also noted the lack of crust coloration after several minutes of baking. That is also a symptom of overfermentation of the dough.

As for ease of removal of the dough from its container, you should lightly oil the storage container before placing the dough ball into the container, as I noted in Reply 2 (and elsewhere) in this thread. Otherwise, the dough will stick to the container and be difficult to remove without mangling. You should also lightly coat the top of the dough ball in the container to prevent a thin "crust" from forming on the exposed outer surface of the dough ball.

As for some advice on shaping and handling, you might consider using a rolling pin and rolling the skin out to about 10" for a 14" skin, and then stretch the skin out the rest of the way to the final desired size (14" in your case). This is a method that Tom Lehmann frequently recommends to new pizza makers, as you will note from a recent post he entered at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#41080.

I personally would stick to the 14" size but it is technically possible to scale the size down to 8" if you'd like even though that may change a lot of other things, including bake time. If you elect to go with a smaller size, I'd prefer that you take the first stab at using the expanded dough calculating tool to do the downsizing. That is the only way you will ever learn how to handle these sorts of things.

From my experience with the authentic PJ pizzas, I would describe the crust as being a medium thickness crust with a soft and tender crumb (because of all the sugar and oil) that is somewhat "pasty" and "doughy" without a lot of "tooth". It will be somewhat on the sweet side, because of all of the sugar in the dough, and there will be good crust coloration, both top and bottom, mainly because of the sugar and the higher protein content of the flour that PJ uses. The oven spring will be good, but not with an especially large rim, and the crumb will have a nice texture because of the long fermentation. The rim will be chewy and the bottom will have some crispness, but not overly so because the pizzas are baked in a conveyor oven not on a stone (and on a pizza screen in my case with my clones).

My advice at this point is to just try again.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:35:07 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Cinnamos' Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2008, 03:00:39 AM »
Hey Pete
Good thing we moved this to a new topic
Its easier to handle now

I am more than certain that the dough which I left over a 3day fermentation definitely over fermented. The bottom of the dough was extremely sticky, wet and started to separate into pieces. This I believe was my main problem.

I did oil my container with cooking spray. Would you advise me to do so with Vegetable oil as maybe cooking spray does not work as well. I however did not oil the top and that's probably why the dough had a tin layer of crust. This was really deceiving to me as when I felt the top it was as if the dough was soft, moist and intact but when I removed it,  it was totally the other way around.

Lastly, I had a look at the post on the pmq forum where tom suggest a different method of rolling the dough out using a rolling pin and then hand stretching the last bit to the desired size. I noticed someone also posted that tom has his own video of how he does this stretching technique on the pizza tv site but I looked for those videos and could not seem to find it. Any suggestions on where I would find these videos of tom himself?

Thanks again for all the assistance
Much appreciated
Regards
Cinnamos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cinnamos' Attempt at Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Split)
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2008, 09:16:51 AM »
Cinnamos,

You should be able to use a cooking spray, but I usually use just plain old vegetable oil, which is also what I have been using to make the PJ clone doughs.

As for rolling out the dough, in my last post, I said:

As for some advice on shaping and handling, you might consider using a rolling pin and rolling the skin out to about 10" for a 14" skin, and then stretch the skin out the rest of the way to the final desired size (14" in your case). This is a method that Tom Lehmann frequently recommends to new pizza makers

I don't see how the "method" as referenced in the above quote differs from what Tom Lehmann said in the post referenced at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#41080. I just personalized the instructions to the size of pizza (14") that you tried to make (2/3 of 14" is 9.33", which I rounded out to 10"). I will leave to you whether you want to follow Tom's advice literally and use 9.33". Tom also describes using a sheeter (dough roller), which is a piece of commercial equipment used by some pizza operators, to do the same thing.

As for the Lehmann video you mentioned, the last time I found it was at http://www.youtube.com/pizzatv. However, I couldn't get the links to open up when I tried this morning. You may have to play around with it to see if you can get it to work, or you may have to do a more general search for the video.

Peter