Author Topic: Trying to get it right  (Read 1655 times)

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Offline Vlap

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Trying to get it right
« on: January 08, 2009, 02:11:49 PM »
I decided to go basic with the crust and start working up from there. I messed up and didn't start the preheat early enough so the over was in the 450 range. This caused me to not get as much color on the bottom as I would have liked.

Dough

Ingredients:
3 1/2 cups flour
2 cup warm water
2 teaspoons yeast
1 tablespoon olive oil
1 tablespoon salt

Sauce

16 oz. Organic Crushed Tomatos
Italian Herbs to taste
Salt and pepper to taste.
Splash of balsamic vinegar.


Toppings.
I had sliced chiorzo.
mozzarella packed in water.(does this add too much moisture to the top?)

 


Offline JConk007

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 02:16:58 PM »
I think you got it, a little hotter on the stone and it should brown up a bit. There are many posts on drying out the fresh mozz a bit before using slice and rest on paper towel etc.. to get some of the moisture out prior to baking
I would eat that for sure!!
John
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 02:25:00 PM »
Vlap,

Two cups of water for 3 1/2 cups of flour (from one of the photos I assume that you used King Arthur bread flour) seems to be very high. Unless you were intentionally making a very high hydration rustic type pizza with a dough hydration of over 90%, I would think that you would have had to use a lot of bench flour. Otherwise, it would be difficult to keep the dough from sticking to the peel. Also, what kind of yeast did you use, and what was the fermentation protocol?

Peter

Offline Vlap

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 02:25:14 PM »
There are many posts on drying out the fresh mozz a bit before using slice and rest on paper towel etc.. to get some of the moisture out prior to baking

Such a simple solution. I should bat myself upside the head for not thinking of it. I will try that tonight. I have half of the dough left over from this pizza last night. I am looking forward to seeing how the flavor develops with an overnight fermentation. Thanks for the input! I tell ya I love this forum and the incredible information it provides.

Offline Vlap

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 02:32:39 PM »
Vlap,

Two cups of water for 3 1/2 cups of flour (from one of the photos I assume that you used King Arthur bread flour) seems to be very high. Unless you were intentionally making a very high hydration rustic type pizza with a dough hydration of over 90%, I would think that you would have had to use a lot of bench flour. Otherwise, it would be difficult to keep the dough from sticking to the peel. Also, what kind of yeast did you use, and what was the fermentation protocol?

Peter

I thought it was high and in the high humidity environment I live in even more so. I had to add probably a cup+ to get the dough to feel right.

I forget the name of the yeast but it was an ADY. I added the yeast to some water and enough flour to make the mixture thick. Covered and let sit 30 min. It got very active I must say.

This recipe was the basic dough from "Pizza: From Its Italian Origins to the Modern Table" by Rosario Buonassisi. I followed it step by step since I felt I had really gone off track with my dough prior to joining here. If I mistyped the recipe it is due to my bad memory. I don't have the book here.

Even working in the pastry industry I never had to check hydration percentages. I kinda get the meaning of it but how do you use it to determine the things you use it to determine? Man I have a lot to relearn and learn anew.

Offline Vlap

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 02:34:07 PM »
Also here is a link to the book I mentioned. I have seen it mentioned here as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Pizza-Italian-Origins-Modern-Table/dp/1552093212/?tag=pizzamaking-20

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 03:50:24 PM »
Even working in the pastry industry I never had to check hydration percentages. I kinda get the meaning of it but how do you use it to determine the things you use it to determine?


Vlap,

There are a couple of ways of looking at hydration.

The first is in relation to the type of flour. All flours have rated absorption values established by the millers that are related to how much water the flours can handle under normal operating conditions. For example, for an all-purpose flour, it might be 60-61% (i.e., the weight of water divided by the weight of the flour equals 60-61%); for bread flour, the rated absorption value might be 62%; for high-gluten flour, it might be 63%; for an imported Italian 00 flour, it might be around 57%. For pastry and cake flours, with which you might be more familiar because of your pastry experience, the hydration values can be much lower, close to 50% or maybe even a bit lower. In actual practice, the hydration value of a given flour might be a few percent higher or lower depending on humidity, room/storage temperature, age and dryness of the flour, etc. Some people will also try to push the envelope and try to get the flour to take on an amount of water that is much higher than the rated values. They typically do this because they want to get a more open and airy crust and crumb. I have seen dough formulations with hydrations of over 90%, a good example of which is the rustic-style dough at http://hollosyt.googlepages.com/quickrusticciabattapizza. Such a dough will be extremely difficult to handle and will ordinarily require one to use parchment paper to get the pizza into the oven (assuming they are able to actually get the dough skin onto the parchment paper). Professional pizza operators will often use less than the rated hydration values. They typically do this because the doughs are less extensible and easier to handle by their pizza makers in making skins to be used to make pizzas. Also, sometimes they use equipment like sheeters/rollers and dough presses that in many cases work better at lower hydration values.

Another way of looking at hydration is in relation to different pizza styles. For example, a New York style dough might have a hydration that is closely related to the hydration value for the flour used. A typical range will be around 60-63%, depending on the type of flour used, or a few percent lower for commercial doughs, as mentioned above. A cracker-style dough might use a hydration value in the 35-45% range, so that the dough is stiff and fairly dry and will produce a cracker type crust rather than a soft and tender one. An American style dough, which also is a soft dough, typically uses a fair amount of oil, for example, 7-8%, so the hydration value may be lower than for other soft doughs because the oil itself imparts a "wetness" to the dough. A Chicago deep-dish dough might also use a lower hydration value, for example, in the mid-40s percent range, because such doughs also commonly use large amounts of oil, or other form of fat, in some cases up to 25-30%. A Neapolitan style dough using 00 flour will typically use about 57% hydration because the 00 flour is a low protein, low gluten flour that cannot usually take on a lot more water without the dough becoming very difficult to handle. In some cases, where the Neapolitan dough is to be baked in a very high temperature oven (above 800 degrees F), hydration levels can often exceed 60% and be as high as 67%. Those levels will be too high for a Neapolitan style dough to be baked in a standard home oven.

With time and experience, you generally develop the knowledge and feel for hydration values along the lines discussed above.

Peter


Offline Vlap

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 03:59:30 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the detailed explanation! I may have to read it several time for the info to sink in. I assume you use the hydration rate to determine how well a certain recipe will work or how to modify it.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 04:07:22 PM »
Vlap,
 
Some of the replies here get can quite involved.

So- Simply stated the hydration % in a recipe is relation of water to flour

If you use 200 Grams of flour (100%) for a 12" dough ball and 100 Grams of water thats 50% hydration
+ the oils and other liquid ingredients for total hydration, and the numerous other multiples that peter has explained in his post. and Yes the hydration is very very important part of the puzzle.

Did you check out the dough calculator tool yet?
Its not as scientific as it looks to make a basic dough, just keep plugging.
John
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 04:10:00 PM by JConk007 »
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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 04:14:12 PM »
I assume you use the hydration rate to determine how well a certain recipe will work or how to modify it.

Yes, that is correct. I often convert all or parts of a dough recipe into baker's percents, starting with the hydration, which gives me an overall view of the recipe. That helps me identify potential flaws in the recipe and also gives me an idea as to whether it will work as is, or will require modification to get it to work better. When I calculated a hydration value for the recipe you used and saw that it was well over 80%, that told me that you were either using a lot of bench flour or else you were trying to make a very high hydration dough as I mentioned in my last post. I pretty much ruled out the very high hydration dough because I knew that you could not dress it on a wooden peel. You would need parchment paper.

Peter


Offline Vlap

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 08:16:52 AM »
JC, no I have not checked out the dough calculator. Where is it?

Peter, Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Now a question I have is: Are all doughs good for overnight ferments? The dough I had for this post I used half and the other half went into a bag overnight and was made into a pizza last night. When I first took it out of the bag I thought it looked bad like it had sat too long but  once cooked it really puffed up and had a much better flavor.

I am definitely trying peter rienhart's recipe next.

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Re: Trying to get it right
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 08:53:17 AM »
Vlap,

There are actually four dough calculating tools, designed for different purposes. They can be accessed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html. You will note that all of the tools require baker's percents, including one for water (hydration). The explanation I gave you on hydration dovetails with the tools since you have to enter a value for it. You can't just toss any number into the tool and expect to get the right answer.

Essentially any type of dough can be designed from an ingredients and temperature standpoint to be used for an overnight fermentation. Usually the amount of yeast that might ordinarily be used to make a dough usable the same day is reduced for an overnight fermentation, along with using cooler water. In your case, assuming about 4 1/2 cups of King Arthur bread flour and one teaspoon of ADY, I estimate that the yeast represents about 0.65% of the weight of the flour. That level should support a day or two of cold fermentation, assuming that the dough goes into the refrigerator right after it has been made. To get more than two or three days, you would have to reduce the amount of yeast (and use cool water). Otherwise, the dough can overferment and/or be overly extensible beyond that point.

The important point to keep in mind is that the amount of yeast and the dough fermentation temperature (which is related to the water temperature and other factors) are the key determinants that dictate the useful life of the dough.

Peter